Honest question: How does someone pretend to have a faith he doesn't believe in?

[knitter4democracy]

My husband and I are in the midst of a divorce that's getting more stressful and crazy by the day, and one of the things that's helped me is my faith. Now, I know many here don't go for that, and I'm not asking for any bashing of my faith. If you used to believe but don't no longer, how did that happen?

He and I both decided to convert to a different church while we were engaged (waited until after we were married), and I thought we were always on the same page about that. We were raising our kids in the faith, made sure to have our home altar (always my job, though), and we even talked about faith issues throughout the years. After he confessed his long-term infidelity (six years' worth) last fall, he and I were talking one night, and he asked me how I could still believe in "that God crap." I was blown away--I had no idea he'd stopped believing (there was a lot I didn't know, frankly).

While he's saying that he can't go to our church anymore because I "ruined" it for him by talking with a couple of close friends about all this, he's not going to any church at all. He wasn't there for Easter and didn't go anywhere for Western Easter, either, and he doesn't have a home altar. I'm thinking that he just plain doesn't believe anymore, and while I think the infidelity has a lot to do with that, I'm wondering how that happened.

If you ever believed, how did you stop believing in anything?

[nadinbrzezinski]

1. I was a medic for ten years

and having to declare a five year old after her dad's big rig runs over her, crushing her skull by accident tends to shake your faith

Seeing a woman in her thirties, shaking in fear, while her house burns, and hubby has threatened to kill her many times and she has bruises and all that, tends to shake your faith

Seeing a six month old die from a disease, like pneumonia, does that too

Having to declare a seven year old that died because the family could not afford asthma meds, well you get the picture by now

Now it has one effect, this, or the other. One of my partners became a Jesuit priest, because of shit like that

He was the one who said it, no middle ground

[knitter4democracy]

7. I think that might be part of it for him, too.

He's a doctor, so he's seen stuff like that and worse, and I think that's a part of why he doesn't believe anymore. He actually told me that, if I still believed, I'd have to believe that God gave me my kidney tumor, and I'm thinking that's where he is, faith-wise right now, that if God's as all-powerful as our faith says, then He's pretty crappy for making so many people suffer. That's not what our faith says, but that seems to be why he doesn't believe.

[nadinbrzezinski]

15. Well I understand that, I used to feel something when going to temple

not anymore

I am lucky that my hubby is just as skeptical as I am, due to his military experience

I don't mostly belittle people for their religious believes

Hey the more power to you, and it does help folks get over rough spots at times... but just don't push it on me

I get pretty loud with fundies, of any religious stripe

What I find funny is that I know them scriptures far better than many of them

[HeresyLives]

2. Has it ever done you any good?

I don't want to kick you while you're already down but you asked a question, and I'm giving you an honest answer.

[knitter4democracy]

6. Personally, yes.

The stories are too long to post, but I really think that my faith has helped me get through the crap in my life. I'm not saying it's not been tested or that I'm some perfect Christian by any means, just that it's helped me get through.

[HeresyLives]

8. 'God 'doesn't seem to have helped

your life any, no matter how much you prayed, or how many altars you attended.

A boot to your husband's rear end would have done you more good, mentally and emotionally.

[knitter4democracy]

11. And that's where we disagree.

I was suicidal before becoming honest with myself about faith and what I really believed, and I know that I'm just a believer. Even when faced with death, it was my faith that helped me get through that horrifying time and my love for my family. That's me, though, and definitely not how everyone could or should be.

I'll agree to the boot to the behind for him, though. :)

[HeresyLives]

13. You told yourself a fairytale.

You are still doing so.

Whatever helps you through the night...but until you deal with the reality of your situation, you will have problems.

PS. Wear cowboy boots. They have pointed toes.

[knitter4democracy]

14. Okay.

Just because some random person on-line told me so, I'll immediately stop believing in God. :eyes:

How is you telling me not to believe, when you don't know me and don't know my life story or really much of anything about me at all, any less rude than if I turned around and tried to get you to believe in God? Just because you think your answer is right doesn't make it any better. I think I'm right, and I have a feeling that if I said to an atheist or agnostic here that all their life troubles would be easier if they just started believing in God, you would probably be the first to get offended and tell me that I'm being rude. Because it is rude to tell other people how to believe or not believe.

[HeresyLives]

16. Hey, YOU asked the question.

So don't get all offended when you get answers.

[JerseygirlCT]

38. Except that's not the question that was asked. It was the one you wanted to

"answer".

[knitter4democracy]

39. That wasn't what I asked, though.

I asked for insight into how people of faith lose their faith, not an attack on mine. Please re-read the OP first.

[JerseygirlCT]

37. It is. Absolutely. nt

[Quantess]

20. She said in her OP that she wasn't interested in bashing of her faith.

Is it so hard to respect her wish?

edit: I thought this was GD.

[JerseygirlCT]

36. You know, it surely sounds like you DO

wish to kick her when she's down.

She started by asking not to have this same old, tired discussion, again.

And it's really not pertinent to her question to start with the dismissive language and the proclamations from your superior position.

If you don't have anything constructive to add, maybe just for today you could find a different punching bag?

[Critters2]

70. So you don't have any problems?

Wow. You should bottle that and sell it on ebay.

[varkam]

62. That's some pretty sanctimonious bullshit right there.

She just told you that her faith has helped her get through rough patches in her life, but you would presume to know better than she? Gimme a break, friend.

[Voice for Peace]

3. started thinking about what I believed, vs what I knew first-hand to be true.

the more I examined this, the less I believed;
the more I realized that my "beliefs" were nothing more than things I had been told by others.
the more I realized that most of my beliefs didn't make much sense to me,
nor did they particularly resonate with my heart, my feeling self.

Sorry for what you're in the middle of; it is agonizing. But it will pass & you'll move on.

[John Q. Citizen]

4. I used to believe in Santa Claus, but I don't any longer. One day I looked around and said to myself

"If Santa were really real, I'd be able to actually meet him and speak to him, and see him fly in his sled."

And I started asking questions. I asked, "How can Santa deliver all those presents all over the world in so short a time?"

Plus my mom and dad confirmed my worst fears. All those years it was them putting presents under the tree. So I became a non-believer. It hasn't hurt me, as far as I can tell. When my kids were a few years younger I pretended to believe in Santa, for them. Santa's a nice thing to believe in. But just because it's nice, doesn't mean i can believe in him. i can, however, believe in kindness, selflessness, generosity, and good will.

How did you stop believing in your first church and instead start believing in your second church?

i wish you strength and calm to get through this difficult time. It takes a while but it does get better.

[Towlie]

5. On Santa: Why does he give the rich kids nicer presents than he gives the poor kids?

But to answer the question, I never believed because the Universe can't possibly work like that. It just wouldn't make sense. However, I have a feeling your husband is very different from me and has his own reasons.

