I'm a damn atheist...

[cynatnite]

and I get all sniffly and emotional when someone sings Amazing Grace really pretty. I like 'Ben Hur', 'King of Kings', 'The Bible', 'The Robe' and other old religious type movies that show Jesus as a blue-eyed guy.

Hell, I still like some of the old type religious songs I grew up on like 'when the role is called up yonder' and all that. I just like the music. MercyMe does some nice music...religious, yes, but it's very nice to listen to.

Doesn't give me the urge to convert back to Christianity or anything like that...I just like what I like.

[varkam]

1. One of my all time favorite pieces of music...

as Ave Maria. Go figure.

[cynatnite]

2. Mine, too. I love that piece n/t

[Hissyspit]

4. Gounod's

The Well-Tempered Clavier.

[Dorian Gray]

28. Hey...

and I love Imagine by John Lennon. Doesn't make me a Godless Heathen! :evilgrin:

[elocs]

3. Good for you! Just remember that Jesus was a real Liberal, in that time or now. n/t

[Beregond2]

5. And I'm not an atheist, and I loathe all that stuff;

so there ya go; lol!

[liberalmuse]

6. As a godless atheist myself, I have to agree...

"Amazing Grace" is quite a good song, especially if you're toasted and want to sing like a drunken fool. I love Jesus. He may be fictional, but I think my version of him (in my head) is pretty cool. He was the ultimate liberal. I like seeing Charlton Heston in a loin cloth. I also think guys who look like Jesus are hot (Jeffery Hunter, John Derek, Serj Tankian and Brad Pitt, if you are into the Aryian Jesus). My favorite song is "Ave Maria" in any version, really. I have at least six versions of this song on iTunes. So there you have it. The true confessions of an atheist.

[cynatnite]

8. The best Jesus was Jeffrey Hunter...

The weirdest one however was Willem Dafoe.

[More Than A Feeling]

7. Just try listening to "Orphan Girl" by Gillian Welch

without being moved. Christian lyrics and all.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=TCWWBpoXZSU

[cynatnite]

9. That is absolutely beautiful!

Thanks :)

[BlueJazz]

10. Never Liked 99 percent of Church hymms but that doesn't mean...

I don't like people that do.

This Atheist does like "I'll rise again" by Dallas Holmes

[classof56]

14. That's one that never fails to give me goose bumps.

I'm on the verge of becoming an agnostic after reading Bart Ehrman's book "God's Problem." But the fundie RW Baptist stuff is so ingrained in me it's hard to totally let go of it. The hymn "It is Well with my Soul" has been sung at our family's funerals since I can remember. Always makes me cry. Wish there was a heavenly place where we could all gather and sing and praise the Lord and share for eternity. I now realize that doesn't make much sense, but at least I'm no longer racked with guilt about every thing I do or don't do and live in fear of God's wrath. Took me 70 years to get here. Still not sure I'm totally on board with the no-God business, but if the Baptists are right, I'm covered, I guess.

Gotta go check to see if Rise Again is on YouTube. Could use a few goose bumps!

Tired Old Cynic

[Zebedeo]

46. It is well with my soul

Do you know the story behind the composition of that hymn? It makes the hymn even more beautiful and compelling.

[HeresyLives]

11. Richard Dawkins loves

Xmas carols. He calls it 'cultural christianity'. It's part of our culture. We were raised with it.

Enjoy the music, and think what you like intellectually.

[Warpy]

12. When I worked the night shift

I always turned to a foot-stompin gospel program on Sunday morning to keep me awake on the drive home. I love bluegrass spirituals, they're fun to bellow along with in the car. I love classical masses, the Faure Requiem being a favorite.

That doesn't mean I buy a word of it, either.

[uppityperson]

13. Me too

[ironbark]

15. It’s the end of the world as we know it!

After months of trying to elicit >any< scant recognition that religion might have made some positive contribution to culture/civilization (to no avail whatsoever) I put up ‘Has anyone ever……’ http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=214x172889#172902

And I gained the glorious concession that turtlensue likes Christmas Carols!


