Churchgoers more likely to back torture, survey finds

[sabra]

Source: CNN

WASHINGTON (CNN) — The more often Americans go to church, the more likely they are to support the torture of suspected terrorists, according to a new analysis.

More than half of people who attend services at least once a week — 54 percent — said the use of torture against suspected terrorists is “often” or “sometimes” justified. Only 42 percent of people who “seldom or never” go to services agreed, according the analysis released Wednesday by the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life.

White evangelical Protestants were the religious group most likely to say torture is often or sometimes justified — more than 6 in 10 supported it. People unaffiliated with any religious organization were least likely to back it. Only 4 in 10 of them did.

The analysis is based on a Pew Research Center survey of 742 American adults conducted April 14-21. It did not include analysis of groups other than white evangelicals, white non-Hispanic Catholics, white mainline Protestants, and the religiously unaffiliated, because the sample size was too small.


Read more: http://cnnwire.blogs.cnn.com/2009/04/30/churchgoers-more-likely-to-back-torture-survey-finds/

[The Magistrate]

1. Jesus Wept, Sir....

[calimary]

17. Wow. No kidding.

No kidding.

As a lifelong Catholic (yeah, haven't left yet...) I'm just aghast. And most of 'em say they're followers of Jesus Christ the Savior - Who was tortured and murdered for our sins? And Whose extreme sufferings at the hands of His captors most of the world replays and studies in the greatest, grimmest detail every year (and in some cases, year-round)?

You suppose they're assuming if it was good enough for Him, it's good enough for any swarthy-skinned bearded Middle-Eastern contrarian now?

Sir, I'm guessing that Jesus might well still be weeping. Makes me want to do that, too.

[The Magistrate]

43. To Try And Analyze It Rationally, Ma'am

My guess is they feel something along the lines of 'these are bad men, evil men, who deserve hellish treatment'. After all, a solid proportion of these people adhere to sects which place some emphasis on Hell-Fire, and one of the weaknesses of that doctrine is that it amounts to divine approval of torture, since it is claimed by that doctrine the deity consigns a tremendous number of souls to torture eternally. It does not matter that there are a number of scriptures against taking divine prerogatives into one's own hands as a human, some of them such well-known stand-bys as 'Judge not lest ye be judged' and 'Vengeance is Mine sayeth the Lord': the temptation is easily succumbed to by persons convinced of their own righteousness as persons who are saved. This is a group, also, accustomed to accepting without question statements from an authority, and so the long repetition that 'terrorists' are the persons subjected to torture is not examined, but accepted at face value, and gives them the certainty this is done to evil men. A great many people, understandably, are little concerned by the sufferings of those they consider to be evil, and view the sufferings of persons they consider evil to be deserved and just, no matter what those sufferings might be. That this is somewhat far from the best views of Christian precept makes little difference: it is an unhappy fact that, if putting into active practice the reported preachings of Jesus were the test, the entire Christian population of the United States could probably be contained a single high school gymnasium without undue crowding....

"Christianity has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and not tried."

[calimary]

50. Yeah... you make yet another in a continuing series of good points.

As usual, sir. And with the utmost in courtesy, too, I might add!

And your offering here leads me to ponder the whole "I'm SAVED!" canard. One of its biggest proponents was/is george w. bush. I know of so many others like him who loudly and publicly celebrate how they're "SAVED" - which they then somehow translate immediately to "so it really doesn't make a rat's ass difference WHAT I do from here on! 'Cuz I'm STILL SAVED!" It's the "already-forgiven" get-out-of-jail-free card. Allows them to liberate themselves from any responsibility for their actions or thoughts or intentions in the future, no matter how heinous they are. "I'm forgiven." Blank check, 'eh? that's something that I as a Catholic have always had a wee bit of difficulty with. But then again, I also have trouble with the blanket forgiveness thing, too, in my own life. I keep reminding myself of different situations where I feel compelled to try to forgive somebody who did me dirty in some way and I can't readily do so - even though He forgave everybody who screwed Him over and tortured Him and killed Him in the worst and most agonizing way and in full public view so there was ridicule also. And it's STILL hard for me to forgive some people, even so.

Oh well... just another dilemma...

