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lostnfound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-09-05 12:45 AM
Original message
So half of you guessed that at least half of the Dems in congress..
are "fairly sure" that Bush stole the '04 election. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x321439

If so, why aren't they speaking out?

1)they know they would be crucified in the media?
2)they don't want to throw away their careers?
3)some of them are dirty too?
4)they are waiting for a better moment?
5)they aren't sure who can be trusted among their colleagues?
6)other?

If you really believe that more than half think that Bush stole the election, yet aren't doing or saying much about it, what is the appropriate response? Is there anything that can be achieved by pushing them on the issue -- not just on future voting methods, but on getting to the truth about the '04 election?

Someone once posted that this forum is the closest thing to a think tank for studying the election fraud. The idea that most of you who are here think that our Dems KNOW what is going on (in their hearts, even if they can't prove it), but aren't saying so, would seem to point to some action but I'm not sure what.

Maybe a parade of DUers in the offices of our elected reps, to reiterate our opinion about the stolen election and to ask why aren't they joining forces with the other Dems to call Bush out on his fraud? Or to ask how they suggest grassroots group can help?

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davidgmills Donating Member (651 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-09-05 07:37 AM
Response to Original message
1. Cognitive dissonance
Edited on Wed Feb-09-05 07:38 AM by davidgmills
Ever since the war we on the left have been complaining about the cognitive dissonance of the right.

Unfortunately, I am coming to the conclusion that regarding this computer generated election coup, our cognitive dissonance is far worse than theirs.
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hootinholler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-09-05 08:06 AM
Response to Original message
2. The same unknown reason they weren't speaking out before the election.
I wish I knew what it is. Then I'd have some hope of fixing it. This election should have been a slam dunk, but, it wasn't.

The Dems didn't stand up for Justice, national reputation, Civil Rights, and on and on...

WHY?

A few under intense pressure from US, did, but what is holding them in thier seats?

-Hoot
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-09-05 08:42 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. Ya got me, too. I've thought and thought about. I don't...
...understand how the Dem leadership--whose JOB it is to get votes, right?--didn't scream bloody murder about Diebold and ES&S, and warn voters, and make it a campaign issue.

How could they not have known? And if they knew, how could they not have warned us?

Then, they just walked away from it. Amazing!

I think it's a mix of corruption and fear. The corruption is partly electronic voting machine corruption, and also, I think, too many of the Dem leadership actually approves of the war on Iraq, but would just as soon Bush take the rap for all the deaths and chaos. They did not intend to win--and when the grass roots forced the issue and obtained a 57% to 41% advantage in voter registration--an incredible feat in the face of BushCon money and vote suppression--and all the other great things we did, they had to look like they were trying to win. I think this is true of some of them, not all.

Fear:

I've also heard that most everyone in DC figured that Paul Wellstone was assassinated. Do you know that there was never any kind of hearing--not any kind of hearing at all--regarding his plane crash--the plane crash of a US Senator--and one with a number of suspicious circumstances? Figure that out.

So, imagine the fear running rampant around DC. I think we underestimate it. I saw a videoed Dennis Kucinich speech before the election in which he talked about the "Homeland Security" atmosphere all Congress critters live and work in, all day long.

You'd think they'd want to find out why DC and the Pentagon had no air cover on 9/11.

No curiosity, it seems. Or rather, they cannot afford to display curiosity, acting in the public interest--or think they cannot afford it?

I do think, though, that we are bucking them up. We've gone from 1 Senator (Jan. 6) to 13 Senators (Jan. 26) to 36 Senators (Feb. 3) casting anti-Bush votes--and votes that were hated and reviled by the Bush regime. (The Ohio vote, the Condaleeza Rice vote, the Alberto Gonzales vote.)

I think the Dem leadership is living to regret how they have behaved. I listened quite carefully to the speeches in Congress on all three occasions, and what you hear is more and more passion and commitment to principles, with each set of speeches. I was quite impressed, all in all. And I think we've done something to let them know that they represent the MAJORITY, even though they have only minority power.

