Not trying to disrespect anyone's religious beliefs but I really want to know.

[shadowknows69]

How many self described Christians here on DU actually believe in the Passion Story? The actual death and ressurection of a supposedly divine human being. And if you really don't, why would it upset you if someone makes fun of the notion?

Where is the outrage at the theft of older belief system's significant times of year to craft Christian Holidays around?




BTW-Jesus was probably actually Ra, or a well-traveled Buddisht.;)


Sorry I did mean to put a wink smiley here originally but it didn't take.

[bigtree]

1. believe it or not

. . . it's a really great story.

[shadowknows69]

2. Read it, use to wear the T-Shirt

Then I started realizing how similar it was to nearly every major mythology in history. Kind of puts a strain on the Bible's credibility factor IMO.

[bigtree]

4. stories are useful

We all must realize that our beliefs will ultimately be tested by the progression of time. I think the similarities are, themselves, interesting to ponder and reflect on.

[Goblinmonger]

98. Agreed

but you don't need to be a theist to learn from the story of the passion. And you can learn just as much from The Great Gatsby (and the writing's better).

[stray cat]

3. How many DUers currently practice the ancient belief systems that were usurped?

that might be proportional to the lack of outrage? Also, its amazing how many belief systems are similar in aspects. In terms of evolution the similarity of all creatures adds credence to their evolutionary history . One could argue the similarity of religious beliefs may reflect a coherent basic truth behind them all.

[shadowknows69]

7. I observe many of them and I know quite a few Pagans on DU

So the majority religion is the State religion now? Somehow that seems to conflict with a little something called the Bill of Rights.

[vadawg]

15. probuably none who had it passed down, but from books or dvds

it always amuses me when the religious rights of someone who gets their views from having watched a movie or read a book is protected but if you follow one of the mainstream religions you get lambasted to hell and back on DU.

[shadowknows69]

30. WTF is the Bible? A piece of bratwurst?

And plenty of Christians go to books and movies like the "Left Behind"/"Late Great Planet Earth" sects. How is that constructively obtained faith?

[H2O Man]

36. Relatively few

DUers seem to mention those books. I haven't seen any christian DUers offer them up as evidence to support their position.

[shadowknows69]

48. Me either, and you were right to call me on that.

But I was once a member of a whole church of them and I know how dangerous and stifling to personal growth blind faith can be.

[chaplainM]

66. Your right to worship as you please doesn' t include...

...freedom from being lambasted to hell and back. That's how free speech works.

[shadowknows69]

68. True that, too many people have a persecution complex about their beliefs

And some justifiably so, but as you said, free speech sucks if you don't like what's being said.

[JerseygirlCT]

121. That would be my argument, stray cat.

I don't find earlier mythology or stories to be threatening, or to take away from the particular way I practice. I find the similarities underlying so much religious practice just underline for me the idea that God is. And that we humans, in our almost infinite variety, perceive God differently, find God in different places and relate to God in different ways.

And I don't think you can really usurp someone's beliefs. Certainly, Christianity as it spread, overlay the earlier beliefs of the people - but if it wasn't somehow compelling to them, I don't think they would have remained with Christianity in the numbers that they have. (Although I do think there's something of a resurgence of older pagan beliefs these days - which is sort of interesting.)

In any case, those seeking the divine and doing so in love and treating others well could never be seen as anything but good to me. Definitely an area where I think God cares much more about how we treat one another than which way we practice a religion, or even whether we do practice a religion.

[Marrah_G]

161. Not to get pissy but much of it was spread through force and intimidation.

The burning times were a bitch.....

[Marrah_G]

160. Hi ! Old way follower here...and a DUer

[MineralMan]

5. Here's a question: Why do you care what others believe?

Why test people by making fun of their beliefs? What is the point of that?

Threads are being locked on DU to because people are doing just what you're asking about.

You're not a Christian? Who cares? Neither am I. But I would not make fun of the tenets of someone's religious belief. That's incredibly rude.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

9. Should dumb beliefs not be mocked?

Indigo children?

Vaccines causing autism?

Glenn Beck?

Xenu?

[MineralMan]

13. Again...what's your point?

Oh, well...another thread waiting to be locked today.

Don't make fun of people's religious beliefs. It isn't progressive to do that...just moronic.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

16. You've dodged the question.

Why is that?

[MineralMan]

21. No, I have not.

If someone sincerely believes in some supernatural entity, I will not go out of my way to disabuse them of their belief. To do so is rude.

All but the Xenu one on your list has nothing to do with religion.

Go bother someone else, please.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

26. I believe that stupid ideas should be mocked.

Why are you disrespecting my beliefs?

[MineralMan]

34. I'm not, and they're not beliefs.

You're playing word games, and you are way outclassed here. I'm done with your moronic posings.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

46. Outclassed?

You've dodged my questions, tried to stifle discussions, and resort to name calling.

And you think you've outclassed me?

That's rich.

[JuniperLea]

57. Funny how people will stoop to personal attacks...

When the question is just too deep for their shallow little minds.

:)

I get what you're saying. My beliefs and feelings and everything else that are my own intellectual property are valid, as are yours. I think it's really laughable that people don't get that. Defending a belief is sort of like waging war on an ideology. The War on Terrorism... The War on Christians... The War on Christmas/Easter/Passover/gold pages that can only be read while hidden away from others in a hat. Come on.

If Indigo Children, Witchcraft, Paganism, Druidism, belief in ghosts, UFO's, misc. CT's, etc., are fair play, why not everything else?