[knitter4democracy]

9. I think this was my kids' last year for Santa, too.

They're starting to ask questions, and they totally figured out that I've been the Easter Bunny this year. I didn't even want to do Santa or the Easter Bunny--my family convinced DD of it all, so then I sort of played along (probably not my best decision as a mom). DD still believes in fairies, though, so I guess that's something. I hate taking away that imagination, though DS really doesn't do that sort of thing. They're both really different that way.

We actually stopped feeling a part of the church we both grew up in for various reasons. For him, it was mostly changing his mind on theology. For me, it was the practice of the faith and the massive racism in my old church. I found that I need liturgy, the candles and incense, and the icons. I need the old prayers and such. The emotionally manipulative services in the evangelical church I grew up in were wearing thin, and then the racism I saw on the mission field from the top of the church down did me in.

[Warpy]

10. I can only remember being a little kid and afraid not to believe

I came out of the closet in grammar school, threats from the nuns and all.

Perhaps that's where he's been all these years, afraid not to believe.

I think there are a lot of folks out there who are afraid not to believe.

Don't forget that a church supplies more than stories and hope for a good afterlife. It also supplies community and people hate to give that up.

Your faith is your own. You're not responsible for anybody else's.

On edit: once the dust clears and the papers are all signed and you manage to go your separate ways, it does get better, a lot better. You will get through this. How he gets through it is his problem.

[knitter4democracy]

12. That makes sense.

Given how he was raised, I can see how he'd be afraid not to believe. I can definitely see that. Maybe he just didn't want to admit it all these years.

Thank goodness I'm not responsible for anyone else. Right now, I'm just trying to keep everything together for the kids. I figure that, while I am raising them in the church, their faithpath is their own. I can totally see my son choosing not to believe when he grows up (he's six and seems to be on the fence about it all), so I try not to pressure him too much.

[elshiva]

17. Losing my faith was kind of a divorce for me.

I spent four years at Roman Catholic studying theology. Really dedicated myself to that and just thought that some how I would get to be a nun and the church would take care of me. I guess what got to me was learning more about the amount of suffering in the world and how senseless it all is... It's just a pit of despair that never ends for most of the population of this world.

The thing that got me was the amount of homeless people in Baltimore. Also, the fact that there always seemed to be a new gay or lesbian at the GBLT community center each week who was turned out of his/her home at 15-17 for being who he/she was and just facing trouble, not only of being homeless, but being a GBLT HOMELESS person.

I used to believe that god took care of people who were considered "the least" in society. That's what my education taught me. When faced with these the suffering of humanity, most of the modern theologians suggested that god was not omnipotent. If he wasn't omnipotent, what's the point of him? It's just some guy, not god.

I wanted to believe in the "magic" of it. Also, church and religious groups were one of the few groups that really accepted me, I am way too ugly for the secular GBLT groups. I miss the community, but I can't be part of something that I don't believe in.

[knitter4democracy]

40. Thank you so much for this.

:hug:

What a powerfully honest post. Thank you for this. It's helping me understand so much. Btw, I seriously doubt you're ugly when you have a heart as beautiful and loving as you do. :hug:

[elshiva]

51. Thank you, I love your posts, too.

Also, I understand how personally soothing religious beliefs are during any sort of crisis. I think another atheist posted something once like, "I'm not going to tell a widow at her husband's funeral that there is no god or no heaven."

I'm critical of a lot theological discussions of the problem of suffering. Also, certain fundamentalist ideas about racism, sexism, classism, and homophobia. Ultimately, I'm not here to sit in judgement of any person's life, but only how he/she acts or what he/she says.

You are respectful. :hug:

[knitter4democracy]

52. I'm critical of a lot of those discussions, too.

I remember almost driving into a church's parking lot not long after my kidney surgery because the sign said something along the lines of, "With God, you get what you deserve" or something equally stupid. I realized right before turning in that yelling at the pastor would just piss him off, make me even more angry, and not get anything done. No one deserves suffering, and I personally don't think God is all that happy that we're suffering. Grrr.

One thing I wish I could change in the Christian church in general is the bigotry. If Jesus were alive today, I think the Parable of the Good Samaritan would be the Parable of the HIV+ gay married couple with kids. When I tell fundy friends that one, it always shuts them up. Samaritans were treated about the same in that culture at that time, and anyone who's sat in a pew in a conservative church for long knows that. Why they can't extrapolate from there is beyond me. Christianity is about love, but so many of us, me included too darn often, forget that.

[elshiva]

53. Yes, I get understand that, as I said, I was a Religious Studies Major in college.

I don't want to get in an argument, but I think if god was all loving and all powerful, there wouldn't kidney surgery or HIV. Yes, there are consequences to our actions, but say you get AIDs from rape or were born that way, that' not fair. There are theologians who would say that god's ways are mysterious and/or that I shouldn't judge god, but that's simply changing the subject. The universe makes a lot of sense as being godless, without a presence of an all loving, omnipotent, good god. If god's not all good and/or all powerful what's the point?

I respect the fact that you are vocally pro-gay. You have a lot more guts than I do. I'd love to see what you have to say to Julieanna. Julieanna was a former co-worker (I'm unemployed due to my illness now) who used to be my friend. I knew she was a fundamentalist christian, but she was nice to me until she looked too closely at a book I was reading at work. The book was called "Tough Girls" and it was about female superheroes. She was really curious about it even though I tried to keep her from looking at it. Somehow she got the book from me. The author was a woman and the blurb on the back said that she had written another book about lesbians. Julieanna said, "Oh, she's a lesbian." I tried to change the subject, but she started talking about how she used to "Ms. Magazine" until it got "too feminist" (huh?). I made the mistake of asking, "What is wrong with feminism?" She said because it says that lesbianism is fine. I asked her what was wrong with lesbianism. And she started a rant about how lesbianism was against the Bible. She quoted the first chapter of Romans. I tried to give another interpretation to the passage because I had done some research about how Paul wrote the epistle. She ended up asking if I was a lesbian and I said, "Yes" (at that time that's what I thought I was, but I am bisexual. I tried to be a lesbian, though.)

She asked me a lot of embarrassing questions, like if I'd ever had sex with a woman. I haven't. And, she said, "Good." At that time, I was also still a christian and part of an episcopalian pro-GBLT group called Integrity. I told her about Integrity and she said, "You have to witness against their errors." I tried again to get tell her a different interpretation of the text, but she was like, "Just read the Bible." It was really insulting because she knew me as a friend for several weeks and she knew I was a Religious Studies Major, but she was treating me like I was a three year old in Sunday School. I told her, "I am so angry that words on a page are making you act like this."

