Any significance to the fact that Christians eat ham and leavened bread on Easter

[BurtWorm]

when Jesus was supposedly celebrating Pesach? Why, in other words, do Christians seem to go out of their way to eat nonkosher on their holiest holiday?

:wtf:

[azmouse]

1. ummm ...because we're Christians and not Jews?

And my family has lamb on Easter.

[BurtWorm]

3. But if you follow the Bible, as Christians, why aren't you following kashrut?

The Muslims follow it in their way. I don't get that.

[azmouse]

18. We follow the New Testament not the old.

I'm not a biblical scholar, I just know that Jesus' death changed everything.

[BurtWorm]

25. Ok. Makes sense (as far as these things go ever make sense.)

It just seems a little hostile, but maybe that's just me.

[azmouse]

27. See, now you have me curious.

How is it hostile?

[BurtWorm]

29. Christians in Europe, where the ham-eating tradition started, have a long history of anti-Semitism.

They have their bibles. The old testament may not be the key testament for them, but it isn't nothing to them or they would have ditched it entirely. But they do keep the laws in tact, as though they mean *something*. So they know about kashrut. They know about cloven hooves being verboten. They know about the traditions their lord and savior himself was supposedly honoring on Pesach when he was killed. So how do they choose to honor their lord during the season of Pesach? With food that isn't kosher? Probably to most rank-and-file Christians it's an innocent continuation of pagan tradition. But to one who is steeped in the heavy religiosity of the day, I don't know how you could miss the blatant non-Jewishness of the feast.

[azmouse]

30. I'd have to say that Christians treatment of Jews down through history

has been nothing but shameful. I've never understood it myself.
How can they justify their horrible behavior toward a religion that was the cornerstone of Christianity?
And the religion of the one they consider their Savior?

I've personally never felt that way. And please realize most Christians do not have anti-Semitic feelings.

[kestrel91316]

32. You actually have an interesting point. It is entirely possible that

blatant anti-semitism is behind the origins of eating ham at Easter (and Christmas). But I don't know if it could ever be proven, and certainly in this day and age I can't imagine anybody doing it as a conscious slap in the face to Jews.

[muriel_volestrangler]

49. See #48 - eating ham appears to be an American custom, not European (nt)

[kestrel91316]

31. Ham tends to be eaten at celebrations. It's a big piece of meat,

like a turkey, and preparing and serving it is a holiday tradition. I don't care for it myself, but will be eating some small amount this Sunday when it gets served, lol. Leavened bread is just normal bread for Anglo-Saxons, lol. There is no cultural tradition of unleavened bread in thr British Isles, other than maybe Scottish oatcakes? So that's not a deliberate omission - to WASPs, who ever HEARD of unyeasted or unrisen bread other than tortillas, and those would definitely be out of place at Easter dinner.

Supposedly when Jesus died on the cross for our sins, he did away with the "old" covenant with God and we got a new one. So Christians don't follow kosher dietary laws or do any of the other stuff demanded of Jews in Leviticus and whatever. And don't ask my why some Christians feel obligated to consider homosexuality an abomination, because they sure don't give a damn about anything else in Leviticus.

[BurtWorm]

33. What is the point of keeping the Old Testament around if it's irrelevant?

And if it isn't irrelevant, why blatantly ignore in it what's relevant to the people who wrote it, like their laws?

[Occam Bandage]

34. For much the same reason copies of the Constitution often

contain the Magna Carta, the Declaration of Independence, and the Federalist papers, despite none being law.

[BurtWorm]

35. Which is?

(Why not keep the code of Hammurabi with the Bible? Why keep the stories and not just the law? Or why keep the law if the stories are more relevant? Why not all the holy texts of Judaism, why just Torah and Tenakh?)

[Occam Bandage]

38. Background.

Without the law and the Psalms, much of what Jesus says in the NT is incomprehensible. After all, he spends much of his time talking about his interpretation of the law (and arguing about the law with scholars), and it is difficult to understand a counterargument unless you first understand what the original argument was. The stories provide a background to God's pre-Christ relationship to humanity, and to the development of the cultural tradition into which Jesus came. They serve a more practical purpose as well; every popular religion needs a creation story and an epic history.

As for Code of Hammurabi? That's useful historical background from our perspective, but isn't related to the Jewish law nor the Christian within the theology of either.

[BurtWorm]

40. Jesus doesn't argue with the law. He argues with the ones he says are law breakers.

Doesn't he say over and over his quarrel is not with the law?