[The Magistrate]

71. St. Paul, Ma'am, Seems To Have Encountered That Almost From the Beginning

The belief that once saved, one could not sin, formed early, and people have run with it with great enthusiasm at times. Dignified eventually with the name Antinomianism, it has been one of the sturdiest of Christian heresies, and come to be the psychological underpinning of a great many people who believe themselves to be Christians, particularly in the United States. Indeed, the attitude dubbed 'American Exceptionalism' is little more than a secularization of the belief, with the United States standing in as 'one saved', and its social and political arrangements and actions substituting for the moral field of sin and grace. A great many people sincerely believe that, because they are good themselves, whatever they do must necessarily be good as well, since it issues from the goodness inherent to them. Even if some particular thing that they do may look like evil, it really is not, because it is done for good purposes by a person boasting a good heart, and so must partake of the same essential goodness, whatever appearances may suggest to the contrary. This, too, is doubtless one foundation for the support of torture, and not only among church-goers, though it may operate more strongly than the average among that element. If one believes that the motive behind the torture is a good thing, in this case 'protecting America from harm or evil', then a person who shares this widely encountered frame of mind will be inclined to consider the evil of torture only apparent, being redeemed by the good motive behind the act, and the basic goodness of the American performing it, and so rendered into something that is good itself. It is not an easy to task to argue against a person employing this frame of mind, since the contest must quickly move beyond the immediate issue, and become an assault on a world-view that is both deeply held and vastly comforting to the person who holds it.

[calimary]

94. Sir, you are MOST expert at connecting the dots. "American Exceptionalism"!

A tour-de-force post, this is!

[OnyxCollie]

133. It's not exclusive to Christianity or the U.S.

In 2000, a researcher named Slone did a study on Israelis to see who was in support of war. Those who tested high on indices of authoritarianism and (religious) dogmatism were more likely to support war. They also had less anxiety than those who tested low on the same indices.

Torture and kill people for God and everything's gonna be allright.:eyes:

[bullwinkle428]

215. Bingo! Most synagogues (I was raised as a Reform Jew) tend to

have a very pro-military stance these days when it comes to Israel. There seems to be very little sympathy for all of the Palestinians that have lost their lives in recent years, as the result of the actions of the IDF...it's really turned me off from any desire to reconnect spiritually, in the way I was familiar with growing up.

[bullwinkle428]

214. This is EXACTLY why some hardcore fundie (i.e. Baptist-ish) churches

often have multiple American flags all around the outside of the church, and I'm guessing inside as well. I'm uncomfortable with the idea of an American flag on the altar at my girlfriend's church, which is United Methodist...

[The Magistrate]

255. Indeed, Sir: At Any Church But One Of a State Cult, National Ensigns Hardly Seem Appropriate

"Why an omnipotent God needs to go into business with state legislatures is unclear."

[Fumesucker]

72. There's a bumper sticker about that, it's fairly common where I live..

"Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven".

[Wednesdays]

88. That bumper sticker is common everywhere

I've seen it from Maryland to Michigan to Oklahoma to Idaho.

[Bette Noir]

193. I've seen it on the same car as "I don't get mad; I get even."

Made my blood run cold.

[Fumesucker]

220. That is indeed chilling..

But not surprising..

[alterfurz]

229. bumpersticker from Madison WI:

"Please Jesus, protect me from your followers"

[urgk]

262. I remember this one from the early years of the Bush-Cheney war:

"When Jesus said "Love thy neighbor" he probably meant "don't kill them."

[Name removed]

87. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Doremus]

124. To buy more glittery vestments and gold chalices to mesmerize the fools with.

Well said, and unfortunately too true.

[Name removed]

148. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Enthusiast]

163. He is not bigoted.

He has been taught to embrace these misconceptions about Catholics. As a Catholic in a mostly fundy community I see these misconceptions all the time.

Another common misconception is that Catholics "worship Mary". I can remember when I attended Catholic elementary school the nuns teaching us time and again that "Catholics don't worship Mary, they honor her." But, fundies insist Catholics worship Mary. And they will consider no contrary position.

[urgk]

171. Just curious.

Is there a difference between honoring Mary and worshipping her?

And would that difference extend to honoring, say, Buddha, but not worshipping him?

I know there's the danger here of sounding snarky, but I honestly would like to know.

[ecalmosthuman]

195. double post

[ecalmosthuman]

196. Are you serious?

Are you pretending that you don't know the difference between "worship" and "honor?" I honestly would like to know.

Here's some definitions if you really do need it explained:

Worship - to idolize or show unquestioning devotion to

Honor - to respect or to praise

[urgk]

259. I know the difference in the two words, I want to know the difference in practice.

I mean, what are the differences in prayers to Mary and prayers to God? Is it just a matter of rank or degree? Does Mary protect, but not provide? Or is God thanked for the entirety of creation and Mary thanked for her hand in its day to day operations?