Seriously, I would love to see you talk to Julieanna. For myself, it's too personal because I am a bisexual woman who spent most of my time during college and a couple years afterwards in the college lesbian group (we were an all women's college) and at the Baltimore GLBT community center. I've heard too many real life horror stories. Right now I just want to stay far away from religion as possible. Yes, I have tried "welcoming communities" like Integrity, but even that was difficult to stand. They were a group of about 15 or so great GBLT people trying to take on the Maryland Diocese and so often they were lectured at like they were three year olds in Sunday School by priests and the bishops. Yes, there were and some great pro-gay priests and openly GBLT priests as well, they're still my heroes (as is Gene Robinson). Just couldn't stand seeing the good little guys and gals getting kicked in the ass.

Sorry this rant was so long. Had to get it out of my system. Thank you.

[knitter4democracy]

57. I would go off on her, just like I did that Focus on the Family PR chick.

Just like I do with anyone who has the gall to say in my hearing any of that crap. I have friends from college who were tortured there because they were gay, and one of my good friends was almost kicked out for being a lesbian. The college made her come out to all of her friends, including me, and made her write up a list of all of us so they could spot-check to make sure she did it. I have zero tolerance for that kind of shit. Zero. One of my college friends is HIV+, and my heart breaks for the hell he's gone through, starting at our hellhole of a Christian college. He's been one of my biggest supporters through all of this, and I'm making him a pair of fingerless mitts in his favorite colors to let him know how much I love him.

My answer is always to bring up slavery and then hit them with the Two Greatest Commandments, following up with the Seven Woes if the first two don't work. Usually, all that happens is that they dig in their heels and shut up, but with that PR chick, sometimes, I get through a little bit. I haven't run into her again when calling that f'd up place to rant and rave about whatever horrible thing they're doing, and I really hope and pray that she's not there anymore.

I completely understand why you've made the decision you have. It makes perfect sense to me. Honestly, if it weren't for the strong feelings I get in liturgy or when I'm out in nature, I would probably make the same decision. I'm so very sorry that former co-worker was a total asshat and needed a swift kick in the rear. I can't believe that she was so vicious (and she was--she knew you and totally ignored that), but if I could, I would give her a piece of my mind.

[elshiva]

61. Thank you, again.

I was often moved by the liturgy, but it just is difficult to put up with a church that says so many beautiful things about love and sacrifice, and still does such awful things as you wrote in your post.

Again, you have to make your own choices about what you believe... I think I know where you are coming from right now. There were many times in my life where church was the only place I could go where I was sure that no one would judge me on my looks. That's powerful and comforting, the reason I stayed for so long.

However, respecting people for who they are and not judging them on appearance is not essentially a religious value, it has more to do with common sense and humanistic ideas.

[knitter4democracy]

63. My church now is a lot better, though we still have a lot of work ahead.

Part of it's cultural, and in the Orthodox church, culture's huge (especially in the Greek church--it's very old-school Greek in many, many ways). That's slowly changing, though, as the second and third generations start taking over and we get more converts. The evangelicals like me who convert take awhile to loosen up, I've noticed, though many of us are just so thankful to find a church that's more what we need that we jump in and start swimming right away.

I don't miss my old church at all, and I'd love to burn down my old college (at least, that dark part of me would relish the job). Horrible things are done to people there in the name of the faith, and it's disgusting.

I'll say it again, though--there's no way you aren't beautiful when you have a heart that loving and kind. No way.

[Critters2]

71. I have a very good friend who's converted to Orthodoxy,

and it seems to be so good for him. I attended the Easter Matins and Vespers services, where he chanted. I was made to feel really welcome, and didn't feel lost even though I didn't know the liturgy, as I so often have in other liturgical churches. Everyone was really willing to help me find my way. The complete darkness before the light was passed was truly remarkable.

Yours is a beautiful faith tradition. I can see how it brings you comfort. Rest in that comfort, and don't let anything others say dissuade you. Yeah, it feels bad, but remember...

Christos anesti!!

[JerseygirlCT]

55. They can't extrapolate because they don't want to - it would

mean they'd actually have to act on something uncomfortable for them. It's easier to believe you're living totally on the right side of things, and therefore needed disrupt your comfortable existence in order to call yourself a believer.

And yeah, it's really strange, because Jesus spent all of his time in that uncomfortable area, pushing society's envelope and inviting in the stranger and the outcast.

And while this is easy to say and get angry about, count me in with those who often forget the lesson as well - I doubt many of us are immune to that!

[knitter4democracy]

58. Amen to all of that.

I doubt anyone in the right-wing churches would recognize Jesus today. He'd be at a Catholic Worker house or homeless at a soup kitchen passing out love. He wouldn't be in front of a clear plastic pulpit holding up his latest book and expounding on wealth, that's for sure.

[JerseygirlCT]

59. You know, I cannot remember who it was

but I remember some clergyperson on television talking about how he tried to see God in every person.

And I think the problem with the people you described is that *they're* looking for the evil in every person. So they'd likely miss God wherever God could be found.

[Why Syzygy]

18. Sorry you're going through the stress and crazy.

It doesn't have to be that way but often is.

I've never lost all faith, as in a Power, but it has changed a couple of times. The first time I started attending an alternate church and it just made more sense to me. I thought I could see how some of my original teachings had been distorted, and the new explanations seemed to fit reality better. After about three years, I read a very frightening Christian book, and scuttled the new belief system literally overnight. I had a pending wedding and even changed ministers due to the turn about.

Thirteen years later it was an intractable medical condition, which contributed to a divorce, that turned the tide again. We had attended a Bible church as a family for years. At one point, both of us in tears, he said, "I don't know if I even believe any more". I replied, "me either". It took about four more years before I was able to definitely say that I did not believe. Never stopped believing in the Power/Source, just the specifics.

I understand people who do not believe. I was there for eight years. It didn't matter if I wanted to or not. I could not. Life circumstances aren't any better as a 'non-believer' than they are as a believer. Don't let anyone tell you that. Believing or not is not the issue.

Last November/December I started researching a topic I prefer not to specify. Through that, I started looking at the possibilities of what might really be valid, rational even. I spent several weeks considering whether or not I could be Christian again. My mother, a Baptist, never believed that I wasn't because she "saw me get baptized" as a young girl. And, I do believe that I had a very real contact when I was three, although the age leaves open the possibility of fantasy for SURE. It still seems real. Whatever it was changed me forever, so there's no take backs. I concluded that I could accept the old beliefs, with some MAJOR new understandings and modifications supported by a variety of other sources. I still pray about my understanding a lot. Sometimes I question what I DO believe. But I can no more not believe at all than I could believe when I didn't. Some folks are notable for their idea that their power of mind is greater than any other. Nothing can escape their mental process (or gut feelings) and they cannot be wrong. Those are the truly deluded. I still read things that don't 'fit' into my belief system, which itself is a dynamic experience. My personality precludes ever being a type that is so certain that I am right, that I would charge anyone else to believe exactly as I do. That puts me out of many mainstream faith institutions. I'm just not going to do it.

