Christ addiction

[EstimatedProphet]

I just got back from Christmas with the family. Stayed at my sister's house. She is (like so many are) an ex-drug addict/alcoholic turned religious fanatic. For years and years, literally since junior high school (and she's in her late 40's now) she was addicted to cocaine and drinking, and stayed that way until her mid-30's. Now she's changed her addiction to drugs to an addiction to Christ. She's better now, because she's no longer poisoning her body, but her way of thinking is so black and white that she's poisoned her mind.

Her worldview is very simple: as she puts it, she has given herself to God. Therefore, God lives her life for her. She no longer has any responsibility for her decisions, nor can she take any kind of real pleasure in what she does, because God is the one that does it. She claims to enjoy her life and what she does (and she has done some things to be proud of) and at the same time she doesn't even believe that she did them, and every time she mentions anything she says that God did it through her.

What's the point in living if you're not living your own life? If you aren't actually responsible for your own achievements, then why even make any? And if you're not responsible for your achievements, then what about your failures? If she hit a kid on the way to work, wouldn't that be God's fault too?

She has actually told her kids on occasion that things like storms that occur when they are going out to party are signs to not go out from God, and never obnce thinks about how that storm may have caused an accident which killed someone (it happend while we were there actually). What kind of God would send a storm which kills other people as a message to someone to not go out and have fun?

She believes that everything is a potential test by Satan to turn her away from God. Every event, every object, every action. Satan is behind every bush (no pun intended BTW) trying to turn her away from her righteous path. So every decision she "makes" is actually prayed on. She literally cannot open the door without asking God whether she should.

How do you live your life being constantly afraid of the boogeyman? doesn't this sound less like Christianity and more like voodoo? It seems really animistic. Everything is possessed by a demon that's trying to deceive you.

She's got serious trouble with raising her kids, who are now all adults. She mad a lot of mistakes in raising them, and they show the damage. But now, she refuses to let them live their own lives, she continually undercuts their authority with their own kids, and she goes on about how she wants to keep them from making the same mistakes she did - which of course makes them rebel all the more, and make the same mistakes. As much as I would like to talk to her about what is going on, I can't. Her worldview is such that if she has an idea, God must have put it there, therefore it's infallible so anything she does is sacrosanct. There's mo room for discussion.

Her middle daughter was actually trying to tell me that Christianity started at the same time as the United States! Anyone before the US was founded wasn't a Christian, and anyone outside the US isn't a Christian either. I set her straight in short order, and she did realize what she was saying, but she had been indoctrinated to the point that she could spew crap like that and not know it was crap.

I really worry about these people. They're not sane. They no longer live in reality. and they do believe that it is their right to convert everyone around them. Fundie churches target the drug-addicted on purpose: not because they are really interested in saving those people, but because they make the best shock troops. She goes off and witnesses all the time, and forces her kids to come along when she can get them to. It doesn't matter that that is trying to force beliefs on someone else, or that that turns people away more that anything else, or that if someone is forced into religion then it isn't because they believe and really doesn't count, she does it anyway and nothing will stop her. Christ addicts will stop at NOTHING to get what they're after, because they truly believe that they will go to hell if they fail. My sister is a Christ addict. She may have given up the physically-damaging effects of drugs, but the addiction is still there, along with the extremism that makes it damaging.

[YOY]

1. Sorry for your sis...angry about her kids

But they're her kids and it is her right to mess them up.

I often find it ironic that many folks who had their lives messed up by addiction, think that the rest of us are still lost as they were.

Rather sad really...perhaps your theory on fundie churches targeting the weak doesn't go beyond the fact that they make good shock troops. They target them because they are weak and nothing more. They make lousy shocktroopers as they scare the crap out of everyone who knows them. They cannot target the strong willed/unbroken and never will be able to...unless they get the right to lock you in a room and deprogram the 'liberal' out of you...in the name of God of course.

[EstimatedProphet]

19. True, they drive off people

But they do win over party stalwarts, which is IMO what some of the churches are really concerned with. And my fear is that some of them really do want to lock us all in a room and deprogram the liberal out of us all. Very much "We destroyed the village in order to save it" mentality.

[beam me up scottie]

2. Oh, wow.

I am so sorry that your nieces and nephews have had to deal with that. My ex-husband had the same kind of mother. He grew up thinking he was going to hell.

It's almost like a disability, isn't it?

[prole_for_peace]

3. i have known people like that.

if something good happens its god and if something bad happens either its satan or god was mad at them and did it to punish them. i have always thought of it as an addiction too. just another way not to have to take responsibility for anything that you do. it is always something or someone else that caused x.

[fudge stripe cookays]

4. Gack!

Sorry EP.

I could never even visit with people like that. I'd blow my brains out first. Sorry your sister has been lost. First through drugs, and now through this.

Hopefully if you can run some interference with the kids they won't end up in that same place. I'll keep my fingers crossed for you.

[EstimatedProphet]

21. I really hate to tell you this...

This was in your neck of the woods. San Antonio. I was surprised at how it's becoming another Colorado Springs. Apparently fundies have targeted it for their own.

[bperci108]

29. I think you can thank "Pastor" John Hagee for that.

Isn't that bulbous sack-'o-shit from San Antonio?

:puke:

I think he's one of the new christofascist power players, especially with the current administration.

[fudge stripe cookays]

32. LEININGER, baby.

Look up Promised Land Dairy.

That miserable pusbag and Bob Perry are the biggest players in Texas. And Leininger is extra creepy.

fsc

[patrice]

60. RW Church Cartels

Christianity is BIG Business.

[fudge stripe cookays]

31. Not surprising.

Don't feel bad, sweetie. I hated my three years in San Antonio with a passion. Got no claim on it. And reprehensor and I plan on leaving Texas soon (please God please God please God).

The military owns that town. Just like Colo Springs. 5 freaking bases. FIVE. Actually-- sorry. I think I heard they were shutting one down a few years ago. Four. So three air force, and 1 army.

They indoctrinate their young with right wing military crap, and the next generation insulates themselves with God instead of guns. It's a natural progression.

Anyhoo, I am sorry about your sister. :hug:

[tavalon]

90. I lived for thirteen years in that pisshole

It's a fun tourist town but hell to live in. You sound like me, I was so desperate to get out of Texas and in all, it took me 22 years. The only thing that made the last few years livable and only marginally so, was that I lived in Austin. I did get out and I hope you guys get out soon, too.

[fudge stripe cookays]

112. Thanks Tav.

I've lived in just about all the biggies now, except Houston (which IS a blessing).

Why my dad couldn't have decided to retire from the Air Force in Chicago where the rest of his family was still flummoxes me. For some reason, he didn't want me growing up in the big city.

Austin was fun when I was young (and up until 93, when it became nasty and overdeveloped). Dallas and San Antonio are nothing like it. Denton was fun for a time, but I'VE DONE MY TIME in TEXAS! Can I please get out now? It's been 36 years! I'd like a change!!!