[shadowknows69]

71. You just summed up my query a lot better than I did. Thank you.

[JuniperLea]

80. My pleasure

How many times have you seen DUers raked over the coals because of what they believe? Be it 9/11 was an inside job, or UFO's, or whatever? Seems a lot of people are horribly hypocritical on this issue. Even the DU administrators have deemed it appropriate... there's a "dungeon" for the public floggings.

No one can say their beliefs or their feelings are any more valid than the next guy's. In fact, that kind of thinking is one of the major causes of war.

[shadowknows69]

83. It is why I am admittedly combative toward religion.

How are one set of fantastical beliefs more valid than any other? I do however think that if you say you believe something you should believe in it strongly. To the death strongly, although that's a benchmark I don't even know if I have the courage to reach.

[JuniperLea]

87. This happens to me all the time... you reminded me of a song...

The Supersuckers... Creepy Jackalope Eye

An elaborate tale
So convincingly real
Things can seem so amazing
'Til you get up close
And see they're no big deal
Like the stars in the sky
Or the one on the stage
Just a big ball of gas
And a regular guy
Fresh out of minimum wage

In a jackalope space
On a jackalope high
I'm staring you down
Creepy jackalope eye

Many things in this life
Are not what they appear
Yeah I look like a hare
But if you stop and you stare
I'm related to a deer

I got a jackalope face
I'm a jackalope guy
And I'm staring you down
Creepy jackalope eye

Is it so hard to imagine
Is it so hard to believe
Something so outrageous
Something so far fetched
Well how 'bout Adam and Eve?

I know you gotta have faith
I know the need to hope
But the truth is always in place
It's right in front of my face
The mighty jackalope
(Yeah)

In a jackalope space
On a jackalope high
I'm staring you down
Creepy jackalope
And I'm staring down
Creepy jackalope
And I'm staring you down
Creepy jackalope eye
Freaky jackalope eye
Creepy jackalope eye
Creepy jackalope eye

[shadowknows69]

89. Like it

[JuniperLea]

92. This part is particularly relevent to the conversation...

Is it so hard to imagine
Is it so hard to believe
Something so outrageous
Something so far fetched
Well how 'bout Adam and Eve?



The Supersuckers are an awesome band as well.

[skepticscott]

148. Uh, well actually they can

If someone "believes" that the earth was created by an invisible sky daddy 6000 years ago, exactly as we see it now, and that all of the evidence to the contrary is just a deception by daddy to test their faith, is that as valid as what anyone else thinks? If parents "believe" that their kids are possessed by the devil and need to be killed to save their immortal souls, is that as valid as anything else?

[trotsky]

75. In other words...

"One man's theology is another man's belly laugh." -- Robert A. Heinlein

[JuniperLea]

81. Touche!

:cheers:

[ZombieHorde]

150. "All but the Xenu one on your list has nothing to do with religion."

Do you believe religious beliefs should be treated differently than other beliefs? If so, why?

[Sebastian Doyle]

37. Hey, what exactly do you have against the Indigo Girls??

Who, by the way, did a killer version of "Jesus Christ Superstar" a few years ago (to keep this thread on topic)

[shadowknows69]

50. Did they really? I'd love to see that. I got to see them live opening for Neil Young once

Great show.

[shadowknows69]

11. Maybe I'm asking people to examine their own beliefs

from other angles than what comes from the pulpit.

[MineralMan]

18. How is that your business? Why do you wish to do so?

You don't believe? Who cares? Me, neither. Leave people alone with their beliefs. It is behavior that is the issue, not belief.

[shadowknows69]

24. I care because religion has been a force for some of the worse atrocities ever committed by man.

Little concerns like that. I think it is something the entire race of humanity should explore deeper.

[zipplewrath]

29. I'm confused

Are you asking about faith, spirituality, or religion?

[MineralMan]

41. And you believe that Christian DUers are part of that?

Your adolescent posturing is unbecoming.

[Why Syzygy]

137. Where have you been, dude?

Please stick around. Your balanced approach is welcome! :patriot:

[TreasonousBastard]

118. I'm sorry, but you're dead wrong about that...

and it is one of the more magnificently ignorant statements commonly made about religion.

Religion has been involved in atrocity, and is even today involved, but rarely has it ever been the sole force behind the atrocities, or even a major one. More often it has been the popular excuse for warfare, imperialism, theft, buggery, or all sorts of other particularly revolting things, but even there it pales next to the decidedly irreligious killing of the Khans, the Roman Empire, the Baylonians, Assyians, Persians, Stalin's purges, Mao's Cultural Revolution, Viking onslaughts, Queen Maeve, the European colonizations, or the theft of land and murder of Native Americans.

And it had absolutely nothing to do with any war or carnage the United States has ever been involved in.

[gratuitous]

22. Why do you think people don't examine their beliefs?

Or if they come to a different conclusion than you did, that you're somehow entitled to a capsule response on an anonymous message board, which you will then "not mean to disrespect" while posting the most disrespectful nonsense?

Thanks for the invitation, but I prefer a little more integrity in my life, and I think a lot of other people do, too. But your touching concern is duly noted.

[zipplewrath]

23. To what end?

To make a point? To re-enforce your own choices/conclusions? To enhance your own understanding of spirituality? To try to change their minds? To start and argument?

[shadowknows69]

39. To think and examine the origins of their religion

The real historical origins, not what the Bible says, although, granted, there is much verifiable history in it. What isn't verifiable in any way except "belief" is the existence of Jesus Christ and his divinity or lack thereof. I think people who say they believe in something should really know if they do, or if they say they do out of habit/upbringing etc.

[MineralMan]

45. For the last time,

what does it matter to you? Teach yourself. Nothing wrong with that. Religious belief is just that. You don't have to agree with any of them. I don't. But baiting people is poor practice.

