Some questions for the atheists here.

[Marr]

I'd be curious to know how you came to be an atheist, and whether you consider yourself a strong or weak atheist. Were you raised in some religion, and eventually decide that you didn't believe it? If so, how long did that journey take? Were you simply raised without any religion?

Do you find it more difficult to discuss religion with people who still practice the religion in which you were raised? For instance, if you were raised Christian, do you have more difficulty discussing religion with a Christian than you do with a Buddhist? Did you make the switch directly to atheism, or did you segue through some other faith?

Anyway, I'm not leading anywhere with these questions-- I'm just curious about others experiences.

For myself, I was raised without any religion whatsoever. Never even went inside a church until I agreed to be an usher at a friend's wedding when I was 20 years old. I minored in Art History in college, and had to learn all the Christian mythology at that late date to keep up with the course work. It seemed every bit as exotic and foreign to me as the Greek mythology did, ha-ha.

Most of my friends would probably tell you I pester them a bit about their religions, and I've tried to tag along to just about every type of service I can. I've been to black churches, white churches, one in southern Mexico (which was not what I was expecting at all)... some Muslim ceremonies, Catholic... even a couple of monasteries (Buddhist and Christian). I've no desire to find a spiritual home, I just find the rituals interesting and the people are usually very welcoming and pleasant to meet.

[ccharles000]

1. I am agnostic.

I was raised southern Baptist. I stopped going to church because it was boring. I was thinking of going back to church but quickly changed my mind. When the preachers wife was informed by my mother I am gay and that I have need to have an exorcism.

[Marr]

6. Exorcism!

Yikes. I think I'd be tempted to schedule the thing out of morbid curiosity.

[EvilAL]

14. Your mother requested it?

That's the way I read it anyway.

[ccharles000]

27. No my mom was seeking advice from her about my being gay.

[John Gauger]

44. Why her?

She clearly doesn't know jack shit. What kind of help did your mother think she was going to get from this lady?

What is this tendency in our society to seek the help of shamans and witch-doctors instead of trained professionals?

[PassingFair]

48. It is free. n/t

[EvilAL]

2. Beats me,

I just stopped believing in it somewhere along the way. Not sure if I ever really did even as a kid. I was confirmed when I was 12 years old, attended sunday school for 6 years. My parents weren't religious like some others, just wanted me to go through the motions I guess. I didn't believe in the stories I was taught and all that like Moses, Red Sea, Noah's Ark, Adam and Eve. They always seemed fake. Once I grew out of the Santa Claus thing, that was probably it for me for Jesus as well.
I can't pinpoint it though.

[Marr]

8. Confirmed? Were you Catholic, or Lutheran... one of those?

The Catholic scene's pretty fascinating from the outside, I have to say. And they've got the best stadiums.

[EvilAL]

11. Catholic

It all seems weird to me from the outside.

[Marr]

15. From what I hear, it seems weird from the inside as well.

I can't even imagine what it'd be like to have to go into a confessional booth in your teens. I dated someone who told me she used to make sins up so as not to seem boring to the priest. lol.

[EvilAL]

16. hahah ya

I never went to confesssion as a teen, after my last go round I pretty much didn't go back except for weddings and funerals. I do remember saying shit to the preist about swearing or lieing and then having to go pretend to say all those hail marys and our fathers for a few minutes.
I've been interested in the Jehovah's Witnesses lately.. not joining them.. but what they are about. Weird shit going on there too.

[varkam]

3. Thems a whole lotta questions.

I'll do my best to give my answers to them.

I'd be curious to know how you came to be an atheist, and whether you consider yourself a strong or weak atheist. Were you raised in some religion, and eventually decide that you didn't believe it? If so, how long did that journey take? Were you simply raised without any religion?

I came to be an atheist via being a Baptist. My parents were pretty hands-off with religion; they pretty much allowed me to determine for myself what I wanted to believe in. I fell in with some neighborhood kids who wanted me to come to their church, and I did. I was a regular, god-fearing Baptist (I can even remember telling my father that he was going to go to hell because he didn't go to church).

I'll spare you the boring details, but eventually the problem of evil struck me as...well...a problem. How could a just and loving god allow there to be such suffering, pain, death, destruction, and evil in this world? That was the question that, for me, really planted the seeds of doubt. The more I questioned, the less I believed. The more I read, the less I feared. It was a long process for me, but in college I came out openly as an atheist and haven't looked back since.

As far as the strong / weak atheism divide, I consider myself a strong atheist insofar as the Christian god is concerned in that I don't believe that such a being exists just as married bachelors do not exist. With respect to the multitude of other gods that have either fallen by the wayside or are yet to be dreamed up, I am a weak atheist.

Do you find it more difficult to discuss religion with people who still practice the religion in which you were raised? For instance, if you were raised Christian, do you have more difficulty discussing religion with a Christian than you do with a Buddhist? Did you make the switch directly to atheism, or did you segue through some other faith?

I don't find it difficult at all. In many ways, I find it fun (which is I suppose why I hang around R/T). I get into discussions all the time with people who think differently than I do, including Baptists who tell me I'm going to hell.

I hope all that helps you out somehow.

Oh, and as far as your own experiences: I can really identify with what you said about going to services. I, too, think that at worst they are interesting, and at best can be genuinely beautiful (the last Catholic service I went to springs to mind).

:toast: Cheers!

[MindMatter]

4. There came a time when I was able to think for muself

And most of what religion puts out there makes no sense whatsoever.

[EvilAL]

7. So you were atheist, then baptist?

or you were nothing, then baptist, which allowed you to later become atheist?

[varkam]

10. I was Baptist, then atheist.

:hi:

[EvilAL]

12. There ya go.

:hi:

[Marr]

9. I've noticed a huge variation in Babtist churches.

They're either totally morose, or they're like a party.

Thanks for your detailed response, btw.

[onager]

103. Baptists--death or dancing!

"Baptists don't have a problem with death. It was all we ever talked about. That, and dancing."

:rofl:

A near-quote (i.e., near as I can remember) from Rapture Ready!: Adventures in the Parallel Universe of Christian Pop Culture by Daniel Radosh.

Very entertaining book, BTW. I laughed out loud many times.

Especially when Radosh did a fake interview with Stephen Baldwin (again, from memory):

You were in "Usual Suspects," which launched the careers of Kevin Spacey and Benicio del Toro. But you followed it up with a Pauly Shore movie. Why on earth did you do that?

Baldwin: God told me to. I ignored my agent and everybody else to do that Pauly Shore movie.

So you get eternal life in Heaven with Jesus, and Benicio got to bang Scarlett Johansson in an elevator.

Let's call that a draw.

[Birthmark]

5. That's a lot of questions!

"I'd be curious to know how you came to be an atheist, and whether you consider yourself a strong or weak atheist."

I read the Bible, started thinking...and here I am, a strong atheist.

"If so, how long did that journey take?"

About a year, year and a half after I rejected Christianity I concluded that there are no gods at all.

"Were you simply raised without any religion?"

Hell, no. Always went to church and all kinds of churches. Mom finally settled on a nice, nutty, fundamentalist church.

"Do you find it more difficult to discuss religion with people who still practice the religion in which you were raised?"

Nah.

"Did you make the switch directly to atheism, or did you segue through some other faith?"

Went agnostic briefly.

[Marr]

13. Were you about college age when you went agnostic?

[Birthmark]

29. I was sixteen.

The irony is I was studying the Bible because I seriously wanted to be a preacher.

[iris27]

107. Seriously? Me too!

I read my way right out of my belief because I felt "called to ministry", was planning on going to seminary after finishing my undergrad, and wanted to find real, logical arguments to "save" my awesome atheist roommate.

Yeah. The more I read, the more I realized there weren't any real, logical arguments for Christianity. She'd been right all along.

[jobycom]

17. Sort of just admitted to myself that I didn't believe anymore.

I grew up on a spiritual quest, I think. I was devoutly Catholic until I was around ten or eleven, and then became Methodist, because I felt that the Catholic rituals weren't answering the questions I was starting to ask. I didn't dislike Catholicism, and at that age I wasn't exactly an emerging Buddha or anything, it was just a vague feeling that Communion and Confession didn't really address the main issues I saw involving right and wrong.

I was a devout Methodist until I was about sixteen. President of my local and regional youth group, sung in choir, memorized the Bible to the point where I was unbeatable at Bible trivia games. Sometime in there I began questioning. Like everything, it probably started with sex. I couldn't understand how something could be a sin until a document was signed, and I couldn't help but notice that not many of the adults I saw in church really seemed to believe it, anyway.

The hypocrisy led me to question what they believed, and ultimately, why I was certain that these people, most of whom weren't as moral as I was, had the right answers in the first place. And at that time, I read Siddhartha, and a little bit of other religions, and realized how similar they were, and how all religions seemed to have good and bad people.

Some of these questions were explicit, others were just vague impulses, but by sixteen, I just felt, just believed, that I wasn't finding the truths I sought by limiting myself to a "believe or perish" mentality, by refusing to question. So I questioned. I tried to understand whether Christianity had to be true, whether it had to be the only religion. I read books that challenged this, not to disprove Christianity, but just to understand what was necessary, and what was just inherited ritual.

When I was 19, I began admitting to myself I didn't believe what I had grown up believing. Within a year or two, I was admitting to friends I was an agnostic (this was still in Mississippi, so there was a penalty to be paid for being too open about it), then by the time I was around 22, maybe, I was openly calling myself agnostic (I had moved to Texas, which, yes, was more open), and admitting to friends I was an atheist. Soon I was just saying I was an atheist.

I never gave up the spiritual quest, in some ways, but I no longer associated it with religion. I looked at all religions, all philosophies, all sciences, looking for what I believed was right, but really looking as much to see what others believed. I didn't feel lost or questing, so much as encouraged that I was on the right path. One of my deciding factors was when I ran across a Joseph Campbell story calling religion a metaphor for all the questions we can't answer and don't know how to ask (I'm paraphrasing). That seemed about right, and it fit in with the Hindu metaphor of ladders, that gods were ladders to get you to the next level, but once there, they were no longer needed.