[Occam Bandage]

41. He does indeed. I said he quarrels about the law, not quarrels with the law.

He claims the two greatest commandments in the law are love of God and love of neighbor, with the rest serving only as subordinates to those. After all, to the Jesus of the Gospels it amounts to a violation of the law to obey the injunction against working on the Sabbath if such obedience prevents one from coming to the aid of his neighbor, and it is an act of hypocrisy to carry out the legally-mandated death penalty for sexual immorality.

[azmouse]

36. Maybe this will help answer your question:

http://www.amfi.org/mailbag/busdriver.htm

The laws of Leviticus and Deuteronomy are part of God's covenant with the nation of Israel and have never applied to the world at large. Even rabbinic Judaism does not expect or even desire for non-Jews to keep all of these commandments.

[BurtWorm]

37. So why are they integrated into the Christian Canon?

[azmouse]

39. Seems like it is done for the history.

To understand the New we must understand the Old.



BTW... thank you for a good conversation here. It's nice to see religion discussed with no insults, just an attempt to understand each other.


edited for misspelling.

[Bad Thoughts]

54. That only makes sense from the Jewish perspective

Jews don't require non-Jews to follow the Mitzvot. Christians, however, consider their faith to be a continuation of Judaism, based on the life of a Jewish man.

[kestrel91316]

42. You're asking ME?????

:rofl:

I may know a fair bit about religion and what's in the bible. That doesn't mean I agree with it all, or think it makes any sense.

[JerseygirlCT]

47. Yeah, I'm pretty sure ham wasn't part of Christian practice

What the OP is talking about is, rather, cultural tradition. And ham is likely a tradition followed by people from places where pigs were more easily raised. Others have lamb, as you do. I'm not a fan of either, so the few times I've hosted an Easter dinner, we've had turkey!

What one celebrates with on Easter as far as food has no religious significance. It's family and cultural tradition, nothing more.

[Cirque du So-What]

2. Some of us who will be having Easter dinner

haven't even been circumsized!

[MADem]

4. Ham is a more modern menu choice--the "classic" is lamb.

Some people have a roast beef or a turkey. There's no "rule" about it.

If you come from a heritage where ham was the happening celebratory meal, odds are you'll get ham.

[Occam Bandage]

5. Because it's a feast day, and those are feast foods in Europe/America.

As for being Kosher? Acts 10: 9-16.

About noon the following day as they were on their journey and approaching the city, Peter went up on the roof to pray. He became hungry and wanted something to eat, and while the meal was being prepared, he fell into a trance. He saw heaven opened and something like a large sheet being let down to earth by its four corners. It contained all kinds of four-footed animals, as well as reptiles of the earth and birds of the air. Then a voice told him, "Get up, Peter. Kill and eat."

"Surely not, Lord!" Peter replied. "I have never eaten anything impure or unclean."

The voice spoke to him a second time, "Do not call anything impure that God has made clean."

This happened three times, and immediately the sheet was taken back to heaven.

[BurtWorm]

7. Well, if it happened three times...

:patriot:

[Occam Bandage]

12. People tend to argue with God a bit more than I would think reasonable in the Bible.

I'm not sure why we are supposed to wholeheartedly and unquestioningly accept the Bible as the inerrant word of God when Biblical characters as holy and beloved as the Rock of Christ don't even take God Himself on his explicit word unless the Almighty repeats himself over and over again.

[rateyes]

11. And, that passage is more about Peter's refusal to associate with Gentiles

than it is about food. That passage should show RW, fundy Christians that bigotry of any kind is disallowed by their faith. But, as we know, it hasn't had that effect on them. Fundies are some of the most hateful, bigoted, spiteful people I've known.

[Occam Bandage]

13. Certainly it is. My interpretation is that God is informing Peter

that he has made nothing unclean, from food to Romans.

[Sal316]

26. ..and that's the correct interpretation. (eom)

[laconicsax]

45. Are all others are heresy?

:shrug:

[Occam Bandage]

50. I'm not sure what you're intending to imply.

"Heresy" is a rather loaded word, and I'm not sure why you would use that and not "incorrect." Surely you do not think it is offensive for someone to have an opinion as to the appropriate interpretation of a mildly ambiguous text. If I were to have said, "I think the ending of Catcher in the Rye demonstrates that alienation from a society in which one remains a member is hypocritical and unsustainable," and someone who agrees with that were to have replied, "That is the correct interpretation," that does not mean he is implying that all other interpretations are heretical, only that he finds them mistaken.

[laconicsax]

53. I'm not sure I was intending to imply anything.

I prefer to say precisely what I mean whenever possible.

[Occam Bandage]

56. It's unfortunate that language is so often incapable of conveying a single clear meaning.

But were that not the case, we couldn't talk around what we really want to say.

