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Does anyone EVER admit to being brainwashed?

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Evoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-25-08 03:42 AM
Original message
Does anyone EVER admit to being brainwashed?
I've always considered the question interesting, and I'm posing it to this group. How do you know whether or not your'e brainwashed?

Here's my thought...nobody EVER seems to admit that they are brain-washed. Most people assume that their viewpoints or opinions are reasonable, rational, or well thought out. Many people have come to realize that they have been brain-washed...but it's always looking back. "I WAS brain-washed" or "I USED TO BE brainwashed".

So? How can you identify if you are brainwashed? Do you necessarily believe that somebody CAN BE brainwashed? How can you see it in yourself?
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mrreowwr_kittty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-25-08 03:46 AM
Response to Original message
1. Well, it would kind of defeat the purpose of brainwashing if you realized it while it was happening
So I guess it goes to show that something has to happen to interfere with the brainwashing, like an intervention, to make you realize it. :shrug:
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Heidi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-25-08 03:58 AM
Response to Original message
2. Sure. Why not? I can remember a time when I was struggling with a conservative Christian upbringing.
Edited on Fri Jul-25-08 03:59 AM by Heidi
It occurred to me then (I was about 16) that people admit to having a addictions, so why shouldn't I admit to struggling with long-held beliefs that made me feel cozy and warm while at the same time questioning whether they were rational beliefs?
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varkam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-25-08 05:02 AM
Response to Original message
3. I think that some might admit to it, but I also think...
that they wouldn't call it brainwashing. Brainwashing, aside from being sort of a folk-psychological term, has some pretty serious negative connotations attached to it (a lot of that stems from the Korean and Cold Wars, IMHO).
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soothsayer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-25-08 06:19 AM
Response to Original message
4. Did Patty Hearst?
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charlie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-25-08 06:23 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. Yeah, that's one who did
if I remember right. That was her defense, wasn't it?
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knitter4democracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-25-08 06:30 AM
Response to Original message
6. I know some former evangelicals who do.
I'm not as comfortable with the term, myself. Even though my mom converted and joined the Nazarene church when I was ten, she never pressured me to join. I had a conversion experience at 13 and joined when I was 15, but I remember going over the decisions very carefully. My dad's a true skeptic and agnostic, and my stepmom hated my mom's very existence, so I had a lot of pressure to go the other way and join my stepmom's church or, as my dad would've preferred, not be a Christian at all.

While my mom fell for everything in the church hook, line, and sinker, I knew I would have to explain it all to my dad and so made sure to really study up on things and make my own decisions. Some of the stuff the Nazarene pastors and preachers advocated made no sense to me (no rock and roll music? whatever), and I remember sitting in the pew thinking they were crazy.

I joined that church and stayed in it until college (even going to a Nazarene college) because the people there were loving and kind and supportive of me. No one tried to break me down or hurt me like at my dad's house, and no one blamed me for anything that wasn't my fault. They became a real family to me, and that's what I needed at the time.
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Meshuga Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-25-08 07:13 AM
Response to Original message
7. Does the brainwashed realize he/she is braiwashed?
I think it is probably easier to admit that you "USED TO BE brainwashed" than to say that you are brainwashed. People who are brainwashed don't know they are brainwashed so it is understandable they don't admit to being brainwashed.
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Jim__ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-25-08 07:56 AM
Response to Original message
8. George Romney, Mitt's father, when he was running for the republican nomination in 1967.
Edited on Fri Jul-25-08 07:59 AM by Jim__
On August 31, 1967, Governor Romney made a statement that ruined his chances for getting the nomination.<12> In a taped interview with Lou Gordon of WKBD-TV in Detroit, Romney stated, "When I came back from Viet Nam , I'd just had the greatest brainwashing that anybody can get."
more...

He was flip-flopping on his position on the Vietnam War at the time. Like father, like son.
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conscious evolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-25-08 09:11 AM
Response to Original message
9. I have been brainwashed
And I know it.I am also working on breaking it too.

Boy.What a pain in the ass it is.
The worst thing is not knowing what else they have infected my mind with.
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SidneyCarton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-25-08 11:07 AM
Response to Original message
10. Part of brainwashing is really wanting to believe.
There is always a choice. That is why those who claim they were brainwashed always tend to have a certain amount of trauma going on before their "conversion" Hence Patty Hearst, Kidnapped, brutalized, raped, and all the time indoctrinated. I suppose a bit of "stockholm syndrome" involved there too. With many cult members one sees people in a state of reduced capacity, addiction, drug abuse, low self esteem, financial difficulty, marital collapse, etc. Under such circumstances, a person will believe in just about anything if it promises to get them out of the awful straits they're in, regardless of rationality. Indeed, the more dire the straits, the more irrational the belief that becomes credible.
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Evoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-25-08 11:17 AM
Response to Original message
11. Another question, and one that I was trying to lead to:
And one that may offend some people (which I really don't mean to do, but oh well).