So that's about where I landed. I haven't gone to church since I was 16, I don't dwell on religion, but I do study it, all religions, at an intellectual level. I think I learn more about people than about gods studying religion, and as far as I can tell, that's why I'm still curious. I'm always tuning my beliefs, but they are minor adjustments.

I don't know what you mean by weak or strong atheist--I don't preach atheism, I don't consider it a religion, I haven't replaced old beliefs with new ones. I just am quite certain that what I believe is right. At the same time, I am absolutely certain that I could be wrong. And overall, I know that there isn't really a difference. There is no god, but there is something--not a being or sentient entity--that god is an answer for. Nature, the Brahman, the woo-wei (not sure how to spell that). As long as it isn't personalized or animated, the answers are as good as anything, I guess. Maybe I'm a Platonist.

It's just not something I worry about defining. Labels are more of an enemy than any religion. All labels are at essence fundamentalism. Still, I call myself atheist, if asked. It's easier than giving a lecture.

As for how I treat my original religion, I respect it, and its followers. I may be more critical of its believers, but that's more from the sense that I can criticize my own culture more than someone else's. I've never been Muslim or Buddhist, so I can't criticize these faiths from the inside, and I can't know them enough to criticize them from the outside. I can criticize the actions of individuals of any faith, but I can't condemn their religions for those actions. Again with the labels--I see individuals more than groups.

More than anyone wants to read, I know! But you asked!

[PassingFair]

49. Thank you, jobycom....

I enjoyed reading about the evolution of an
open mind!

:)

[notadmblnd]

18. Onward Christian soldiers

Immersed in hellfire and brimstone at the age of four. I swear, we were there five of the seven days of the week. It included fellowship dinners on Saturdays, Sundays, and Wednesday services. Twice on Sundays. Included Vacation Bible school, revival meetings, and extra time spent on what ever program they were working on, Christmas, Easter, etc. Candy sales to raise money and choir practice. Services included alter calls (where you had to confess your sins publicly)and testimonials (all the wonderful things that's happened since you were born again), communion and foot washings. This was the Baptist religion, my mother made and wore her little house on the prairie dresses. No skirts above the knee, no pants, and no dancing. I remember, just as you'd start dozing off, down would come the preachers hand on the podium and wake the entire house up. We hated it, always.

Even though I gave up church I didn't really give up believing until later in life, when different groups would come proselytizing at my door. I've always invited them in and spoke with them, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses and Seventh Day Adventists and such. I've only had one question for any of those groups and none have been able to answer. It has to do with god making mistakes and what most Christians have been taught about god and angles and before the creation of humans. So, I've come to the conclusion that either god doesn't exist or he is one sick mother, getting his jollies off on the misery of humankind.

I prefer to believe that god doesn't exist.

[classof56]

50. Wow--your upbringing sounds almost identifical to mine.

I just ran across this thread and felt led (by what I'm not sure) to reply to your post. I'm reading a book by Bart Ehrmann titled "God's Problem" and am finally beginning to understand the reasons for my 70-plus years of emotional turmoil. When all one can view oneself as is a sinner awaiting to be flogged with an iron rod by the God one has served and tried to please and appease all one's life, then one needs to rethink the whole shootin' match. I am the one referred to, and reading Ehrman's book (after his first book "Misquoting Jesus") I am at last getting myself under control. Wish I'd done it eons ago, but never too late I suppose. Glad to get your take on this, and want to let you know I agree. Used to always try to look at things from God's point of view. After all the angst, it's suddenly very simple. If there is a God who's omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent, he/she should really be doing a better job manifesting him/herself to the world he/she created and gives a rip about. I'm now with you--better to believe that god doesn't exist than to spend any more time justifying his/her/its existence and all the anguish that goes along with that. I do not argue this, do not fault believers, and will not make excuses for myself any longer. Lot of freedom in that, lemme tell ya!

Didn't mean to go on for so long. If you read this whole thing, thanks!

Tired Old Cynic

[Evoman]

19. Since the moment of birth, I've been an atheist.

I find religious thinking completely foreign. You'll often find me in this forum, banging my head against the wall trying to understand how people believe such weird things.

My dad was an atheist who never discussed religion, but beat critical thinking skills into me since I was young. He often pointed out propaganda to me, and made me criticize everything I read. That sort of critical thinking suited me I guess, because I've adapted it to every facet of my life. The biggest target of this focus has been myself...I analyze carefully almost every thought and emotion I experience. If I feel angry or sad or feel any other emotion, I put aside the bullshit justification I tell myself and try to be honest. Cognitive psychology was a revelation to me. Every single belief I have, believe it or not, I have tried to tear apart....I accept very little and what I do accept is temporary.

You can imagine how weird I was as a kid. As a young adult, I became more or less disdainful of tradition, or ritual without justification. If someone told me to do something, because "that's just the way it is", it would set me off. I hated that other people bought their own bullshit. I'm still that way today. I'm a lot more easy going...I play the game now. I poise, and pretend, and even let others believe I find this or that meaningful, when in actuality I could care less. I'm honest with myself, but I'm pretty much a chameleon in my life to some degree. A lot of it comes from not wanting to hurt the people I care about.

You can see how this might affect me where religion is concerned. Religion didn't even pass the first smell test. A man who walks on water. Bullshit. A talking snake. Bullshit. Jesus's sacrifice...makes absolutely no sense when you examine it closely. Islam, buddhism, etc all fall into a category of make believe bullshit to me. I find the lack of honesty and self awareness surrounding religion astounding. I might get flamed for this, but when I hear people discussing religious concepts earnestly (for example, in bible study classes) they are like children to me, talking nonsense. For the longest time, I thought people were putting me on. No way they believed it...they must just be doing what I'm doing, lying out loud to fit in. I was horrified when, as a kid, I found out that wasn't true.

Anyhow, that's enough about me and my fucked up head. It's weird, but DU is the only place I have ever been honest about what's going on in my head.


On edit: I also wanted to add one piece of advice from studying my own head. If something you believe makes you happy, than THAT is the thought you need to attack agressively with critical thinking. If your concerned with truth, be afraid of the thoughts that make you happy. They are the most seductive, and the most in need of focused analysis.

[EvilAL]

20. I just let people believe

whatever they want to believe. Sometimes I feel sorry for them, sometimes I don't. I'm not shy about saying God isn't real nor do I try to get myself into a chance to say it. People that know me know and deep down I think a lot of them are too, just they won't fuckin admit it.

[Evoman]

22. So do I. Unless I'm in the right forum to argue.

[EvilAL]

23. When I went to my

friends funeral that had killed herself for unknown reasons it was in a pentecostal church. I had only been there once. They had a dual service with the pentecostal guy doing that side and the catholic guy doing the other side. Penty went first and after a few lines of crap he goes into how she was going to burn in hell and shit like that. I was looking at her parents and brothers waiting for one of them to freak out because I was so angry, even though I don't believe in hell or anything.. to say that at their kid's funeral was crazy. Then catholic guy gets up and says some different crap and says she's going to heaven and stuff and the other family was getting visibly distraught by this. I wanted to vomit.

[Evoman]

24. Ugh. Something similar happened at my cousins funeral.

Not the hell stuff, but we sure got a sermon. She was agnostic atheist, and a big percentage of the family is atheist too. But I grin and bore it, because it obviously made some of the religious family members (her mother, for example) feel better.

To be honest, I didn't even want to be at the funeral. It didn't do anything for me, and I hate ceremonies. Especially somber ones. I went because I was expected to, but I didn't need to be there. I loved my cousin, and was distraught about her death, but I felt so much better once I left the vicinity of all the grieving people (and a fair bunch of fucking rubber necking, fake ass people who didn't even care about my cousin).

I'm very sorry to hear that your experience was so terrible. That pentecostal guy should have gotten the crap beat out of him for that shit. Religion is so stupid and causes so much unnessecary pain.

[EvilAL]

25. They said after that

it was hard to hold it back, but they did. I was going to walk out, but didn't want to disrespect her parents, even though I think now they would have thanked me for doing it.

[John Gauger]

43. No, you're absolutely right.

It is downright bizarre to watch people who actually believe their own bullshit. Sometimes I still wonder if they're not putting me on. It's, to me at least, like going to see a show when I see people pretending that they understand and believe in the Trinity - no matter how wrapped up in it I get, I keep saying somewhere in the back of my mind that it's all fake.

[uberllama42]

21. I became an atheist when I started thinking critically about the world around me

My parents are not religious, but I picked up the notion that the bible was true from somewhere. I guess I thought the Pope was infallible and all that other Catholic stuff, but I didn't put that much thought into it. The more I learned about science, the more I found that many of the stories I believed in contradicted evidence. I dealt with cognitive dissonance for about a year and a half before I came to the point that I couldn't believe the supernatural details anymore. Once I didn't believe in the creation anymore, the rest of the Christian narrative didn't make any sense. No Original Sin, no need for salvation. I had to let it go.

I consider myself a weak atheist. There is no evidence to support belief in God, but absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. I suppose you could describe me as a Tooth-Fairy-agnostic: it is impossible to know that there is absolutely no Tooth Fairy, but there is as much evidence for TF as there is for God.

I find that it is more difficult to discuss religion with people who believe more strongly, regardless of what their beliefs are. Stronger belief necessarily coincides with greater resistance to evidence, which makes discussion difficult.

I never moved to another religion because I couldn't see any more evidence for anything else.

Thanks for asking.

[mike_c]

26. my answers....

I'm a strong atheist if by that you mean someone who utterly rejects belief in supernatural beings, religious myths, etc. Not only do I reject them, but I have a degree of contempt for them that I'm completely comfortable admitting and discussing. I consider most religious "faith" a form of mental illness.

I guess that makes me a "strong atheist."

