Should Scotland become an independent nation?

[sweetheart]

Ireland did it and they're an economic dynamo... scotland hasn't
and it is stuck in the doldrums, managed as a land estate from london
without control of its own destiny; getting the 2nd league politicians
who would be laughed out of the westminster parliament.

Consider nearby nations, denmark, norway, finland, all major
economic success stories... and the only reason that scotland is not
up there as well is because it does not have its independence.

[smada]

1. Scotland is working on it

They now have an independent parliament and are building a legislative building in Edinburgh.

[Screaming Lord Byron]

2. an 'independent parliament'?

With less power than a Canadian province, it's not independent.

[smada]

5. It's a step in the right direction

and I see a day, in the not too distant future, where Scotland will be independent.

[Screaming Lord Byron]

6. I don't. The Scots are a pretty apathetic bunch.

There's no fire there, no spark. They're too comfortable where they are.

[sweetheart]

14. you misrepresent the design

The parliament is stillborn, as it has no real power over the issues
that REALLY impact scotland, and it is economics pure and simple.
Scotland is being sucked dry to finance the buildup of london and
the southeast. It has been that way for hundreds of years and has
not changed with the slight devolution of irrelevant powers.

Rather it could also be said that the scottish parliament is there to
demonstrate that scots can't competently rule their own country, so
that the westmninster powers can re-assert their federal control.

Most scots i know are SEVERELY disappointed with the ruse they call
"devolution". THe queen and the royalty still have their country
estates in scotland, and assert the royal control of the highlands
from buckingham, so they'll continue to have a good supply of
cannon fodder regiments and servants down south.

In this very recent time, i've noticed a distinct movement towards
independence, amongst all scots, who finally realize that westminster
represents them not at all, and unless they grab the septre, it will
never be given.

[muriel_volestrangler]

7. Unfortunately the cockups over the legislative building

do not bode well for future Scottish dynamism led by any of the politicians in the parliament.

"three years late, and at a cost of £430.5m, more than 10 times the initial estimate"

http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/hi/news/5029293.html

[ladjf]

3. Most definitely!

[rogerashton]

4. Should the United Colonies become an independent nation?

There is no evidence that they are ready for self-government.

[sweetheart]

15. you state the official position of the US embassy

An i can't help but wonder that the US embassy is against democracy
of the people in every quarter of the globe.

Damn well scotland is ready for self government. It is a very highly
educated and powerful nation when it is freed from the draining force
south of its border.

Even today, there are separate newspapers, media and such for scotland; like if you watch english TV, you'll see the island end
at cumbria, as if scotland does not exist. This creates a mentality
down south (read: england) that scotland is taking care of its own,
when really it is left out, just like on the english weather map.

Edinburgh is the 3rd largest finance capital in europe behind london,
and frankfurt. Many american's have their wealth there. The US
embassy does not believe in taking risks with "their" wealth and
"their" empire.... hence the US official statement that scotland is
incapable of self government.

[rogerashton]

24. Huh?

I asked whether the North American Colonies are ready for self-government. I said there is no evidence that they are. Last time I noticed, though, I don't think Scotland was in North America.

I don't think that the US embassy opposes the independence of the US, either!

But, since you take my joke seriously, let's be serious. My Scottish roots being in the Hebrides, so I favor Hebridean independence from Ediburgh. Edinburgh has a long history of oppressing Highland and Island people, and particularly people of my surname. (A document from the Scottish monarchy in the 1400's says that we are to be "extirpated." In English, to be sure! It took a couple of centuries for this genocidal progam to be carried out, and a few of us survived in other countries). And the one reason you bring forward in support of Scottish independence is Edinburgh's prominence in the international oppression called finance capital! So what reason is there to think that government from Edinburgh would be any less oppressive to the mass of the
Scottish people than government from London?

My sentimental preference is for wider unity rather than disunity. That is why I joked that the United Colonies ought not to have been separated from Britain. Now, it is true that English arrogance has been an obstacle to the kind of unity I favor, in the 1700's as now. Bit of a shame that Napoleon never got an effective navy, I suppose.

[CarolynEC]

8. How about 51st U.S. state?

:)

[D-Notice]

22. Nah.. That the UK in general!

[T_i_B]

9. United we stand, Divided we fall

No I do not think that Scotland would be any better off as an independent nation without the support of the rest of Britain. We are better off as the United Kingdom.

Plus I have the same distaste for the Scottish Nationalists that I have for every other variety of Nationalist for similar reasons. Here's the SNP & Plaid Cymru thread anyway

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=191x33

[RogueTrooper]

10. I agree with you TIB

note: I'm Scottish

I think Scotland is a better place for being part of the Union. There is a reason that Tony Blair made sure that the Scottish Parliament cannot legislate on Abortion law.

[sweetheart]

13. interesting your profile sets you in London

If you are like the many other scots i've met in london, you are down
there in the monsoon because your economic opportunities suck north
of the border, so you've gone south to get a fair shot at economic
equality.