:hug:

[tavalon]

115. Wow, it sounds like you've lived most of your natural born life

in a whole other country, er, Texas. I love it up here in Seattle even though we've lost power a lot this winter.

[fudge stripe cookays]

117. You would be correct.

I'm desperate to escape now. I was in Everett last month. I think I got in during the only short window of OK weather for 2 months!

I woulda called some folks to hang out, but my weekend was totally jammed full of meeting with cousins and doing research for my book, so this time was a bust. Hopefully in another year or so I'll be able to squeeze in another visit-- this time to Tacoma.

[tavalon]

120. So, can I guess from that

that you want to be a Great Northwest transplant like me? I love it up here! I don't miss a thing about Texas, not one thing. Okay, friends, I miss friends but I have new friends up here. And trees, oh the trees and the mountains and even the snow today. It's so nice.

[fudge stripe cookays]

121. Actually...

reprehensor is from Alberta, so we're heading for Calgary. We might be living in a cardboard box there for awhile (rents and mortgages being VERY high, and 100 pound dogs not very popular), but we have plenty of friends and family there to help us out.

So definitely north, but not quite as far west as you! Howdy neighbor! :hi:

[frankly_fedup2]

73. She sounds to me like she has been watching too much Pat Robertson

and Jerry Falwell. They are on cable afterall.

The converted are always the fantics afterwards whether it be to religion, cigarettes, alcohol, drugs, whatever they beat. I think a lot of it has to do with the 12-step system. Religion plays a B-I-G role in the 12 steps.

Also, Schizophrenics are unbelievably obsessive about religion. Just a thought . . . no offense.

[Chorophyll]

113. My former best friend

sounds very much like your sister. And she lives (and her church is located) in Brooklyn, NY.

This particular type of Christianity flourishes anyplace where you've got addictive personalities, and people who are looking for someone to tell them how to live. Which means it's everywhere.

Sorry, Estimated Prophet. It's very frustrating to deal with friends or relatives who've succumbed.

[Warpy]

5. Sometimes rehab doesn't work

and people change one soul destroying addiction for another.

I've seen a lot of addicts/alcoholics go this route and there's nothing we can do about it except be grateful that their bodies aren't being poisoned even as their minds are as twisted as they were on heavy drugs.

In other words, she's doing what she has to in order to survive.

I can understand people like her a lot better than I can understand the rest of the fundies. She's got an excuse and her survival depends on it. They have no excuse for buying into this hateful garbage.

Just ask yourself what's worse, seeing her or being her. That may help you to deal with her. You can still gently correct the kids when they spout shite. Chances are they'll reject the whole package of fairies and nonsense as they get older.

[EstimatedProphet]

14. Well, like I said...

She is better now than before, because she's not poisoning her body anymore. but she's still an addict, with all the nastiness that comes along with it.

[volstork]

6. I have a friend

who jumped into the same boat (though not to such an extent as you describe) following the breakup of her marriage. She had previously been a fun, outgoing, tolerant individual; she is now obsessed with Jesus, though she seems to ignore his teachings (as so many fundies seem to do). She now abhors homosexuals, is stilted and preachy-- and has pushed her 10 year old down the same path. I struggle with being sad for the loss of the friend I knew and being angry at her and the "christianity" that transformed her. I am a practicing Methodist, and am active in a very liberal, intellectual congregation. I do my best to live the life that Jesus described: tolerance, care for the poor, acknowledging the dignity of all people. I am certainly not perfect by any means, but I do try. It makes me furious to have such beautiful teachings twisted into the parody of fundamentalism. Untold damage has been wrought by this type of thinking.

[patrice]

61. I've seen some very fine Methodists active since the first attempts to

talk publicly about Nuclear Freeze days in the early 70's I think.

I do remember some very fine Methodists leading the way.

[jgraz]

7. It's called a Delusional Disorder

Fancy talk for saying your sister is nuts.

Unfortunately, the acceptance of religion in our society makes it almost impossible for anyone to do anything about it. If she were praying to Gary Busey or the lintball under her bed, social services would be all over her. The fact that she happened to pick a more "traditional" delusion makes her almost immune from any help. In fact, you'll likely find many religious "moderates" who will praise her for her devotion.

When "moderate" Christians ask me what my problem is with their religion, I point to cases like this. As long as it's deemed impolite to even suggest that religion is something other than a beautiful, essential part of our collective world view, people like your sister will be allowed to continue damaging themselves and their children.

[formerrepuke]

8. That's a genuine addiction...(link)

http://www.fairnessproject.org/Religious_Addiction.html

EXCERPT: "Like substance addictions, it takes over, dominates life, pushes other issues to the background, tells them how and what to feel to prevent them from facing their real feelings about themselves and life, creates a mythology about the world, protects its “stash,” and supports their denial that they have a problem."

Sound familiar?

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. 
[link:www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules.html|Click
here] to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jgraz]

13. Sadly, what he is describing IS Christianity

Just a slightly more intense version than most people practice. E.P.'s sis is not doing anything that's prohibited by Christian doctrine. In fact, according to the bible, she's got a much better chance of getting into heaven than most Christians do.

[YOY]

20. Only if taken literally and not figuratively...don't confuse the fundies with the masses

There are some 'trumps' in the bible that supposedly could override other contradictory tripe.

Peter 4:8-10 is one of them. In the NT they usually start with "Above all things"...usually they are pretty nice things to do too...


Then again, I'm a jaded Catholic/agnostic, what do I know?

[EstimatedProphet]

23. And she takes the bible VERY literally

What she has told me about when she preaches is that she reads the bible, and the words mean what they say. Period. No metaphor, no allusion, no flexibility or human content at all.

[YOY]

24. and that is the pure definition of a Fundie!

Despite anything (grossly) contradictory in the book, it is the rock solid truth to them. Incidently, this SAME THING happened to a HS friend of mine who had a serious drinking problem in College. After denoucing his Catholic family (false Christians of course) he moved far away to be closer to his flock. The last I heard, he now resembles a shadow of his former self (albeit a scary shadow with kids).

No offense intended to your sister, but the lack of ability to accept the idea of a literal device used in a book could indeed constitute mental health issues. I wonder, just how this was force fed to her and by whom...

If I were in your shoes, I might be very keen in finding out just who converted her and how. Do you have any details?

[EstimatedProphet]

47. I do know how, and who

The story is simply too long to go into. Suffice to say she is still acting on abuse from my father, and has found a religious leader who fits a stereotype she wants to follow.

[patrice]

68. That's not humanly possible.

If it's "true", the Bible is Ir-relevant.

[knitter4democracy]

79. Can you contact her pastor?

When my mom's mania got out of control last year, her pastor was involved in getting her the help she needed, and he and I talk occasionally so we both know what's going on.

What church does she attend? You might have more help from them than you realize. Most pastors don't want truly ill people helping with ministry or anything. Her behavior is over the edge, and many pastors these days deal with that kind of parishioner all the time.

[EstimatedProphet]

83. Her pastor is a big part of the problem IMO

It's an obsessive fundie church

[knitter4democracy]

111. That's a problem.

You might still want to call and alert him to what's going on that he might not know. Then again, I haven't always had much luck talking with those types, either, and I grew up in that kind of church.