That was at precisely-08:52 PM, Thu May-29-08

In the blink of an eye look what’s happening!

By 11:40 PM, Thu May-29-08 the floodgates are open and the atheist hoard is pouring out its confessions and concessions to high religious culture, art and music!

“'Ben Hur', 'King of Kings', 'The Bible', 'The Robe'” from cynatnite

Varkam is up for “Ave Maria”

Liberalmuse - "Amazing Grace"


WHAT’S NEXT!??

Confessions that someone once gave to the Salvation Army!?

[More Than A Feeling]

16. *shrug* Amazing what you can get people to tell you

when you stop trying to triangulate against them, isn't it? You should let your buddy know that. Maybe he'll listen, if it comes from you.

[ironbark]

18. "triangulate against them" ?

I am fascinated.

Will we see any examples of this heinous “triangulation”?

Or will it remain as with all prior…a vague and unsubstantiated assertion?




I didn’t employ a protractor did I ?

[More Than A Feeling]

20. Certainly.

I don't know about you, but my thought is that as non-believers, we share something in common, opposite believers in the supernatural phenomena called "gods". You call yourself an agnostic, I'm a Realist...whatever. We both stick to reason and evidence in search of what is real.

When people, some in the establishment (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rj-eskow/my-new-years-eve-dream-a_b_37567.html) some not (you and your friend), casually throw around a hot button term like "atheist fundamentalist" your bound to alienate more people than just whoever you mean to apply that term to. You'll alienate all the atheists who now have to suspect that when you employ that term, you really mean them. You'll alienate the people who think of Fundamentalism as a religious force, and dislike non-religious people and things being stuffed into a religious frame. For you, imagine if agnosticism was repeatedly called a religion around you, by people you are none too sure of in the first place. I can't say for sure, but perhaps you wouldn't like that.

I've seen more than a few arrogant agnostics, people with confidence in their insistence that everyone but them is unreasonable (atheists and religious alike), but I don't use "agnostic fundamentalist", do I? No, I don't, because I don't want to alienate anyone who falsely thinks I mean them.

You might consider the same, unless you just don't give a crap, in which case, why even bother responding to me?

[ironbark]

23. OK

“… casually throw around a hot button term like "atheist fundamentalist" your bound to alienate more people than just whoever you mean to apply that term to”

First up I don’t believe I have “casually thrown” the term ‘atheist fundamentalist’.
I tried participating on the board some time back and gave up, I have watched the board in the interim, I have listened to what other participants have said (about the environment) and thought about it carefully. I have not directed the term at any individual and sought to apply the term to specific behaviours.
In short….nothing “casual” about its application at all.

Having used the term I stood prepared to explain exactly what I meant and why…providing specific examples when requested, At the risk of “alienating” atheists I’m going to suggest that the preparedness to answer pertinent questions has been one of the central issues. There is a predisposition towards making an assertion or allegation then, when queried, declining to clarify or substantiate.
In terms of “evidence in search of what is real” it has often been very thin on the ground.

“ imagine if agnosticism was repeatedly called a religion around you”

“Agnostic religion? Evangelical Agnosticism?…..Hmmm…Wouldn’t bother me. It’s not beyond conception…there are traditions within religion that incorporate doubt- ‘The Cloud of Unknowing’ and ‘The Long Dark night of the Soul’.

‘Fundamentalist Agnosticism’?....I’ll get back to you on that one (but the proposition does not offend me)

“You'll alienate all the atheists who now have to suspect that when you employ that term, you really mean them.”

I believe we are back to “reason and evidence in search of what is real”.
Atheists could only “suspect that when I employ that term, I really mean them.” >if< they have been or are engaged in the hallmark behaviours- ie virulent/bigoted/unwavering hatred of all things religious.

[varkam]

31. Hey, I'm an agnostic, too.

Go figure.

[ironbark]

35. Fundamentalist, Evangelical, Militant, Lapsed, Universalist or Californian?

?
;-)

[varkam]

42. Nah, just an agnostic atheist. eom

[uberllama42]

17. I used to give to them

And shop at their stores until I found out that they are anti-gay. As my brother put it, "Homie don't play that shit." I continue to acknowledge that by and large they do good work, but their stance on homosexuality is enough for me to boycott them.

