At the moment, 5 of the top 7 threads are not actually

[Occam Bandage]

discussions of religion, or of theology, but rather are discussions of who is preventing discussion of religion and theology.

It's fairly obvious that what is actually getting in the way of discussion is people complaining about other people getting in the way.

[TZ]

1. not people

just individuals--can't even have a rational discussion in AA either...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=263&topic_id=32828&mesg_id=32828

[ironbark]

2. Has anyone ever……

Listened to a Hymn and enjoyed it?........a Christmas Carol?........Gospel music?

Ever looked upon the Blue Mosque of Isfahan and thought- “Shit….that’s nice…I’d like one of those in the back garden”?

Has anyone ever been the recipient of aid or assistance from the Salvation Army?, Red Cross?, Red Crescent ? Anglicare? Sisters of the Back Streets and Alleyways?
or perhaps even the ‘Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence’?
Has anyone ever attempted to make a comprehensive list of such agencies and picture their community/world without them?

Has anyone ever read the story of the library of Toledo?
“In 1105 the Christians captured Toledo, where the Muslims held vast libraries of Greek, Roman, and Arabic books on philosophy and mathematics. These books included the classics of Rome and Greece, lost to the west for hundreds of years. The intellectual plunder lead to scholars from all over Europe to come to Toledo. Using Jewish interpreters, the scholars translated the Arabic books, and these works left lasting jealousies on the scholars of Europe. The texts included medicine, astrology, astronomy, pharmacology, psychology, physics, physiology, zoology, biology, botany, mineralogy, optics, chemistry, mathematics, algebra, geometry, trigonometry, music, meteorology, geography, mechanics, hydrostasis, navigation, and history. These transcripts helped to light the fire of the renaissance”.

“the classics of Rome and Greece, lost to the west for hundreds of years” ….our Western heritage, spark of the renaissance, preserved by the Moors for generations.
Anybody ever send them a ‘Thank You’ card?

Has anyone ever stood in front of a class of Secondary/Tertiary students and basked in their common knowledge when you ask them to- “Identify three great Architects, Artists, Philosophers, Scientists”?......Dam quick and well informed aint they!
Ever asked them to identify three Eastern Philosophers or Muslim Architects?

Ever thought back to that Klatchnian bloke Al and wished him well and gave thanks for his ‘Algebra’?

Has anyone ever worked, trained or been educated in the Welfare Sector and been engaged in the deep and protracted discussion of the necessity for- “Unconditional Non Judgemental Positive Regard”?
Ever gone out to work beside a 76 year old Nun who exhausts you with the ‘love’ she never even speaks of?


“Oh please... It does not take a lot of words to show that religion is "superstition, ignorance, dementia, irrationality, and so on." To argue more interesting points you first have to make religion interesting, instead of the dark age nonsense that it is.”


Anyone ever >not< believed in a religion and still believed they are the recipient of a vast cultural, intellectual and spiritual treasure house of religious artefacts, ideas, melodies and fruits?

Ever celebrated them?


.

[TZ]

3. I like christmas carols

And I was *raised* Jewish and enjoy the ritual/cultural heritage, can still recite some Hebrew prayers. Thats why anyone who claims I SCORN religion as a "fundamentalist atheist" is sadly mistaken.

[ironbark]

4. Hey turtlensue

I'm glad that out of the list you got "christmas carols" !....Good for you! ;-)

Whispers-(Personaly I wouldn't admit susch a thing even if it was true...Gospel can be 'cool'...but
"christmas carols" !!!???........Sheeesh, brave call ;-)

The 'Smart Money' was on 'Toledo' and the intellectual credability therein ;-)

"anyone who claims I SCORN religion as a "fundamentalist atheist"

turtlensue...I don't know how or why "SCORN religion as a "fundamentalist atheist" comes in here.
I've never directed such terms at you and I'll keep an eye out for any that do.

I do however appreciate the fact that after months of posting and dozens of posts seeking to elicit some small concession to the posibility that religion may have made some contribution to civilization
other than darkness and evil...I've now got "christmas carols". ;-)

I think that's realy cute'n'funny and I thank you for it.

[muriel_volestrangler]

5. You seem to be attributing the achievements of Arabic civilization to Islam

which is rather like attributing the seed drill, the steam engine and germ theory to Christianity.

[ironbark]

6. Yup

Me and thousands upon thousands of historians, schollars and writers in Universies, books and journals, online and off, secular and non daring to call Islamic civilization- Islamic civilization….some even daring ‘Golden Age of Islamic civilization’ and some going for ‘Muslim contribution to civilization’.
Google a couple and see what pops up.
And in all these histories and all these tomes and all these academic discourses I don’t see >anybody< bothering to play- It was just the Arabs or 'Arabic civilization' because....it wasn't.

And it upsets the Turks and the Moors. ;-)

So yea....the achievements of Islamic civilization are just that...the achievements of Islamic civilization.

If you wish it to be otherwise or seen as otherwise I recomend you take it up with the historians.
Personaly I hold it to be a 'non stater'.

[muriel_volestrangler]

7. And yet the things you're listing seem to mainly come under Arabic rule

such as the Umayyads and Abbasids. The main point, which you seem to have missed, is that you're attributing the achievements of people in an empire to the main religion in it. Algebra wasn't a result of Islam (nor of Terry Pratchett, for that matter, which I presume was what you were trying to refer to). Just as germ theory wasn't the result of Christianity.

[ironbark]

9. "The ink of the scholar

is more holy than the blood of martyrs"


“you're attributing the achievements of people in an empire to the main religion in it”

Beyond that I’m attributing the very empire to Islam (most historians do)
Islam was not “the main religion in ”the empire…the empire was in Islam.


Muriel…..I wasn’t there and I think it’s safe to assume you weren’t either…that leaves us (and the world) reliant on historians and scholars. As already pointed out the overwhelming majority of historians and scholars seem quite content to attribute that flowering civilisation to Islam. Some will be believers who hold God to be involved in the process and some content that such speculation is beyond knowing but still prepared to recognise the remarkable transforming effect, power and influence of the ‘religion’- Islam.

“During this period the Muslim world became the unrivalled intellectual centre for science, philosophy, medicine and education as the Abbasids championed the cause of knowledge and established a "House of Wisdom" in Baghdad; where both Muslim and non-Muslim scholars sought to translate and gather all the world's knowledge into Arabic”

That’s a pretty standard historical description of what it was- “the Muslim world” and the “Abbasids championed the cause of knowledge” >in< and >through< the impetus and inspiration of the religion- Islam
It was the empire/admin in the context of and propelled by the religion. Not the other way round

You are not so content and wish to attribute this civilization to primary factors other than Islam?
Go for it Muriel. I’m listening.

[varkam]

8. Precisely.

:thumbsup:

[Evoman]

10. Yup...it sure is interesting, isn't it.