How to Take Action on Holt and Fix Our Elections

[kster]

September 19, 2007

by Mark Adams

SNIP...Most importantly, the 2004 recount in Ohio was fixed. So, what good is a recount? If you can’t get to recount the votes in a lawsuit or in an election contest before Congress, and you can’t trust the bureaucrats who held the election, or threw it in the first place, to count or recount the votes accurately, how can you make sure that the votes are counted accurately? Those who are paying attention and truly want to preserve our democracy have realized that lawsuits and after the fact recounts or audits are a poor substitute for reliable election night counts. I hope that we can all agree on that important point.

You may be asking, “What does any of this have to do with the Holt bill?”
Well, it has everything to do with it because the Holt bill does not fix elections unless you mean fixing them in the sense that we have experienced over the last few years. You heard that right! The Holt bill does not fix elections because it allows counting to continue in secret on computers which can be manipulated, and even worse, it makes the source code a secret protected under Federal law. In fact, Congressman Holt himself has said that it is no longer his bill, and Congressman Kucinich has urged other members of Congress not to pass it. One of the Holt bill’s advocates, who believes that doing something is better than doing nothing, even has a list of problems with the Holt bill which is 15 pages long. See
http://electionmathematics.org/em-legislation/S1487Amendments.pdf

This is why most of us who have been involved with election reform are so emphatic that the only way to preserve our democracy and our control over our government is by returning to elections conducted on paper ballots which are then counted in public. I think that we can all agree that this is the best way to preserve our democracy. It is also the quickest and least expensive way to do so, and Congressman Kucinich is considering reintroducing his paper ballots bill.

See
http://www.electiondefensealliance.org/h_r_6200_the_paper_ballot_act_of_2006
http://www.bradblog.com/?p=4788 and the text of Congressman Kucinich’s
bill which calls for hand counted paper ballots
http://electionfraudblog.com/index.php/dennis-kucinich-announces-hr6200-a-bill-t
o-require-paper-ballots-hand-counted-for-presidential-elections/

So, why would anyone want to support a bill that does not fully, easily, and inexpensively restore transparent elections by requiring voting to take place on paper ballots which are then counted in public? Are they interested in selling computers, in fixing elections, or do they just foolishly believe that doing something is better than doing what is best?



http://www.opednews.com/articles/opedne_mark_ada_070919_how_to_take_action_o.htm

[kster]

1. kick.nt

[kster]

2. kick.nt

[Stevepol]

3. K!

[2 Much Tribulation]

4. Yes I agree recounts are highly overrated. Not worthless, but highly overrated nt

[Bill Bored]

5. Ya got a problem with recounts? Then stick with paperless DREs!

What a bunch of bullshit.

Look, the issue is NOT that recounts are bad. It's that we can't trust FIRST COUNTS.

When you start talking against recounts, you are playing right into the hands of those who want secret counting of votes without even the possibility of doing a recount by hand!

When we say we don't trust recounts, we exclude the possibility of ERROR in the first count. Errors can swing elections as easily as fraud can, and recounts will almost always find errors, and correct them.

Who doesn't like recounts, besides you and Tobi and the other "wackos?"

The Supreme Ct. See Bush v. Gore
The authors of HAVA, which allows machines that CANNOT be recounted by hand.
The authors of the Holt bill, HR811, which requires no recount and requires no more than a 10% post election audit.
Oh, and how about the EAC, who writes voting system standards that don't require the ability to do independent recounts?

So you're in pretty good company with your anti-recount BS aren't you?

Look, we all want to be able to trust FIRST COUNTS, but unfortunately, we can't always do that for a variety of reasons. But to oppose the notion of a recount is just plain stupid.

[Bill Bored]

6. What is the point of recycling 4-month old Op Eds?

There's a new Holt bill now. Are you trying to conflate it with the old Holt bill? Do you not get the fact that the new Holt bill funds HCPB?

Are you just trying to cause chaos and confusion to the uninitiated?
Trying to kill this forum?

What's your game dude?

[kster]

7. I will not go along with a bill that further promotes secret vote counting

you may want to fool yourself, thats fine by me.

Time to tear down this cloak of secrecy and silence about secret vote counting.

You can run the ballots through your secret scanning machines all you want, you can take them ballots and do your little audit, after we are done Hand Counting them FIRST.

STOP THE LIES!!

[Bill Bored]

8. What part of...

"Do you not get the fact that the new Holt bill funds HCPB?", do you not get?

See there are TWO HOLT Bills now. One by Holt, and one by Nancy Tobi.

I would think you would be interested in the Tobi one. No?

[kster]

9. What part of

the CROOKS are done counting our Goddamn votes in secret, Don't you get!!!!

To many of us, and to few of them, ITS OVER BILL!!! Only a matter of time my friend, Only a matter of time.