[jgraz]

27. I'm not "confusing" them, I making an argument that the difference is only a matter of degree

It's hard to see how 1 Peter 4:8-10 trumps the words of Jesus himself, who says you cannot enter heaven unless you follow every letter in the doctrine (Matthew 5:17-20).

[YOY]

30. Meh...it contradicts itself all over, that's what Holy books do...

I prefered the abridged version. Here it is:

OT 1:1 "Be a lawabiding citizen...not a dick."

NT 1:1 "Also be a nice person...not a dick."

Pretty quotable, and only semi-contradictory.

[jgraz]

33. If only everyone had your bible...

Sadly, most devout Christians don't share your interpretation of scripture.

[patrice]

69. And definitely not a Dick Cheney!

[Eonism]

128. error

[Eonism]

129. Matthew 5:17-20, Peter 4:8-10, Legalism and the antedote Galatians

I think in Matthew 5:17-18 Jesus was saying he would completely fulfil the old testament i.e as Messiah he would fully keep the law and also fulfil all the messianic prophesies, metaphors, allusions, etc Romans 5: 9 explains how this helps us - through the obedience of one man the many will be made righteous].

Matthew 5:19 Jesus then teaches that both people who practice and teach the commands and those who break commands and teach others to break them will be in heaven, i.e. these are not qualifications for entering heaven, the difference being those in heaven will be called great and least in the Kingdom of heaven respectively based on their practice of the commands. By the commands I suspect Jesus's emphasis is on the one he seems to concentrate on teaching. I think Peter 4:8-10 is a good summary of some of Jesus's key teachings - love each other deeply, love covers over a multitude of sins, offer hospitality, serve others, faithfully administer God's grace.

Matthew 20: Jesus does then exclude certain "self righteous religious" persons - like the self righteous Pharisees & Teachers of the Law - from heaven. i.e. These were those who thought they were good enough to get into heaven by what they did. (Galatians 2:16) agrees with this - know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ... ...by observing the law no one is justified.

EstimatedProphet. Your sister sounds like she's suffering from classic symptoms of legalism - trying to establish her own righteousness by keeping the Law rather than trusting that Jesus Christ has already done this for her -. This may be a symptom of the church she attends or it could simply be something she struggles with herself - perhaps she finds it difficult to Trust God as her Father if she has experienced an abusive Father relationship in the past.

Either way Galatians is full of advice that will help your sister as it specifically addresses the legalism problem: the advice needs to be passed it on carefully otherwise she'll just put up her defences. If you can apply it to your sister or find a good pastor / counsellor who she'll listen to and who understands God' grace you may well be able to help her.

Thanks for reading this post. Up in the night couldn't sleep. :) Hope you don't mind my advice and hope your sister mellows out.

ATB

Simeon

[patrice]

64. Christianity isn't about going to heaven. Christ threw his life into the Void.

[beam me up scottie]

11. So he should read C.S. Lewis to learn about religion?

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

[badgerpup]

51. C.S. Lewis wrote other stuff besides the Narnia Chronicles

Only one I can remember right now is The Screwtape Letters but there is a lot of other stuff.

Mind you, I'm NOT saying I agree with what he wrote.
Just don't lump all his 'religious study' under Narnia. :hi:



Those were good stories until all the religious symbolism was shoved in my face...totally wrecked them for me. x(

[patrice]

66. Perelandera and Out of the Angry Planet . . .

[mzteris]

146. Out of the SILENT Planet

and the third in the trilogy - That Hideous Strength (the worst of the 3 IMO).

Though it had a great line in it -

Some women and men are in the kitchen and the he talks about how a woman can say "put this in that over there" and the women know exactly what she's talking about, but you'd have to tell the man, put this blue bowl in the red bowl on the third shelf of the cabinet just to the right of the stove. (or something akin to that..... :) )


(or maybe it was from Out of the Silent Planet, I forget. I read them about 30 years ago!!)

[beam me up scottie]

80. I didn't say anything about Narnia. I wasn't even thinking of it, actually.

What I found amusing was the poster's premise that the op needed to "learn" about christianity and should do so by reading fiction.

Hmmmmm, actually, the bible is mostly fiction too, now that I think about it, but it's also terribly violent.

Perhaps she thought reading the real deal would traumatize him? :D

[Dorian Gray]

96. I agree with you

but, just to make sure people know... Mere Christianity is not fiction.

[dsc]

135. Lewis was a very prolific theologian

He wrote plenty of non fiction books. One could do far worse than Lewis if one wishes to learn about Christianity.

[Danger Mouse]

137. What about 'Mere Christianity'?

Written by Lewis. It's not a ficitional book. Well, not in the sense that his other stuff is.

[beam me up scottie]

140. My bad, I never read it.

I'll take your and Dorian's word for it, though.

I hate to sound intolerant, but I have always been an atheist and I always thought all books about christianity were fiction.

I apologize for not realizing it was considered non-fiction.

[Danger Mouse]

144. Don't feel bad.

I never read it either :)
Just heard from some other Christians that it was supposed to be good...read a few pages, got bored, decided to go play some sinful Satanic video games instead. I don't need a fantasy writer to justify my faith for me :P Sorry, Aslan, but I can manage on my own.

[beam me up scottie]

145. You're a scream!

:rofl:

And your teacher's worst nightmare, no doubt!

[Danger Mouse]

148. I was actually pretty quiet in high school and college...

...well, for the most part...I made some teachers miserable, but i had this one english teacher who was every bit as nasty, sarcastic, and obnoxious as i was. she gave me a hard time constantly, but she loved me.

[charlie]

142. "Well, not in the sense that his other stuff is."

Haw! I like you better and better every day Elrond. You've got a cheeky sense of humor.

[Danger Mouse]

143. Why, thank you :)

I grew up in a town FULL of backwards trogolodytes with a high school biology teacher who secretely hated teaching anything related to evolution and crowds of rednecks who wished they live in the South.
Anyone looking for proof of evolution only needed to visit my school and see the half-evolved apes that played on the football team.
Sarcasm was the only weapon that you could use against them...they were too dimwitted to understand it.

[Dorian Gray]

67. Mere Christianity

is a standard text that many who are looking into Christianity read to get a good and general feel of what their life will be like and what the general concepts of the Christian religions will hold for the adherent.

I disagree that this will help the OP, though. It sounds like her sister is far removed from normal religious behaviour and is using her Christianity as a dangerous crutch that will damage her and her family. :(

It's sad.

[beam me up scottie]

81. So it's like reading 'A Hitchhikers Guide to the Universe' to learn about atheism?

:evilgrin:

Some christians assume that non-christians know nothing about their religion.

I found her inference that the op wouldn't criticize christianity if he knew anything about it insulting.

She either ignores, or is ignorant of, the fact that many non-christians are non-christians specifically BECAUSE of christianity.