Go read something. Leave people alone when it comes to their religious beliefs unless they are doing something wrong. I can't see anyone here doing that.

This thread will shortly be locked.

[JuniperLea]

115. Almost four hours later...

And it's not locked.

And it shouldn't be, imho.

There is nothing different between bashing a religion or bashing any other idea that cannot be verified... so if you ever bash someone for believing that 9/11 was an inside job, you can expect to get linked back to your post here.

[Why Syzygy]

141. It won't be locked.

THIS is what the R/T forum IS.

[JerseygirlCT]

139. I think that you're making a couple of assumptions here:

first that you are somehow qualified to ask people to re-examine their beliefs - this implies some sort of superiority on your part. And second, that people are interested in doing so, or conversely, don't already do so often.

[gcomeau]

44. Please tell me you didn't really just ask that question...

... on a discussion forum dedicated to political advocacy where we have discussions about the real world consequences to us all of people's various dumbass beliefs about ten thousand times a day.

The question is, how in the world could you possible NOT care? As far as religios beliefs in particular are concerned... are you familiar with the abortion debate? Creationism in public schools? Etc...

Beliefs MATTER.

[MineralMan]

47. So they do. How many Christian DUers do you suppose

are doing the things you're talking about. And yet...you're after all Christians, not just the ones who are behaving badly. It is not belief, but action that is worthy of criticism.

[Goblinmonger]

99. There are Christian DUers

that would rather I and other atheists just shut up. There are Christian DUers that would like atheists out of the party. Atheists are the most disliked minority in the US and this is because of religion (primarily Christianity) and you can't tell me that it is just because of all the non-DU Christians. If none of those things were true, and our government was truly secular, I would agree with you and wouldn't care what people believe. Since that isn't the case, it does matter to me.

[KoKo]

62. Agree... I'm surprised to see Shadow post something like this...

:shrug:

[shadowknows69]

84. I am sorry if I shattered your image of me KoKo

Because I highly respect you as a DUer. Maybe I wasn't clear. Please tell me what you took issue with?

[KoKo]

134. The OP...it wasn't you...that I've seen

It seemed snarky and uncaring about some DU'ers who might be Christians who aren't on the "RIGHT/FUNDIES" side...but do believe in Jesus's teachings that were against TORTURE (Figure in "myth as you would believe")...who suffered on a cross (like those detainees hung by wrists defacating on themselves" and against USURY (Wall Street Money Changers)...etc...etc.

It was a hurtful post to many of us..probably some who can't even post on DU anymore, because they feel their beliefs are challenged.

I wondered if you post had attacked Judaism or Wiccans or Muslims if folks would have just thought it was "really cool."

I've read your posts ...recommended so many and never saw this dark, snarky, cynical side to you to trash what others here might believe or not believe.

That's what I saw...I'm being honest in my reaction whether you agree or not...it did seem OTT..about what peoples beliefs should be or not be...and that YOU were a JUDGE.

Just saying......

[shadowknows69]

142. I appreciate your response

And I have been in some dark places lately so that may have come through. Always been pretty cynical, particularly about religion, so I'm not sure how you missed that in the past. Honestly I really just wanted to see who accepts the basic tenent of the Passion as real or who sees it as simply symbolic. Why ask? Because it's Good Friday. Sometimes I just write and whatever comes; comes. Sorry if I offended you. Hope this won't put me on your ignore list.
-S

[hlthe2b]

6. I don't like to see other's religious beliefs ridiculed...

no matter what I might believe personally... "If it hurts or offends others, it offends and hurts me" (that's how I was raised, sorry)

[MineralMan]

10. Yup. Making jest of someone's beliefs is just plain old-fashioned

rude. Lots of that going around here today.

[JuniperLea]

72. I best never see you insult or mock a DUer...

Because they believe in UFO's, ghosts, or that 9/11 was an inside job. Their beliefs and feelings are every bit as valid as anyone else's.

[gcomeau]

51. I'm always mystified...

...why religious beliefs warrant special status as being beyond ridicule and criticism.

I understand social pressures that would result in it happening, but I cannot for the life of me come up with any rational justification for it that would cause anyone who seriously thought about the issue to maintain that those specific beliefs deserve their special immunity to being torn apart if they make no sense.

[hlthe2b]

67. the same "special status" applies to non-relious issues...

for me, at least. I just can't see going out of my way to ridicule someone's core beliefs UNLESS they are overtly harming someone else (i.e., I would call someone on their bigoted, misogynist or racist comments/beliefs)....

I likewise would not necessarily correct someone's beliefs (misunderstanding) or a medical issue, if that misunderstanding was integral to their acceptance of a painful family death as another example.

Basic civility, IMO That doesn't mean I wouldn't debate with them, but that is quite different than calling them out for ridicule.

[Goblinmonger]

100. If someone is racist

and is in no position to cause any harm to anyone else, what business is it of yours. Can't they have those beliefs? Why can't someone believe that women are inferior to men? Why does a belief in a god warrant your protection, but not the beliefs you list in your post?

[hlthe2b]

120. It is my business if they spew that in my presence.

[Goblinmonger]

145. So when someone talks about their beliefs

on a public forum, it would be fine to question them on it, yes?

[hlthe2b]

153. I never suggested polite discussion to be out of line...

But it isn't accusatory. It doesn't start with "you know all that you believe is bunk, mere fairy tales, don't you?" That, unfortunately is how some of us approach the issue. I'm a realist, a pragmatist and I think of most spiritual things more as do the Budhists, or pantheists. But, I was raised Christian and I have lived long enough to know that in all stories, there is usually some grain of truth. I also know that our secular history has become just as bastardized by "spin" and "half-truths," that it too, must be looked at with some skepticism and in the wider context.... For those aspects of faith, one man (woman's) "TRUTH" is another's mere metaphor... And, within the myriad of stories of Christ, there is a lot of good in the message, whether you take it as absolute truth, or mere metaphor.