I was raised in a fundamentalist christian family that remains deeply religious. My parents once quit the Southern Baptist Church because it was "too liberal." That was the old SBC, but STILL! My family has run a prison ministry, christian home schooled bunches of kids, done missionary work in Central America, etc. However, I never believed any of it-- not from the very beginning. I was a challenge for a steady progression of pastors and youth ministers until my parents simply gave up (and I left home WAY earlier than most kids anyway, partly to escape the religious atmosphere). I have little contact with any of them any longer and haven't for many years. Anyway, there was no "journey" for me-- I never accepted religious beliefs, most particularly christianity.

I don't have any difficulty discussing religion as long as the other party is willing to engage in an honest discussion. I find that many folks find that really difficult, but I'm willing. I do refrain from showing disrespect for the religious convictions of the relatively few friends of mine that are religious, though as I said, I do consider their faith delusional. I just don't tell them that unless they ask, but I'm not shy about sharing it if they want an honest exchange.

[Random_Australian]

28. Raised with all sorts of religions around. My parents never spoke of it,

but knowing them I don't think it is a stretch to presume one is an atheist and the other is an agnostic.

My brother is a devout Catholic, and my cousins/aunts to whom I am close are young-earth creationists, with my peers were a mix of christians and agnostic/don'tcares.

Two processes formed my atheism. I was agnostic when I first started thinking about religion, then recognised Psalm 14:1 as written by humans (Or at least it uses heuristics that a 'God' would not need) and stopped believing in God.

Later, I was off challenging the foundations of my beliefs (so as to make solid foundations) and eventually came up with well-tested ideas about falsifiability and null composition that are just about equal to implicit (to you, weak or agnostic) atheism.

Note: I tend to use implicit/explicit atheism rather than weak/strong or agnostic/gnostic because is seems to be the most accurate way of saying it.

As for discussing religion, I am quite fine to discuss just about anything with just about anyone.:)

[More Than A Feeling]

30. My answers

I'd be curious to know how you came to be an atheist, and whether you consider yourself a strong or weak atheist. Were you raised in some religion, and eventually decide that you didn't believe it? If so, how long did that journey take? Were you simply raised without any religion?

I was raised in a secular household. Due to a combination of guilt, loneliness, rebellion against perceived ills associated with a secular life, and unfamiliarity with apologetics and atheistic responses, I converted to the liberal American Baptist denomination when I was 18. I was an American Baptist Christian for four years. At the end of those four years, I had done some reading in Biblical archaeology and modern guru movements which gave me new perspective on the Bible and new questions to ask. As a result, I deconverted.

Since then, I have experimented with a variety of labels and approaches to a universe where god belief is unjustified. Examples: Buddhism, agnosticism, secular humanism, naturalism, pantheism, atheism. Right now I am trying out Realism, the so-called "Church of Reality." I still respond to questions directed at atheists, for clarity's sake. I consider myself a strong atheist, because that is the most logical position. I am a strong atheist with respect to all gods.

It's easier for me to talk to Christians about faith, because that is the faith I know the most about.

[RebelOne]

31. When I was a child, I went to a Southern Baptist church.

I attended church, Sunday school, vacation Bible school, the whole bit. Then when I was a teenager, I became an Episcopalian, had confirmation, first communion and all those rituals. And then just sort of dropped out after a few years. My ex-husband was a non-practicing Catholic. My kids were raised as Catholics. When I hit my 40s, I woke up and decided religion was not for me because I came to the realization that there was no such supernatural being as god. Before that, I even experimented with witchcraft. My daughter is also now an atheist and I did not influence her in any way.

[TechBear_Seattle]

32. I came to being an apatheist Humanist through reason

Apatheism:

Theism - I believe there is a God.
Weak Atheism - I do not believe there is a God.
Strong Atheism - I believe there is no God.
Agnosticism - I believe I cannot know if there is a God.
Apatheism - I believe I will have another cookie.

With me, it was reason. When I was a kid, we went to Sunday School at a Congregationalist church mainly so our parents could have some time alone for themselves (they did not go to church.) After my parents divorced, that stopped. Eventually, I came to see that if we were meant to hold a particular set of beliefs, God(s) would have made that set of beliefs obvious. When I look around, the only consistent set of beliefs I see are the basic Humanist principles of being moderate in how you live your life and remember that we all are connected to one another. With that, the whole question of whether or not God exists and, if so, what specific God should be worshipped, becomes irrelevant.

[varkam]

35. I like that definition of apatheism!

:rofl:

[regularguy]

33. I don't think that I ever really believed.

Grew up going to synagogue, but my parents were more or less liberal and secular. As soon as they stopped making me go I stopped going. Haven't missed it for one second. Until recently I never really considered myself an atheist particularly. But in recent years I've felt compelled to choose sides due to the rise in influence of the Christian (and other faiths' as well) right wing, and to a lesser extent the irrational (IMHO) "spirituality" of my ideological comrades. I just have absolutely no interest in the supernatural.

I do love discussing religion. I find it fascinating. I love reading the Bible, particularly the King James version. I guess when it comes to religion I'm part of the loyal opposition. ;)

[PassingFair]

34. Raised and confirmed Episcopalian, outspoken atheist since age 12...converted to FSM last year...

:P

Outed agnostic at age 7, but went to church
because my mom MADE us.

GREAT minister for confirmation classes took
me aside and told me I wasn't crazy, just to
listen and learn and then go my own way.

I LOVED him.

My mother continues to be a "C of E",
Daughter of the British Empire and all
that rot...

My father was an atheist his whole life
(including his brave death with ALS).

Guess I was a "half-breed"

[SidDithers]

36. I grew up without any religion and never felt the need for it...

And while I used to be fairly tolerant of most religious thought, I find myself becoming less and less tolerant, the more that I'm exposed to it. I'm starting to regard religiosity (though not faith, per se) as a deep character flaw.

Now, if God started healing amputees, I might be inclined to change my outlook.

Sid

[Rob H.]

37. Was raised church- and religion-free

My parents decided to let my brother and me decide for ourselves whether we wanted any part of religion. By the time I started being exposed to it, I realized that it didn't make a lot of sense to me. I'm always a little baffled when people talk about their faith to me because the idea of being religious seems so alien to my way of looking at the world. I'm okay with standing in awe of what is without having to believe there's some grand designer pulling the strings behind the scenes.

I self-identified as agnostic for a while because I live in the Bible Belt, but then just decided that I'd get over feeling intimidated and tell people I'm an atheist. If the fundagelicals around here with their Jesus fish plaques, 'W' stickers and deeply-rooted fear of science get bent out of shape about it, fuck 'em. It's none of their business how I live my life, anyway, when it comes right down to it.

[Taverner]

38. Long process starting with my leaving the Evangelical Christian Faith

Back in 1989

I was raised in Evangie Schools and suffered a lot of emotional, physical and (even) sexual abuse at times at the hands of those monsters.

But I always thought there was a God out there who was watching over me. Going over the details over and over again for almost 20 years, I finally came to the realization when I was 30-something that there is no God, no watcher, and that's OK.

We are animals. No shame in that.

[YankeyMCC]

39. Short version

I was always an atheist except for a brief period after joining the Air Force.

I never called myself an atheist nor gave it much thought until several years ago. It basically came down to this.

Growing up I just assumed everyone or at least most people were like me and knew that the stories in their religion were just that stories and didn't take it to seriously.

When I recognized the hypocrisies of my own choices - going to church but not believing, and the weakness of the religion I was brought up in (catholicism) and what I saw in the religions of the people I knew as a means of providing an ethical guideline I 'accepted' or perhaps embraced my atheism is the way to say it. I have since found much more comfort and effective guidance in secular, natural world based ethics.

[frogmarch]

40. I was brought up in

a Christian home. My mom was a staunch Presbyterian. I don't know what my dad's beliefs were with regards to religion. He read my sister and me children's bible stories at bedtime, but he always wanted us to discuss them. When I was 4 or maybe 5, I pooh-poohed some of them, including the Jesus-performing-amazing-miracles stories and the story about Noah's ark, and my dad commended me for it. He said to never be afraid to question things that don't appear to make sense. I took his advice and have been comfortable with atheism ever since.

I have trouble discussing religion with anyone. Almost invariably, at some point early on I say, "All religions are bullshit!" That pretty much ends it.

[New Dawn]

41. I was around 10 years old when I became an atheist

I was sent to a private "Seventh Day Adventist" school from grades K-12. The entire "Seventh Day Adventist" religion revolves around believing that the Earth is literally only 6000 years old, because of the belief that Yahweh literally "rested" on "the Seventh day", after creating the universe 6000 years ago. I had some doubts before the age of 10 though, but then I finally bought a book about fossils that ended my belief in it. Unfortunately I was still stuck in that cult school until I graduated from high school.

Among some of my memorable experiences there, I was publicly denounced as a "Satanist" in front of my 4th grade class, when it was discovered that a friend and I were reading children's horror novels (not during class, but simply reading them during our own time). In high school, a girl in my class was sent to a homeless shelter by her parents for having a boyfriend who was a Baptist (i.e. a dreaded "Sunday worshiper"). And of course, the "preacher's kids" and children of wealthy contributors to the church/cult school were always given preferential treatment by the teachers.

I think that Protestant parochial schools should be banned. They are simply unfair environments for youth to be placed in, because the children of the clergy and wealthy contributors to the churches receive better treatment than the rest of the students. "Preacher's kids" do not get punished when they are mean to other students. They also always seemed to get better grades than most other kids as well. It was BS.

[John Gauger]

42. My parents were not religious, but I was once a believer.

I believed anything I was told - Santa Claus, Eater Bunny, fairies, dragons, you name it. When I was about six my aunt told me some bible stories, which I of course believed were all true - nobody had ever presented the idea that anything in the bible could possibly be false. But I remember thinking that God was a big bully, especially in the story of the Tower of Babel. If all the world's people were working together in perfect harmony, and all for the greater glory of god, why did he want to stop them? And make by making the different nations he made war possible. But I still accepted it as true.