Bach is some of the most beautiful music ever written, and his motivation was strongly religious, even fanatically so. I also love cathedral architecture and even remember a thing or two I learned about it in high school.

[ironbark]

19. I used to work for them

and also "acknowledge that by and large they do good work"

Working for The Sallies (in a Govt funded welfare agency) raises all kinds of issues about both
seperation of church and state and the funding dependent NGO cowering to Govt pressure.

In our instance it also raised the issue of proselytising any one in care. Under Australian Department of Human Services Act it is illegal to attempt to influence a clients religion or Politics.
Our boss, a Salvation Army officer commonly referred to as ‘Major Fuckup’, could not abide by this legislation/rule.
So we (workers and clients) sacked him. .-)

"their stance on homosexuality is enough for me to boycott them".

I can't argue with that.

"Bach is some of the most beautiful music ever written,"..."I also love cathedral architecture "

I'm with you on both counts......but prefer the Selimiye Mosque, built by Sinan, over any cathedral.


Can't tell you how much it means to hear just simple/basic appreciation of music and architecture inspired by religion.

Thank you.

[PDJane]

22. I admire mosques and churches and temples.......

there is a shinto shrine in Japan called Miyajima. There is a red torii in the water, and it is one of the most beautiful places on earth. The celts with their industrious pens and beautiful illumination are just wonderful. There are so many beautiful churches, and the vatican is a lovely place.

However, as much as I admire the artistic products of religion, I cannot condone the violence that is the other half of the equation.

[ironbark]

25. I did a google image search

for the Miyajima temple.

It is indeed beautiful.

I have a lifelong ambition to see the moss gardens of Kyoto.

I'm told that they have been some 700 years in the making...the monks worked on the
principle of “Everywhere is the hand of man, nowhere can it be seen”.
So it's all man made but 'super-natural'.

[varkam]

21. Pretty songs versus slaughter and suppression of science

You know, I like Ave Maria and all, but I could've traded it for avoiding the sticky Dark Ages thing.

It's not that religion has contributed nothing positive to society or culture - and I don't think that anyone serious has advanced this argument. Rather, the contention of anti-theism is that the sum total of goods that religion has contributed does not outweigh the sum total of negative consequences that religion and popular religiosity has wrought on society.

ETA And I realize that pretty songs are not the sum total of goods that religion has contributed to society.

[TechBear_Seattle]

27. "Does not outweigh the sum total of negative consequences"

Exactly. Given a choice between having both Faure's Requiem (IMO, one of the most beautiful pieces of music ever written) and the Inquisition, or neither, I would not miss the Requiem all that much.

[ironbark]

33. There’s the rub

“the contention of anti-theism is that the sum total of goods that religion has contributed does not outweigh the sum total of negative consequences that religion and popular religiosity has wrought on society” Varkam

“Exactly. Given a choice between having both Faure's Requiem (IMO, one of the most beautiful pieces of music ever written) and the Inquisition, or neither, I would not miss the Requiem all that much.” TechBear_Seattle

If the direct and explicit ‘Commandment’ of Christianity is “Thou shalt not kill”
does not the killing Inquisition become a reflection of the failure or refusal to adhere to the religion?

How is acting in a manner diametrically opposed to an instruction a reflection or result of that instruction?

(The prior stated Varkum pov is that misbehaving atheist ought not be considered or named as reflective of atheism but rather viewed as "jerks" or "arseholes" (?)...I struggle to see how anyone breaching "Do unto others as you would......" with torture and death ought be considered 'Christian')

“..the sum total of goods that religion has contributed does not outweigh the sum total of negative consequences…”

I’m going to suggest that the proposition above is not only unverifiable but ultimately unknowable and that the position stated (or its opposite) can only be reached via the most superficial subjective personal inclination.

History (like newspapers) thrives on the horrific and dramatic…’The Inquisition’ is writ large as banner headline. The lives, joys, “goods” (spiritual and material) of those millions who embraced religion are rarely if ever recorded…it just aint news/history. This includes those millions who lived through the Inquisition/Holocaust and yet retained their faith.