There have also been two very specific situations in my past where prayer was answered in a dramatic, long lasting way. During my period of unbelief, I used to wonder to whom I prayed that answered those. I came to call it "I Am". That was the answer given to Moses, and was good enough for me. Nothing more than that.

Your husband is probably doing what a lot of us do, and that is search for truth and meaning. At least he seems to be still asking questions and hasn't come to a dogmatic place where he knows for damn sure that he's right about everything.

[left is right]

19. first, allow me to offer my sympathies for the hurt you must be feeling in these very terrible days

Now to the question, I think for most people they believe in God up to the point that He demands something of them. It is easy to say I love God. He loves me. However, faith is more than words. Your soon to be X went through the motions until it interfered with what he wanted to do. And then he quit on faith. I think American Churches fail their people by not explaining that believe in God requires living for someone beside self.
For myself, I used to be actively involved in church. I quit because I could no longer rationalize the worship of all things Bush. I miss it. I miss the people, even if they were dead wrong about so-called conservatism.
I used to say, I am liberal because following Christ demands it of us. Through my study of the Bible, Jesus was a feminist--look how he treated the woman at the well. He was a liberal--look how he treated the poor. He was concerned about people's physical needs, he was tolerant of peoples weakness. I don't understand why nonbelievers do not find him more compelling.
Take care of yourself. You will get through this

[napoleon_in_rags]

21. I think people get caught up in black and white with faith.

Like if he had this notion of himself as being strong in God and God being the source of goodness, then any part of that being damaged...Maybe by questioning the faith, or maybe by the infidelity, ...whatever, damage to one part damages the other parts. When I was young we noticed that it was the Christian kids who would get really crazy in to drugs and sex, or stay away from them completely. Because they associated abstinence with faith: if you broke it in a tiny way you might as well break it in every way possible. So that is my guess of what happened here: He broke some part of his self concept as good, and then he just said fuck it, I might as well go all the way since I'm not good anymore. So instead of being an atheist, talking about divorce or whatever he lived this lie. That's my guess.

[knitter4democracy]

41. That makes a huge amount of sense.

Having gone to a Christian college, I saw a lot of those kinds of kids--the ones who go crazy when not under their parents' stern control anymore who then spiral downward thinking a bit of wrongdoing means they might as well go all the way. This makes sense to me, given his behavior through this time.

[coyotespaw]

22. Pretending to believe is much like

any other white lie that tends to smooth out things in a relationship. "That dress doesn't make your ass look big." "I think that bald is beautiful." The thing is, once the relationship starts to unravel, then people stop being nice; and more often than not turn those white lies back against their partner. Hell, you should have been there for some of the arguments between my ex and I.
While I'm proudly faithless, I would hope that your experiences haven't cost you your belief. Sorry to hear about the way things are going for you, and best of luck to you as you work past these events.

[knitter4democracy]

42. God and I have an understanding.

I'm allowed to rant, rave, and get super angry at Him, and it still seems to be okay. ;) Just when I start really wondering, I feel His presence, which is really hard to describe, and He helps me get through in a million little ways. It's a really personal thing, and no, not even a divorce from a narcissist can hurt that.

I can see the white lie thing. He was lying about so much by the end, before he confessed, that I'm not sure he knew what was real anymore.

[struggle4progress]

23. People can use the same words without meaning the same things

My religious notions have changed as I changed

In elementary school, I think I was pretty traditional in my beliefs

When I got to high school, I began to ask sincere questions about almost everything I had ever been taught by my society; rather than meaningful answers, these questions usually produced angry responses from friends and neighbors -- and, being adolescent in my thinking, I tended to interpret the enraged non-answers as evidence of intellectual dishonesty and moral bankruptcy, rather than as evidence that my questions were uncomfortably probing. For me, this was the beginning of a long and complete collapse of faith in absolutely everything I had assumed true: I ceased to believe in the progress of human civilization, in the reliability of science, in the goodness of human beings, in the possibility of American democracy, and so on. Traditional theological answers lost all their meaning for me at that time, too. I did not consider any of this as a psychological crisis at the time, though I will say that quite a few other people were convinced that I was profoundly disturbed. In some sense, that period marked for me a point of no return: I could not see any honest path to recovering my prior illusions -- but I had to recognize that both the illusions and the disillusionment had common origins and were associated (for example) with my assumptions and ethical views about physical reality and the nature of other human beings. In some sense, perhaps, I have never resolved that collapse of faith: instead, my views became more complicated with experience

Unfortunately, perhaps the best advice I can give is a platitude: painful psychological crises really may offer opportunities for growth

[Meshuga]

24. He was doing this religion conversion to be with you

And not for himself and that was the problem. He wasn't honest with you from the beginning. So I don't think his lack of faith enabled him to commit adultery but his own selfishness was the factor.

I am so sorry that you (and your kids) have to go through all this. :hug:

[knitter4democracy]

43. I'm beginning to wonder about that.

Just how much of our early relationship was manipulated by him to make sure that he got me. Given his narcissism, it's highly likely that it was all a sham.

[PassingFair]

25. "If you ever believed, how did you stop believing in anything?"

Do you mean "How did you stop believing in
anything -- for which there is NO evidence?"

I don't believe in supernatural entities
that can be moved to assist me by intercessory
"prayer".

That doesn't believe that I "don't believe in
anything"!

I believe I'll have another cup of coffee soon.

:hi:

[knitter4democracy]

44. I mean that, for those who started out in a faith, how did they leave it?

For those who've never been part of a faith, I'm sure it all sounds a bit weird. I hope the coffee was good. :)

[Silent3]

26. People go through the motions with a lot of things

When the choice is between going through the motions or opening up an unpleasant can of worms it's often a lot easier to go through the motions for as long as you can. That can't be too surprising, can it?

I suspect a lot of people who attend various churches do so simply because it's habit, it's a comfortable familiar pattern, they like the feeling of social support and community, because telling people they didn't believe anymore would cause a lot of friction and fuss among family and friends, etc. They'll say what they are expected to say, even to family, even to spouses, to fit it.

I'll bet a lot of people take a long time even when it comes to telling themselves that they don't believe any more. I'd guess there's often a slow shift from strong belief to tepid belief, from concrete belief in the specifics of a particular religion to abstract belief in vaguely religious ideas, with a transitional time when you continue to go through the motions of one particular religion because, well, you tell yourself that since you still believe in "something" you might as well stick with one particular take on belief that you're comfortable with, even when it's no longer a close match for what you really believe any more.

