minority religions in the State of the Jews-Israel

[scholarsOrAcademics]

With the recent pronouncements concerning stating ones allegiance to the State of the Jews, the question arises for me - what is the status of Christians in Israel? Of course there is probably little animosity toward fundamentalists, until further notice, as Zygmunt Bauman would say. But what about others who call themselves Christian or practice some Christian beliefs? Would, for example, a German Protestant encounter less animosity and discrimination than a German Catholic? Would an Orthodox Ethiopian suffer because of their professed Christianity, or because of their race? These are good Sociological questions, ignoring what is the essence of Christianity and simply restricting the question to those who chose to call themselves Christians, or working in that direction.
Are there any Sociologists lurking in the wings, off-stage, here at DU?

[struggle4progress]

1. You might have better luck posting in I/P, where there are a number of people with

strong opinions one way or the other on the topic of Israel

[azurnoir]

2. Unfortunately the I/P forum

has more stringent rules than the rest of DU and you can not post a thread based on a question there

However the the loyalty pledge was a political ploy used in the recent elections by Avigdor Lieberman and was mainly aimed at whipping up distrust and hostility towards Israeli Arabs most of whom are Muslim, it is not and most likely will not be official Israeli policy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avigdor_Lieberman

[scholarsOrAcademics]

3. simulated loyalty?

interesting, however it does not get into the question of animosity and discrimination that is endemic to the State of the Jews-Israel. Its my understanding that Israel calls itself the State of the Jews, officially. How best to designate Israel? From its start, it was to be a State for Jews, a homeland, refuge for all Jews. I do have some ignorance on this point, and thus the question.

[azurnoir]

4. true enough it can be quite fractured even amomg Jews

as this thread shows

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x272569

as far as I know Israel is commonly called the Jewish State the name has been the cause of much contention on the I/P forum or there are countries that call them selves Islamic Stated so why not a Jewish State

ETA as you can see with post right after mine

[aquart]

5. How about NONE OF YOUR EFFING BUSINESS?

Are you an Israeli?

Are you equally concerned with Sri Lanka? Indonesia? Tibet? France?

My god, the trash that crawls out after midnight in this place.

[ZombieHorde]

6. Why so defensive? nt

[Meshuga]

9. There is an issue with "allegiance" and "loyalty"

Where Jews are historically questioned and attacked as being traitors. There are implicit and sometimes explicit charges that American Jews are not good Americans and the State of Israel is used to support that charge. So any question about loyalty and allegiance will make American Jews very uncomfortable. More so when, historically, such charges meant that Jews were as dead as fried chicken.

And I can see how the charge of "endemic discrimination" implied as being the default position for a Jewish state can generate legitimate annoyance. Especially when there is a strong drive by some to paint the ugliest picture possible in order to support the claim that Israel has no rights to exist as a Jewish state.

[Boojatta]

11. Before Israel was founded, did nobody allege that American Jews were disloyal or bad Americans?

There is an issue with "allegiance" and "loyalty" where Jews were historically questioned and attacked as being traitors. There are implicit and sometimes explicit charges that American Jews are not good Americans and the State of Israel is used to support that charge.(Inexact quote; in other words, Boojatta made a small change to Meshuga's wording)

[struggle4progress]

12. Before Israel was founded, anti-semitism was extremely common in the US. It was,

in fact, so common that in 1939 Jewish refugees from Germany were not allowed into the US after Cuban authorities turned their ship (the St Louis) away at Havana. The passengers returned to Europe; only about half of them survived the war

VOYAGE OF THE ST. LOUIS
http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?ModuleId=10005267

[Meshuga]

13. People certainly did

The stereotypes are old.

I can think of a couple of obvious examples like Henry Ford and Charles Coughlin who questioned the patriotism of American Jews and had no shame when spreading anti-Jewish bigotry.

[scholarsOrAcademics]

15. amazing

gutter thinking.

[Meshuga]

7. Christians have freedom to practice their religion

And have their own houses of worship in Israel. Animosity comes usually when specific Christian groups try to convert Jews to Christianity. And this animosity comes from haredim who are perhaps more aggressive toward non-Orthodox Jewish movements.

The vast majority of Jews in Israel (about 65%) are secular and about 37% are atheists.

I am not sure what specific pronouncement you are talking about and what that would have to do with the status of Christians in Israel.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

10. No just Christians but others are welcome too

Announcing you are Ba'hai is a death sentence in the neighboring islamic countries.

[scholarsOrAcademics]

17. specific prouncement

206508, Unfortunately the I/P forum
Posted by azurnoir on Wed Apr-22-09 09:31 PM

has more stringent rules than the rest of DU and you can not post a thread based on a question there

However the the loyalty pledge was a political ploy used in the recent elections by Avigdor Lieberman and was mainly aimed at whipping up distrust and hostility towards Israeli Arabs most of whom are Muslim, it is not and most likely will not be official Israeli policy

And that was the original question I posed "What that would have to do with the status of Christians in Israel"

[scholarsOrAcademics]

21. 65% secularists - Zionist?