[EstimatedProphet]

85. Also, to be honest, I am Christian

which is one of the things that pissed me off about the bonehead freeper post. she doesn't have clue one what is going on, she clearly didn't read anything about what I wrote, but decided to lecture me about what 'real' Christianity is supposed to be, and how I'm being intolerant for asking questions about what things mean.

I am a Christian. I know what Christianity is about. And one of the things it's not supposed to be about is exclusion, and this church of hers is exclusionary. When my niece was talking about how Christianity was started along with the USA, she was saying that any beliefs that fall out of that framework - started with the USA, only occurs in America, etc. - are not Christian. That's patently stupid, but that's what she's been taught by these perverts.

[beam me up scottie]

87. I thought you were, but I couldn't remember.

When my ex-brother-in-law tried to commit suicide, the vultures from his mother's fundie church never left his bedside. Here he was, this poor scared kid, depressed, lonely and pumped up with drugs and all they wanted to do was convert him.

You should have seen it, it was one of the most revolting spectacles I've ever witnessed. They acted like they won a trophy when he finally gave in. They convinced him that if he trusted God enough, he would get better.

Of course, after a few weeks, K couldn't help but backslide which made him even MORE depressed and suicidal.

If that would have been my brother in there, I would have gotten restraining orders on all of them.

[Dorian Gray]

97. In case you thought I was defending his or her post

.... I was in no way doing so. I think she/he was totally wrong in piling on you like that. Your concerns are more than valid, and I totally understand your frustration.

Is her religion new to her? Sometimes new adherents get a fervor that wares off after awhile. Hopefully it will do so for her, but, sadly, there is little that you can do for her. Be thankful that she's no longer abusing drugs, and hopefully she will not continue to abuse God, as well.

[Dorian Gray]

95. Mere Christianity.....

I don't think it's like reading Hitchhiker's Guide to learn about atheism, as Mere Christianity isn't a novel. It pretty much outlines the basic theology behind Christianity. The familiar threads among the Protestant/Catholic/Orthodox churches. It's not a novelization or fictionalization like The Screwtape Letters. It's an all out theological work that breaks down the basics quite simply and easily. So, it's not ridiculous to suggest that as a beginning point to learn about Christianity. It is, however, ridiculous to point that out to the OP, as it has nothing to do with his/her post.

I find the rest of your post to be true. The one hit wonder poster also pretty much ignored all that the OP stated about her (her?) sister, which is a shame. I do know people who have gone overboard with their religiosity to overcome an addiction, and it can be really difficult for the family if their personalities completely change and they transfer their addiction for an obsession with religion. There is a lot unhealthy about the way that OP's sister is living her life, and I don't deny that. Her words truly can cripple her children's emotional development (though I believe OP said those children were now all adults). She exchanged one destructive crutch for another, and this is coming from somebody who is quite religious.

[Danger Mouse]

138. Kind of related to whole...

'NTSF'
People assume their religion is infallible, and that anyone who does bad things in its name aren't really tied to it...organized religion is organized by MEN, and thus must have flaws. It's not like God actively coordinates anyone's church, though some people would like to have you believe that he does :P

[beam me up scottie]

141. You mean like Betty Bowers?

She's America's Best Christian. :D

[maxsolomon]

12. tolerate my intolerance or you are intolerant!

welcome to DU.

[EstimatedProphet]

16. Are you still here?

Did it not occur to you that I have SEEN THIS WITH MY OWN EYES, not just read someone else's post about it?

I was there. You were not. I can see when Christianity is damaging itself. You can't.

BTW, asking questions (like I did in my post) is a sign of tolerance, not black and white thinking. I'm demonstrating critical thinking. You are not.

[patrice]

17. Trying to get somewhere near that balance point where two "opposed" validities

interact equally, and thus open the "doors of our perception" to real Mystery is, at least hypothetically, desirable.

But actually being there compared to acting (your role in life) as though you are, are two different things. Self deception is extremely functional in some ways, and, ergo, hard to recognize. That's why I think it is usually better to go with one's real biases, in regards to decisions about personal behavior (not others' behavior), in order to recognize the truths about ourselves and accept responsibility for one's own soul, like a grown-up, and even to embrace correction if necessary, which is really more often needed rather than not needed. And it is correction that calls us to the real Truth, rather than ideology.

[Orrex]

25. Mere Christianity is hogwash, by the way

Though praised as a latter-day masterwork of apologetics, it offers truly simplistic arguments that aren't convincing to anyone who doesn't already believe. Lewis commits numerous fundamental fallacies, chief among them the false dichotomy and the argument by analogy.

It's an easily accessible read, however; if you're looking to expose yourself to a highly praised but ultimately quite weak example of apologetics, borrow a copy from your library.

[patrice]

55. Argument by analogy is very tricky. Used frequently by those who desire

to confuse and obfuscate.

I prefer the Organic facts, of all types.

Hare Krsna!

[patrice]

70. I prefer G.K. Chesterton.

G. M. Hopkins

Aristotle

the Bhagavad Gita

et al

Harebo!

[WhollyHeretic]

26. .

[patrice]

62. How do you know what they know?

[knitter4democracy]

77. I don't normally respond to trolls, but I'll make an exception for you.

The OP was not attacking Christianity. In fact, most here don't attack Christianity. The ones who make angry posts all have valid points that are often made within the church and have valid reasons for feeling the way they do.

I am a born-again Christian. I went to an evangelical college. My husband and I converted to Eastern Orthodoxy, but we are very, very familiar with the kind of Christianity described in the OP. My mom is an evangelical as well as bi-polar and a former alcoholic, and the behavior the OP describes is similar to hers when she is very ill. When she had to be hospitalized for mania last year, it almost entirely was about her faith. She was ill--even her pastor agreed with us on that. When I got to her house the morning we had to take her to the hospital, she thought Satan was trying to get in her bedroom and wouldn't let her husband open the door. Good thing I had a key. She thought my children (both baptized and raised in the faith) were going to hell and kept trying to "convert" them, she thought Satan and God both were talking to her, and she was worried that every single decision had to be from God.

The behavior described in the OP is beyond the pale, even for an evangelical or pentecostal. It is not healthy. This is not to attack the faith, just an admission of illness in a particular believer.

[tavalon]

91. Yo rck

Turn off the cable TV and engage the gray matter between your ears. There's a difference between standard Christianity and a Christ addiction.

Welcome to DU, though I'm fairly sure you won't be here long. Enjoy your stay.

[Realityhack]

104. What exactly is your issue?

Frankly that kind of complete disregard for what the OP actually said as opposed to the title of the post was is a tombstone waiting to happen.
The OP made it quite clear that he is talking about a particular person. He provides details about how she is quite seriously addicted to religion.
There is no reason to believe that amongst the various degrees of religious thought and action that there can not be an ‘excessive to the point of addition’ category just like there is with sex, drinking, etc.
You should read past the title.
We can all tell the difference between a person who has a glass of wine with most meals and a raging alcoholic. Saying that the second has an addiction is in no way intolerant of moderate drinking.

[Realityhack]

105. I almost forgot.

You might want to be careful posting such condemnations of peoples knowledge here. I am willing to bet there are atheists here who know more about religion than you.