I have always had a great love of science. The way the world really is fascinates me. For all those years I read about biology and astrology and the like, and I heard these stories, but since I never gave great consideration the biblical stuff, I never really saw the contradictions. Until one day I guess I was about twelve, and I was thinking about the Big Bang and modern cosmology, and I realized that it made so much more sense than Genesis. After that it was pretty much one story after another going out the window. None of them made a lick of sense. And then I was exposed to different ideas, to other religions. I saw that all other religions were clearly made up, so how could Christianity not be? And what about all those defunct myths of ancient civilizations? Surely all religious belief is equally true, which means that they are all false. Then I was exposed to the Enlightenment, taking a scientific approach to morality and society, and I found it to be so much better than the whims and caprices of imaginary friends.

I find discussing religion with Christians by far the most difficult, but I have no idea why. They seem to take offense at everything.

I am a strong atheist. (I have always found that term humorous - it makes me feel all like a dinosaur - rawr!!) I don't make any bones about my beliefs. I do not seriously entertain the possibility that fairies or unicorns exist for fear of seeming dogmatic, so I come right out and say that there is no god. Based on a preponderance of the evidence, god simply does not jive with what modern science knows about the universe. Of course, you can play around with your definitions, but I find the idea of the omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, invisible controller of everything positively laughable.

I myself try to avoid religious ritual like the plague. It gives me the creeps. Of course, that's probably because I was first exposed to the Catholic Mass - it still gives me nightmares.

[northernsoul]

45. Thorough exposure to religious dogma and its adherents

n/t

[Locrian]

46. strong athiest

Grew up going to church (Catholic) - always felt "embarrassed" by religion as if it was something childish. Later came to think of it as more of a weakness / virus of the mind.

Was interested in religion from a psychology standpoint - why and what people believed, and "stories" in the manner of "tales" etc.

Parents (dad) admitted to not "believing" but still go to church for the social and "habit" of it.


Find it very difficult to listen to people profess "faith" or religion. For some reason it just creeps me out, like I'm listening to a 3 year old in a grown man/womans body (I dont mean to slander children, who for the most part are born atheists and only "turned" into believers).

[Help_I_Live_In_Idaho]

47. Ignorant Nasty Judgmental Religious People Turned me to Science

:toast: I thank them

[sakabatou]

51. Atheist

I hate the dogma of nearly every religion that I really know about and or practiced.

[3isamagicnumber]

52. Raised Catholic... now atheist

Serious doubts began at the beginning of my high school life. I read Camus's "The Stranger" around my sophomore year, it had a big impact (can't BELIEVE Bush read that - in fact I don't believe it). By my junior year, when confirmation was scheduled, I informed everyone how I felt. It was liberating, I would imagine in not too different a way from a gay person coming out. A sense of "I know I may catch hell, but this is who I am"

I now look on all religion with mostly disdain, because it is an archaic system of control based on fairy tales, and have a hard time accepting it as the status-quo any longer. The vilification of atheists helps make me more militant, as well.

[HamdenRice]

53. Divinity School made me an atheist

I was raised a Baptist -- but not the conservative southern kind, the African American Church of Martin Luther King.

When I was in graduate school, I toyed with the idea of studying religion seriously, and took courses in religion and divinity school.

The university departments were very progressive and historicist, and it became clear to me that most of my "religious traditions" had no basis in the actual historical experience of message of Jesus. Because I knew that most religious leaders had had good educations in divinity school and religion, I thought that the system was quite hypocritical -- as though they taught "the people" one thing and kept "the truth" for themselves.

Most important, it became clear to me that Jesus probably was not making any claims of divinity for himself, but claims to be a populist leader -- that is, the "kingdom of God" could be better interpreted as "the righteous kingdom," or the "kingdom of God's people," than what we think of as "heaven." Therefore, the central theological point of Christianity -- the crucifixion and resurrection -- were misinterpretations.

But I still have great respect for the progressive Christian tradition -- from liberation theology, to the Catholic Worker, to Bishop Tutu's Anglican Church of South Africa.

I find that many atheists, especially on this board are far, far more doctrinaire, rigid, intolerant, and hateful than the religious people I have known in my life and I probably have much more in common, in terms of values, with the tradition of progressive Christianity than with fundamentalist atheism.

[Evoman]

56. Damn...and you were doing so well.

:rofl:

Aw well...what can you do. A man wants a flame war, a man gets one I guess.

[HamdenRice]

58. It seems to me that all you are saying is ...

that certain sociological observations are too distasteful for you to contemplate even if they happen to be true.

I find that a strange position to take.

[varkam]

59. If you were merely offering sociological observations...

then it seems to me that you could do it in a way that would not be taken as offensive or inflammatory.

[HamdenRice]

60. Maybe you could point out what is offensive in my post

After describing my journey to atheism, I wrote:

"I find that many atheists, especially on this board are far, far more doctrinaire, rigid, intolerant, and hateful than the religious people I have known in my life and I probably have much more in common, in terms of values, with the tradition of progressive Christianity than with fundamentalist atheism."

Frankly, because of the religious company I have kept, I've never, ever met an intolerant Christian. I know they are out there, I see them on TV, but I haven't met them personally. From my first pastor, Walter Pinns, a local civil rights leader, to my university religion teachers, Cornell West and John Boswell -- all were epitomes of tolerance, inclusion and progressivism. That's just a sociological fact of my life.

I realize that some DUers grew up in narrow minded, intolerant, Christian fundamentalist settings, but I didn't. Sorry that I don't have the "required bitterness" from experiences with religious intolerance.

On the other hand I've met many very, very intolerant atheists -- especially here -- something I'd never encountered before.

How is my personal experience inflammatory or offensive to you or anyone else? Are you saying I should lie about my experience to make certain atheists feel better about themselves and their behavior?

I believe that tolerant Christians should not just not be intolerant, but should denounce the Jerry Falwells, just as African American Muslims should denounce Farakan and righteous Jews should denounce the Kahane movement.

Similarly, righteous atheists should not just not be intolerant, but should call it out.

Sorry if you find that offensive; I find it a moral imperative.

[varkam]

61. Don't be coy (v2!)

Frankly, because of the religious company I have kept, I've never, ever met an intolerant Christian. I know they are out there, I see them on TV, but I haven't met them personally. From my first pastor, Walter Pinns, a local civil rights leader, to my university religion teachers, Cornell West and John Boswell -- all were epitomes of tolerance, inclusion and progressivism. That's just a sociological fact of my life.

There's a problem of generalization, here. I have met many intolerant Christians, even though that I understand that not all Christians are intolerant of other people. Perhaps that is just an artifact of my growing up in the south. Why, just the other day I was discussing my problems with someone to which they replied "If you open your heart to Jesus, everything will be okay" or something to that effect. Perhaps you don't see it, but that is arrogance and intolerance.

I realize that some DUers grew up in narrow minded, intolerant, Christian fundamentalist settings, but I didn't. Sorry that I don't have the "required bitterness" from experiences with religious intolerance.

You're making the assumption that is the source of such "bitterness". For my money, I am much more concerned with creeping theocracy than with childhood experiences - I'd imagine you'd find a similar opinion among the other fundamentalist atheists here.

On the other hand I've met many very, very intolerant atheists -- especially here -- something I'd never encountered before.

Except that you have not one clue how any of us behaves in our day to day lives. Calling us intolerant seems hasty, IMO. There's a big difference between voicing one's opinion on a message board (an opinion you do not have to read, BTW) and feeding Christians to lions.

How is my personal experience inflammatory or offensive to you or anyone else? Are you saying I should lie about my experience to make certain atheists feel better about themselves and their behavior?

That's a straw man. No one is saying that your personal experience is inflammatory, but they way in which you communicate it. If you fail to understand how someone would find "atheist taliban" offensive, then clearly I'm wasting my breath (or typing, as the case may be).

I believe that tolerant Christians should not just not be intolerant, but should denounce the Jerry Falwells, just as African American Muslims should denounce Farakan and righteous Jews should denounce the Kahane movement.

That's a tautology. Tolerant Christians are, by definition, tolerant. But what you are really saying is that tolerant Christians should be tolerant with respect to some brands of Christianty (I'm imagining the ones that you most agree with) but reject other brands.

Similarly, righteous atheists should not just not be intolerant, but should call it out.

What is a righteous atheist?

And, FWIW, atheists here have called out other atheists for being dicks.

[HamdenRice]

62. not being coy

1. Your main first argument seems to be that you simply don't believe I've had the experience I've had. You're entitled to your belief, but I don't live in the south, and grew up in the multicultural and multi-religious -- Baptist, Catholic, Jehovah's Witness, Jewish, Pentecostal, Lutheran, Episcopal, Presbyterian neighborhood -- neighborhoods of Queens, New York, the most diverse county in the United States, and frankly under those conditions, it was pretty preposterous to be religiously intolerant. In those days, as an African American Baptist kid, I occasionally attended an after school Hebrew school, went to German Lutheran services, attended Bar Mitzvahs and Catholic confirmations and Catholic masses, went to Jehovah's Witness services, went with my friends to Reformed and Conservative Jewish temple on Saturday and church on Sunday, and even from time to time attended the dry local Presbyterian services.

Perhaps you don't believe in the existence of a place like Queens, New York, but it does actually exist, and this is how we live.

I went on to study with Cornell West and John Boswell (who was famous as an openly gay, devout Catholic, for demonstrating the historicity of gay marriage in the medieval Catholic church, the greatest teacher I ever had, who tragically died young of AIDS), surrounded by liberal main line protestants, including the first crop of gay and lesbian theologians who wanted to go out and create LGBT congregations.

After living in many places, I've come back to diverse Queens. Since participating in this forum, I actually have been wracking my memory for an experience of personally interacting with intolerant Christians and it just hasn't happened.

Sorry you can't wrap your mind around my experience, but there it is.

2. You are right, I don't know how people behave in their personal lives. I do know how they behave here. Here in this forum, it is acceptable, even preponderant, for atheists to say that religious people are delusional, mentally ill, should be locked up for their mental illness and have their children taken away for child abuse.