Then there are people who may never have believed and all they've ever had is going through the motions because they'd rather go with the flow and not rock the boat. When you consider how often people change religions when they get married (like you said you did) then one has to wonder how strong people's religious beliefs are, at least when it comes to specific doctrinal issues, when picking a religion to match one's new marital situation is done in a way that's a lot like picking curtains to match the sofa.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

33. To answer your question about how people can change religions

All religions (as they have evolved over the centuries) are ATTEMPTS to understand The Ultimate. In my case, the change wasn't a very big jump (Lutheran to Episcopalian), and the reasons were cultural rather than doctrinal. I just didn't fit into the "typical suburban nuclear family" mode that present-day Lutherans are into.

I mean, if you walk into a church for the first time and see that the weekly calendar contains listings for the youth group, the couples' group, and the senior citizens' group, period, and you're a 34-year-old single, you're going to feel out of place.

I need ritual and beautiful music to concentrate my mind, and I need some place that is accepting of single people, instead of an environment where everything is "family this" and "family that" ("family" meaning mom, dad, and the kids). Since the Episcopal Church is one of the most gay-friendly denominations, it's also one of the most single-friendly, because people don't assume that you're going to come equipped with a standard nuclear family. For that reason, there are children's activities, sure, and teen activities, but none of the adult activities require any specific marital status.

Theologically I'm not entirely in tune with standard Christian doctrine (I'm more of a universalist), but fortunately, the preaching in my church is more about relationships (with God and with one another), reconciliation (with God, with our own selves and with one another), and doing God's work than about believing any specific list of precepts.

A number of people in this thread have mentioned intellectual inability to deal with religion. For me, it was never about intellect, although I enjoy reading about comparative religions and religious history. It's always been about intuition and experience.

[knitter4democracy]

45. We knew beforehand that we wanted to convert but waited for family.

I knew that his mom would blow her top if we converted before the wedding and then had the wedding in our new church. She stopped talking to us for awhile after finding out we were converting as it was. It was silly--we should've followed our hearts regardless, but his mom has a lot of power over him, and I didn't want our wedding to be a showdown of sorts. While we both came to the decision to convert from different directions, we both came to the same conclusion and were firm about it for a year before finally going through with it.

[Silent3]

27. As for "If you ever believed, how did you stop believing in anything?"

I was raised Catholic. I was even an altar boy for a while. My father was the more religious of my two parents, and my beliefs before my teens were fairly close to his own liberal take on Catholicism, with a God who cared more about what people did to and for other people than what prayers the said and what rituals they performed. If that God wanted anything from people apart from being good to other people it was perhaps something like thankfulness and respect, but not grovelling.

I never had any particular loss of belief moment. I stopped going to church in my teens when my parents stopped making me go with them (my mother stopped going most of the time too, so it became something only my father did). I briefly hung out with a "non-denominational" Christian youth group, but only because they had cool things like a trampoline and (very different from any such group you'd be likely to find these days) they ran a really good Halloween horror house that was simply fun, nothing at all to do with the "evils" of homosexuality and abortion.

By time I was around 19 or 20 I considered myself an agnostic. Some time a few years ago I became more comfortable calling myself an atheist as soon as I realized that you can be an atheist simply by lacking belief, rather than, as I'd previously taken "atheist" to mean, adamantly denying any chance at all of a deity of any sort.

I credit my loss of belief to developing my rational faculties as I grew older, which certainly weren't as strong when I was young as they are now. When I was around middle school/early high school age, along with believing in God and Jesus and all of that, I rated as a whole lot more probable than I do now things like "ancient astronauts", Big Foot, ghosts, the Loch Ness monster, mysterious other-worldly things happening in the Bermuda Triangle, etc.

My loss of belief certainly wasn't the result of any sudden tragedy or personal loss. There wasn't any major impact from thinking, "Oh! How could there be a God with all of the terrible things that happen in this world!?", although I suppose such thoughts worked to eliminate some particular conceptions of God as worth of serious consideration.

[rrneck]

28. I never stopped believing. My faith

keeps me alive. Literally. My practice of faith is not something that most people would recognize because I made it myself, thus to lose it would be to lose a part of myself.

If this seems a too short answer to a difficult and complex question I apologize. There is nothing more that I could add to a thread that contains carefully considered compassionate responses to someone who is experiencing difficulty. And I am betting none of the people on this thread have never actually met. That, in itself, should be a source of faith for anyone. It is for me.

Just imagine the world of people out there who are better for you than your soon to be ex.

[knitter4democracy]

46. Bless you.

You have a loving soul, and I needed those words of balm tonight. :hug:

[TechBear_Seattle]

29. A lot of people just go through the motions

If your faith is meaningful to you and brings you comfort, then don't bother about the naysayers.

I used to be a believer: I was a deacon with the Metropolitan Community Church for two years and latter started diocesan classes that would have eventually led to ordination with the Episcopal Church. I have also practiced Wicca and studied Buddhism. My unbelief was a slow process based on studying Scripture and observing the world around me. But that probably does not address the matter with your husband.

Perhaps he converted even though he was indifferent, because he knew it meant a lot to you. Or maybe he was just saying something hurtful, the way people tend to do when dealing with things like divorce. I don't know, and it is possible that he doesn't know either. In any case, you have my good thoughts. My parents went through a very messy divorce so I know how tough it can be on everyone.

[ZombieHorde]

30. "his long-term infidelity (six years' worth)"

Wow, I would be so angry and so insecure at the same time.

While he's saying that he can't go to our church anymore because I "ruined" it for him by talking with a couple of close friends about all this, he's not going to any church at all.

This could mean that he feels shame and embarrassment for what he did to you and he can't face others who know what he did.

If you ever believed, how did you stop believing in anything?

I lost my faith in God when I figured out Santa. I guess I had them all lumped together.

[knitter4democracy]

47. It's been rough.

I honestly had no idea. Whenever my spidey sense would tingle (or whatever you call intuition), I figured I was just being paranoid (not that it happened all that often, even). He's already engaged to Mistress #2, even though her divorce and ours aren't final yet and won't be for months yet. He's getting more irrational and angry by the day, and I feel like I'm just treading water. It's a seriously sucky situation.

[dmallind]

31. To answer the specific question - it's a piece of the proverbial pie

Just look at our political office holders at the national level. We have ONE open non-believer, who admitted this after 16 terms and because he was going to be outed anyway. Does anyone think for a second that's the real truth? In a group heavy with graduate-degreed Ivy League educated wealthy white folks - every single one of those factors being inversely correlated with religious belief?

How? Simple! Mouth the usual platitudes and false pieties you hear saturating our political and social discourse. Show up at a church every so often (when cameras are there if you're in politics). Religious people EXPECT only vague and shallow understanding of their dogma, history and teachings because that's all the vast majority of them have too. It's not like you have to fake something complex like a medical degree to be accepted in a congregation of mainstream Xian denominations

Why? Even more simple - because non-believers are THE most despised group in this nation. The least trusted, the least politically or socially acceptable. Lack of belief is injurious to your career, social standing and often even your health and life.