[Joe Chi Minh]

15. It's makes very sad reading, because she is turning many truths

of Christianity into a surreal and pernicious, Stephen King-type dreamscape of half-truths and delusions.

It should be acknowledged though that, when we find our way back to the faith, after a shipwreck, often because we want to explore why we should believe, before we eventually find ourselves again, and our faith becomes stronger than it might have been otherwise, it can take a long time for our faith to achieve a normal kind of equilibrium. One of the worst thing for a "fundie" to do, although apparently it is a defining characteristic, is to close their minds, in the fond belief that they know and understand the length and breadth the heights and depths of the faith and what God wants to teach them. The worst of course is when they make a travesty of the teachings of Christ and the whole burden of scripture by imagining that wealth is a sign of God's blessing and approval.

My wife and I often say, "See you shortly, God willing", when we go out, but there's an element of gallows humour in it too. You know the saying, If you want to make God laugh, tell him what you're going to do tomorrow

Another one I like is, "If God spares me." A priest we know told us about a woman parishioner of his who always said that, having suffered a whole series of family losses in a short space of time.

But the thing is, while I recognise the essentially evangelical nature of our faith, I don't see formal belief as anything like the be all and end all. Quite the contrary. In one of the New Testament Epistles, we are told that the devil believes and trembles. The one purpose of the law and the prophets is to teach self-denying love. Without it, nothing is of value at all.

Christ often held up the goodness of an individual Samaritan, a heathen, as examples of this "docility", this teachableness, this humility, in which love can take root and flourish; contrasting it with the hard, know-all, theocratic imperiousness of the scribes and Pharisees, the respectable religious establishment, who thought it had to be a conscious credence of various formal, religious tenets. In a word, God is a much more "laid back" dude than he usually allowed the Israelites in Moses day to realise.

"To the innocent, all things are innocent", and "Love God and do what you like" may be sayings that could lead to serious misunderstandings, but they nevertheless express a very deep truth. Love comes first, it is the Alpha and the Omega.

Against those precepts, unfortunately should be viewed one of the worst and most dangerous sins, that of presumption. Taking those sayings too literally. Spiritual truth is a fathomless well of paradoxes.

The great benefit of Christian belief, to my way of thinking is what it can do for us as individuals, and no less as a society. But as you point out, it's futile and even counter-productive to continually evangelise individuals, the more so, the more unsolicited and insistent.

Pray for your sister, and God willing, in time, she'll come round to a more balanced way of thinking.

[EstimatedProphet]

18. I hope she does come out of it

The problem may be in part "dry-drunk" syndrome, which is common among fundies, even suspected in Our Great Leader. Brain damage from continued chemical use turns people into a kind of blank slate, and they become very susceptible to being programmed. It's very hard to undo.

What I find disturbing about how she views the world is that there is no potential for her to be...her. For example, I got a Ph.D. she whould (and did) say God got it for me. Where was I? If I didn't make that decision to pursue it, was I even involved? What was the point in even doing it then?

I can't live my life that way.

[Joe Chi Minh]

37. She seems to be unaware of the corollary, i.e that if whatever good a

Christian does or achieves is by God's prevenient grace, it is because we ourselves are embryonic other Christs, not by nature but by adoption into the very life of the Holy Trinity.

Your sister seems to be trying to counter the basic fallacy of Pelagianism: man is unaffected by the Fall and can keep all of God's law. Unfortunately, she does so by going to the other extreme. However, to deny our personal human input in our lives and behaviour is to believe that we are automatons, without even the dignity of acquiescing (as best we can with his grace), in God's plans for us. Grace becomes an overwhelming tyrant - which is precisely the opposite to the reality.

If we cannot be responsible for our actions, then virtue and evil, reward and punishment become meaningless. We don't reproach (ocean) sharks for being sharks. It's their nature.

In fact, it is all too easy for us to reject God's grace and to rely on our own unregenerate selves. And our actions may well seem and even be successful on the mundanely-perceived level. However, by virtue of our baptism, provided that our soul is not crippled by bad sins, everything we do, we already do in Christ, in his Spirit.

Prayer gives a fascinating insight into how this works. When you pray for a while, your soul doesn't stop praying when you stop praying and turn your attention elsewhere. It continues for a while in prayer. It's the saving grace of Catholics, clerical and lay, who race through the Rosary, instead of trying to consider what they are saying, while meditating on the mystery in question. To some extent, assuming the prayerful intention is sincere, the soul will be caught up in prayer/prayerfulness, despite the apparent "rattling off" of the prayers. God's not a tyrant, though some things are not negotiable* (always for our own good).

*This is not to say that they are always unforgivable, since God always takes account of the context of our own very personal and individual circumstances.

[Name removed]

39. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[patrice]

71. Because of how God created human souls, we are commanded to Choose.

Anything but choosing is abdication of our nature(s).

Archetypes are Real.

[okasha]

41. Your sister's problem isn't religion.

Your sister's problems are whatever they were that led her to the use of drugs in the first place. She may have quit the drugs, but the problems apparently remain unaddressed, and she's still self-medicating by different means.

Suggestion: talk to a counselor who has experience not just with substance abuse but with your sister's type of psychological/emotional addiction. Involve other family members if possible, and investigate the possibility of an intervention.

[EstimatedProphet]

44. That's exactly right

She's traded one addiction for another. And in her "worldview" (it's hard not to laugh at calling such a simplistic thing a worldview) everything is a test, so if I actually try to talk about it to her, she'll write me off as a agent of Satan. So, discussion is out.

[okasha]

48. That's why you need a therapist on board.

An intervention isn't a discussion. It's a way to make the addict see that she's harming herself and others because she's lost control to the addiction. It's quite usual for the addict to see an intervention as an attack at first--the only thing that's slightly peculiar in your sister's case is that she'll attribute the attack initially to Satan as well as to you and other participants. Don't try "talking to" your sister yourself; get a professional involved.

[EstimatedProphet]

53. Interesting point

[patrice]

72. I'll second that motion.

She may be seriously Depressed.

[jgraz]

38. Or instead of praying, you could actually DO something

This is the part that bugs me about these Christian "truths". Your sister is in crisis, and suggesting that you pray and "God willing" she'll get better should be recognized for the absolute nonsense that it is.

If you want to help your sister, do it -- if you want to ignore her, that's also your choice. But don't let the Christians con you into thinking that choosing the latter is somehow the morally superior position.

[Goblinmonger]

89. Dude, you and I

have GOT to go out drinking sometime. I'm sure it would be a blast.

[Realityhack]

106. worst advice ever...

"Pray for your sister, and God willing, in time, she'll come round to a more balanced way of thinking."

I second the idea of getting a theripist involved.

[Crunchy Frog]

22. It must be very painful and frustrating to have to deal with that.

Especially painful that it's with such a close family member.

All I can think is that maybe you can be some sort of a positive influence on her kids and grandkids. It sounds like the kids are at least educable, which the sister probably is not. The sister must have some deep seated need to be addicted to something, and I guess this is at least not as unhealthy as the drugs.

