An alternative to teaching evolution in the public schools.

[Boojatta]

It would be possible for qualified public school biology teachers to teach that one topic off-site, specifically at churches that agree to provide space for such classes.

People who oppose the teaching of evolution in public schools are typically not the slightest bit interested in biological science except for the one topic of evolution. It isn't necessary to devote time and money fighting them in court. Biological science isn't going to be pushed out of the public schools. The vast majority of study of biology will continue to occur in the public schools.

Students who want to learn about evolution will be able to take an occasional class at a church that offers such classes, taught by qualified public school teachers. Churches that refuse to offer such classes will be giving their members an incentive to visit churches that do offer such classes. In the long run, people who use the tactic of fighting the teaching of evolution in public schools will discover that it's a tactic that works against their own goals.

[BlooInBloo]

1. The church has no place in school, just like facts have no place within religion.

[Boojatta]

3. "The church has no place in school"

Who said that the church has a place in school?

[ulysses]

2. ?

You have to find a church to be taught evolution?

[Boojatta]

7. Well, the government has the option of saying that people

are presumed to know evolution, just as they are presumed to know the law, but I think it would be better to actually arrange for it to be taught.

Anyway, I think that a biology teacher could inform his or her biology classes of the location of evolution classes, especially if the teacher is teaching evolution classes at that location. Students wouldn't actually have to do any searching. They might have to make a choice if there is not just one church nearby offering such classes.

[ulysses]

13. if people can be presumed to know evolution,

then they can be presumed to know anything and the whole point of education is moot.

I still don't understand why evolution isn't taught IN A SCHOOL CLASSROOM in your plan. It's science. In a science class.

[Warren Stupidity]

4. It isn't necessary to devote time and money fighting them in court?

Yes it is. The theory of evolution is fundamental to biological science and to any sound course of study in biology. People who do not want their children to learn can remove them from the class or the school. Normal people should not have to go to some church (wtf?) to learn evolution, abnormal people, also known as religious idiots, are the ones who should be put out and inconvenienced.

We are winning this battle in the courts. Hands down.

[Boojatta]

9. Have you donated money to that cause?

It isn't necessary to devote time and money fighting them in court?

Yes it is.

[ulysses]

18. how does that bear on the truth of the post?

[Warren Stupidity]

21. Yes I support the ACLU and my state branch.

And what does that have to do with your suggested remedy, which amounts to capitulation to fundaloons?

[Boojatta]

22. capitulation?

Pushing back is one option, and capitulation is another option, but what makes you think those are the only two options? In martial arts, if your opponent pushes, then you can push back for a short time, and then suddenly pull, pulling your opponent off his feet and onto the floor. Is that an example of capitulation? I think not.

[Warren Stupidity]

24. ok fine, then consider your idea IDIOTIC. nt.

[Boojatta]

20. Is your post a digression or are you trying to support your claim "Yes it is"?

The theory of evolution is fundamental to biological science and to any sound course of study in biology.

Why is it necessary for all classes associated with such study to be held in a public school?

Normal people should not have to go to some church (wtf?) to learn evolution

People have to go where classes are held if they want to attend the classes. What difference does it make if the classes are held in a church? The only differences I see are that (1) they could be held on the weekend, allowing for regular classes to cover more material if evolution isn't covered in regular classes; and (2) the costs associated with having indoor space for evolution classes wouldn't be paid from taxes, but would instead be paid by churches

We are winning this battle in the courts. Hands down.

I suppose that if you were to claim that a particular battle must be won, then it would be embarrassing to discover that it cannot possibly be won. However, what does any of that have to do with the question of whether or not it's necessary to fight the battle? Maybe there are some battles that we cannot win, but that it's necessary for us to fight.

[Warren Stupidity]

23. So what if we are winning, let's surrender!

"Why is it necessary for all classes associated with such study to be held in a public school?"

It isn't, it is simply the normal state of affairs. There is no reason at all to move the biology class out of the school if the topic is 'evolution'. There is no reason to do anything at all. If you do not want to learn about evolution, stay out of the classroom or stay out of the school. Go learn ID at your church-run school. There is no good reason, and you certainly haven't even tried to state one, for normal people to be forced leave the school to study the evolution part of the curriculum.

"What difference does it make if the classes are held in a church?"