Sorry, but if I compare, say, John Boswell, to what I read here, the simple fact is that my Christian mentors were more tolerant than several of the atheists who I have encountered here. That's a simple fact. The fact that I no longer believe in God simply doesn't change my evaluation of who is more tolerant -- Cornell West or DU's atheist fundamentalists. It's a no brainer.

3. You raise a tautology, but it's the tautology of democracy. Actually, the logical dilemma of democracy and free speech.

In a democracy, we citizens generally agree on the importance of free speech, for example. That means that whatever political position a person wants to advocate, he should be able to advocate.

But what happens if a movement arises whose political platform is the curtailment of free speech?

Democracies, including ours, have solved the dilemma by saying that every viewpoint is permissible in a democracy and a free speech marketplace except for a viewpoint that wants to destroy that democracy or curtail the free speech of others.

That's a fundamental of western political democratic thought.

So applying that to this forum, my view is that every religious or irreligious view point is fine with me -- except a view point that says other viewpoints are not permissible. That's why intolerance is one of the few ideologies that should not be tolerated in a tolerant democracy. (That's the dilemma of democracy that political scientists have long identified -- that to continue to exist, the one ideology that a tolerant democracy must not tolerate is intolerance.) That's because intolerant viewpoints would close off democratic debate and shut down the market place for ideas that is the very source of tolerance.

That's why even as an atheist, I find the "lock up the religious nuts" ideology to be beyond the pale of democratic discussion. Similarly, the functional equivalent of locking people up in mental institutions for their religious beliefs -- the heckler's veto of shouting them down, and shutting down discussion through heckling, insults and profanity -- should be unacceptable in a small d democratic space.

But analyzing a particular atheist's position as "fundamentalist" is not beyond the pale of democratic discussion, because it does not shut down the market place of ideas. It isn't saying that they shouldn't speak and it isn't saying they should be locked up in mental institutions. It may be disagreeable to them, but so is my preference for Barack Obama disagreeable to Hillary supporters. It is simply an analysis that others disagree with.

[varkam]

64. Do you see how you do not merely express your experiences, but do so...

in a fashion that is antagonistic?

Your main first argument seems to be that you simply don't believe I've had the experience I've had. You're entitled to your belief, but I don't live in the south, and grew up in the multicultural and multi-religious -- Baptist, Catholic, Jehovah's Witness, Jewish, Pentecostal, Lutheran, Episcopal, Presbyterian neighborhood -- neighborhoods of Queens, New York, the most diverse county in the United States, and frankly under those conditions, it was pretty preposterous to be religiously intolerant. In those days, as an African American Baptist kid, I occasionally attended an after school Hebrew school, went to German Lutheran services, attended Bar Mitzvahs and Catholic confirmations and Catholic masses, went to Jehovah's Witness services, went with my friends to Reformed and Conservative Jewish temple on Saturday and church on Sunday, and even from time to time attended the dry local Presbyterian services.

That is not my argument. I have no reason to doubt that you have had the experiences that you have had, nor have I ever even implied that I doubt them.

Perhaps you don't believe in the existence of a place like Queens, New York, but it does actually exist, and this is how we live.

What is the purpose of this other than to be antagonistic?

After living in many places, I've come back to diverse Queens. Since participating in this forum, I actually have been wracking my memory for an experience of personally interacting with intolerant Christians and it just hasn't happened.

What's your point? That Christians are, on the whole, much more tolerant than atheists? Again, there's the problem that perhaps your experiences are not generalizable to the entire population.

You are right, I don't know how people behave in their personal lives. I do know how they behave here. Here in this forum, it is acceptable, even preponderant, for atheists to say that religious people are delusional, mentally ill, should be locked up for their mental illness and have their children taken away for child abuse.

So then how can you claim to infer qualities concerning the core of the beings of posters on an anonymous message board, where such messages might be posted in jest?

But what happens if a movement arises whose political platform is the curtailment of free speech?

Oy. Most people, including this fundamentalist atheist, don't begrudge anyone their beliefs. People should be free to believe or disbelieve as they see fit, as I think that even on a loose view of fundamental human rights that is something that should be included. There is a difference, however, between respecting a person, respecting their right to believe, and respecting those beliefs in a sense that one should find them philosophically sound.

That's why even as an atheist, I find the "lock up the religious nuts" ideology to be beyond the pale of democratic discussion. Similarly, the functional equivalent of locking people up in mental institutions for their religious beliefs -- the heckler's veto of shouting them down, and shutting down discussion through heckling, insults and profanity -- should be unacceptable in a small d democratic space.

As do I, as do many other "fundamentalist atheists" here in R/T. For instance, turtlensue (presumably a fundamentalist atheist) has posted before that we should stop comparing religiosity to mental illness or something that needs to be corrected.

But analyzing a particular atheist's position as "fundamentalist" is not beyond the pale of democratic discussion, because it does not shut down the market place of ideas. It isn't saying that they shouldn't speak and it isn't saying they should be locked up in mental institutions. It may be disagreeable to them, but so is my preference for Barack Obama disagreeable to Hillary supporters. It is simply an analysis that others disagree with.

You are merely being guilty of the same sin that you are accusing the opposition of commiting - namely by engaging in ad hominem attacks in order to pre-emptively discredit any disagreement as a result of some sort of mental defect on the part of the opposition (i.e. bigotry). You may not be of the opinion that such charges shut down the market place of ideas, but I would contend that you are flat wrong. Such charges do in fact curtail the free exchange of ideas, espescially if people become cowed by such acrimonious attacks (as has happened with numerous other debates, such as Israel / Palestinian policy).

And, to be very clear with you, I do not have any reason to doubt that you have had the experiences that you have had - I only think that you could benefit from opening your mind a little to the possibility that different people have had very different experiences from you and that their experiences are no less valuable than your own simply by the virtue of them being different.

But, for the fun of it, would you be able to rattle off some times when your rights have been infringed upon by this atheist taliban off of DU? Have you ever been the victim of physical violence? Have you ever had your vehicle vandalized by the atheist taliban? Have you ever been fired from a job by this atheist taliban? I can guarantee you that this atheist and others that I know personally have, but not by the atheist taliban.

As, you know, it seems to me that us atheists aren't doing a lot of that stuff other than posting snarky messages on the internet (which, BTW, you are not forced to read and accept).

[cosmik debris]

72. I'm buying futures in the straw market.

His consumption of straw for his straw men is likely to cause a world wide shortage and I can corner the market.

Recreating the arguments of others in an absurd fashion seems to be his current favorite fallacy.

But for my benefit, I expect he will soon return to his 4 step program.

It's all he really has.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

66. I remember John Boswell

I never took classes from him, but I attended a lecture he gave sometime in the 1970s. Fantastic speaker and lecturer. I was very sad to learn that he'd died of AIDS. :-(

[frebrd]

54. Like everyone else, I was born an Atheist.

Unlike most people, I never took seriously my family's attempt to indoctrinate me.They were Christian Scientists (didn't believe in doctors; thought illnes was an illusion). Not only didn't I believe any of it, I didn't even think I was actually supposed to beieve it (nor did I think they actually believed such garbage). I just assumed they were teaching me what was socially correct to profess to believe in their circle. I didn't think anyone actually believed in religion. I was about thirty before I realized that some people do. It scared the hell out of me. It still does.

In my early teens I refused to go to sunday school any more. I was given the choice of going to sunday school or church or staying home and having bread and milk for Sunday dinner. To this day I rather like bread and milk. I guess I associate it with freedom.

I got out of there when I was sixteen.

I'm an absolute Atheist. I never dsscuss religion wth anyone except other Atheists. Why would I?

[MindPilot]

55. Grew up in a Southern Baptist / Anglican home

Went to Catholic school. I gave up god about the same time I figured out there was no Santa Claus. One of the defining moments was when I was about 9; in the basement of the Rosedale Baptist Church in Covington KY, I discovered the Blood of Christ was nothing more than Hi-C grape juice, his body broken bits of Ritz crackers.

Forty-odd years later I'm what I guess would fit the definition of a "strong atheist". I find the whole concept of faith in some unseen, omnipotent, omniscient being who subjects all the world to his mysterious "will" just a bit silly.

[Feron]

57. My novel LOL

I suppose I'm a weak atheist because I would believe if there were irrefutable evidence. However I'm fairly certain that there is no supernatural deity. 'Big Foot' has more evidence in support of its existence than a deity.

My parents are theists and were both baptized Christians, but fell away from organized religion. So my brother and I were raised without religion but with a belief in a supreme deity.

When I was in high school, I went on a spiritual quest. I couldn't tell you why I started it, it just happened. Perhaps it's because I love mythologies and spiritual things. Anyway, in that time I became a Christian and went to Bible studies with my friends. I had doubts ,but I either suppressed them or rationalized them away.

Then in college my Christianity continued and I chose and became a Catholic. I was a cafeteria Catholic however. The idea of confession was stupid and I never felt guilty for some of the college debauchery that I participated in. But I honestly didn't feel I was doing anything wrong and gave my all to be a good Catholic otherwise. It sounds a bit hypocritical and odd, but I was honestly trying in my own way.

More importantly, as the years progressed, I couldn't ignore the emptiness of Christianity and the doubts when faith was used to insufficiently answer questions. Then there were the faith healers, questions about other religions and salvation, old gods/mythologies and the pin pricks of doubt became a flood. And I really wanted to have faith and loved attending mass, but it's like falling out of love with someone. Once you fall out of love, you can never go back.

So I decided to look into other religions. I tried Paganism for a short while ,but I didn't get anything out of that either. After that frustrating attempt, I read about deism and felt that being a deist made the most sense.

I also started really questioning my beliefs. Deep down I had always known that religion wasn't right, but I either felt guilty questioning it or just didn't want to think about it. But now accepting things on 'faith' or stagnating in fear was no longer acceptable.