:hi:

[Bill Bored]

14. Are you calling Nancy Tobi a CROOK kster? nt

[kster]

15. When the people have had enough, and they

show up ready to fight for Hand Counted Paper Ballots, I hope your there to try and stop them.

I'm ready to fight to defend my side.

Are you willing to fight to defend your side?

I'm not talking about "keyboard warrior" I'm talking a real fight.

[Wilms]

16. Ooooooh!! n/t

[kster]

17. Ok, are you stalking me

:hi:

[Wilms]

18. Let me ask.

Did you just threaten Bill?

[Bill Bored]

20. So you like the new Holt bill and you're going to fight for it? Is that it, or did I miss something?

[kster]

21. I'm willing to fight for paper ballots that are hand counted

out in the open for all to see.

Are you willing to fight for holt that will allow secret vote counting machines to remain in place?

Just want to see if you are dedicated to your cause.

:)

[Bill Bored]

24. Well, let's see.

There are 535 members of Congress. Only one has a bill that PAYS FOR HCPB. Happens to be Holt. (Dennis never re-introduced his bill, did he?)

So you can either support Holt on this one or do this without any help from Congress. You might want to actually read the bill though, just so you know what you're getting yourself into.

Have you ever read a bill before?

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

10. imagine the harm when someone who can't read - counts the vote?

It seems to undermine the creditability of arguing for human counted paper ballots, when
some HCPB advocates appear to lack basic reading comprehension.

:shrug:

[kster]

12. Don't sell yourself short, I think you would be

perfectly capable of hand counting ballots.

[Ellipsis]

11. I wonder that myself

...for a long time.

[Bill Bored]

13. Maybe some kind of infiltrator sent to distract us?

[Ellipsis]

19. I can't respond to that

"Do not publicly accuse another member of this message board of being a disruptor, conservative, Republican, FReeper, or troll, or do not otherwise imply they are not welcome on Democratic Underground. If you think someone is a disruptor, click the "Alert" link below their post to let the moderators know."

I will say this

We all have are moments as I have had mine ...in fact on a Holt issue you corrected me once ...it took me along time to get the black feathers out of my teeth from the crow I ate by only skimming his bio.

I try to SUPPORT peoples efforts and let them know it. It can be a pretty thankless task spending hours pouring over data and a little warm fuzzy goes a long way . I have grown to respect, care and smile when reading posts from many of the regulars on this board and specifically this forum(you're one). Some who take more then their share of abuse because they say or refute what others don't want to to hear.

Some disagreements will never be resolved and one would think after a period of time, a long, long, period of time, people would check their bullshit at the door and focus on what matters ...improving the system.

Critical weaknesses in key states, ie. Ohio, Florida, etc. need to be center focus and positive change has happened and needs to continue. By now the bulk of us agree random audits at a correct%, chain of custody, counting the votes at the precinct level and a true paper record (not some funky thermal print out which fades over time) are logical common sense, essential elements to a reliable vote count.

The magistrate nails the rest in this post:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=495614&mesg_id=495615

"It is accomplished by weeding the rolls, selective registration, manipulating the supply of equipment to polling places, by campaigns aimed on the one hand at disgusting segments of the population with the entire process so they do not bother, and on the other hand by campaigns aimed at energizing narrowly defined demographic groups to come out in furious droves, and by other means of similar sort. Well before the first votes are cast professionals shape the field to yield a particular harvest."

"The potential for manipulation of the counting machines is something of a distraction from the real business of cleaning up the election system."




And since I'm rambling...(and the rest of this is not pointed at you at all)

While BRAD may sensationalize and post his header with ALL Cap's his hearts in the right place. Of this, I have no doubt. (I'd be glad to have in in my "foxhole".) He has gotten out the word ...and most likely could make a hell of lot more money doing stand up with some of the antics that transpire by some people in the movement.

Conversely...

I try not to disparage BEV any more. (Even the national enquirer gets it right some time. ...Okay, guilty.) Read her words. Cull her narcissistic tendencies. It damages her credibility. If she can't disseminate information she shouldn't be attempting to yield Thor's hammer. Whenever there is "suggested" malfeasance verses actual fact it's going to get pointed out. The rest of the negative energy toward her just fucks up the positives coming out of ER. Learn to walk away.

I don't mind seeing a link to her site from time to time but she does HAVE her own site. Go to the source to compliment her work I'm sure she'll appreciate it.

[Pastiche423]

22. What part of Bev Harris is not welcome here

do you not understand?

If you want to believe a lying, cheating, grifting fraud, that is your prerogative. But do not bring her lies to this site.

[Ellipsis]

23. Case in point.... I have never posted bev's tripe.

LOL


edited to add:

Skinner has banned reference to certain sites, I'd have no problem with a BEV ban... but until then I just TRY to ignore her.

and I love your sig pic.