Does this mean 35% are Jews, that is religious as opposed to being secular(65%)? Generally, secular means militant, Zionist. Then anti-Zionist would translate to not being anti-Semitic. I'm wondering if a religious Jew is a minority in a dominate Zionist country, the Jewish State of Israel.

[Meshuga]

22. I do not understand your post in order to properly respond to it

Jewish is a term used to label the people. Judaism is a religion. You don't have to follow Judaism in order to be considered Jewish. You can be observant, mildly observant, not observant at all, atheist, believer, etc. and a combination of observant with not believing. To be a Jew the person needs to be born Jewish or follow the rites if the person wishes to join the Jewish people.

Zionism is a movement that originally supported the reestablishment of a homeland for the Jewish People and that now actively supports the existence of the Jewish State.

Anti-Semitic is a term created by a Jew hater to label his hatred of the Jewish people and it is used to label those who are anti-Jews. Not those who are anti-Judaism. So I don't understand your point about anti-Zionist vs. anti-Semitic.

And I don't understand what you mean by "Generally, secular means militant, Zionist".

Religious Jews being a small minority in a Jewish state does not make it any less of a Jewish state. Judaism encompasses more than its spiritual aspects since it has other very important components that allows secular Jews and atheist Jews to experience their own Jewishness. So I don't understand what you are trying to tell me with your post.

[scholarsOrAcademics]

24. helpful sharpening of terms

Thank you, it sharpens some of what is involved.
I do question your statement "that allows secular Jews and atheist Jews to experience their own Jewishness." And I was not trying to tell you anything; a question is not supposed to imply a position, it is questioning the grounds for an assertion.
To me, it is foolish to claim -ness. Its in the same logical category as "yes, I had the 1915 flu and therefore I do not have to take the latest WHO flu vaccine."

[Meshuga]

26. Perhaps to you it is foolish to claim "-ness" because you don't know what Judaism is about

And I say this not knowing exactly what you mean and truly not understanding the comparison you made.

Grab a basic publication (like a "Judaism for Dummies" book which provides a great overview) and you will see that spirituality is not the only component of Judaism. Jewish peoplehood and Jewish ethics are also very important components that allows Humanistic Jews, for example, to have their own Jewish movement, removing all the spiritual and god stuff from it. These other components allow Atheist Jews to have a meaningful Jewish experience that links them to the Jewish people. It is easy to compare Judaism to the religion of the majority in our own US culture but there is more to it than you seem to know.

I think you would be better served learning more about it rather than making assumptions.

[scholarsOrAcademics]

28. regarding (-ness)

well it is something new to me also. How about Irishness. Celtishness. Jewishness joins the list of --nesses. Are the characteristics attributed to a people ascribed or prescribed. Are Scandinavians stubborn by birth or do they learn in grade school that Scandinavians are stubborn. Its a popular attribution of Scandinavians. Are Germans meticulous and thorough by birth, cultural heritage, or do they learn in their families that Germans are thorough. Are Jews naturally attracted to banking and trade. Is Jewishness to include merely those attributes you would desire or do Jews absorb what others think is Jewishness.
I am diverting my reading to a second re-reading of
Edwin Black's book: The Transfer Agreement: the untold story of the secret agreement between the third Reich and Jewish Palestine, 1984. So if I do not reply at once it is because I'm absorbed in reading.
Another characteristic ascribed to Jews, Jewishness, is being highly articulate and political. Maybe that has bearing on the raw politics of Israel.
One error I have learned is to avoid trying to deconstruct to the nth degree all the possible implications and innuendos of general conversation.
There is of course the question of how deep biologically characteristics of a people are embedded. Are the Cohens determined by their DNA? Having the flu,a type of flu such as the 1915 flue, gives immunity for related flues, I suppose. Does having lived through an event (pogrom) give immunity to future events (anti-militancy, anti-warped and corrupted movements)?

[Meshuga]

30. You are attributing "-ness" to stereotypes...

...When I am merely talking about heritage and tradition that encompasses more than you seem to understand. Not some notion that Jews are good with money. And my usage of "Jewishness" stems from Jewish tradition and way of life. Not some stupid stereotype.

No one is saying that Israel is immune from attacks but it is a safer option depending on the case. Historically, Jews were tolerated and even allowed to thrive by various ruling clasees of different societies when things were good. But when things turned sour they were the easiest target. In case of Pogroms or a Holocaust I would take a safer option if it was available to me, obviously. You see, Hitler didn't kill Jews because they practiced Judaism. He wanted Jews killed for the mere fact that they were Jewish (practicing, non-practicing, believer, non-believer, convert to Christianity, etc.).