But the fight for our right to vote isn't a Congressional fight. They just don't have the votes--or the will, it seems--to set things right. We have to do that ourselves, state by state. The BushCons certainly know this--that's why they're trying to destroy Kevin Shelley in CA, and corrupt CA elections. But there are also Dems involved in that assault on the one of the few honest public officials in the nation--ones with dirty Diebold connections, it appears. Ah, me. (Shelley, CA's Sec of State, decertified and sued Diebold, and led the nationwide fight against this lying, fraudster company.)

But you see what they can do to people of integrity. Fear. That's a lot of it.
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hootinholler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-09-05 09:28 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. But it's deeper than just the election...
Don't get me wrong, fixing elections is crucial, but, this phenom. is broader than that.

We have Sibel Edmonds, who's secret testimony scared the crap outta some people and her case was dismissed, not redacted, or testimony limited, but DISMISSED altogether for national security reasons. That is nearly precedent setting.

We have the various Patriot Acts, the consolodation of Intel, Homeland Security. All of these can be explained by mass hysteria? Possible, but, I would think that if you and I see through these, wouldn't some in congress also?

The equation doesn't balance, which means we are missing one or more variables.

-Hoot

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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-09-05 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. I think you are correct:
"The equation doesn't balance, which means we are missing one or more variables."

It's very frustrating.
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understandinglife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-09-05 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #4
17. Hoot, I think the 'variable we are missing' in the Democracy equation is..
Edited on Wed Feb-09-05 04:01 PM by understandinglife
....US.

Most of our fellow citizens have forgotten that "We The People....." is not an abstraction -- it is literally every stinking one of us, doing the 'forming a perfect union' task, every frigging day. (see note below)

That is why I am so enthusiastic about your "What Will Your Legacy Be?" endeavor -- it places the focus exactly where it belongs, on Each Of Us.

Peace.


TBO;24/7
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lostnfound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-09-05 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. Great post.
I think you are hitting the right spots.

"I was quite impressed, all in all. And I think we've done something to let them know that they represent the MAJORITY, even though they have only minority power. "

We do need to keep backing them up and encouraging them when they do the right thing and letting them know that we expect them to do the right things. That's in keeping with the idea that 'Sometimes people live up to your expectations'.

After the vote in the judiciary committee where all 8 of the Dems voted against the Gonzalez nomination, I heard it mentioned on Randi Rhodes, and then she said 'we have a little something here to give to those Dems today' and she played a clip of Bette Midler singing 'did you ever know that you were my hero...' I thought to myself, how great that must feel if any of them heard that.

And I also thought to myself, how great it feels to feel this way, grateful towards a group of people who banded together to do the right thing, to do something that none of us is in a position to do.

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Zan_of_Texas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-09-05 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #3
9. Fear. and Corruption.
Plus, their real constituents are the money bags from corporations, and the ultra-wealthy. That's who they see all day long, the lobbyists, and the big donors. We are not their real constituents.

But, fear cannot be underestimated.

If you figure that over the past few years, there were roughly 50 Democratic Senators, and four of them faced possible death or actually died violently, that's pretty scary.

Mel Carnahan - started leading in the polls to become a MO Senator, and died in a plane crash just before the election.

Paul Wellstone -- started leading in the polls to return as a MN Senator, and died in a plane crash just before the election.

Daschle -- Senator Majority Leader, got an anthrax letter sent to him after 9-11. No one has been prosecuted, even though the anthrax was the strain only made in US labs.

Leahy -- Senate Judiciary chair, or ranking member, got an anthrax letter sent to him after 9-11. No one has been prosecuted, even though the anthrax was the strain only made in US labs.

(Dan Rather got one sent to him too.....)

And, the sniper who terrorized Washington, D.C. -- remember that? -- did so right as the Congress was preparing to vote Bush powers to attack Iraq.

Congresspeople got this mysterious warning, which the media duly noted and buried.


U.S. senators warned of al Qaeda snipers on golf courses

Friday, October 18, 2002 Posted: 9:19 PM EDT

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- U.S. senators were warned earlier this week that those who play golf may be targets of al Qaeda snipers on golf courses and were given tips on how to protect themselves, a U.S. Capitol Police spokeswoman said.