If you subscribe to the same religion or ideology as your parents, or the majority of your society, is it possible you are brainwashed and don't realize it?

The reason that I ask this is because to a large degree, religion is geographical. A lot of people of the same religion are often located within the same country, or area. Now, I realize a possible counter argument to this is that we are transference of ideology or religion is not brainwashing...its more like transfering values, which is a fair point.

But here is the thing...is the transfer of "values" brainwashing if we don't know why we have them?

The reason I'm asking this (so you know where I'm coming from). I recently went to a catholic wedding....and after the ceremony, people started lining up to receive the juice and crackers of Jesus. Now, most people here know what I think of that. But as I sat there and watched, I realized there seemed to be no rational reason to believe that crackers turn into Jesus. Most of these people (I knew many of them) have been catholics since they were born.

Is the whole thing brainwashing? You got to the same church over and over since your a kid, chanting and singing, getting no other opinions.....is it brainwashing?

And an even more potentially offensive question to religious DUers.....how do you *know* that your religion isn't just brainwashing? Since nobody ever seems to think they are brainwashed?
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-25-08 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Reasons
Because I've come to the conclusion that no one really knows, and this is the way that I feel comfortable approaching the Divine.

Because I left the church of my childhood and heritage and joined a different one

Because I've done a lot of reading in comparative religions

As for the people lined up for Communion, do you actually KNOW that they believe in transubstantiation? They may be cultural Catholics, just as a lot of Japanese are cultural Buddhists.

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Az Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-25-08 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. Thats conditioning not brainwashing
Brainwashing implies overriding existing thought processes. If you are a parent then it is your job to condition your child to think as you do to a relative amount. You are going to have a difficult time trying to shake up that tree. Unless of course you are proposing a Brave New World solution where all children are taken away from parents and raised by the state. That should go over swell.
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SidneyCarton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-25-08 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. I am probably more orthodox than my parents in the faith I was raised in
Most people don't know why they value democracy (how many million Americans voted for W?) Are we brainwashed into belief in democracy then? I believe I love my daughter, I can't tell you why (she generally causes more inconveniences than benefits at the ripe age of 14 months) but I nonetheless do.

There is no rational reason for religious belief, but Human beings are not wholly rational. Perhaps we theists are "brainwashed," but by extension this would argue that any belief in that which is not demonstrable is to some degree "brainwashing," and only cynics are truly freethinkers, if that is your base argument, than run with it. I cannot say I agree, but then again, my opinion counts for little, being "brainwashed" and all...
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-25-08 03:38 PM
Response to Original message
14. Let's try to be clear what "brainwash" means. It's a Korean War era term, of disputed significance:
According to Jeffrey K. Hadden, the concept of brainwashing first came into public use during the Korean War in the 1950s as an explanation for why a few American GIs appeared to defect to the Communists. Brainwashing consisted of the notion that the Chinese communists had discovered a mysterious and effective method of causing deep and permanent behavioral changes in prisoners of war ...

http://www.psychologistworld.com/influence_personality/brainwashing.php


Here's a discussion from a military website:

... Daily propaganda lectures and broadcasts that attacked capitalist society were conducted, and the CCF persuaded some POWs to sign peace petitions and make pro-communist statements. The term "brainwashing" obtained notoriety at this time and caused concern to American authorities. Brainwashing was defined as an intense and prolonged psychological process designed to erase an individual's past beliefs and to substitute new ones. Even though some American POWs collaborated with their captors, most of them did so for personal convenience. No confirmed cases of brainwashing came out of the Korean War ...


The techniques alleged in the Korean war era were those now used by the US at GITMO:

China Inspired Interrogations at Guantánamo
By SCOTT SHANE
Published: July 2, 2008

... Several Guantánamo documents, including the chart outlining coercive methods, were made public at a Senate Armed Services Committee hearing June 17 that examined how such tactics came to be employed.

But committee investigators were not aware of the chart’s source in the half-century-old journal article, a connection pointed out to The New York Times by an independent expert on interrogation who spoke on condition of anonymity.

The 1957 article from which the chart was copied was entitled “Communist Attempts to Elicit False Confessions From Air Force Prisoners of War” and written by Albert D. Biderman, a sociologist then working for the Air Force, who died in 2003. Mr. Biderman had interviewed American prisoners returning from North Korea, some of whom had been filmed by their Chinese interrogators confessing to germ warfare and other atrocities.

Those orchestrated confessions led to allegations that the American prisoners had been “brainwashed,” and provoked the military to revamp its training to give some military personnel a taste of the enemies’ harsh methods to inoculate them against quick capitulation if captured ...