Jack mcconnell is confused about whether the home office is for
all of britain or just england. He runs his own policy on cannabis
which is much stupider than england's; and is basically making a case
for dissolving the scottish fake-parliament, and going back to the
old ways.

The population is falling at an economically-dangerous rate, and
housing and all services are below the standards you enjoy in london.
Your argument would have more beef if you were in scotland.

[RogueTrooper]

29. Nope, I live in London to be near my family

and the industry I now work in is quite unusual. There are only one or two companies in Scotland who do what I do for a living. As those companies are in Dundee, a place I have little love for, I live in London.

You are quite incorrect about one thing: Scotland's social services are of a much higher standard than those of England. And to compare like for like: Two capitals, in this case Edinburgh ( my last place of residence in Scotland ) and London ( my current residence ). Social services were better in Edinburgh. I think you have a case of the McChipOnMyShoulderAboutTheEnglish not uncomming amongst Scots. Something I have always found a little undignified for a nation with such a proud history but it does seem to the rage.

Let me take this opportunity to THANK YOU for treating me like a second class citizen in my own country. How utterly charmles.

[sweetheart]

31. Your welcome

You make the point that economics is indeed a factor. I was only
pointing towards it as a factor, that draws many of the brilliant
scotspeople i've met in london down south. It also explains the
scarcity of those same folks in the highlands making their economics
elsewhere than benefitting up north.

I agree social services are better, but the economy is not based
around them, as they are taxpayer funded, and not revenue generators.
The better social services explain the increasing number of english
retirees north of the border getting free home care.

I'm sorry you feel treated like a second class citizen, it was not
my intention, rather to get your reflection on why youre not in
scotland when everything is so "fine". Myself also, my customers
are not in scotland, but rather england, and on the continent, just
i've decided not to let economics drive where we make our home
anymore. That sort of thinking almost had me in world trade 1 on
9/11, and i've broken with that path, as it was a bad omen to have
a near-miss.

Regarding social services; where would you like to be arrested and
tried for posession of cannabis? Inverness or London. In the
northern city of the two, you will end up in prison and have your
career destroyed, whereas in london, likely your cannabis will be
confiscated and you'll be send away with a slap. It depends which
social services you mention, as to their "quality".

McChipOnMyShoulderAbout... yea yea. I've more in common with
english than the rural SNP spew. You mistake the point... which is
not a concern about english, but rather that a beaten wife cannot
regain her dignity whist the marriage lasts. Its not about making
the husband wrong, but recognizing the opportunity cost of perpetuating a negative relationship.

[Guy_Montag]

32. Employment in Scotland

After working for a couple of years in England, when my contract finished I tried in vain for 6 months to find something in Scotland, before giving up & finding a job south of the border again.

From what I gather Scotland has been in recession for about 5 year most of the electronics companies (my profession) have either shut down or have frozen employment.

On the original subject: You say that Ireland has had excellent growth in the past 10 years, but for decades after independance it was appalingly poor.

Out of interest what do you do Sweetheart?

[sweetheart]

33. Economics in scotland

I am a software engineer turned company director, and am now the
company secretary of a small financial professional services outfit
with customers on the continent and in England.

It is the scottish conundrum, IMO. The country is a magnificent
place, but working out economics to operate locally is a challenge.

Prior to living here full-time, i was the CTO of a london software
company backed by 3i making trading systems, but we were wiped out
in the aftermath of 9/11 where no customers bought jack for 6 months.

Since then, i've been doing more general company management towards
the european customers. Financial advisory around multinational
financial software systems like Oracle financials, SAP and Peoplesoft.

Honestly, i'd rather build a more local business in software, but
the investment climate in scotland is very small thinking, and the
labour resources down south turning contracts in england.

I first visited scotland when "locate in scotland" contacted my
business in New York City and asked if we would consider relocating
there. I came and visited with them in Glasgow and was unimpressed
with what they were suggesting, except i found the country absolutely
beautiful and the people outstanding.

They were calling their offering "high tech", but what they were
really doing was getting big factories to employ lotsa medium tech
factory skills... not really design, but manufacturing... and in
software, at the time, i remember noting that not a single finanancial
software company of any significance ran from scotland.

There are a coupla firms these days down edinburgh way nowadays.

I'm living on a highland croft west of thurso, where the crofting
economy is "poor", so people work a trade job to make ends meet, and
not being a tradesperson meself, i've either to get my writing
fingers completing the unfinished books on the hard disk. Like a
cofter, since i've been here, i've pluralized me economics towards
home construction, scottie dog breeding and writing as well as
business management.

I wish all scotspeople had the advantages i've experienced for
business success in silicon valley and new york. Certainly there are
disadvantages.. unsaid, but scots are very entrepreneurial people
somehow held back by a shadenfreude culture.

The only jobs in this region are state subsidized, like teachers,
NHS, Dounreay (nuclear power plant decommissioning), miltiary and
farming. The culture of state provided jobs, is in conflict with
people creating a dynamic business themselves, and they suck up all
the entrepreneurial oxygen.