[JerseygirlCT]

124. Thank you for that. Very well said. nt

[JuniperLea]

70. I think this is the point... how many times have you seen DUers raked over the coals...

Because they believed in ghosts, UFO's, CT's, etc.? Why is it ok to mock (more than mock, really) those beliefs, but it's not ok to mock religious beliefs? Why is one sacred and not the other?

I know people who believe in God, that he is really an alien being who is depicted in thousands of petroglyph's around the world. Their stories sound as valid to me as a bearded cloud being who sent his kid to be killed and rise again... or that Adam and Eve story, which is yet another alien story to some... or that deal with the gold pages of a book that could only be read by some guy hiding them in his hat. How is one story any more likely than the next?

[Goblinmonger]

101. Or because the are Mormon or Scientologist

or Right Wing Fundamentalists?

I wish these people would publish a list so I know who to mock.

[JuniperLea]

106. I say it's only fair...

To mock all, or none.

[Goblinmonger]

111. I'm with you on this.

It's just odd seeing the same people complaining about Christian bashing going all out on Mormons, Scientologist, RW Fundies, etc.

[JuniperLea]

112. Not to mention "The Dungeon"

Where anyone's beliefs are fair game if it happens to be about 9/11, or UFO's, or anything else that cannot be proven any more than a religion.

Go figure.

[Blue_In_AK]

8. I was raised as a Christian - moderate variety -

but I could never really accept the literal truth of that story, either. As an adult, I've come to believe that Jesus was a real person, a great teacher, who espoused truths that we'd all do well to live by (much like the founders of the other great religions), but the Easter story I think is an allegory for the new life that arises in the spring after the cold, dead winter -- a miracle in its own right that (as an Alaskan especially) I'm extremely grateful for every year.

[shadowknows69]

20. Thank you for actually answering my question

It seems everyone else is afraid to have any examination of their faith. Why shouldn't the validity of a particular religion be examined? If I just went into a mall today and started ranting about how I just saw a guy rise from the dead or heal the blind, I'd be locked up in a mental ward.

[MineralMan]

31. You didn't ask about examination in your OP.

You asked why anyone would be offended by having their religion made fun of.

Can you visualize the difference?

You're just playing the same game the other people who have chosen this week to post inane comments about Christianity and Judaism. Why? What's it to you?

Believe or disbelieve as you choose. Leave others to do the same. How hard is that?

Don't be a moron.

[shadowknows69]

63. It was implied when I asked if people really believe

That usually requires some examination no?

[Blue_In_AK]

42. You're welcome, Shadow

I've examined my faith (or lack of) a lot over the years. At this point, I consider myself to be a somewhat spiritual person in that I certainly respect the moral underpinnings of the major religions, but as for the specific legends, especially the more fantastical ones, I believe those are human constructs.

[Terran]

52. What you don't understand is that "validity" is not a valid concept

when discussing peoples' faith. It doesn't matter whether Jesus died and was ressurrected or not, because after all this time the story has acquired such meaning that that is all that's important. This is how religion, all religions, work. It's only very ignorant people, on both sides of the religious divide, who feel the need to insist on the historicity or non-historicity of religious stories.

[roguevalley]

94. I agree with Blue_in_alaska. I think examining your views is necessary

to be happy. Taking things lock stock and barrel is something I can't do.

[CreekDog]

12. I believe in it

But I don't have proof of it.

I don't see how Jesus could be a Buddhist and say "I am the way the truth and the life" and "nobody comes to the father but by me" (of course said in a different language).

Nor would he have said,
"this is the cup of my blood,
the blood of the new and everlasting covenant.
It will be shed for you and for many
so that sins may be forgiven.
Do this in memory of me."

Otherwise, that would make him out to be a bad Buddhist and a dishonest one to boot.

[FreeState]

43. Why could a Buddhist not believe those things?

I don't see how Jesus could be a Buddhist and say "I am the way the truth and the life" and "nobody comes to the father but by me" (of course said in a different language).

Why not? Buddhist dont worship a god or believe Buddha was a god. There is no creator or God in Buddhism - its also not against the Tenants of Buddhism to believe in a creator god - its just not part of the faith.

Nor would he have said, "this is the cup of my blood, the blood of the new and everlasting covenant. It will be shed for you and for many so that sins may be forgiven. Do this in memory of me."

Otherwise, that would make him out to be a bad Buddhist and a dishonest one to boot.

Same question as above - how so?

Happy Easter by the way! Oh and its also Therivandin Buddhist New Years on Easter this year too:) Coincidence? j.k:P

[CreekDog]

49. because, if they don't believe in God or gods, then why would a good Buddhist claim to be one?

that's how i address both points.

of course if you subscribe to the "i don't believe in the bible, except to say that it has secret meaning which plainly contradicts its stated meaning" :eyes: then you could potentially make room for a totally different belief.

Happy Easter to you also. :hi:

[shadowknows69]

53. Maybe he didn't say it?

No tape recorders in early A.D.

[Seeking Serenity]

14. At least one.

Me.

And I'll thank you not to disparage my beliefs any more than you would want your profoundly held beliefs disparaged.

"Do to others as you would want others to do to you," is not just a Christian credo. It is a policy that, I believe, all people who call themselves "progressives" should live by.

[tammywammy]

19. Agreed! n/t

[shadowknows69]

55. I do hold to that belief and thank you for answering.

And I have no problem with my beliefs being disparaged or examined. There is a difference between questioning and disparaging that gets blurred. I just wanted to get a feel how many DU Christians actually believe the more supernatural aspects of your religion. And if not, what does that do to the whole structure of your faith?