[Sal316]

52. If you go by what heresy actually is.....

...then yes.

The word "heresy" comes from the Greek αἵρεσις, hairesis (from αἱρέομαι, haireomai, "choose"), which means either a choice of beliefs or a faction of believers, or a school of thought.

[ZombieHorde]

44. "he has made nothing unclean"

God has obviously never smelled the sick farts he gave me a couple of weeks ago.

[rateyes]

51. Yeah. I was just adding, not disagreeing.

:hi:

[drm604]

6. Eating leavened bread is hardly going out of the way.

I eat bread pretty much every day of the year.

[ensho]

8. the Pork Barons think its a grand idea to have ham for easter

all the TV ads tell you so

[rateyes]

9. Some eat ham, some don't. What one eats is not a big deal for Christians.

It's not what goes in a person that makes that person unclean, it's what comes out of the heart that makes a person unclean.

But, you make a good point when it comes to the fundamentalist inerrantists, because they have to explain away that contradiction in the scriptures.

[PassingFair]

10. Just as long as no one touches THESE!

http://www.landoverbaptist.org/eastereggs.html

[rateyes]

15. Dammit. I'm dyeing Easter Eggs tonight with my kids...

You've now blown my cover. :evilgrin:

[hlthe2b]

22. That's it... I'm changing the menu to Colorado Oysters....

;)

[MissMarple]

14. I found two things on a quick google.

Easter comes at the end of winter and pretty much any meat left aside from a fresh slaughter would be cured or preserved in some way. The other is it may be from a myth about Ishtar and Tammuz. That one seemed a bit far fetched but has some plausibility. When I was growing up in the midwest we occasionally had ham, but more often it was turkey.

We didn't have unleavened bread. All of our breads had yeast or baking powder. And rumor has it that unleavened bread was not on the menu when the Isrealites fled Egypt, they didn't have time to let the bread rise, hence flatbread.

[blueworld]

16. Easter eggs are Chinese, I think

I'm guessing that a great, if not majority number, of the original Christians were the "gentiles" converted by St. Paul. They did not begin their lives as Jews. I also believe I read somewhere (long, long ago!) that a gift of 100 colored duck eggs was an ancient Chinese custom, given at weddings etc. as a wish for fertility.

Whatever.

I'm just grateful that the Easter Bunny (Hasenpffefer? I ain't lookin' up the spelling) brings me chocolate, which is my favorite spiritual food.

Mazel Tov.
:party:

[Marrah_G]

19. Easter is a renamed Feast day of Oestara- A Holy day focused on fertility rites for Spring.

Eggs and Bunnies = Symbols of Fertility

The name for this Sabbat actually comes from that of the Teutonic lunar Goddess, Eostre. Her chief symbols were the rabbit (for fertility and because the Ancient Ones who worshipped her often saw the image of a rabbit in the full moon), and the egg, representing the cosmic egg of creation.(See any similarities here?). On this sacred day, Witches light new fires at sunrise, rejoice, ring bells and decorate hard boiled eggs - an ancient pagan custom associated with this ancient Goddess of fertility.

Ēostre

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Ostara (1884) by Johannes Gehrts. The goddess flies through the heavens surrounded by Roman-inspired putti, beams of light, and animals. Germanic people look up at the goddess from the realm below.

Old English Ēostre (also Ēastre) and Old High German Ôstarâ are the names of a putative Germanic goddess eponymous of the the Christian festival of Easter. The goddess is attested by Bede as the namesake of the Anglo-Saxon month Ēostur-monath. Bede solely mentions Eostre in his 8th century work De temporum ratione, where he states that Ēostur-monath was the equivalent to the month of April, and that feasts held her in honor during Ēostur-monath had died out by the time of his writing, replacing the "Paschal month." The possibility of a Common Germanic goddess called *Austrōn-, reflecting the name of the Proto-Indo-European goddess of the dawn, was examined in detail in 19th century Germanic philology, by Jacob Grimm and others, without coming to a definite conclusion.

Eostre is attested only by Bede and subsequently scholars have produces theories about whether or not Eostra is an invention of Bede's, and theories connecting Eostra with records of Germanic Easter customs (including hares and eggs).

[Occam Bandage]

23. Eostre may or may not have existed.

There's only one historical reference to such a god, from one Catholic writer--who claims that worship of Eostre was already dead, meaning his information was at best second-hand. It may well be that "Easter" is nothing but a confused attempt by the Catholic church to ingratiate itself with the English locals by referencing a goddess that only existed in the confused mind of an old man.