Police were notified about the potential threat to senators, said Marcia Krug, a Capitol Police spokeswoman. She would not say which agency notified the Capitol Police or when exactly they were told. But she said her department, in turn, notified the sergeant-at-arms, who then notified the senators that al Qaeda snipers might be looming near golf courses, ready to pick them off. The sergeant-at-arms, who is in charge of lawmakers' security, did suggest precautions the senators should take, Krug said. She would not elaborate.

The threat information was passed as a sniper, who has killed nine people and wounded two others in the Washington area, remains at large. Authorities investigating that case have said there is no evidence suggesting that a sniper working for a terrorist group is behind the shootings. Meanwhile, FBI agents have been questioning an al Qaeda suspect being held in Belgium who bragged to his interrogators that he had witnessed al Qaeda training for snipers, European intelligence sources said Friday. The FBI, one of many agencies involved in the Washington-area sniper shooting investigation, refused to confirm or deny it had sent agents to Brussels.

Nizar Trabelsi has been in custody since two days after the September 11 terror attacks in the United States, accused of plotting a suicide bombing of the U.S. Embassy in Paris. Trabelsi, who confessed to the plot in December, is interrogated regularly. FBI investigators have interviewed Trabelsi within the last two or three days, the European intelligence sources told CNN. The sources said Trabelsi told investigators of a plan in which snipers would attack American senators on a golf course, and described how fighters were trained to shoot targets from up to 250 meters (820 feet) and shoot from the back of pickup trucks. Belgian investigators reacted skeptically to any suggestion of a link with the D.C.-area shootings that began October 2, noting the suspect has had access to newspaper and TV accounts of the spree. In addition, they said, disinformation is a key al Qaeda tactic. As a member of the north African Salafist terrorist group, affiliated with al Qaeda, Trabelsi embraces the doctrine of continuing the jihad struggle by deception of the enemy. Belgian investigators say his interrogations have been consistent with this doctrine. Investigators have recently been questioning Guantanamo Bay detainees about snipers, but Trabelsi was not subject to this. Belgian sources tell CNN he volunteered the topic of his own accord.

http://www.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/10/18/alqaeda.snipers.senators/
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Chi Donating Member (921 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-09-05 06:23 PM
Response to Reply #3
23. 'NTSB continues Wellstone crash probe'
No offense, but it appears it was investigated.

"WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Federal investigators plan to begin using a flight simulator next week to possibly learn why the plane carrying Sen. Paul Wellstone and seven others crashed October 25, a National Transportation Safety Board statement said Tuesday. "

http://archives.cnn.com/2002/US/Midwest/12/17/ntsb.wellstone.crash/
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Chi Donating Member (921 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-09-05 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #3
24. Sorry...you said hearing...
My brain heard investigation.
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emcguffie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-09-05 09:43 AM
Response to Original message
5. I fully intend to go to my reps --
And camp in their office until they hear me out on this. But first I have to get the perfect packet together. And some time off work.

I don't really know what else to do, to find out what is going on. Seems like real confrontation might at least provide some enlightenment as to what is going on in their heads.
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Zan_of_Texas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-09-05 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. take them a copy of Mythbreakers.
Anyone planning to visit an election official or elected (or is that "elected" official?) should take 'em one.

Anyone planning to have any discussions with decisionmakers should read it.

Yeah, it's long. So, read it in two sittings.

Ellen Theisen:
"Myth Breakers: Facts about Electronic Elections.
Essential Information for Those Entrusted with Making
Decisions about Election Systems in the United States,"

Second Edition, January 2005
http://www.VotersUnite.org/MB2.pdf
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Zan_of_Texas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-09-05 12:40 PM
Response to Original message
10. A few comments by Gandhi.

GANDHI ON NON-VIOLENT GOVERNMENT
The science of war leads one to dictatorship, pure and simple. The science of non-violence alone can lead one to pure democracy...The states that are today nominally democratic have either to become frankly totalitarian or, if they are to become truly democratic, they must become courageously non-violent. Power is of two kinds. One is obtained by fear of punishment and the other by arts of love. Power based on love is thousand times more effective and permanent than power derived from fear of punishment....


GANDHI ON NON-VIOLENT ECONOMICS
Economic equality is the master key to non-violent independence...A non-violent system of government is impossible as long as the wide gulf between the rich and the hungry millions persists....