[Seeking Serenity]

69. Discussed, yes. Examined? OK

Disparaged, as in "Who else but a raving loon who should be locked away in an asylum could believe ___," no.

And that goes for Jews, Muslims, pagans, atheists, johnny-come-lately.

Yes, I believe in the "supernatural" aspects of my religion. I do believe that Christ was put to death and resurrected. I do believe that he was at once fully human and fully God; that he raised Jairus' daughter and Lazarus.

Do I have proof (other than the Gospels)? None that would satisfy anyone here. But I don't have to prove to anyone the basis for my belief.

You don't have a problem with your beliefs being disparaged? Bully for you. But the credo is NOT, "Go ahead and do to others just so long as you don't mind it being done to you."

[shadowknows69]

76. That was my point about the line between disparaging and questioning

I put it badly. I applaud you on your faith and your bravery in testifying it here. I believe in many things that are deemed "nut house" territory, it does bother me sometimes that I, and others of the "tin foil" sect, get laughed out of the house for our beliefs but these amazing happenings told in an ancient book are supposed to be sacrosanct and immediately acceptable.

[H2O Man]

17. Well, among other things,

religously/spiritually speaking, I'm a christian. And I am comfortable in the passion story. Earlier today, I was reading from a good book on Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr., and his experiences in facing death in the final weeks of his life. Similarly, when he told the people around him that he knew he was going to die, his closest friends didn't understand what he was saying, and they told him it wasn't going to happen. Looking back, they are all struck at how lonely he was.

The idea of the resurrection is not intended as literal. People either understand that, or they don't. Some people understood then, as some do now, and others were rather concrete in their thinking.

Telling a story of a hero's journey, to borrow Campbell's phrase, generally follows the pattern of previous heroes' journeys. That's a good thing.

Jesus was a Jew. He was what is known in sociology as a reformation prophet. There are two sub-divisions within this group: those who attempt to close their circle; and those who attempt to expand it. Those who teach an expansive view often meet violent deaths. That's part of human history.

[H2O Man]

28. PS:

I think that all people are divine.

[shadowknows69]

56. Ditto that H2O man. IMO opinion all the "God" we need is within ourselves.

[JuniperLea]

61. Well said...

The idea that everything in the Bible should be taken literally is counterproductive to it's intended purpose, imho. Many cultures and religions have incredibly valid and useful parables and other stories, but that's not to say they are all literal depictions of historic events.

I have a Christian Missionary cousin who is fluent in Hebrew and many of the ancient dialects. The things she and her husband are learning from ancient texts is astounding. They now celebrate nearly all of the Jewish holy days, some of which aren't even recognizable to their Jewish friends, and they are causing quite a stir among their home/supporting churches. They live in Israel. And in interesting times.

Me, I was raised in the same church as my cousin, and the hypocrisy there left me agnostic. I have this feeling that eventually, my cousin and I will meet in the idealogical middle someday.

[shadowknows69]

65. I recieved a great book on the Kaballah for Winter Solstice

Haven't cracked it yet but I'm eager to dig in now that we're moved and settled.

[JuniperLea]

86. I've been dying to dig into that area...

And into Sufism... I'm a huge Rumi fan.

[H2O Man]

79. Many of the most

important lessons that Jesus taught were in the form of parables. No coincidence, there. It is a great teaching tool, and the fact that Jesus used it puts him right in line with others in his day.

History is filled with numerous examples of teachers who, coming from the oppressed classes, using this teaching method, for a couple of reasons. First, it works on two levels: with those who grasp it, as well as simpler people who would simply reject the higher level of the lesson otherwise; and second, for safety reasons. It can be dangerous to speak outright.

Some interesting examples include Aesop, the Egyptian slave in ancient Greece, and Malcolm X in more modern times.

[shadowknows69]

88. Being at least a mediocre student of the history of modern pagan religions

I understand that concept fully. Life or death is usually the stakes and as we see in Jesus' story, it was his words, and the power structures they threatened, that essentially caused his death. Politically speaking without going into the whole divine destiny thing. That aside; it makes it all the more horrifying that such violence through the ages has been perpetrated in his name whether overtly or by implication.

[JuniperLea]

114. "Devine intervention... always my intention..."

"So I'll take my time."

Sorry, you reminded me of yet another song.

If money could be made tying songs to other things, I'd be filthy rich;)

[JuniperLea]

90. Exactly...

It's much easier to remember a good story, and that will lead to the message.

[JerseygirlCT]

125. I've never understood really the push to read the bible literally

To me, it flattens it, takes away all the color and depth.

It's more than a story, it's more than some history, it's rich in allegory and parable and symbolism. And that's why it has endured - because people are always finding "truth" there, even without finding "fact".

[Johonny]

25. Not that it's worth the bother but

Since he was from a Jewish city, spent most of his time talking about Jewish law and pretty much fits in with the general context of the Jewish religion of his day I believe nearly any historian worth being a historian is pretty comfortable that Jesus was actually Jewish.

Was he divine? Clearly this issue dominated the early first few hundred years of the Church and it's not clear the actual eventual answer makes any sense to me at all. Clearly to many early Christians and some modern ones his actual divinity had(s) nothing to do with Christianity!

[Goblinmonger]

102. I think any historian worth being a historian

would say that the evidence of there actually being a Jesus is pretty sketchy at best.

[theoldman]

27. Most Jews I know enjoy the stories in the Old Testament.

They are religious but they are not ignorant and know the difference between a story and a fact. We Christians need to be educated and learn that a lot of the stories in the New Testament are just that, stories.