Atheism was more of an 'a-ha' moment more than anything else. Even though I called myself a deist, I readily admitted that belief was irrational. For some reason I never thought of atheism until one day I was looking at the moon with my mom. No disrespect to my mom, but she was talking about how beautiful the moon God made was and I just suddenly thought "there is no god".

I didn't feel guilty or sad, but for the first time everything made sense. And now for the first time I am truly free. It's amazing how much religion binds a person even when you do believe in an impersonal God. I am also angry that society massively gaslighted and mindfucked me with religion.

I haven't been tricked by an evil deity, I'm not a fool for being a nonbeliever, I don't worship myself, and I don't fear an imaginary punishment. Comfortable cliches all to ward off uncomfortable and critical questioning of religion.

Oddly enough I love some religious songs, still have my Catholic statues up, and love mass. I just don't believe in any of it.

I don't have problems discussing religion with my family, but it can be harder with my devout Catholic friend. He's a great guy, but it's difficult when someone stays the same and you change.

[cynatnite]

63. I was raised hardcore Southern Baptist...

Began having doubts during my adolescence. Never liked the hypocrisy. I went back and forth between believing and not believing for a long time. Doubts always hung with me. What pushed me towards it more than anything was my years working in the medical field.

Watching people die over and over had a profound impact. When we die...that's it. Nothing else. There is nothing spiritual about death. Dead is dead and there is no god.

[crim son]

65. I had an active mind as a young person.

Raised a Catholic, I saw flaws in the theology. I began to explore other churches, Christian and nonChristian. I read history, of the Church and of human beings, and I saw the incredible inconsistencies in the way mankind describes God and life as it actually exists. Such tortured attempts to explain suffering, such anger when belief is challenged, and then there is the belittlement of the non-believers... there has never been an explanation of God that has convinced me that it is anything than wishful thinking. Life is hard and scary. There are mysteries, supernatural experiences perhaps, or maybe not. But none of it points to the existence of a God. I read somewhere recently how "only the amputee is denied the miracle" and I think this is a great, logical observation. Unless of course we believe what is written in the Bible.

There are so many reasons not to believe while there is really only one argument for belief: fear. There are no atheists in foxholes? Exactly.

[chknltl]

67. A reply from a spiritualists perspective

First off I was asked by a fellow DUer who posts in this forum to check into a few of the topics here. Normally I would not be posting in this forum for two reasons, one, I feel it would be disrespectful on my part because I am not a religious person and secondly, I feel I have little to offer this forum. I do have a lot to say sometimes...this is one of those times.

Let me begin by defining what I am calling spiritualism: Believing that we each have souls and those souls are on a learning journey reincarnating hundreds or even thousands of times until the lessons are fully learned. After that journey, which takes however many lives it takes to learn these lessons, those souls reintegrate with other souls forming a larger sentient entity. That entity sets off on it's own learning journey, part of which is the passing along of aid or knowledge to those still reincarnating here on earth. This process goes on throughout the universe on countless worlds and with all sentient life. On our planet we have two en-souled beings, cetaceans and humans.

That is where my base is, I'll add for reference that much of what I have learned comes through personal experience and an even larger part comes from one of those recombined entities, which calls itself: Michael. I'll further add that I am fully aware of how nuts this sounds to most who read these words...I am not at all embarrassed by this. It is impossible for me to deny my personal experiences, experiences which confirm to me that I am on the correct track with this and yes it is for most, in a realm best left to writers of Fantasy or Science Fiction. For me and others like me this is very real!

So let's tackle your questions.

How did you come to be an atheist: Hmmm.... hadn't thought about it but as a child I did believe that there was a God...eventually I grew to wonder why other religions were not equally valid. What did I do to deserve to be born into a Christian population as opposed to a Muslim population? Why did being born into a Christian population set me apart from others who were born into populations of a differing religion? If I were a God, why would I allow for my peoples to be so broken into such factions? I understood early on that I was a human being not unique from other human beings because of religion. I understood that this was a uniqueness, an 'us vs them' we imposed upon ourselves, not one imposed upon us by a God or a group of Gods. It was that revelation which allowed me to tear down the barrier set up by religion, to realize that I am a part of the whole human race not unique from it or from parts of it because of a philosophy. Once I got that part it was an easy step to becoming an atheist and then to morph this into a spiritualist.

Before I respond to your next question let me anticipate the one you may ask brought about from my above response: "So doesn't that mean that we are all God's children?" Please understand that this next bit is MY viewpoint, I am NOT trying to teach, I am only offering up my perspective in order for the reader to better understand where I am coming from. So are we or are we not all God's children? Yes and no. I'll tackle 'no' first. The concept of GOD, as the all seeing father who requires this or that of us is, from my perspective, utterly back-words. The harsh truth is that we are each here to experience life. The only meaning of life is in the living of it. There is nobody up in a heaven who is going to ask you if you were an Episcopalian! Your choices are your business and there are NEVER EVER any wrong choices! So are we all God's children? What God???-certainly not any God in any of the religions that are in existence on this planet at this time! (Again, I KNOW how offensive this will be to many readers, ESPECIALLY here, I offer it up only so you can see through my eyes...my apologies to any I may have offended...if it is any easier for you, just think of me as a misled nut doomed to some hell or another!)

I stated yes and no to my above added anticipated question, I dealt with the 'no' part and I feel it best to not go into the 'yes' part in this post. If any readers are interested in this form of spiritualism I will be glad to go down that road as I see it with you but this will stray far from the OP's topic and I have strayed far enough with this anticipated question.

Am I a strong or weak atheist: Well because of things I have learned through the spirit entity Michael, I have come to better understand the reasons for the various religions, including Christianity. In a sense I am a strong atheist because I see (to a degree) those religious teachings for how they were intended, who the students were in comparison to their teachers and how those religious teachings morphed through time to become the barely recognizable teachings we call religion today. Am I behind those original teachings? Of course, (not that it matters), am I behind the modern religions which morphed out of those teachings? NO!!!! In this way I would be considered a moderate atheist of sorts....

Was I raised into a religion: No, my parents were rather uninterested in churches or preachers. Among my siblings there is one who has become quite republican and moderately Christian because of being republican...kinda twisted way to get religion imo but it is her path and I should not be so judgemental.

Do I find it difficult to discuss religion with ANYONE: No, not at all! I understand the necessity of religions as a whole...our history would have been far FAR different without them, a great many environments for learning those 'lessons' that I mentioned above, could not have occured without them. For this reason I have no difficulty accepting that we each have our roads to walk down...for some the road is a religious one, for others, religion is of little importance and for yet another group, having NO religion is of great importance. These are THEIR intended roads...how can one NOT accept that??? Acceptance is key to being able to discuss religion with anyone who sees things different than you or I.

That answers your questions as best I could, I hope it was helpful. I would like to add something for you from my spiritual learnings. The older a soul gets the more that soul causes the person to seek out the nature of itself. Religions are useful early on but eventually the soul needs more than what religions can provide. You have said that you are curious about other peoples faiths, that you have attended a variety of churches and services, this suggests to me that you have an older soul. This can be confirmed be memories which peek through from prior lives. If you have ANY access to these memories, then I would say it confirms that you do indeed possess an older soul.

Please understand that an old soul with thousands of incarnations behind it is no more or no less important,(or 'cooler'), than an infant soul inhabiting it's first incarnation! When I suggest to you that you may have an older soul, I am not paying you some compliment to hook you into my philosophy. I say this instead as an observation in the same way that I might tell you what color your hair or eyes are, the age of your soul is of equal importance in the greater scheme of things. I only bring this up because if you do have an older soul, there is a very great chance my words spark more than a curiosity in you...if so let me know and I will pass along any answers I can.
There are many spiritualists out there who are 'people of faith' as you understand that term....their spiritualism does not diminsh their faith at all!

BTW: The DU has a great many older souls, being progressive or liberal is a very typical trait for older souls. 'Live and let live' is their motto! It is not an exclusive club though, we have a few baby souls here as well I think. Many of those 'antagonistic fundamentalists' atheists have younger souls-(NOT baby souls)...they exhibit the same 'know-it-all' belligerence that an unruly teen would have...acceptance of other ways of seeing things for them is quite difficult. Like most teens they simply do not understand why the whole world doesn't see things as they do. There appears to be a plague of younger souls in this forum.

[greyl]

68. "A plague of younger souls", what a lovely way to put it. nt

[Strong Atheist]

109. "plague of younger souls" What a smug, self-righteous, arrogant load of

(nonsense is too weak a word, though it does describe this incoherent gobblety-gook well) psychobabble.

[Lost-in-FL]

69. Raised catholic, parents very active in church...

I was very active in church but as a way of having an extracurricular activity and as a mean to find friends but never paid attention to what was said. I believed cause everyone and my parents believed. I loved science in school and everything else related to science and one day it made more sense to me than religion.

I read about Darwin in school and started to have doubts but what REALLY did it for me was when I took Organic Chemistry and Genetics. All I read about science sort of made an instant connection in my head and I was afraid to call myself a non-believer. It was hard coming to terms with being an atheist and I was afraid. I suffered for a while and used the Pascal wager argument until my brain found another reason for me to call myself an atheist. Now I am godless and morally free!!! It feels great!!

[Strong Atheist]

70. "whether you consider yourself a strong or weak atheist"

Guess;-)

[beam me up scottie]

76. Dude, where the fuck have you been?

Your EAC account is in arrears and your membership is scheduled to be terminated next month.

:hug:

[Strong Atheist]

77. I'm sorry, I guess I deserve a

:spank: ing

I left, as you may have noticed over that .... mess ... back in 06'. Due to the ... mess... it wasn't fun anymore, and so I took a (rather long) break. I am now older and grumpier, and maybe wiser than I was then (who knows...), and ready to come back. I have, however, broken my stated vows back before the ... mess ... and put several people on "ignore'. I do not do half measures; they will be off that list when pigs fly (I would haves said when **** freezes over, but ... you know ...).
I see from the last several weeks of lurking that you have kept up the good fight. It also looks like you got your group privileges back? Congrats!:party:

:hug:

[beam me up scottie]

79. Many of your ignorees were probably ts'd.

The primaries and election were brutal last year.