How do you stop believing? All it took for me and many others is rational examination of the truth value of the claims made by religion. By the time I knew how to apply inductive logic (long before I learned the formal tools and vocabulary for it) it was such an easy claim to show as unsupported. Your husband? Who knows? Maybe he was faking it all along to make you happy. maybe he expected it to make him happy with you. Don't know the guy so can only guess.

[stopbush]

32. For me, facts overwhelmed the fantasy.

As a Christian, I was taught to believe that god was a being that had authority over everything, that he/she/it was omniscient and omnipotent, that he always had been and always would be.

I was taught that we knew he existed and his authority existed because "the Bible says it's so," that even though the Bible was written by men, those men were directly inspired by god to write what they wrote when they wrote it.

But as I grew, I started to see that much of what god was a supposed authority on just wasn't true. Things like how the world was "created," what or who caused diseases and other things in the natural world that had since been explained through science, and explained in ways that directly contradicted what the Bible said. Let's face it, when it comes to science and explanations of the natural world, Yahweh and Number One Son are a couple of dimwits.

Hmm, I thought - if the Bible is wrong on stuff like this, how can I trust it on other things, especially more important things...like, does god even exist in the first place?

At some point, I started to examine the "history" presented in the Bible against the actual history as proven through archaeology, geography and geology. Eventually, I learned that there was absolutely no evidence that the Jews were ever slaves in Egypt, that there was never an Exodus, and that most of the heroes of the OT were simply mythical archetypes culled from other, earlier religions. I also studied history and was shocked to learn that there was absolutely no evidence anywhere that Jesus existed outside of the conflicting stories of his life given in the Gospels. This really shocked me because I had always been told that Jesus was mentioned in LOTS of non-Christian sources that were contemporaneous with the time Jesus lived. But I found out that that was an outright lie.

Not only that, I eventually learned that the earliest source materials for the NT date no further back than the 4th century, and that these materials were copies of copies of copies of copies of originals that had long vanished from the face of the Earth. I also learned that these source materials were themselves a mess of contradictions and corruptions that needed to be codified into an "acceptable version" by councils of men (not god) who decided what was in and what was out based on political decisions as much as any search for truth.

After a while, you begin to realize that faith is a poor substitute for evidence, and authoritative evidence no less. When the reality of the hucksterism of it all is staring you in the face, that leap of faith becomes a chasm that I just couldn't vault anymore.

The good news - I've never been happier since I chucked religion. Being loosed of its shackles is wonderful.

Perhaps you will consider it for yourself. Let loose the fear and guilt that religion uses to keep the faithful in line and see where it takes you. You may be pleasantly surprised.

[knitter4democracy]

48. Fear and guilt aren't as much of a faith thing for me, though.

In my church, the Eastern Orthodox Church, you get that, sure, but it's very different than the guilt that the Nazarene church put on us. It's more along the lines of, "Well, you know that was wrong, so do your best to stop doing it; tomorrow's another day, and try praying a bit more tonight to see if that helps," and not "You're going to burn in hell for that." There are people who really get into all the guilt and fear stuff, sure (and much of that seems cultural, which is weird to me), but most of us don't really pay attention to them. Orthodox clergy are some of the most laid-back people I've known. It's a better fit for me than the Nazarene church I grew up in.

[stopbush]

56. I understand. The fear and guilt is a tool to keep some people

believing the fantasy is true, but it isn't always necessary. Sometimes the hope that it is true is enough, but it's still hoping that a fantasy has truth behind it.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

34. I'm very sorry to hear this, Knitter

I hope you're getting a lot of support in your church community.

[knitter4democracy]

49. I am, thank goodness.

Our priest and his family have been friends of ours since he started at our church a few years back, and he's just sick about it and has been very understanding and gentle with me. After the civil divorce is final, then we have to go through the church divorce, but Father told me not to worry about it and that he'd take care of it for me.

[JerseygirlCT]

35. Do you think perhaps that both the infidelity and the loss of faith

happened because of the same underlying issue? (Don't know what that could be, of course). Seems a couple of big changes.

Definitely sounds like he's just looking for an excuse wrt attending church anymore - blaming it you gets him a two-fer, you know? No more church and it's ALL YOUR FAULT wrapped into one neat package.

In any case, I'm very sorry you're going through all this. And I'm glad your faith is bringing you some comfort. And since he's decided not to attend your church anymore, I think you should feel perfectly free to lean on as many people as you wish there for support through this!

[knitter4democracy]

50. And I do. It's just hard to see him as a totally different person now.

I mean, I thought I knew him, you know? Now I find out that he's been cheating for years and years, that what he used to hate he loves and what he hates he used to love, and I just flat-out don't know this guy anymore. It's been a hard part of the process, to realize that I was apparently married to a stranger for years.

[JerseygirlCT]

54. I'm so sorry, Knitter... nt

[Igel]

60. Here's my belated attempt.

"If you used to believe but don't no longer, how did that happen?"

First, I'm pretty sure I do still believe. However I worked for a church for nearly a decade, and was in it for 5 years before that. It was a small church, so I knew pretty much everybody, even though it was also spread out across the US. We had an annual 8-day retreat each fall, and I lived in a few different parts of the country prior to working for it.

I left the church in 1991.

I still believe because my beliefs had absolutely nothing to do with the church or with anybody in the church. They also have little to do with me--whether I live by them or not, I still believe that they're true. I thought through them, checked that what I took as evidence and the logic used in drawing conclusions were acceptable and adequate for my purposes, and that what I thought "adequate" was indeed adequate. I haven't changed my mind about that last point. The process I put this set of beliefs through is the same I'd use today. I rejected some minor bits in the church doctrines but saw no point in making a big deal over the fact.

Now, I left when the church was going a bit goofy and in two years lost about 40% of its membership. A decade later, it split, and lost more.

Why did people leave?

In some cases, they said they didn't ever really believe it. That strikes me as unlikely in most cases, but possible in a few--you cheat on your wife for years, what's to keep you from lying?

In other cases, they believed because a certain man told them it was true--they had faith not in the doctrines, but in the preacher or some contact person. When that person lost faith, well--if *he* didn't believe it, how can I?

In other cases, they converted because of some need: There'd been something upsetting, or they needed the comfort that some church member provided, and the church was a convenient shelter; with the shelter came the doctrines, and they were emotionally attached to them and accepted them without seriously critiquing them. Then, later, they didn't have an emotional need and moved on. Perhaps the need was for a higher power, and the doctrines at hand were the ones from "my" church.

Some grew up in the church and had never really questioned their faith.

You've heard that some teenagers aren't really in love with their significant others, but are in love with the idea of being in love? Some people love the idea of believing. They so want to believe in *something* that they try and try, but eventually give up.