Edit: I see you've already mentioned that in an edit, so, well, never mind.

[azmouse]

24. Early Christians definitely stole a lot of their celebrations from other religions.

They did it mainly to get a buy-in to their new faith.
Christmas is other 'holiday' that was combined with other early religions.

[Occam Bandage]

20. ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easter_egg#Origin_and_folklore

[knitter4democracy]

63. Actually, there's an old pagan tradition of coloring them from Slavic peoples.

Look at Ukranian and Russian eggs. The symbols are pre-Christian usually, as are the colors and techniques. They were co-opted when the Rus forced everyone to convert after 988.

[Marrah_G]

17. Because they just renamed other religions feast days.....

There is hardly any real religious significance to holidays anymore. They are more cultural then religious.

[hlthe2b]

21. Because it is the "other white meat?"

;)

[Kali]

28. lots of people have lamb

some have turkey

I have no idea why christians do a lot of the things they do. I'm neither but I do eat ham on easter. And au gratin potatoes, asparagus, deviled (!) eggs, strawberries and pound cake.:9

[Lydia Leftcoast]

43. I don't know about the ham, but isn't leavened bread the dafault option?

:shrug:

Eating unleavened bread is specifically a Passover observance. We don't observe Passover, so we carry on as normal with bread.

[laconicsax]

46. Christianity is built on the premise that the Old Testament laws don't apply.

[muriel_volestrangler]

48. Actual traditional Easter food here (no ham):

Lent is the period of 40 days which comes before Easter, beginning on Ash Wednesday. For many Christians, this is a period of fasting and repentance in preparation for Easter, culminating in a feast of seasonal and symbolic foods. In the late 17th century, girls in service brought a rich fruit cake called simnel cake home to their mothers on the fourth Sunday of Lent. The cake was enriched with marzipan and decorated with 11 marzipan balls representing the 12 apostles minus Judas, who betrayed Christ.
...
The Greeks and Egyptians ate small cakes or buns in honour of the respective goddesses that they worshipped. Buns marked with a cross were eaten by the Saxons to honour their goddess Eostre - it is thought the bun represented the moon and the cross the moon's quarters. To Christians, the cross symbolises the crucifixion.
...
The tradition of colouring eggs in bright colours - representing the sunlight of spring - goes back to the Middle Ages and is still an important custom for many Christians. In Germany it's traditional to paint eggs green and eat them on Maundy Thursday while in Greek and Slavic cultures eggs are dyed red as a symbol of the blood of Christ.
...
Another traditional symbol of Easter is the rabbit. Known for its fertility, it symbolises new life. The lamb was adopted from the lamb sacrificed at Jewish Passover and for Christians it came to signify Christ's death on the cross.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/food/news_and_events/events_eastertraditions.shtml

This web page blames the ham on Americans

No pork products listed in French traditional Easter food

goat or kid as the main course in Naples (a bit of pork products amongst a lot of other stuff like veal and beef in a starter)

no ham listed in German traditions either

From Spain, a bit of pork sausage, alongside more veal and goat

So, I think 'tradition' in this case consists of what some of the USA does.

[The Sushi Bandit]

55. They all should EAT CROW

LOL

[Why Syzygy]

57. Last year I had beans and rice,

just the same as every other day during that time. Did I miss a blessing?

[Sanctified]

58. The rules for not eating pork does not apply to Gentiles. n/t

[Duke Newcombe]

59. Your concern is noted.

Thanks for looking out for us.

[davidinalameda]

60. I had fish and chips for lunch and am having pizza right now

it is pepperoni though

[JerseygirlCT]

61. Sounds good! nt

[davidinalameda]

62. the pizza wasn't that good

fairly tasteless

[knitter4democracy]

64. Yes, because a faith that's 2000 years old isn't going to change or anything.

If you read in Acts, you'll find the story of the apostles arguing over whether to keep kosher or not and ultimately deciding not to force new converts (especially Gentiles) to.

In the two millenia since, and in the spread of the faith through many divergent and different cultures, the celebration of the feasts has changed. Now, the Greek and Antiochian orthodox still follow a lot of the earliest traditions (eating lamb, etc.), sure, but ham is traditional in the Russian Orthodox church (around since 988) as well as a basket of non-Lenten foods for the priest to bless on Easter morning. The Russian foods are more pagan in origin, as are the pussy willows we wave instead of palms (also, it's not like palm trees grow easily in Russia, while pussy willows are easier to find in early spring).

The egg is seen as an easy way to explain the theology of the Triune God (three in one, needing all three to be whole) and so has become a common symbol at Easter, where God was made manifest.