I took several extended breaks although DU is still where I go when I can't take it anymore here in the buy-bull belt.

[Strong Atheist]

83. No, at least two of them are big-shots here.

(though not admins, of course) One is big in the lounge, and the last is, as far as I know, a non-entity like me. None of them will probably ever notice that I am ignoring them, which is ok.

Gotta go, talk to you later.

TTFN.

[frogmarch]

71. I'm a staunch atheist and

was brought up in a Christian home. My mom was a Presbyterian. My dad read my sisters and me children's bible stories every night when we were little, but he always encouraged us to question things in the stories that didn't make sense to us, so I think now that he may have been an agnostic. He died when I was 14, and I never found out what his religious beliefs were. I was a full-fledged atheist by the time I was 5 or 6. My older sister is an atheist and my younger one an agnostic.

I don't discuss religion with believers - unless they get in my face and try to "save" me. No one's tried to do that for a long time. I guess word finally got around I'm a lost cause.

[dmallind]

73. My answers

1) Weak atheist. Strong atheists are taking a higher probability bet than theists IMO, but are definitely still guessing. Note that I apply that to strong atheism as a blanket proposition. You CAN absolutely deny the possibility of a logically inconsistent idea of a god.

2) I was raised in an apatheistic/very mildly Methodist/Anglican family. Never really bought it although dabbled for a bit in early teens, but became more and more convinced the more I thought about it that it was all wishful thinking.

3) No not at all - happy to rationally discuss any faith wioth anyone pretty equally. The idea fascinates me. Certainly considered other faiths (heck Xianity too really) as ideas but never really auditioning tham as a belief - just as an outsider.

[Sandrine for you]

74. I"m from a country where religion is almost death.

And it"s really strange to see how the young people, even if they believe in the existence of something like a god, and even if mostly all our city get some "Saint name", they just don't remember anything about christianity: "who the fuck is Luc ?", "A what ?", "Is Jesus get a little cross-chain on his neck ?".

"criss de tabarnack d"osti de calisse", and they don't even know what a Tabernacle and a Calisse are.

The small amount of real religious people I have the occasion to talk with make me feel they are a little bit crazy. But I like to talk to them, it"s really fun to argue with them. But for what my mother tell me about christianity, and for what I see about the religion in USA, I really don't want any comeback of the religion in my country.

So I was raised in a cultural catholic family, my father introduce me to the greek mythology at the age of 5. To the old testament at 6, and to the new at 7. I love the greek and the old, but not the new one.

I"m now something like a weak atheist, more like a pantheist.

[PassingFair]

75. Are you from France?

[Sandrine for you]

78. lol!! Quebec-City.

[Strong Atheist]

102. Welcome to DU!

:toast:

[Sandrine for you]

104. Thanks !

:beer: :toast:

[Silent3]

80. I don't believe in life after death for people...

...but I might have to reconsider the idea where long-dead threads are concerned. :)

[beam me up scottie]

81. Well you're obviously wrong and it's your own fault.

You were late and just missed the resurrection of Strong Atheist.

I think you just didn't WANT to see it.

[Silent3]

84. Strong Atheist never was dead.

He was just pining for the fjords.

[beam me up scottie]

97. Well there goes that lucrative book deal...

Damn you atheists and your stinkin logic!

[Deep13]

82. okay

"I'd be curious to know how you came to be an atheist,..."
The more I learned, the more I realized how implausible the existence of god is. Ultimately, it was The God Delusion that that made real realize that apart from there being no evidence in support of a god, the objective facts actually preclude it. If god does not do the kind of things gods do--create the world, answer prayers etc., then he is not a god. Natural selection can only work (and still be the way we know it is) if there is no outside direction. What is god's function if evolution is caused by environmental conditions selecting for random changes? I realized that there is a fundamental dishonesty to looking for an excuse to continue to believe in the face of contradictory evidence. Besides, a god capable of making a universe and doing those god things is even more difficult to explain than the universe. It is not an answer but only compounds the problem.

Having discovered that god was created in the imaginations of humans, every other question became moot.

"...and whether you consider yourself a strong or weak atheist."
I'm convinced that god is impossible.

"Were you raised in some religion,"
Short answer: yes. There was a tension between being an Episcopalian like my father used to be and a nut-case Catholic like my step-father and mother were at the time. My mother was into astrology and other crack pot ideas. Step monster was also in the A.A. religion (and, therefore, was not being treated for his personality disorder.) My father at that time was an atheist.

"and eventually decide that you didn't believe it?"
Yes, I had an education. Doubt about the Bible--mostly because of the creation story and its barbarity--and the cynical worldliness of the history of the churches knocked a lot of luster from the faith. Eventually, I understood religion to be completely fabricated for the purpose of controlling people.

"If so, how long did that journey take?"
Much, much too long. Had I not been pre-programmed to think I was a sinner and that my doubts were evil, it would have gone quicker and I would have been saved from a lot of misery. I really think religious indoctrination is cruel to children.

"Were you simply raised without any religion?" no

"Do you find it more difficult to discuss religion with people who still practice the religion in which you were raised? For instance, if you were raised Christian, do you have more difficulty discussing religion with a Christian than you do with a Buddhist?"
It's all difficult because people assume I have some duty to shut up about my doubts and to respect their irrational, impossible and frankly childish ideas.

"Did you make the switch directly to atheism, or did you segue through some other faith?"
Once I realized my largely liberal religion was bullshit, I figured the others had to be too.

[Taverner]

85. Raised in a Dutch Reformed Church home

Although mom was a lapsed Catholic - we attended Methodist Church and sent me away to a Fundie School. Oh might I add my brother is a Baptist minister.

Although I had enough anger at Religion at the time to make me walk away, it wasn't until I studied the evidence that I truly walked away.

I have come to realize that I should judge the person, not the group - I have met Christians who I would risk life for, and I've met Atheists who I would rather never see again.

But - since I walked away, I don't fear death, am happier and finally feel free.

[dcsmart]

86. Atheism is not logical

as an agnostic, i have to say i have always thought atheism to violate logical reasoning. to say there is no god is a very difficult statement to make. i am sure people are thinking of a certain type of god, but to say no god exists seems to say that all dogs have four legs....which we know is not case. so, since i can say that i do not think there is sufficient evidence to prove the existence of a god, i cannot not say there is no god....

[Taverner]

87. You misunderstand Atheism

Atheism still states "I am convinced there is no god" rather than "absolutely"

In fact, a major force in Atheist Philosophy is to veer away from absolutes.

[dcsmart]

89. then why not say agnostic

[Taverner]

90. Agnostic is "I don't know"

I do know - I'm convinced there is no god

But like any scientific mind, never rule out other possibilities.

[dcsmart]

92. Ok, welll,

if you do know and are convinced, by what.

i asked someone else the same question:
did you read Athony flew's book, "There is a God". if so, what did you think

[cosmik debris]

94. Theism = belief in god

A-theism = without belief in god

Don't try to read more into it than there is.

[cosmik debris]

88. Atheist withhold belief until the evidence is presented and tested

It would be illogical to reach a conclusion before the evidence is presented and tested.

Not all atheists say there is no go. Atheism is lack of belief in god. That is all it is.

[dcsmart]

91. question

have you read Anthony Flew's book, There is a God. if you did what did you think? i am sure it was discussed on this site, but i never read anything about it.Flew was the leading atheist philosopher for a long time

[cosmik debris]

93. Why would I want to read that?

Does it present evidence that can be tested?

And there is no philosophy of atheism.

[Silent3]

95. I haven't read the book...

...but I do recall something reading about Flew himself, and how he was (is?) having some odd mental problems where basically anyone could convince Flew of almost anything. Give him an hour or two alone in conversation with an atheist, and he'd emerge from the conversation a dedicated atheist, ready to argue for that viewpoint. Having done that, give him a bit of time with a Scientologist, and Flew would soon be eager for his own E-meter. (I'm paraphrasing what I remember, and Scientology wasn't specifically mentioned.)

Flew had been an atheist for a long time (we know how some theists love to trumpet the existence of anyone who vocally disbelieves in God who later "comes into the light"), but I've got the impression that Flew has somehow lost the ability to hold onto much in the way of firm convictions, atheistic or theistic, and is easily swayed by wanting to be agreeable with whoever he's with at any given time. I'd be very skeptical that his writings are worth much of an investment in the time it would take to read them.

[charlie]

98. He didn't write the book

He apparently doesn't even know much of what's in it.

In “There Is a God,” Flew quotes extensively from a conversation he had with Leftow, a professor at Oxford. So I asked Flew, “Do you know Brian Leftow?”

“No,” he said. “I don’t think I do.”

“Do you know the work of the philosopher John Leslie?” Leslie is discussed extensively in the book.

Flew paused, seeming unsure. “I think he’s quite good.” But he said he did not remember the specifics of Leslie’s work.

“Have you ever run across the philosopher Paul Davies?” In his book, Flew calls Paul Davies “arguably the most influential contemporary expositor of modern science.”

“I’m afraid this is a spectacle of my not remembering!”

He said this with a laugh. When we began the interview, he warned me, with merry self-deprecation, that he suffers from “nominal aphasia,” or the inability to reproduce names. But he forgot more than names. He didn’t remember talking with Paul Kurtz about his introduction to “God and Philosophy” just two years ago. There were words in his book, like “abiogenesis,” that now he could not define. When I asked about Gary Habermas, who told me that he and Flew had been friends for 22 years and exchanged “dozens” of letters, Flew said, “He and I met at a debate, I think.” I pointed out to him that in his earlier philosophical work he argued that the mere concept of God was incoherent, so if he was now a theist, he must reject huge chunks of his old philosophy. “Yes, maybe there’s a major inconsistency there,” he said, seeming grateful for my insight. And he seemed generally uninterested in the content of his book — he spent far more time talking about the dangers of unchecked Muslim immigration and his embrace of the anti-E.U. United Kingdom Independence Party.