QUOTES FROM M.K. GANDHI
http://www.carolmoore.net/articles/gandhi-quotes.html
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JoMama49 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-09-05 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. I just got a letter yesterday from Diney Finey about the
election. Her first line was "Thank you for writing to me about voter confidence in elections" That was in response to my telling her I would never vote again without a paper receipt. Then she goes on to talk about some Senate bills that have been introduced requiring voting machines to produce a paper record. Then, she goes into HAVA and how it became law on 12/29/02. How they created a new federal Electyions Assistance Commission to ensure all voting technologies are tested for accuracy and to provide procedures for decertification of a technology that is subsequently found to be inadequate. This Commission is also responsible for distributing federal grants to state electorates for improvement of their electoral processes. States still maintain control over election administration, but the law introduces a degree of federal oversight and assistance.

Now I'm wondering if this is a new front for the election reform fight. Shall we bombard this commission with evidence of fraud, paperless machines, black boxes, etc. What do you all think?
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lostnfound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-09-05 10:04 PM
Response to Reply #11
25. Yes, we need to learn all we can about the EAC.
Seems likely it was set up so that they can have a bulwark, a centralized federal function to control elections, and prevent activists from making inroads at the state level.
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KingoftheJungle Donating Member (355 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-09-05 10:10 PM
Response to Reply #10
26. COMMIE BASTARD!!! But seriouslly...
Actually I totally agree with him. Money is our culture's form of energy, which is what power is. Energy is the potential to create change. Change of ownership, change of status, change to both build and destroy, etc. Money is power.

Democracy is power to the people. But real power is in who has the money. Therefore, a true democracy has money as evenly divided amongst its populace as possible. So simple, yet so lost on the people of America, who have had a century of anti-socialist propaganda forced down their throats by the fascists in charge. Its quite a sad state of affairs. That's why I'm planning to move to Germany. I hear they have hot babes there too!
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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-09-05 03:02 PM
Response to Original message
12. What individuals believe and what is politically possible are two
different things. As an example, I would point to the Dems actions and speeches during and after the run up to the war in Iraq.

While it was plain to me that the vast majority of the war premise was bogus, the Dems mostly kept quiet. When Howard Dean dared to speak out continuosly about how bogus the war, suddenly a lot of Dems are asking a lot more questions and are themselves actually critcising the premise and the conduct of the war.

Did Dean change their minds, or did Dean give them the political cover (courage) to speak their minds? I think the latter.

It is my beleif that on a gut level most Americans, elected officials included, know the elections processes and safeguards, in many locations, are broken. By that I mean they are routinly compromised in one way or another or in a number of ways. People know dead voters are voting, computers counting votes can be rigged, elections are often run by people with glaring conflicts of interests, election resources are sometimes allocated in such a way as to manipulate the vote, and that race and class play a vital part in whether you get to vote and the likely hood that your vote will be counted.

The political courage required to think about, much less speak out, about these issues is obviously of a magnitute that is greater than naturally possessed by most of the American electorate and thier elected officials at this time.

I guess it is our job to embolden our country women and men to thought and action.
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understandinglife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-09-05 03:39 PM
Response to Original message
13. Saying "We The People..." and Being "We The People..." are very different.
Our 'leaders' are US.

We allowed 2 Nov 2004 to prevail.

We allowed Ms Plame to be 'outed' without punishment.

We allowed Iraq to be attacked.

We allowed Our Government to get away with torture; to erode OUR civil liberties.

We allow Fox, NBC, ABC, CNN, to spew their lies and distortions.

Until We Stop Saying "It's Them" and start Being "We The People..." we are being just as non-accountable, just as complicit as those who we have sitting inside the beltway as OUR PROXIES.

Why should OUR PROXY, with a cushy job, risk anything; when "We The People..." risk nothing?

Why should any member of Congress, or the Executive or Judicial branches of our government do anything but serve their own interests, if they know that year after year "We The People...." let'um get away with just that?

As long as "We The People..." remains a phrase, a slogan, chit-chat, .... "We The People..." get exactly what our lazyasses deserve.