Some people find that they no longer find their logic or their criteria for accepting "evidence" to be the same. They've shifted their thinking and with it, what their faith was built on. Others haven't actually thought through the consequences of their belief system--and when they are confronted with something novel or consider something in a different light their logic comes unravelled. For example, I have no problem with saying "God is love", "God is omnipotent," and also saying that God allowed the Holocaust. There's no inconsistency there, no conundrum to be solved. For others, the inconsistency is so great that the only conclusion is that God doesn't exist or is evil--and if they're given a counterargument, they don't find it convincing. So be it.

[Name removed]

64. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Evoman]

65. I've never had faith, so I've never had anything to lose.

However, I did pretend once, so I would fit in at a youth group my friend went to. If anyone had pressed me though, or insisted I had to go to church every week, I would have come clean.

I don't know how you stop believing.

[eomer]

66. I stopped believing when I started thinking.

I gradually stopped believing over a period of years and I think the strongest influence was the realization that more than half of the believers in the world have got to be wrong. The tenets of the major religions exclude each other so at most one of them can be true and all the others have got to be false. I'm free to pick one of them and believe in it, but on what basis would I choose and how would I then believe? On no basis at all, as far as I can tell, and then I'm supposed to get faith, from where I don't know, that the ones I didn't choose are false. It makes no sense to me, because it makes no sense.

Another thing that caused me to stop believing was when I realized the number of things in the Bible that are not true, cannot be true. Why would I decide to believe in a faith system whose origin is a document that is chock full of utterly false, absolute nonsense?

I can understand feelings of spirituality that are more abstract; I don't understand at all people who believe in all the specifics of religions when a large percentage of those specifics can easily be shown to be false.

The realization of all this is what stopped me from having faith and then over the years made me feel more and more convinced in my new beliefs that there is no God, or at least no God that remotely resembles the one that most believers believe in.

[raccoon]

67. I'm sorry this is happening, Knitter.

:hug:


"While he's saying that he can't go to our church anymore because I "ruined" it for him by talking with a couple of close friends about all this"

Don't buy into that nonsense!

[Manifestor_of_Light]

68. I'm sorry you're going thru such a hellish divorce, knitter.

The line from hubby that you "ruined it for him" is BS. Do not believe that.

Sounds like he was faking it going to church to make you happy.

I was once a xtian. I prayed and read the bible and did everything I was supposed to do. The people kept telling me life would be better and I would be part of this special club.

Well, God never talked to me. God never answered my prayers. It was futile. And nobody in the church would help me get a job. I decided that if God works thru his followers, then God didn't care if I starved to death. And I got more and more depressed the more I went to church. The preachers ranted about how sinful we all were. I wanted to go home and kill myself because of their telling us we were so horrible because we were human. I did not ask to be born.

I couldn't ask questions and complain because they insulted me with the response that I did not pray hard enough, or believe hard enough. Many things they did insulted my dignity and I needed to be built up and not torn down.

I had to stop going to ANY Christian church because I was suicidal. I took it too seriously and that was my mistake. Religion didn't change anything for me; faith did not change anything. In my view, the world was going to keep turning and nothing I could do would show me that there was a God, or that he/she/it/they was concerned about me or any human.

IF you have faith and that helps you, and you see results, that's good. But he is obviously not believing in it for whatever reason. Don't let him blame you for that.

[knitter4democracy]

69. Bless you.

Thank you for this. It has been hellish. Today was our mediation conference, and while I won on all the big stuff, it was amazingly painful and awful. Thank goodness I didn't have to actually deal with him directly, though.

I can totally see how anyone could get like that in a hellfire-and-brimstone church. Sinners in the hands of an angry God and all that rot. I've been away from that kind of church for so long now that it feels foreign to me, though I still know the lingo and well remember the guilt and fear. They're really not healthy places to be for most people, I think, but that's just my opinion.

It's about love, and know that you are loved. :hug:

[Manifestor_of_Light]

72. Thank you.

I can't handle any Xtianity at all, b/c of original sin. And they all start with original sin as a doctrine even if they don't emphasize it.

I don't want anyone telling me I'm bad just b/c I was born. Sure there is evil in the world, and we all stumble and make mistakes, but that is just a soul destroying doctrine to me. I know this is a rant, and I have argued with many others about it, but I can't do Xtianity.

I know Xtianity has many adherents who are good people, and I know some of them.
I wish I could believe and have faith, and have it supported by evidence, or at least what I think would be evidence, like answered prayers.

I realized that ALL authority figures want to have power over you. Unhealthy parents, teachers, preachers, public figures and such.

And many people give their power over to authority figures without complaint. They let other people define them and tell them what to think and how to act.

I'm glad you're making progress on your divorce. In my first, brief marriage, I was married to a Jewish boy whose parents, although they were liberal Reform, were terribly arrogant and self-righteous. They wanted me to convert. I told them I was not a Xtian, and they didn't believe that. Had the marriage survived, I probably would have converted. Turns out that 30 years later, my ex, who pointed out to them that my folks didn't insist that he become a Protestant, has become a liberal Methodist but never told his parents.

The second one was an atheist but he wouldn't go to the Unitarian church with me. He was a narcissist. He just didn't want to do anything with me around. I told him lots of atheists were Unitarians but he wanted to be mean to me.

:wtf: :shrug:

[knitter4democracy]

73. Then you know where I'm coming from.

STBX is a narcissist. Very, very painful and nasty crap for years.

I understand the Original Sin issue. I have the same one. It was a large part of the decision for me to convert to the Orthodox church--they define it totally differently. To the Orthodox, we are born good. Original Sin refers just to the sin in the Garden of Eden that brought sin into Creation (it's their way of explaining why bad things happen to good people and why there are hurricanes, etc.). We are good beings born into a screwed up place where it's easier to screw up than do the right thing, and we tend to go with what's easy. The book I read on that (Orthodox Way by Bishop Ware) said we deliberately went that way because the Doctrine of Original Sin in the Western churches makes sex bad, and we didn't want to make sex bad (if it makes a sinful, evil being come into the world, how can it be a good thing, or so the logic goes). We also weren't comfortable with saying unbaptized babies were going to hell. So, we baptize babies just to give them the best chance at choosing to be good in a screwed up world but not because we think they're going to hell and need some magic water to keep that from happening.

It really messes with Protestant friends' heads when I try to explain that. :D

[EvolveOrConvolve]

74. I came to the realization that I never really believed

I always pretended because that's what was expected by others who were in positions of authority in my life.

If your faith helps you, especially during a difficult time like this, I applaud your for finding a way (any way) to deal with the pain. But, don't automatically blame your husband's infidelity on his sudden lack of faith. Religious and non-religious people cheat, and their religion or lack thereof didn't have anything to do with it.

[MikeH]

75. I felt that my faith had not been of help to me in enabling me to deal with personal issues

I am sorry to hear about your marital troubles and your divorce, k4d. I am glad that your faith is of help to you. Hugs to you. :hug: :hug:

I myself used to be a Christian; I no longer am because I came to the realization that being a Christian, and supposedly having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, had been of no help to me in enabling me to deal with anything that was a source of personal pain, frustration, or unhappiness in my life.