Methinks were the english subsidy cut, the economy would flourish
as people created more of their own jobs/businesses. It might be
a tough transition, but methinks it would be faster than that.

[sweetheart]

12. I don't mean the SNP... its unfortunate..

It does appear that the historical linkages undermine scottish
devlopment.

I frankly find that scottish nationalism is a much broader opinion
than simply the SNP and its right wing adgenda. If the SNP converged
with the Libdems, they'd be in power in scotland. It is why i
discuss the issue outside the SNP party.

Why do you think scotland needs to be mollycoddled when other
nations "unconquored" have been doing better, and with ireland as
an example as well?

Scottish independence, is rather a demand for self determination to
make the laws that scotland needs, not getting second hand stuff from
south england.

Fact: incomes are 1k lower for every 10 miles you go from london. In
north scotland, a job paying 100K in london, pays 30K. Yet costs of
living are actually higher like petrol and such... and yet the taxes
are taken and invested disproportionately against scotlands better
interests economically.. yet without the ability to control its own
economic destiny, the economy is doing poorest amongst the regions.

[T_i_B]

20. The SNP cannot be seperated...

...from the cause of Scottish independence. The SNP was set up to fight for that very cause.

And also, the SNP does have progressive views on some issues but at its heart it is nationalist. The cause of Scottish independence is inevitably a nationalist cause, it cannot be seperated from Scottish nationalism and I tend to dislike nationalism in any form.

And yes, Scotland does benefit from tax money from the rest of the UK. Come to think of it we all benefit on this small island when we are all pulling in the same direction and working towards each others mutual benefit.

[sweetheart]

21. That mutual benefit

The mutual benefit is a good tale to tell down south. The southeast
gets much more money and focus from government than scotland, and
what passes for mutual benefit south of the border is not quite so
in the north.

I think this is as true for scotland, as the north english regions
where the people are presumed to be better off focusing on london than
their own homes.

Scotland would have twice the economy of today were she separate, and
its own home office and immigration policies that are in stark contrast to the english concern of being flooded... quite the opposite, immigrants please come.

When you move north of the border for a new job, i'll believe that
it is mutual benefit. English move north of the border to get away
from the negative aspects of new-britain, where they can retire
and get home care without losing their homes... whilst this region
has lost most of its working age youth to the south where there is
work.

When wages are the same across britain, i'll believe the mutual benefit story. As it stands, it is still mostly english benefit and
the balance of payments is a ruse to pretend that its mutual.

Alex Salmond could really do the trick if he's smart with his
approach. Truly, economic management is horrendous north of the
border, and it is of no concern to westminster or anyone, as nobody
is responsible.

[D-Notice]

11. I think

They shuold just have a referendum & get it over with.

Same with Wales & anyone else who wants to leave.

Freedom for England! ;-)

[rogerashton]

25. Hm. Russia seceded from the Soviet Union.

England might well secede from the UK if England had a separate Parliament.

[Screaming Lord Byron]

16. If you don't want Scotland + Wales, we could use a couple extra provinces

After all, we've already got New Scotland.

[muriel_volestrangler]

17. only if you take Northern Ireland off our hands too

they come as a job lot. General de Chastelain has done as good a job as anyone there - I'm sure a whole country of Canadians would find it a doddle ;-)

[Screaming Lord Byron]

18. Aw. Do we have to?

We already have sepratist hotbeds in Quebec and Alberta. Adding three more might cause an enormous implosion. Then there'd be nothing to stop the Americans from walking over the big Canada-shaped crater and taking Greenland.
(OFFICER'S VOICE - Stop that, that's silly)

[sweetheart]

19. Yes, you have to take the unionists

You might be able to dump NI off to ireland, and make republicans
happy... but you'll have to take ian paisley and his lot of nutters
over to canada when Ireland becomes a unified island.

Perhaps you can settle them in quebec, heck, no one will notice that
more nutters have arrived... ;-)

Don't mind being part of canada... sounds fine.. at least they
would be more economically empowering than the london-crowd.

[rogerashton]

26. I seem to recall seeing an "Orange Lodge"

right on main street in just about every small town in Ontario.

So, why should Northern Ireland be a problem?

[D-Notice]

23. What's the deal with Alberta?

[rogerashton]

27. Same as Scotland.

They have oil.

[Screaming Lord Byron]

28. Worse. A strong right-wing with strong ties to the US right.

Plus a vocal community of religious fundamentalists. Come to think about it, my province is basically Cold Texas.

[Screaming Lord Byron]

30. What the Scots need more than anything is a renaissance.

They need to shift that huge weight of history and old emnities of their shoulders. They need to wake up from their apathy and remake their nation as a modern entity. They need their equivalent of Quebec's Quiet Revolution. That's what they need more than anything. What that renaissance will be, I have no idea, but clearly Scotland today is stagnating. I have no idea whether or not Independence will allow that, and I am glad it is no longer my place to argue that point.