At any rate, you have my deepest sympathy, though I know that's not much help.:(

[cosmik debris]

28. On the brighter side

The kids WILL rebel. There is no doubt about that because all kids rebel. And this gives them a good reason to rebel and a better place to "find themselves" when the rebellion is over. Time is on your side.

[xchrom]

34. alcoholics and drug addicts often have no interior locus --

and so a religion which will do their thinking for them provides a substitute for that lack.

it is a mental illnes associated with addiction -- i.e. addicts have an extremely low tolerance for emotional pain.

religion like drugs can provide a way for the individual not to have reflect on their interior life -- beyond the physical disease that is addiction their the whole emotional psychological disorder that needs attending to and the development of an interior life that provides for a direction in the world.

it's a difficult thing -- but i have to say -- and i'm a christian -- i would avoid her.

[EstimatedProphet]

45. That's the conclusion I've come to

I can't bring her back to reality. She doesn't want to come back. She's a lotus-eater. So, I just have to stay away when I can.

[pecwae]

35. K&R

This is a good example of trading one addiction for another. This has to be a very difficult situation for you and your family. I'm sorry.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

36. My husband worked for a guy like that once

He'd been heavy into drugs and spousal abuse, and he found Jesus and joined a fundamentalist church. He hired my husband to work for him because my husband agreed that he didn't like to have pictures of scantily clad women around and didn't like cussing. The guy asked my husband what he thought of Jesus. My husband asked, "Do you mean the historical Jesus or the Christ Spirit?" The guy came unglued and said that Jesus was the only God there ever was, which really didn't make too much sense, since it implied that he didn't think Jesus ever lived (an odd view, even for a fundamentalist!).

Anyhoo, there was another guy working there who wore his fundamentalism on his sleeve, hired about the same time. When business got slow, the owner kept this fellow and let my husband go. About three months later, my husband got a call from the owner--seems his "good Christian" employee was trying to get workman's comp and was also sueing him for a back injury he claimed he got on the job. My husband remembered the fellow had told him he'd gotten hurt at home and had asked for the name of a chiropractor a week or so before the alleged incident happened. The owner got out of the claim and suit--and never thanked my husband for his time and his honesty.

[Meshuga]

42. Some lack of integrity!

That story shows how faith does not make one a moral individual. Good for your husband for coming forward and helping the owner!

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

59. he did it because it was the right thing to do

and he did it with a smile.

[patrice]

74. I saw a family of RW Christians, generations, working in State Jobs

Recruiting for their church activities in the office where I was contracted.

[TRYPHO]

40. My brother and sister are both addicts

One's in NA, AA, CA and OA; the other in GA. The first thing they HAVE to do on the road to recovery is accept they have no control over their disease/addiction, and that they WILL NEVER get better, just learn to control it. Then they have to give their lives to a higher power, God - which is where they would lose me - I have nothing against God, but I'm not of the opinion He is the exclusive saviour of every addict in the Western World. But, apparently, He is!

So, great, my sister for the last 15 years or so has totally immersed herself in "the fellowship" attending meeting more often than I eat supper; and my brother goes nightly or worries he may lapse, having broken a 20 years good streak with a near-marriage-breaking relapse.

Thankfully they immerse themselves in the organisation that is X Annonymous, and not in any religious organisation; but they're devotion to the fellowship is just fine by me. I'd rather they were alive and "in-fake-control" than dead or penniless. This way they add to society rather than take from it. The only difference being they go to a lot of evening "meetings".

Its what they need, and I am happy for them (and their spouses and kids).

If it had been a march into organised religion I'd have kissed them goodbye and wished them well, but I'd have still been happy they were alive and not dead.

I guess you have to try and take the long term view, the bigger picture to Society, and hope she comes back to reality some time later on, once she's come to terms with her addiction-control a little better.

TRYPHO

[EstimatedProphet]

46. I am happy, on one level

I am decidedly NOT happy on another. Sure, she's not poisoning her body anymore, but she is still an addict. This may very well be the best that can happen, but it's not the best possible. Also, it brings a lot of insight as to why we are becoming so fucked up as a nation.

[TRYPHO]

49. i think you need to see it a stage 1

stage 1 - stop drug/alcohol/food/sex/gambling/whatever addiction and swap it for any NON-HARMFUL one, be it whatever-anonymous, or Jesus, or anything-you-like that doesn't harm yourself of others.
stage 2 - stick at stage one for A LONG TIME
stage 3 - once you're totally fixed on whatever-it-is-you-do-now, try and do it a bit less zealously.
stage 4 - maintain at slightly below zealous levels but open your eyes to other realities.
stage 5 - get something going in your life that might help if you decrease your zealousness further - something normal like a husband, or a job, or an interest.
stage 6 - reduce to non-zealous levels, cry a lot, admit you were wrong to be so zealous, maintain interest in new activity and discover new-outlook on life gradually.
stage 7 - enjoy grandchildren now your children talk to you again.

something like that takes A LONG TIME.

Sit back and be supportive when the opportunity allows, there's nothing to be gained by being negative to her currently. Just show her that Jesus isn't YOUR LIFE, and one day she'll work out that maybe Jesus doesn't need to cotnrol hers.

TRYPHO
(I'm not a Dr*, so I'm only speaking as someone who has had personal experiences but in no way professes any qualification in this area)
(* - I'm much better than a Dr of course - I'm a pharmacist!)

[EstimatedProphet]

52. That would be great, if she moves past stage 2

I don't try to question her either - there's no point. I try and be supportive when I can.

Part of why it is that I brought up this thread is to talk about what we are facing in this country with fundamentalism so on the rise. Our problems aren't over with fanatics by any means, they're just starting. These people are like religious Terminators. they don't quit until they have what they want, and what they want is dominion over all people.

[TRYPHO]

57. Well, thats another problem entirely...

I can't comment on the rise of fundamentalism. I can only speak on addictions. How they overlap is a cruel twist of fate, that one group finds such a use out of the other.

I've always said when speaking of fundamentalist Arabs that if you gave the children Satelittle TV, a credit card and free porn channels (at 18) they wouldn't be fundamentalist for very long; but I imagine the US Fundies have access to all these things, they just choose to ignore them, so my argument fails for them.

Hmmmm...guess I can't solve the worlds troubles in one night EstimatedProphet, have to see what I can think of whilst I sleep.

My thoughts are with you,

TRYPHO

[Name removed]

63. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TRYPHO]

76. A very mature comment Morgana LaFey but...

you are saying it to an audience unfamiliar with the deeper concept/s of addiction. I used to attend meetings and I still find it hard to understand what the fuck I have wrong with me when my brother and sister have the problems. It's not that I disagree - you and the GamAnon people are dead f right, hit the nail on the head, hit the bullseye full on - BUT, it doesn't mean its easy to understand.

Perhaps you could explain in more simple terms how to
(a) drop the judgment FAST and TOTALLY
(b) start learning something about addiction and
(c) start working on YOURSELF.
--
Seems EVERYONE on this forum could do with a bit of (a), I'd be interested to know if there's a DECENT website for(b), and what you might suggest for (c), since I'm always up for some self-improvement.