The biggest problem I had for which I found Christianity to be totally unhelpful was my relationship with my father. My dad did some very good things, and was far from being the worst father anybody ever had. However he was often very judgmental, and sometimes bordered on being abusive, especially emotionally and psychologically (though I did get my share of spankings when I was a kid). He often decided in Godlike fashion that I needed to be yelled at like I had committed a crime when I had honestly forgotten something, made an honest mistake, or something was not according to his standards. And he would always say he was doing it “http://www.nospank.net/fyog.htm">for my own good”. And he was often especially poor at understanding, or even trying to understand, from my point of view, some difficult or sensitive personal issue which was causing me to be unhappy, upset, or frustrated.

I went to church and Sunday school at a Lutheran church as a kid and as a teenager, and to a confirmation class when I was in 7th and 8th grades; however I think I “really” became a Christian and started taking Christianity seriously when I was about 20. I was very unhappy and had many problems as a youth, and it made sense that I should give God (and Jesus) a try, as I had heard that doing so might just make the difference in my life, and fill a “God-shaped void”, as I had sometimes heard.

I briefly became involved with the fundamentalist Christian organization http://www.campuscrusadeforchrist.com/">Campus Crusade for Christ :puke: at my college campus (San Diego State University). At first glance they seemed like a wholesome, happy bunch of people who had found something very important, and I needed to meet people. However I came to find that I had some serious problems with some things that they believed, preached, taught, and advocated doing.

For instance, I realized I just could not accept the belief that people who did not "accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior", for whatever reason, were going to be condemned to hell. And I could not accept the duty and obligation to approach other people, or share with them Campus Crusade's http://www.campuscrusade.com/fourlawseng.htm">Four Spiritual Laws :puke:, motivated by the above concern, so that they might come to accept Christ and become "saved".

The idea of hell was something that especially bothered me. It was not just the fear or worry about going to hell myself. I was especially bothered by the idea of other people supposedly going to hell if they do not “accept Christ” or are not “saved” in this present life, and the resulting duty and obligation to tell others about Christ with that thought in the back of my mind -- something for which I felt complete and utter distaste, and absolutely no joy or enthusiasm about doing.

It eventually occurred to me that one of the conclusions of the fundamentalist belief about heaven and hell, and being “saved”, is that an “unsaved” murder victim goes to hell, while if the murderer later “repents”, and “accepts Christ”, the murder is let into heaven. Even though I was still a Christian after that thought had occurred to me, I realized that from then on I completely rejected any fundamentalist approach or understanding of Christianity.

I went to some "mainline", non-fundamentalist churches, specifically Presbyterian, Methodist, and Lutheran churches at different times. Even if I did not accept the fundamentalist approach or understanding, and did not believe that those who, for whatever reason, did not “accept Christ” during this lifetime were going to go to hell, I wanted to believe that having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ might be of help to me and make a difference in my life.

All during the time I was going to church and taking Christianity seriously I had been having some problems, including problems at some of my early jobs, and especially problems in my relationship with my dad.

My dad died in 1985, shortly before my 35th birthday. I came to realize, in early 1987, a little over a year after my dad died, how angry I still was at him. I came to realize that he actually had been abusive, or at least borderline so, at times. I.e. it was not just something wrong (or “sinful”) with me that I had problems with him, and was often angry with and resented him and things he said or did, which anger and resentment spilled to other people and to other areas of my life.

Coming to the realization that my dad had actually been abusive at times was a healthy milestone in my life, though I had a lot of anger for a long time, and was in therapy, both individual and group therapy, over a period of years.

Along with the realization that my dad had actually been abusive at times, I also came to the realization that being a Christian, and supposedly having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, had not been of any help to me in enabling me to deal with my dad those times he was difficult or obnoxious, and had also not been of help to me in dealing with other problems and issues in my life. In fact there were some particular passages in the Bible which aggravated my problems with my dad; notably the commandment to unconditionally “honor your father and mother” (which in the biblical text does not make exceptions if a parent is abusive, neglectful, or otherwise does not deserve honor), and a passage in Hebrews 12 which says to gladly accept the chastening of the Lord, like that of a “good” father.

After a long struggle I eventually came to realize that I needed to part company with the Christian faith, and I am as certain as I am of anything that doing so was the right and healthy thing for me to do.

As a Christian I had wanted to accept the assurance and certainty of a life after this present life; that was one of the hard things to let go of. The question of life after this present life is presently an open question for me.

I consider the Bible, having been written by fallible human beings, to exhibit human fallibility and human prejudice just like anything else that has ever been written. As a result of my problems with my father, and feeling the way I do about him, I specifically think that the commandment to unconditionally “honor your father and mother” is an example of something in the Bible that is definitely wrong, and a mistake.

We hear of http://blog.au.org/tag/ten-commandments/">those who want to display the Ten Commandments in public places. Anybody who favors displaying the Ten Commandments in public places might just as well tell me to my face that it was my duty and obligation to meekly submit to and gratefully accept the abuse from my dad which came in the guise of “loving” rebukes and scoldings.

If anything there should be a commandment for parents to treat their children with dignity and respect, so that the children might come to treat others with dignity and respect.

Even though I am not a Christian any more, I am also not an atheist. I feel that there are reasons for considering that the idea of a God or Creator, or some reality or intelligence higher and greater than ourselves, while not necessarily a foregone conclusion, is at least not absurd or ridiculous. I would consider myself to be a Deist, and just on the believing side of agnostic. Deists do not accept any alleged revelations from God, such as the Bible or the Koran, to actually be such, and I am with them about that.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

76. Wow, Mike. Very well written account of your experience.

My parents raised me Presbyterian, but were not real serious about it. They did not worry about being saved. The church was like a social club and the people were educated and believed in evolution.

Near the end of their lives they became atheist and decided there was nothing after this life.
And they were down with it. They were happy, for which I am glad. :D

My BF's son has gone to the UU church but he is hung up on the "covenant". The UU congregations covenant to support the seven principles. When you join as a member, you sign the membership rolls, but there is no creedal test. He was raised as a fundie which is why BF left his mother and got the hell outta Oklahoma. He couldn't take all-Jeebus-all-the-time.

BF's son said he was a Unitarian, and he thinks that makes him liberal, but he still goes to a fundie church. Since he was worried about the covenant, I asked him which of the 7 principles of UUism he objected to. The first one is "The inherent worth and dignity of every person".

I suspect he wants to be part of the saved so he can point fingers at the unsaved, but he has not admitted it.

However, if he becomes a Universalist (universal salvation) as well as a Unitarian, then he can be a christian and be what the Unitarian Universalists started out as in the 19th century. Now they have deists, atheists, agnostics, pagans and the confused.