[HamdenRice]

8. Palestinian Christians are being driven out of the occupied territories

You are raising a complicated question about a wide variety of Christians in both Israel proper and the occupied territories.

The biggest community of Christians in I/P are Palestinian Christians. Until the rise of militant Islam, Palestinian Christians tended to be quite well integrated into the Palestinian community, and some of the top officials of the old PLO were Palestinian Christians, like Hanan Ashwari.

As Palestinians in the occupied territories, they are subjected to all the restrictions and abuses faced by other Palestinians. But they tend to have more economic resources and family overseas. As a result, Palestinian Christians emigrate from the occupied territories at a higher rate than Muslims, and the NY Times has had a series of articles about how this community, which has been around for centuries, is rapidly disappearing -- essentially driven out by the harsh treatment.

That said, this is not because Israel is targeting them for their religion, but because they are part of the larger, oppressed Palestinian community.

Another big issue with Christians in I/P is that several major Christian denominations -- Catholics, Greek Orthodox, Armenian -- have monastaries and other institutions there primarily to look after the holy places and shrines. These orders tend to have pretty frosty relations with each other as a result of disputes over jurisdiction and control of these places. Some of the protocols of control are almost laughably elaborate.

Their presence tends to incite the most ultra orthodox Jews, who, it has been recently reported, tend to verbally abuse and spit at the monks and priests as they go about their business. Again, this is not Israeli policy, which as I understand it, is pretty hands off toward the Christian orders.

[conscious evolution]

14. State of the Jews-Israel

Is it me or does that phrase sound anti semitic?

[scholarsOrAcademics]

16. serious?

is this supposed to be a serious question? I am not now and have never have been a shrink.

[scholarsOrAcademics]

18. accepting the Other

for Palestinian academics - what would this expression mean, "accepting the Other"? I know there are many thoughts on 'alterity", just what qualifies as 'other'. 'Other' could mean opposite, I stubbed by toe, the 'other' - I did not stub my toe. I believe in the Moslim God; the 'opposite'- I believe in the Buddhist God. Yin and its opposite Yang. Hegel, the dialectic of opposites. I believe in the fundamentalist Christian God. The 'opposite' - I believe in Christian piety (is this opposite?) at least as it was practiced by Prussians under William I ( it might have been William II).
Not to be excluded as possible candidates for 'Other' would be the humanism of Edward Said.
Further questions would involve the meaning of 'accept'. It could be as "until further notice" Or it could involve higher levels of passion. Belief, sets of beliefs. Dogma, doctrine - not to be questioned. To be questioned until no further questions.
It is my belief, opinion, no further questions, that one can not hold a position and not at the same time not hold it - not holding it being the 'opposite'.

[scholarsOrAcademics]

19. Again the Prime Minister asserts , Jewish State

Israel is a Jewish State. So, again. What is a Jewish State? Are secular Jews different from Moslems, Christians and other minorities in legal standing and access to jobs?

[Meshuga]

23. But it is a Jewish state

Created as a needed refuge for the Jewish people. Germans have Germany, Italians have Italy, and as a political movement, Zionism felt that there was a need for a Jewish state where Jews could go to in case of more pogroms and other forms of attacks on Jews.

Muslims, Christians, others don't have to become Jewish in order to become Israeli citizens but I don't know where you get the idea that Muslims, Christians and other minorities would have different legal standing and access to jobs.

I am not saying that discrimination doesn't exist in Israel. Unfortunately it is a reality, like it is here in the US, even among Jews. But there is no different legal standing and access to jobs. As far as religion, Muslims and Christian groups have self autonomy and their own houses of worship in Israel.

[scholarsOrAcademics]

25. a Jewish State of Israel, in a world of nation-states

Again it is not an assertion, it is a question. (but I don't know where you get the idea that Muslims, Christians and other minorities would have different legal standing and access to jobs.)
Interesting that you do state that religious Jews are a minority, the majority of Citizens not being religious Jews.
Its refreshing to get your input.

[TZ]

27. You do realize that Israel is a democracy not a theocracy right?

Even though it was established to have a homeland for displaced Jews, there is no religious requirement to be a citizen nor do you have to be Jewish to serve in the government either. The only thing where religion and citizenship really cross is the rule that anyone who has a relative who is a citizen can get citizenship
FWIW, I have some arab-Palestinian friends that have lived happily in Israel and enjoy being citizens.

[scholarsOrAcademics]

29. recommend newspaper

What is a good newspaper in Israel, on line, to follow Israel politics?
Israel has the reputation for being a democracy. Does hot money invest in Israel?

[Jeffersonian Dem]

20. The broader problem: religious bigotry, whether in the name of Judaism, Christianity or Islam

Religious bigotry is the problem, regardless of which religion the religious bigot claims to own.