Yours in anticipation of enlightenment

TRYPHO

[beam me up scottie]

84. Mature??? Her words: "GET A LIFE -- preferably your own."

You seem to think she is some kind of expert, with that kind of disposition, I hope the hell she isn't a counselor.

[TRYPHO]

92. Well my first response came out so nasty I re-wrote it...

And on the re-write it sorted of transmogrified into an opportunity for me to see whats what. The original comments do come across with all the usual concepts of GamAnon that I am familiar with, just with a complete lack of pleasantry and, given the comments in her posting about politeness and so forth, I found hers rude and supercilious. But I wanted to offer her a chance to improve her standing since she does sound like she knows what she's talking about, she's just fallen in her own trap of respsonding emotionally without managine to re-write a more polite reply like I did. My first response really was nasty though, so I'd have fallen into that trap too - which would have made a nice thread of stupidity on its own.

Still hoping for a response from her that offers clarity and assistance.

You might be surprised yet.

TRYPHO

[jgraz]

100. Don't hold your breath waiting for a response

Her post has all the hallmarks of hit-and-run spewage from a frustrated crank with an axe to grind. Too bad she had to take it out on a decent and sincere OP like this one.

[tavalon]

93. Whether she is right or not

She is telling him he is codependent. Mayhaps he is, mayhaps he isn't. You can find plenty about the tendency of family members of addicts to engage in the obsessive attendance to the addicts problems by looking up codependence.

I see the OP as a rant and frustration with his sister's religion addiction, not an obsession with her. But we are all seeing just a slice of all of our lives here, so no real way of knowing one way or the other.

[TRYPHO]

94. well that sort of sums up my point, that I cant really work out why I've got a problem

when my bro and sis have addictions. But these clever people explained it to me so well when I was there that I accepted the problem, and had to act accordingly. My Dad really took it to heart and years later, when I had a business go arse upwards because of someone else's obvious action, he quite happily let me go bankrupt because he believed it was in my best interests to learn from my mistake the hard way, and that his helping me would only be "enabling" me. Great.

Still, it has taught me a thing or two about my Dad.

I aint bitter though, he was weird long before that :-)

TRYPHO

[tavalon]

99. Well, see, that's the thing

It isn't so black and white as they tell us it is in CoDA. I spent 2 years going to plenty of meetings and it helped me immensely but eventually I had to move on because the answers were too simplistic and I figured out that I needed to use my brain and my heart more efficiently. I still fight the enabling bug but I also have seen plenty of situations where helping someone in need, if done correctly, isn't actually enabling. It's a subtle art that CoDA started me on the path to learning but it didn't, in itself, have all the answers.

[TRYPHO]

130. well, you see, the other thing is...

If I hadn't have gone there would have been a lot of concepts that I would never have fathomed by myself. They are very clever, deep, and useful concepts. The thing is though, that "non-addicts" (nearly said "normal people") can go along, learn some stuff, then get on with their lives. Those that are "addicted" by nature seem to struggle with just living - they need "more" or "other".

As I said my brother was in GA - I used to love gambling with him, at the bookies or playing poker online. There was real cameraderie. The shame is he couldn't handle it - found losing frustrating - and winning was never BIG enough. Whereas I do it for fun, just for the pleasure of it. I don't get sucked in - frankly I don't really try and win - I'm crap! (well, I'm alright, but I'm working a not-for-profit gambling strategy currently).

So, he's in the fellowship, and the sis in the fellowship. And then I plod long wondering how come my wierdo-parents didn't ruin me :-)

Now, I've been entirely selfish getting my own angst off my chest, I hope my sharing has added some benefit to the thread and the OP in particular - the shame is you can't really get updates here.

Take care of yourselves people, the balance of electrochemicals in your brain depends heavily on whether you've eaten enough chocolate or caffiene to cope with tomorrow.

TRYPHO

[Name removed]

82. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[EstimatedProphet]

88. You're one to talk about getting a life

Take your own advice. Quit trying to spin what I wrote into what you want it to mean.

[Dorian Gray]

98. Trying not to say WTF to this post...

I think that you may have a seed of truth buried underneath all that judgement. But it is obfuscated by the anger and rankor in which you respond to the OP. I'm whirling around to actually make sense of your post, MLF. The OP may be a little too involved, but this is a public message board, and I'd actually think it was a more positive thing to vent here rather than to vent to family and friends who might be more meddlesome.

[Realityhack]

108. Not to mention

that this ties in well with other descussions we have had here. Especialy with respect to what the daughter said about the US being a christian nation and the OP's comment that these people did not live in reality any more.

I think the accusation that the OP must be self medicating is unfounded. There might *possibly* be *some* truth to the idea of co-dependence in this case *if* the OP is over-involved which we have absolutely no reason to suspect from the actual post

[Dorian Gray]

109. You are right...

the only seed that I think could have sprouted is the idea that it wouldn't help to be overly concerned or involved with the actions of an addict. It would cause more heartbreak for the family member. I know this because we have an addict (drug and alcohol) in our family. There are times we (my family) need to divorce ourselves from her actions. It's painful, and of course we are concerned. But after years of multiple hospitalizations due to her addictions, there's little we can do.

I do believe the OP's concern is fine. I don't think he went overboard with his concern, and I truly hope my last post didn't infer that.

[EstimatedProphet]

116. Thanks

And actually, i don't feel like I am 'over-involved'. I don't see them but yearly, at best. If anything, I am under-involved. I don't have any choice in it; too many miles and too much time away has made me more distant that I would like to be. I hope I can change some of that, for the kids, and their kids.

[Dorian Gray]

122. Well, I wish you the best....

I know it's extraordinarily difficult watching a loved one travel down a path that we know is wrong for them and all around them. So, my heart goes out to you. You are obviously concerned and love your sister very much.

[Name removed]

107. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tblue37]

43. Back in 1973 a stuedent told me,

"I used to be f***ked up on drugs and alcohol, but now I am f**ked up on Jesus."

[jgraz]

50. Arguments aside, I wish you all the best with this situation

Just remember, you don't necessarily need to take this on this burden all by yourself.

[EstimatedProphet]

54. Thanks

[patrice]

56. How do we nominate a thread for "kicking and recommending"?

Or who is it that does that?

[Hissyspit]

86. At the bottom of the original post, click "recommend for Greatest Page" n/t

[patrice]

58. The physical characteristics of "emotion" are mostly Similar and just

have different Trigger-names (love, hate, anger, spirituality, sex, psychosis, temperament, Religion, happiness, Race etc. . . Learned and Instinctual, e.g. Fear, Spatial proprioceptive, Perceptual etc. ) , i.e. Sets Stimulus Response patterns resulting in a background of things such as muscles, blood flow and increased pulse and breathing, body arousing chemical states associated with various biologically and socially contextual semantic labels.

[usregimechange]

65. It is a common cross-addiction, better than some but all are not

good. We need balance.