Even were it possible to gain the personal account of every human being who had ever embraced, experienced or suffered a religion it would remain impossible to ascertain “the sum total of goods that religion has contributed”.

Such an assessment (one way or the other) is purely subjective/personal and cannot be based on any objective or historical data,

[cosmik debris]

37. Be careful, you may be accused of literalism

You cited the commandment "Thou shalt not kill." But in the context provided by the bible, that doesn't apply to the people god said to kill.

The bible is full of instructions from god to kill these people or those people.

So the Inquisition and the Crusades, being done at god's command, are exempt from the commandment.

They don't represent the failure of religion, but the raging success of religion!

[trotsky]

26. Imagine that! Your distorted and false caricature of atheists isn't really true.

We DON'T hate religion and everything associated with it. Your prejudices and knee-jerk reactions were wrong. Just as I was wrong that your strong defense of Islam and the Quran was an indicator of being a believer.

Of course when you aren't bashing and insulting others, labeling them with bogus terms, you might actually LEARN about them. Go figure.

[ironbark]

34. I’m not sure what is the more revealing

The disingenuous misrepresentations of what was actually said
or the ignoring of the corrections as new misrepresentations are hastened on to.

“ distorted and false caricature of atheists”

No blanket statement or ‘false caricature‘ regarding atheists or atheism.
The criticism was directed at the specific behaviour of some representatives thereof.



“ We DON'T hate religion and everything associated with it”.

Some do and have made that quite clear and explicit.

“Your prejudices and knee-jerk reactions were wrong.”

A “knee-jerk reactions” generally indicates an instant and impulsive response.
I made no such response…I took a good deal of time and I asked questions of others to determine the origin of their pov. More often than not those questions
went unanswered.

“Just as I was wrong that your strong defense of Islam and the Quran…”

You are once more wrong in suggesting that there was any “strong defence of Islam”. Islam was not under attack, I raised Islam in a comparative religion context (Re Christianity) and did so with the impartiality of any Comparative Religion class or text.
I was immediately (knee-jerk) expected to “defend” the Quran and to do so literally.

“…was an indicator of being a believer…”.

There was no “indicator of being a believer” other than the subject (fruits of Islam) was being presented without negativity, prejudice, bias or apologetics.
And >that< sufficed for the “believer” assumption to be made (and continued) as those who made the assumption refused to answer pertinent questions regarding the origin of their pov.


“Of course when you aren't bashing and insulting others, labeling them with bogus terms..."

I shall place the evidence you provide of my “bashing and insulting others” along with the evidence you previously provided for- “Or will you continue on the mean & dirty path with personal slurs..” .

Should your substantiation rise above zero….I’ll get back to you on it.

"you might actually LEARN about them.”

That would be nice.
But in the past and at the moment I have only enough time to mop up the assumptions and misrepresentations projected upon my pov by others.

But I am learning a great deal about them in the process ;-)

[trotsky]

38. The term is used as an insult

and it is clearly intended as one.

Your nasty attitude and continued antagonism toward me, when I have already apologized for the grave sin of mistaking you for a believer, tells me all I need to know about your character.

Good day.

[ironbark]

43. Zero substantiation of your allegations

and now you close off with a vague reference to ‘The term’ (The one whos name we must not speak Harry?)

“ an insult and it is clearly intended as one”.

You are invited (nay challenged) to link to the post that contained such “insult” directed at you or at any individual.
You are also invited (nay challenged) to reveal the post/s of mine from which you ascertain “intent” that runs counter to my clearly stated pov.

Until then, yet again. I shall place the evidence you provide of my “clearly intended insult” with that for “bashing and insulting others” along with the evidence you previously provided for- “Or will you continue on the mean & dirty path with personal slurs..” .
Should your substantiation rise above zero….I’ll get back to you on it.

Here’s a plan Trotsky…why don’t you keep on repeating “intended insult” and “bashing and insulting others” and “nasty attitude” and “continued antagonism” over and over again without substantiation until folk believe- “Well…it has been alleged so often it must be true”………..hmmmmm?