[jody]

32. You say "Not trying to disrespect" but do that by saying "Jesus was probably actually Ra, or

a well-traveled Buddisht."

[shadowknows69]

59. I put a wink smiley on that I had originally meant to place

But there are compelling arguments that Jesus was based on other ancient myths.

[chaplainM]

73. When acolytes sacrifice food to Ra,

do they chant, "Eat it, Ra?"

[shadowknows69]

78. Bwah!

But now you've gone and pissed off any Sun God worshipers we might have here.

[Terran]

33. Neither a Christian nor a theologian here, but...

I believe the point is not to believe in the literal truth of the event (as with any religion), but to understand the meaning of the 'story'. The self-sacrifice and rebirth of Jesus is the central mystery of Christianity...it's probably the only part of it that I'm not willing to see made fun of.

I think Easter is supposed to be about connecting viscerally and profoundly to the idea that God loves the world, and loves humanity. And I'm not even saying *that* statement is literally true in a way any of us can understand intellectually, but it's the central belief of Christianity.

This is a bit disorganized, maybe, but then, you have asked a complicated question. :toast:

[rug]

35. I believe it and don't mind clever snark about it. Just haven't seen any.

[MineralMan]

38. +1

[Gormy Cuss]

40. Most self-described Christians take this as a tenet of faith.

So the answer is, nearly all of them.

[LanternWaste]

54. I believe the story

I believe the story. I don't really get upset at people ridiculing it anymore than than a pothead would get upset at someone ridiculing pot. The ridicule is a non-issue to me... :shrug:

However, all other things being equal, I do tend to respect the beliefs of other people, other cultures, and other religions... regardless of whether I'm in agreement with them or not. It's just not who I am to make fun of something so deeply held by other people; I think it would be more a reflection on my own lack of class and dignity than it would be an actual reflection of the topic I'm ridiculing. But I understand that many people do not feel that way.



"Where is the outrage at the theft of older belief system's significant times of year to craft Christian Holidays around?"

Acculturation has always been common when cultures bisect over time-- we begin adapting our own mores, traditions, literature, religion, even recipes to those of the second culture, regardless of which one is the conqueror and which one is the vanquished. I can't really see any reason for anyone to be outraged at that...

Edited: clarity

[shadowknows69]

60. Being bathed in "Christmas Cheer" from November 1st on

Make me a little miffed about it.

[LanternWaste]

105. ignore the secular aspects of religious holidays.

I tend to do my best to ignore the secular aspects of religious holidays, and more often than not, it works.

Either way, I try not to allow myself to get frustrated by the small things in life as there's enough big things out there for me.

[Beer Snob-50]

58. I am a Catholic

who understands and teaches that much of what we read in teh Bible is a story. I could care less if others make fun of my belief system although I feel that as an intelligent group, we can learn to respect others beliefs.


It was mentioned how bad things have been done in the name of religion, yes it has. However what we must remember is that it is not the religion so much as it is mans perverting of that religion that makes these things happen

[acmavm]

64. All Gods are one God. He (I prefer She) is seen differently by others, or

not at all. I don't screw with anyone and what they believe. Unless it's something like rubbing peanut butter and jelly all over themselves and parading around naked at high noon on Saturday on 72nd and Dodge Steets, I don't fucking care what anyone does.

Oh yeah, and No BLOOD SACRIFICES!

[EastTennesseeDem]

74. Shouldn't an online community of liberals and progressives

celebrate its diversity? Shouldn't it be something to be proud of?

[shadowknows69]

82. Sure, and I do.

But also as progressives and liberals, we should examine the problems of the human condition and what causes them and I'm sorry, but religion, I should say it's abuse, has caused a lot of misery. This will piss people off but I think the two best things that could happen to us as a species would be the proof of existence of extraterrestrial intelligent life and the disproof of the Judeo-Christian-Islamic mythos. Humanity's natural tendency seems to be toward self-delusion alot and I can't help but wonder if things would be better if certain veils were dramatically lifted from our eyes.

[LanternWaste]

107. I would hazard that greed and national borders have caused the vast majority

I would hazard that greed, and national borders are the two concepts which have caused the vast majority of human suffering, both in the here and now, and throughout our history, with things like religion, philosophy, politics, etc. simply used as convenient justifications to give the people a palatable causus-belli.

[JerseygirlCT]

127. One would think

And looking at your name, are you ok? Sounds like some nasty storms there today!

[EastTennesseeDem]

129. Hehe

It was piss-pouring just a little while ago, with all the accouterments of a severe thunderstorm. Then there was a lapse, at which point my friend and I thought we would walk down to Panera. That was a baa-a-a-a-ad idea. We got completely soaked. We're all good though; appreciate the concern.

[JerseygirlCT]

135. Glad to hear it!

Wet is ok; hit by a tornado, not so much!

[struggle4progress]

77. "People demand miraculous signs and wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified:

a stumbling block and foolishness" 1 Corinthians 1

"It is a wicked generation that demands a sign, and no sign will be given to it but that of Jonah" Matthew 16

[shadowknows69]

91. The Jonah story is a little hard to swallow too

Yes, pun intended.