When tens of 1000s of us are calling every day and making appointments with OUR REPRESENTATIVES, and marching into their offices and telling them exactly what we expect them to do if they want to retain the privilege of representing US, then things will change.

Until then we get what we deserve -- we get the outcome of the talk-version of "We The People...." rather than the outcome caused when "We The People of the United States of America In Order To Form A More Perfect Union...." DO JUST THAT, EVERY FRIGGING DAY.

Peace.


BE THE BU$H OPPOSITION; 24/7

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FreepFryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-09-05 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Absolutely spot-on, drop-dead correct. Everyone pick a front...
...and PRESS HARD.
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understandinglife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-09-05 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Precisely. It is what some of us have begun doing, but until ...
....we bring many more of our fellow citizens to the realization that "We The People...." is where the 'buck stops' for real in a Democracy, we have no reason to think that our proxies in DC are going to behave any differently.

Peace.

TBO;24/7
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hootinholler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-09-05 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #13
18. Nice Frame...
I think with a little work this frame could be used to great effect for the 2nd legacy paper.

Thank you.

-Hoot
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understandinglife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-09-05 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. Go for it, my friend!! (nt)


TBO;24/7
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helderheid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-09-05 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #13
20. WOOT!
YESSIR!
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Cocoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-09-05 03:59 PM
Response to Original message
16. you can't draw conclusions from online polls
here or elsewhere, even if they're at prestigious hard news sites.

The disclaimer you always see about them not being scientific is important. Online polls really are meaningless.
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loudsue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-09-05 04:58 PM
Response to Original message
21. why aren't they joining forces with the other Dems to call Bush out on his
fraud?

One answer: The DLC (in concert with the NDN).

This right wing branch of the Democratic Party control the purse strings and the "ear" of our Democratic Party legislators. Our guys are getting 24/7 propaganda that they aren't leaning far enough to the right, and that's why they're "losing" elections.

The same DLC corporate purses are also in bed with the Diebold group, and their cronies. They don't WANT Dems in Congress to listen to us, and they are working hard to marginalize our voices, and threatening our elected Dems with reduced funds if they don't play by the corporate rules.

So our elected Dems DON'T HEAR US! They are told by people who have the access to them, to look them in the eye, that we (out in the real world) are a bunch of liberal crazies, and that they shouldn't listen to us.

So, until we expose the DLC (and NDN) for who we know they are, and start raising hell that WE, THE PEOPLE are not being given "look me in the eye" time, they're going to continually hear lies from those who are offering big bucks and a losing agenda. We also have to do that on the local level with our State legislators. We have to let them know that WE KNOW about the corporate masters who are pulling their strings, and that we offer a legitimate grassroots alternative.

We also need to let them know that unless they get the voting machine issue straightened out, we're NEVER going to be able to "elect" anybody! Once we get that straightened out, we can put enough of them in that we can also decentralize the media, and start getting some honest reporting....media that won't continually slam the Democrats.

It's going to take a real concerted effort to let the Dems know that the DLC is only giving them more losses in the future. It's WE, THE PEOPLE ..... with the help of Howard Dean... that are going to take back the Democratic party from the republican stranglehold.

http://www.democracyforamerica.com/


:kick::kick::kick:

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BigBearJohn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-09-05 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. Well, we ought to start our own "fund" to support TRUE Democrats
If you do the right thing, we will somehow
get you the financial support. I mean,
didn't we come up with millions for Kerry?
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-09-05 11:37 PM
Response to Reply #22
27. The money is there
It's who spends the money, that's what matters. Just like who counts the votes is all that matters. Lets take over the DLC.

It is US, you, me, all of our sisters and brothers who need to be motivated to put our mouth where the money is.

I do it. I see my local officials a little more often each month, each time with a kind word and a bit of knowledge about democracy and what it means. They KNOW someone is watching and asking questions.

Now, if there were just a few dozen more like me, doing the same in every little burg across this country, we would soon see a real democracy.

As Edward Abbey said: "The cure for an ill democracy is more democracy"
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GetTheRightVote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-10-05 01:50 AM
Response to Reply #27
28. I like the quote from Edward Abbey, Democracy must live
:kick:
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