Perhaps people will take it on faith...blind faith.

“already apologized for the grave sin of mistaking you for a believer”

Nice spin but wrong sin. (Sin. Said to be an Aramaic archery term for ‘missing the mark/target)
Your ‘evil’ (point at which the arrow landed having missed the mark) is not that you mistook me for a ‘Bible banger believer’ but that (then and now) you continue to fling allegations and refuse to pause to explain, justify or substantiate.

Apologising for one as you hasten to deliver a host more is the ‘sin’

“tells me all I need to know about your character”.

And therein resides the primary distinction between us Trotsky….you are prepared (in a single post) to claim insight into both my “intent” and my “character”….while providing ZERO ZIP ZILCH evidence to support your psychic assertions.

I on the other hand have, and will continue to, deal only with your explicit ‘behaviour’ie >what you actually say<
I have not and will not speculate about your character and intent…because I do not assume such godlike powers (nor expect of others belief in things unseen)

I have never asked or expected “apology”….I ask and expect the foundation of peace-
reason and fairness….substantiate or retract

[trotsky]

45. Every word you post substantiates my claim.

I'm tired of your continued belligerence and attitude. Please find someone else to bother.

[John Gauger]

30. Why do you have to come in here and dump on people?

You have been complaining about how nasty atheists are on this board, and then here you are derailing a perfectly civil thread. In fact, this thread displays the tolerance you have been so loudly extolling, cynatnite, varkam and Liberalmuse listing things they like about religion, and all you have to say is a nasty jibe disparaging those who have just cooperated with your aims. What is your reasoning behind such behavior?

[ironbark]

36. You don’t do irony or tongue in cheek humour do you?

Thought “Christmas Carols” as a “glorious concession” and an excited exclamation mark might serve as a clue.

Hoped reference to “high religious culture, art and music” = “ “'Ben Hur', 'King of Kings' “ might have underlined the absurdity.

Maybe the mock excitement ("WHAT'S NEXT"!)was lost because the above are considered high art and culture?

Personally I prefer the Simpsons

“Don’t have a cow man”

;-)

[John Gauger]

40. Of course I knew were being fascetious.

If you were actually praising those people doing what you wanted them to do, I would have commended your spirit of conciliation. But you were mocking them. Your irony is precisely the reason I said you were dumping on them.

[trotsky]

39. EXCELLENT post.

Thank you, John Gauger. :thumbsup:

[John Gauger]

41. Thank you.

That means a lot coming from a poster I respect as much as you.

[RebelOne]

24. I'm an atheist also, but 2 of my favorite songs are

"Spirit in the Sky," by Norman Greenbaum and "Jesus Is Just Alright With Me," by The Doobie Brothers. It's not so much the words, but I love the beat.

[Goblinmonger]

29. Jesus Walking on the Water by the Violent Femmes

Good shit there.

[and-justice-for-all]

32. In the past I listened to a lot of xtian rock/metal....

I stopped buying it however, but what still have is some kick ass bands. Obviously, since I am an Atheist, the message never settled in me.

My favorite band for years was..STRYPER. I also really liked BRIDE, BARREN CROSS, WHITECROSS, RAGE OF ANGELS, HOLY SOILDER, BELIEVER, TOURNIQUIET, JET CIRCUS and others. All because they were good bands, they failed to convert me for some reason.

[Lyric]

44. I'm an atheist too, and I tear up at Christmas whenever I hear

a choir singing "O Holy Night" and "O Come All Ye Faithful".

Passionate music is passionate music--no religion required to love it.

[knitter4democracy]

47. That just means that beauty touches you.

Beauty is truth, truth beauty. That's all you know and all you need to know. :)

I'm a Christian, and I find a mathematical proof a thing of beauty (not that I always understand it), and I love reading Hubby's medical journals for fun. I enjoy the beauty in mosques and Buddhist and Hindu temples and the kachinas of the Hopi. Beauty is part of life, I think, and if it's missing from our lives, then our lives are barely worth living.