[struggle4progress]

96. You can read the Jonah story however you like: it seems to me to be a theological

meditation wrapped in a Sindbad the Sailor fable. Jonah is a mirror image of Cassandra, whose prophecies came true because no one listened to her: Jonah's prophecy is heeded and therefore does not come true. The psychology is beautiful -- Jonah never wants to become a prophet but becomes one anyway and then is furious because his prophecy does not come true; in the end, he is bitter because a short-lived vine that briefly shaded him dies, while a great city survives after he predicted its destruction

This is a template that fits a number of situations. Consider, for example, the problem of trying to prevent our environmentally destructive economic practices from destroying the entire planet. There are always plenty of people who claim the warnings are hysterical: if one succeeded in bypassing them and getting most of the world to change enough to avert disaster, the doubters would still be there claiming the warnings had been hysterical. Thus, the would-be prophet can either be proven correct by a terrible disaster or can be proven incorrect when the disaster fails to materialize because the warnings were heeded. Jonah's bitterness is not only inexcusable, it's completely natural and understandable

[Torn_Scorned_Ignored]

85. At 12:11 today you said this

I'm as big a religious cynic as anyone but here's my only comment on Easter I'll make.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5427824&mesg_id=5427963


Now you've started a thread on basically what you said was going to be your only comment.

Practice whatever belief you want. Allow those of us who are believers to do the same, without persecution.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

93. persecution?

:nopity:

[shadowknows69]

95. How do my words, in a country where free speech is allowed, persecute you?

I asked how many people really believe what is essentially the lynchpin of the entire religion. And if they really didn't how do they reconcile that within themselves?

[Goblinmonger]

103. If this is persecution to you

you need to spend time meditating on those that actually are persecuted this weekend.

[Torn_Scorned_Ignored]

108. Let's say this persecution

I spoke of meant the lack of tolerance here on DU for people who are believers.

I hope that clears up any misconception.

As for spending time meditating this weekend on those who are "actually persecuted", I will be spending time this weekend hoping someone gives a shit somewhere about the horrific and degrading effects of my having been subjected to Constitutional Violations and Torture since 1998.

Now if you want details, you goddamn well better be a lawyer.

Go preach to someone who isn't afraid to call you an asshole.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=203&topic_id=484964

9 years

In 1998 my father died. October 14th. He had been very ill for a long time and I didn't speak to him for the last 10 years he was alive. I hated him. I didn't feel anything like loss. I felt as though a very bad part of my life had ended with justice. I was abused. No need to go into that.

This was also the time when my Constitutional Rights began to be violated. In particular, the 4th Amendment.

US Constitution Amendment 4

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
http://www.findlaw.com/casecode/constitution /

The method of this violation and the consequences to me have been devastating. In the last 9 yrs I have lost all meaningful relationships.
I am totally isolated.
My health has declined,
I'm living way below the poverty level and
I haven't been OUT of this tiny apartment for more than necessities (grocery store, carry out) since the year 2000,
mostly, if not all due to loss of future income,
loss of meaningful relationships
and all friendships,
and loss of family ties.
ALL the result of the devastating effects of having my Constitutional Rights removed.

On 9/11, In my life far away from New York City or Washington, DC everything changed.

I lost All Liberty.

The insidiousness of the government Not Honoring your birthright and looking the other way when citizens are violated in the most unlawful, personal ways makes me question the Flag.

I've lost my Country. The Constitution doesn't work in my life, it doesn't apply. My fathers Great-Grandparents came to the shores of America. My mothers family came from Canada many moons ago. I am thoroughly an American citizen 284 ** ****.
I live in fear. I am in a situation that I cannot explain. Not to you, not to a lawyer, not to another person. Because OF the perfect execution and horrific effects of the peeling away of one freedom, one liberty at a time. You cannot explain, the cumulative effect becomes overwhelming. I've tried.
You have questions. I can't answer them. What has been done to me, and the terror over the past several years I've felt as a result is mind boggling.

I had friends, family relationships, dreams, hopes, a future.
I'm a real person whose Constitutional Rights have been violated. I've lost my rights. I'm not some illusionary citizen who got disappeared or placed in some Halliburton built prison camp. I am not psychotic or in need of some pharmaceutical to control synapses.

I have experienced an intrusive assault on my life,
US Constitution Amendment 4
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures.

Not having this is a fear you can taste. Having your very person violated. Listening devices, mail stolen, personal property disappearing from your home - some shadowy figure with a key, your computer hijacked and monitored and messed with.

Why should you care? This is your country. It's our Constitution.

The Constitution (Article 2, Section 1) provides that before assuming office the President must take the following oath or affirmation: “I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the office of President of the United States, and will, to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.”

I, (Senator - Congressman/woman), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter: So help me God.

AND

I've requested help from members of both Houses. 9 years and Nothing more than a "get a lawyer" from my Congresswoman, Marcy Kaptur 9th District Ohio.

[Name removed]

110. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

116. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

123. Why are you persecuting me?

[Torn_Scorned_Ignored]

132. Because I don't like

your Avatar.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

136. So you persecute me because of my religious beliefs...

But you get upset when I point out that your beliefs are equally silly?

Doesn't that make you a hypocrite?

[Name removed]

143. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

144. Opinions may differ.

You are, after all, the guy who posts weird nonsense shit about the 4th amendment.

[rug]

117. Go play your little game where someone is not bleeding.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

122. Persecution, and now bleeding?

huh?

[rug]

126. Yes, bleeding, and not because of religion.

Isn't there a food pantry in a church nearby that you can go to and mock the people going in?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

130. Not as far as I know.

Isn't there some protest somewhere about godless people persecuting you and shoving things down your throat that you can attend?

[rug]

131. Do you think this is about God or acting like an asshole when someone is clearly in pain?

Go ahead, spin it.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

133. When someone is clearly in pain? Who's in pain?

Are you alledging TSI is actually suffering from some sort of mental illness?

Because not being Bill Frist, I personally don't diagnose that sort of thing via telepathy, and assume that if somebody wants to argue over the internet, they should act like grown ups and deal with people who disagree with them.