As he himself conceded, he had not written his book.

“This is really Roy’s doing,” he said, before I had even figured out a polite way to ask. “He showed it to me, and I said O.K. I’m too old for this kind of work!”

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/04/magazine/04Flew-t.html?_r=1&pagewanted=print

[dcsmart]

99. That's amazing

obviously, i never knew that. thank you for the info. i still liked the book. i have read flew's work before and was surprised at his conclusion in the book "with his name on it" lol. well, there you have it. the truth will set you free. the empirical truth wins out. but, maybe he did write it, but forgot he wrote because between the time he wrote it and the interview he had some brain trauma that made him forget he wrote it....lol...
thanks for the article and your responses.....:yourock:

[charlie]

100. Flew's situation reminds me of

Mike Deaver once talking about how access to Reagan was zealously guarded, because he could be convinced of a side of an argument by the last guy he talked to. He and another handler (Schultz, I think it was) had an OMG moment when they both realized Edward Teller was alone with the president, and ran to the Oval Office to get him out of there. For all we know, Reagan's SDI obsession may have been planted that moment.

It seems clear Flew is being taken advantage of, though we'll probably never know if Flew arrived at his conversion with full possession of his faculties, or was cynically manipulated.

[beam me up scottie]

96. I'm an atheist and I don't make that claim.

Someone seems to have trouble with logic but it's not me.

[Deep13]

105. That's a factual disagreement, not a logical one.

First of all, "god" has a specific meaning. We are not talking about some vague, do-nothing being. We are talking about a being that exists apart from the natural universe, who created it and who intervenes in it including in response to prayer. Nothing that fits that description exists. That is a scientific matter and I am either right about that or wrong. Belief and perspective have no bearing on the answer.

[laconicsax]

101. Some answers.

I'd be curious to know how you came to be an atheist, and whether you consider yourself a strong or weak atheist. Were you raised in some religion, and eventually decide that you didn't believe it? If so, how long did that journey take? Were you simply raised without any religion?

I'm a strong atheist. I freely admit that it is impossible to know for certain, but it is intellectually lazy to leave it at 'I don't know,' unreasonable to conclude that any gods exist and illogical to conclude that most gods do not exist but some do. It is most likely the case that no gods exist.

I was raised in a very secular Jewish family, attended a very secular synagogue, and my conception of God was between theism and deism. My rabbi convinced me to become an atheist in his 2004 Yom Kippur sermon where he gave a long historical perspective on what it means to be Jewish. His main point was that to be Jewish means to question authority and examine your faith through study of the Torah to determine what it means for you. I determined pretty quickly through my study of the Torah that since most of the text is garbage that has no use in my life, none of it should be taken seriously. (I was half-way there when I was 13--my bar mitzvah speech was on inconsistencies in the Bible.) If God's holy book can be disregarded, then God can be disregarded. I became Jewish by determining that for me, the Torah means that God does not exist.

Do you find it more difficult to discuss religion with people who still practice the religion in which you were raised? For instance, if you were raised Christian, do you have more difficulty discussing religion with a Christian than you do with a Buddhist? Did you make the switch directly to atheism, or did you segue through some other faith?

I've always found it tedious to discuss religion with other Jews--when you get into reform Judaism, it's too much of a vague religious philosophy centered on abstract, gut-based, faith lacking any serious doctrine. Discussing differing philosophies is a different matter entirely.
I find it less difficult to discuss religion with Evangelicals because they're so willing to discuss their Bible. By indicating my willingness to engage them on that subject, they get less confrontational and are willing to listen to criticism in the form of objective questions before reverting to stark raving lunatics. I have a vivid memory of a colleague's slack-jawed gape when I asked about the direct contradictions between Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 followed by, "I've never noticed that before! I don't know what to say."

That was priceless.

[cynatnite]

106. I was raised southern baptist...

I always had some form of doubt and at times I went along just in case my suspicions were wrong. I was looking for proof.

As a child, it was all pretty scary, too. I was scared I'd go to hell if I questioned. The fire and brimstone preaching laid it all out pretty clearly. I remember hearing a preacher describe the last plague of Egypt where the first born was all killed by god. I thought if I was there god would kill me because I was the oldest child. One time my mother said that if someone put a gun to my head and told her to reject god...she wouldn't do it. She'd let me get killed rather than do that. I guess it was the fear-mongering that probably put me on the road to atheism.

When I got older I went into the medical field. Spent most of that time working in the ER and plenty of other occasions in the back of ambulances. I saw a lot of horrible things and more death than I care to recall. That was the final nail in the coffin...parden the pun.

There was nothing. People die and that's it. I saw nothing to indicate to me that there is some sort of life after death. It's a scary thing to see, but over time I've come to accept it and understand it...at least a little.

I rarely spoke of this to anyone in my family. They are hardcore christians and believe the bible to be a literal book. A few know and as long as they don't attempt to convert me or any of that jazz, then everything's fine.

I don't believe in god and I know I never will.

[iris27]

108. A strong faith eventually led to a strong rejection, for me.

(Sorry this is so long - that tends to happen whenever people give me the chance to talk about myself, ha ha!)


I was raised Lutheran (LCMS), and bought it all wholeheartedly from day one. Lutherans are a kinda nerdy denomination, always ready to turn to the text of scripture and discuss it, possibly even bringing the original Hebrew/Greek into it if it's listed in someone's Bible's footnotes. Their interpretation is always the right one, and there's an unspoken air of intellectual superiority over other denominations who "have it wrong"...i.e., "those silly Presbyterians, they think the bread/wine at communion is just a representation of Christ's body and blood..."


Basically, they are always up for debate, and believe anyone can be convinced of the right point of view if you can just properly explain the Lutheran interpretation to them.


Anyway, I was 20 years old and certain that I was "called" to be a minister. I was planning to go to seminary after finishing my undergrad. It was from within this lovingly arrogant mindset that I set out to learn all I could about the arguments against God, so that I could refute them properly and become a great witness to atheists. The atheist part was mostly inspired by my awesome roommate/best friend, who was an atheist, though I wasn't obnoxious enough to tell her my plans. I wanted to wait until I "knew my stuff" a little better before bringing up religion with her.


I started devouring Christian apologetic works and atheist writings alike, and quickly ran into problems. I could easily spot the flaws in the Christian arguments (like C.S. Lewis' Lord/Liar/Lunatic argument won't convince anyone who doesn't already believe that the Bible is true). And the atheists' arguments were actually sound...the only way out of the classic Problem of Evil is to be emotionally comfortable with a God who doesn't care about human suffering enough to change it.


Anyway...I kept researching, and started digging into questions of hell, free will, and original sin. I ended up realizing that if you looked at Christianity from "outside the box" - that is, not already assuming that it's true - it was entirely indefensible. I actually admitted out loud, to myself and to my fiance, that I was starting to think there was no God.


Then my brain decided to run away from the question entirely for about six months...cognitive dissonance is a frightening thing, especially to someone whose future career plans hang in the balance. It was also the mental freak-out of someone whose entire world had rested on the idea of Christianity being true. I had to stop and think, "Wait a minute, how does the world WORK, exactly, if God isn't real?" Ultimately I decided it was better to keep reading and draw whatever conclusions I would, rather than risk de-converting in seminary school (or after ordination!) when I would be that much more committed to a career based on Christianity.


I revisited the hell/free will/original sin trifecta, and pretty quickly realized that I was now clearly outside mainstream Christianity, because I couldn't reconcile "God is Love" (1 John 4: 7-8) with the idea of Hell. I just could not worship a God who would allow anyone to undergo infinite punishment for finite sins. This led to a quick "But what about Jesus?" moment, and I realized that no hell meant that there was no point to Jesus' sacrifice. And...that was the end of my Christianity.


From there I pretty much went straight into agnostic atheism, with just a brief stop in Deism Land. I had trouble accepting the idea that no benevolent supernatural force was responsible for bringing me and my fiance (now-husband) together. Because we did meet in pretty "one-shot-in-a-lifetime" circumstances and ordinarily we lived far apart, and we are such a great match. But I realized that any personally-involved deity would run into the classic "problem of evil", just maybe without hell involved, and eventually I was OK with the idea that I just got really, really lucky to be in the right place at the right time when DH and I first met.


From first setting out on my "convert atheist roommate" quest until my total de-conversion took about 18 months-2 years.


Today, I am a strong atheist with respect to the Christian God, as I believe that the Bible describes him as internally contradictory. I assert that he does not exist in the same manner as square circles don't exist. Same goes for gods like Zeus and Pele who were once used to describe natural phenomena that we now understand


I am a weak atheist (Tooth Fairy atheist as someone said above) in regard to most other deities that I haven't studied closely, and in regard to most hypothetical deities as well. I think weak atheism is a more logically defensible position than agnosticism most of the time. Agnosticism asserts that we cannot know. I take the position of, "You're right, we don't know absolutely, for anyone/everyone's definition of a god, that none of these exist. But does it really matter?" I also think it's disingenuous for me to ID as agnostic when, with respect to the deity of choice for 95% of the people I end up discussing religion with, I am a strong/explicit atheist.


Speaking of discussion...I actually find it easier to discuss religion with practicing Christians than those of other beliefs, simply because I am intimately familiar with what their beliefs ARE, and we don't have to start off with 20 minutes of "Please define your god for me". Of course, this assumes that they are open to discussion and not simply trying to beat me over the head with scripture verses like "the fool says in his heart, 'There is no God.'" That's usually my family's tactic. That, or reading aloud jokes like "The Atheist & the Bear" at family gatherings. Oi.

[Bragi]

110. Raised catholic, altheism came naturally

After being raised as a Catholic, it was just natural to become anti-Catholic, which easily lead to atheism and/or agnosticism.

I've never decided fully which of the two I am, since either non-belief non-system works for me.

- B