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/02/us/02detain.html?_r=1&hp=&pagewanted=all&oref=slogin


There is no question that some American cold warriors were fascinated with the idea that human behavior might be engineered and re-engineered

Gov't settles with CIA brainwashing survivor
Updated Tue. Jul. 3 2007 5:43 PM ET

Canadian Press

MONTREAL -- A Montreal senior who survived Cold War-era brainwashing experiments picked up a cheque for compensation from the federal government .... which jointly funded the experiments with the Central Intelligence Agency ...

On and off for ... 15 years, she was one of hundreds of patients of Dr. Ewan Cameron subjected to experimental treatments that included massive electroshock therapy, experimental pills and LSD ...

The experiments were part of a larger CIA program called MK-ULTRA, which saw LSD administered to U.S. prison inmates and patrons of brothels without their knowledge, according to testimony before a 1977 U.S. Senate committee ...

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20070703/cia_lawsuit_070703/20070703


Since then the term "brainwashing" has acquired a vaguer and more general sense

Fuzzy Definition, Poor Resolution: Early Television, The Korean War and the Brainwashed American Mind
by Alan Nadel

... I have started with this anecdote to introduce two central points of this talk: one, that Cold War brainwashing was not a myth, and two, that it was fundamentally connected to understanding the world televisually. In regard to that second point, let us remember that the word television has numerous, discrete meanings. A television is an appliance. It is also a set of programs; the thing one watches when one watches television, after all, in not the television set, but the signals that the appliance receives and decodes, signals produced outside and independent of it. Television is also an activity outside of and independent of the programs, such that one can decide to spend the evening watching television without having any specific program in mind. Television is also a medium, a mode of organization and presentation. Finally, and most subtly but also most pervasively, it is a way of knowing the world, a mediation between knowledge and identity, a way of fixing the self in the matrices of time, space, distance, history, and the myriad nodes of personal affiliation.

On this last sense of television I shall focus in order to suggest some of the connections between it and the sundry indeterminacies that the Korean War introduced into global consciousness, particularly the concept of brainwashing as the evil Other of the national conformity promoted by American television. In this light, I want to suggest that the Korean War and television both helped give credibility to brainwashing as a perpetuation of the narrative of demonic otherness that has infused American culture in numerous forms since the colonial period. Although nearly half a century's distance makes it impossible to reconstruct fully the impact of television's arrival, I think we have to suppose it would have been organized and construed differently had it not entered the public imaginary at roughly the same time as the atomic bomb, the babyboom, McCarthyism, suburbia, and the Korean War; had it not entered the lives of a nation fixated on politically mandated normality and obsessed with uprooting non-conformists; had it not become the unifying common experience of a nation constantly on the watch, lest it blink and its unprecedented prosperity be stolen, unobserved, by subversives ...

Television, in other words, supported a way of knowing the world consistent with the principles attributed to communist brainwashing, the chief common characteristic being a relentless indoctrination into a set of homogeneous norms. The goal of brainwashing is to create in the subject a different understanding of reality, an outcome made possible only through a set of scientific advances, allegedly based on the work of the Russian psychologist Ivan Pavlov. In his classic 1956 study of brainwashing in Korea (a sequel to his 1951 book on brainwashing in China), Edward Hunter portrays as Pavlov an old man duped by the Soviets. Hunter found most threatening the implication in Pavlov’s work that humans are animals. He describes a central scene in a Russian film, titled The Nervous System, demonstrating that a dog could be taught to salivate. Hunter viewed the film with novelist Ayn Rand and another friend named Dr. Leon Freedom. (Dr. Freedom, according to Hunter, was a professional "neuropsychiatrist" not, as one might assume from his name, a professional wrestler). For this sage triumvirate—Hunter, Rand, and Dr. F—the scene revealed something "unnatural," as signified by what they regarded as an oxymoron: the phrase "conditioned-reflex" ...

Far from deploying the best of American art, performance, or reportage, however, in practice television presented the nation’s lowest common denominators. With two networks monopolizing the competition for viewers, the safe, the cliched, and the uncontroversial had enormous advantage over the experimental, the original, and the challenging. This economic mandate when applied to the concept of citizenship obviously effected a very conservative citizen. Television could thus function as the site of "democracy" to the extent that "democracy"--representing what the most people had in common—was defined in opposition to "idiosyncrasy." Broadcasting nationalized the common person in every way that his or her values were common rather than unique, cliched rather than original, status quo rather than progressive ...

http://www.trumanlibrary.org/korea/nadel.htm


Clearly, a number of GITMO inmates complain of being subjected to techniques classically associated with brainwashing. And Janine Huard certainly knows she was damaged by CIA's effort to develop analogs of such techniques. Moreover, for many years, a number of Americans have been aware of the "relentless indoctrination into a set of homogeneous norms" promoted by corporate media such as television.


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