I object in principle to holding public school classes in a church. See the bill of rights. Aside from that it is a ridiculous logistical hassle and inconvenience and expense for everyone involved.

"I suppose that if you were to claim that a particular battle must be won, then it would be embarrassing to discover that it cannot possibly be won."

Please refer me to the court cases in the last few decades where the anti-evolution lunatics have won.

"However, what does any of that have to do with the question of whether or not it's necessary to fight the battle?"

Gee, I thought I laid that out: The theory of evolution is fundamental to biological science and to any sound course of study in biology. You cannot separate evolution from biological sciences.

That is why it is necessary to stop the lunatics from imposing anti-evolution religious non-science on science course in public schools.

"Maybe there are some battles that we cannot win, but that it's necessary for us to fight."

That would be the fundaloon position on this. Your position appears to be 'so what if we are winning, let's surrender'.

[mwb970]

5. Strange idea.

You study biology in school until the teacher wants to talk about evolution, then you pack up and go to a church? I don't see it happening.

[femmocrat]

6. Sure, it's possible, but....

Why would a qualified biology teacher want to do it?

The creationist believers aren't going to have a scientific awakening. They believe what they believe and so far, no amount of scientific evidence has changed their minds.

:shrug:

[Boojatta]

8. Why would a qualified biology teacher want to teach evolution?

I suspect that a biology teacher would consider that more important than helping students with various extra-curricular activities that take place at a school, even if the evolution classes are held off-site.

[Muttocracy]

10. As long as we teach physics without gravity and chemistry without atoms. nt

[Speck Tater]

11. NO! Demotes evolution to "second class" status, and segregates it away from the academic mainstream.

Thus further marginalizing it in the eyes of the fruitcakes who still think the earth is flat.

[CrispyQ]

12. Let's send those who want to study the theory of gravity, too.

:crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy:

[Muttocracy]

14. Some homework for you

Nothing in Biology Makes Sense Except in the Light of Evolution

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nothing_in_Biology_Makes_Sense_Except_in_the_Light_of_Evolution

[LeftyMom]

15. And any math lessons involving numbers will take place at the supermarket.

:wtf:

[Muttocracy]

16. but you don't have to learn numbers - you can just do the rest of math

and using numbers will be an optional afterschool activity!

edit - just in case: :sarcasm:

[cosmik debris]

17. We have no need for an alternative.

We have science classrooms for that purpose.

[rrneck]

19. Absolutely not.

Science teachers teach science. Science is taught in schools.

The evolution issue is not about science or religion. It's about power. It makes no sense to concede the foundation of modern biology to those who would have us living in the fourteenth century. If we concede that they will just want something else like telling us who to have sex with, who to vote for, or who to kill for some God they made up for that purpose. Fuck 'em.

[Silent3]

25. Okay, easy now... step away from the bong.

That's enough for one night, k?

[Random_Australian]

26. Not an acceptable alternative. The issue is whether high school students are taught evolution.

It underpins biology, so yes, it should be taught. What students *want* to learn is often very different from what they need to learn. It is the duty of the public school system to provide every student with a set of basic knowledge and learning skills, "having something that the students can learn if they want to" does not enter into it for the core set. (Of course, there is plenty of optional extras)

[Boojatta]

29. That's a good point.

[struggle4progress]

27. What is the point of this bullshit?

As far as I can tell, there's nothing serious about your suggestion: it doesn't actually shed any light on the psychological confusions of people who are uncomfortable with evolution or the ways evolution is used as a rightwing organizing topic; it doesn't actually shed any light on the variety of theological responses to modern biology; it sheds no light on any particular church; it certainly sheds no light on evolution; in short, it doesn't address any real issue at all

[Boojatta]

28. "in short, it doesn't address any real issue at all"

Are you assuming that your list of issues ...

(1. the psychological confusions of people who are uncomfortable with evolution

2. the ways evolution is used as a rightwing organizing topic

3. the variety of theological responses to modern biology

4. any particular church

5. evolution)

... includes every real issue?

If you aren't assuming that, then please explain how you arrived at the conclusion that the Original Post of this thread "doesn't address any real issue at all." Also, are you in the habit of posting in threads that don't address any real issue?

[edhopper]

30. Let's teach geology

without talking about the age of the Earth.
Let's teach astronomy without talking about a heliocentric solar system.
Let's teach math without saying 2 + 2 = 4.
Biology IS evolution.