[Miss Chybil]

75. If this is what it takes for her to stay sober, so be it.

Her kids are grown and have the responsibility to set their own boundaries with her. If they don't and their kids "suffer," one day it will be their turn to set their own boundaries.

It's much easier to get rid of a fundie at the door than a crackhead in the closet.

[eridani]

78. Don't think that what she is doing is even religion, let alone--

--Christianity. Sounds more like sociopathology tricked out as religion.

[jgraz]

101. A spurious distinction

How is her "sociopathology" qualitatively different from most Christians? It seems she's just spending an inordinate amount of time and energy following the same practices that more moderate Christians reserve for Sundays and holidays.

[eridani]

103. Don't know that most Christians use "faith" as an excuxe--

--for doing whatever they feel like doing. A lot of fundies do, though.

[Dorian Gray]

110. Yeah, because on my Sundays and Holidays

I go on and on about how, if it's raining or storming, God is purposefully cleaning out the riff raff.

[jgraz]

119. No, you just pretend to eat flesh and drink blood

and pray to three gods which are reallly one god (or is it one god that's really three) and marvel at the fact that an omniscient, omnipotent being screwed up his own creation so badly that he had to send part of himself down to die in order to fix things.

After that, the storm bit sounds practically scientific.

[Dorian Gray]

123. I don't pretend to do anything

and your obnoxiousness is the reason why there are flame wars regarding religion on this site.

[jgraz]

125. yeah, that was a bit over-snarky

Though I think the flame wars will do just fine without my help ;)

[Dorian Gray]

127. We can all be snarky at times....

God knows (ahem!) that I've been.

Seriously, you are right about the flame wars, though the R/T seems to be on a slight upswing.

[illinoisprogressive]

102. It's an addiction to replace another addiction

It gives people a kinda high. I have seen some of them who go into the tongues and roll around on television and noticed how it must give them a high. Like excerise can do.
With an addiction problem to begin with and not really facing and coping with it's illness aspect, she got God and got high.

[Prophet 451]

114. Sorry about your sis

Even sorrier about her kids.

I've always found it interesting, how many fundies either are or claim to have been massively screwed-up personalities before they became fundies and how it's always a very extreme variety of Xianity they convert to. Admittedly, there's a few holes in the theory (nothing a decent research grant wouldn't cure) but there's definately some kind of common mindset there.

Admittedly, a devil worshipper isn't going to have much time for Christianity in the first place but if we have to have Christians, I'll take Fred Rogers over PatJerryFred RobertsonFalwellPhelps every time.

[EstimatedProphet]

118. There's been some interesting responses on this thread

A lot of misunderstandings too, which I attribute to my not really being able to explain my feelings as well as I would like.

For starters, I'm not co-dependent about this. I rarely see my family anymore, or talk to them as much as I'd like, simply because I don't have the opportunity. Also, I don't try AT ALL to butt into my sister's decisions, as some people have accused me of. If she wants to live her life this way, it's her choice, and she really is somewhat better for it - but not as better as she could be if she weren't still living out addictive behavior. that was the point of what I was trying to say, in part.

There are a couple points I was surprised didn't generate more discussion though:

1) My niece is being taught that Christianity and America are the same thing by this church, and anything other than what they define as Christianity is paganism. I think this is a dangerous idea. We have a lot of problems heading our way with this kind of sentiment, and I think it is more prevalent than people realize (I hope not, but I fear it is). the consequences of this kind of thought are chilling: according to this line of reasoning if you take it far enough, not belonging to their church is not only heresy, it's treason.

2) I can't help but think about how my sister makes her decisions, and compare it to how Bush makes his. for the both of them, once it's made, it's set in stone. there is absolutely no possibility of error in their minds, so there is never a need to re-evaluate or have alternatives regardless of the consequences. If my sister makes a decision and it doesn't work, it's because God didn't want it to work, not because she didn't think it through. I see exactly the same thing in Bush.

Anyway, thanks for providing an ear.

[Dorian Gray]

124. I suspect, regarding your second point,

that your sister's church doesn't speak highly of Free Will. Therefore, they most likely believe that their decisions are all guided by God (which you seem to have made clear in the OP), and because of that, they can not be wrong. It is my theological belief that we are all free to make decisions on our own. God allows us our freedom in order to choose to do right or wrong, therefore, we must always evaluate our actions and choices. I can see where someone who believes that they couldn't do something distinct from God's Will, however, would fall into that "set in stone" mentality.

That is a dangerous mentality, as well, as you totally lose sight or care for how your actions affect other human beings.

The good of it all is that you seem to believe that she is better off now than when she was using drugs. The fervor of a new converter should die down. Eventually. It seems weird to hope that it will, but like in all things, excess is not good.

[EstimatedProphet]

132. That's a pretty good summation of her church

It goes like this: the only way to be saved and go to heaven is to give yourself to Christ. When you give yourself to Christ, your decisions are all made for you. So, if you don't give yourself to Christ, you do have free will, but everything you do is evil because you haven't given yourself to Christ. There is no room whatsoever for someone to go to heaven if they don't let Christ make all their decisions for them, because that's part of giving yourself to Christ.

Now, as far as her being newly converted, I wish. She's been like this for over a decade.

[Zhade]

126. "Revelation, revolution, I see through your Christ Illusion!" - Slayer

Brutal song, but so right on.

[TRYPHO]

131. I'm just wondering how many of us on DU are addicts

Is there an addiction to online forums? Is it OK because no-one gets hurt, or high, or poor?

Perhaps we should all click off and spend more time with our parents and kids and less time arguing about other peoples addictions?

Ultimately I think we are all learning, all the time, here and in the real world. And sometimes you need to hear a few sad stories or good stories to be reminded of your own place in the cosmos. And what effect you can have on a very small corner of it.

This thread has reminded me of a lot of things I had forgotten, and I'm looking forward to speaking with my brother and sister tomorrow if I can. And my parents (but my Dad is still wierd).

TRYPHO

[Zhade]

133. I mean no disrespect, but it sounds like she'd be better off with the Jack and blow.

Which is my way of saying WOW, is she ever messed up.

You have my sincere sympathy!

[jgraz]

134. You're right in one sense

There are treatment centers that will help you with alcoholism and drug addiction. AFAIK, there is nothing to help you kick the religion habit. What we need are some Christian deprogramming centers where people can check in for a month and learn to follow a program of absolute abstinence from religion.

[Danger Mouse]

139. Wouldn't be a bad idea,

now that I think about it...

[Danger Mouse]

136. Replacing drug addiction with God addiction...

...it happens so often...they go off to 'find jesus'...and typically end up turning into total fanatics...a sad state of affairs, really...

[NMMNG]

147. Scary

That "addiction transference" phenomenon is a major reason I'm not fond of the AA/NA format, and why I'm adamantly opposed to mandating people attend such groups. These people are no better off "on Jesus" (and sometimes are worse off) than they were on the substance(s) they were previously on. Worse yet they often try to spread their new addiction to others (or even force it on them) in a way that they wouldn't do with the substance addictions.