[rug]

138. Do you think pain is mental illness? Nice try.

Now try to act like a grown up. Or a mediocre human being.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

140. I'm sorry, I thought you meant "pain" and "bleeding" were metaphoricallu.

If whatshisname is actually in real pain and actually bleeding, he should probably see a doctor.

And not the faith healing type.

[Goblinmonger]

113. Lack of tolerance does not equal persecution

I have done nothing to take away your rights by not being tolerant of your beliefs here on DU (and I don't agree I have not been tolerant, but that is another discussion).

[Occam Bandage]

146. So you're having your mail stolen by the Feds because you're a Christian?

You don't seem balanced.

[Critters2]

97. I'm a Girardian Christian. I believe the purpose of the Passion

was to teach empathy for all victims, and the danger that arises when individuals allow themselves to become a crowd, when persons cease to stand up for powerless victims, as Jesus was in this instance. I struggle with the idea of a physical resurrection, but I know something happened which caused the disciples to understand that the violence of Good Friday was not salvific, nor pleasing to God. The overcoming of death by life, cruelty by mercy, violence by peace, hatred by love was made clear with the Resurrection. The Church taught these things pretty well, until Constantine tied the Church to the culture, and again began to teach that violence is a solution to the difficulties of life.

I think that tied is turning again. I hope. And I hope that the Passion Story teaches me empathy for victims--glbt people stripped of their civil rights, the poor beaten down by Capitalism, religious minorities suffering under those of other faiths, all victims of discrimination and violence.

[JerseygirlCT]

128. That's lovely, Critters

Really. Very beautiful way to describe it, and thoughtful. Thank you.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

152. And if you've read Karen Armstrong's History of God

you know that throughout history, religious texts have been understood on many levels. Allegorical interpretation is nothing new.

[damntexdem]

104. I'm an agnostic, but will give one answer to the "why be upset" question.

I would be upset because it denigrates the beliefs of others who do strongly believe in the story.

It's one thing to say that one doesn't believe and to give reasons. It's quite another to make fun.

[JuniperLea]

109. Which is why I feel, no I believe

That there should be no raking of DUers over coals on ANY issue... some believe that 9/11 was an inside job... some believe there was a conspiracy to assassinate JFK, RFK, and MLK... and not just because their last names begin with K. How are their unprovable beliefs any more or less valid than belief in a benevolent bearded cloud being?

[JerseygirlCT]

119. I think the passion, and most especially, the resurrection,

is quite possibly understood in a variety of ways.

Some absolutely do believe in the story as it happened. They believe in a physical death, and a very physical resurrection.

I think my personal understanding is a bit less cut and dried. I think in more symbolic terms, and as Jesus is God with us, I don't necessarily think that the meaning of the resurrection is quite so literal. I do think that Jesus' life in this last week is quite meaningful, whether one regards it as historical or as more metaphorical. I definitely feel for the very human and somewhat torn Jesus through this - but one still dedicated to his calling.

I'm not one who interprets the resurrection though in terms of atonement or sacrifice for our sins. To me, it's more a loving example sent to humans in the form that would touch them most deeply, and reach to their greatest needs and fears: the fear of death, the message that love endures and over it death has no power, and most especially the message that God's love is ever-enduring and therefore, triumphant.

It's not an easy subject, but of course, this is the central event of Christianity. From this comes all else.

Do I mind if people tease about it? Not really. That doesn't impact my own thoughts or understanding, or my own private marking of these events. To be really blunt, someone who feels the need to make fun of it isn't likely someone whose opinions I'm going to be taking on the subject, you know?

[Occam Bandage]

147. Why would anyone be angry at holidays spreading across cultures?

I'm not angry that the Japanese celebrate Valentine's day.

[rrneck]

149. We must all balance

our beliefs against the physical realities of life on the planet. And those realties must be measured against our beliefs. If our beliefs become too divergent, then somewhere reality should kick in and let us know - if we will allow it. Sometimes people attach their beliefs to some group or organization that will create a bubble around them for its own profit. Merely announcing a belief and expecting to avoid all criticism or mockery creates a perfect hiding place for charlatans, crooks and power mongers.

If criticism or even mockery seem to be legitimately directed at an individual's choice of belief organization, then perhaps it is time to reevaluate one's beliefs or at least the organization that supports them.

[kwassa]

151. Whatever happened to fucking manners in the first place?

People talking about the proper way to disrespect each other, and when disrespect is proper.

Wow.

It all comes down to that. If you are on a progressive board, you don't mock your fellow progressives, unless you are out to create division. Go ahead, make fun of the beliefs that are not your beliefs, particularly those that are not germane to the cause that brought you together. That will certainly create an ongoing Democratic majority.

Real smart politics.

[Why Syzygy]

157. KA-POW

Politics are (unfortunately) left at the door of the R/T forum.

[Sanctified]

154. How can you be a Christian and not believe in the Passion?

Seriously, without believing in the death and resurrection there is no point in being a Christian.

[laconicsax]

156. I don't think you're going to get many answers.

It's too bad really.

[Why Syzygy]

158. I've had to mull over what that might imply as well.

It made me realize that I've never had a problem believing in miracles.
One of my most vivid memories during my tween years was hearing the story of Gideon, and the faith that instilled in me.
Nothing is too great.

[rd_kent]

155. If jesus was resurrected...

then where is he? I never got that part. If memeory serves, when the tomb was opened, jesus was gone. I think 1 or two people claimed to have seen him but no one else saw him. Could it actually be a case of grave robbery?

[Common Sense Party]

159. I believe in it. I'm thankful for it. My life is better because of it.

Your mileage may vary, and to each his or her own.

Personally, I am happy it is Easter morning.

On edit:

My life is better than it USED to be...

I did not intend to imply that my life is better than those who don't believe.