More importantly, how does this differ from cultures with Zeus-like presiding Gods and other less-powerful Gods like the Fates?

I'd really like to know.

-----

1. Evening prayer

O my God, at the end of this day I thank you most heartily for all the graces I have received from you. I am sorry that I have not made a better use of them. I am sorry for all the sins I have committed against you. Forgive me, O my God, and graciously protect me this night. Blessed Virgin Mary, my dear heavenly mother, take me under your protection. St. Joseph, my dear guardian angel, and all you saints of God, pray for me. Sweet Jesus, have pity on all poor sinners, and save them from hell. Have mercy on the suffering souls in purgatory.

2. Memorare

Remember, O most gracious Virgin Mary, that never was it known that anyone who fled to thy protection, implored thy help, or sought thy intercession was left unaided. Inspired with this confidence, we turn to thee, O Virgin of virgins, our Mother. To thee we come, before thee we stand, sinful and sorrowful. O Mother of the Word Incarnate, do not despise our petitions, but in thy mercy hear and answer us. Amen.

[urgk]

170. "For Catholics, a Door to Absolution Is Reopened"

"In recent months, dioceses around the world have been offering Catholics a spiritual benefit that fell out of favor decades ago — the indulgence, a sort of amnesty from punishment in the afterlife — and reminding them of the church’s clout in mitigating the wages of sin.

The fact that many Catholics under 50 have never sought one, and never heard of indulgences except in high school European history (Martin Luther denounced the selling of them in 1517 while igniting the Protestant Reformation), simply makes their reintroduction more urgent among church leaders bent on restoring fading traditions of penance in what they see as a self-satisfied world.

“Why are we bringing it back?” asked Bishop Nicholas A. DiMarzio of Brooklyn, who has embraced the move. “Because there is sin in the world.”"

More at http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/10/nyregion/10indulgence.html

[Name removed]

177. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Baby Snooks]

174. Wikipedia?

A Catholic explaining Catholic doctrine using Wikipedia?

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01061a.htm

Some just buy it. In any case, the Catholic Church offers it. "Presto, chango, you're an angel, now off to heaven with you..."

More evil has been committed in the name of Christ by the Catholic Church than any other church within Christianity. That is historical fact. A tradition it has sustained for centuries. And seems intent on maintaining.

[Chemical Bill]

201. .

>More evil has been committed in the name of Christ by the Catholic Church than any other church within Christianity.

That's only because they had a head start....

Bill

[Baby Snooks]

202. How true...

And of course the Protestants always, really, wanted to burn all the Catholics at the stake. Heretics all.

Freud was right. Religion is an indication of mental deficiency if not outright mental illness.

[tocqueville]

242. Protestants condone torture but Catholics are bashed

read the report

"White evangelical Protestants were the religious group most likely to say torture is often or sometimes justified — more than 6 in 10 supported it"

some posts here speak volumes of the hypocricy of some "progressives"...

[Baby Snooks]

249. I did...

I was responding originally to a post by a Catholic who appeared to be taking the "high road" as if there is one when it comes to the real hypocrisy which is Christianity in general.

I keep hearing the word tolerance from all of them. Tolerance for these people. Tolerance for those people. Tolerance is just a word used to cover up intolerance.

In the end, all the followers of the god of Abraham turn to the Bible and do so for one reason. To justify their evil.

Three religions worshipping the same god and yet claiming "their" god is the "real" god while slaughtering each other in "their" god's name. By far the worst of the lot are the Christians.

Thanks, but no thanks.

[tocqueville]

282. agrees in general....

but you must see the Catholic bashing in its reactionary (WASP) context. Kennedy was bashed because he was a catholic. When Evangelicals so dominate the pro-torture Xian crowd, it's maybe not a good idea to go and pick on Catholics.

[olegramps]

153. I believe that you are a bit over the top and not well informed about Catholicism.

"Disgusting lot the Catholics." Well I have known many Catholics that are decent, law abiding, generous people.

[Name removed]

179. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

230. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[GliderGuider]

156. I think the word you're looking for is "indulgence", not absolution

From Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indulgence ):

An indulgence, in Roman Catholic theology, is the full or partial remission of temporal punishment due for sins which have already been forgiven.

and:

The later Middle Ages saw the growth of considerable abuses, such as the unrestricted sale of indulgences by professional "pardoners"<3> (quaestores in Latin), who were sent to collect contributions to the project. In many cases the preaching of these, out of ignorance or shrewdness, went far beyond dogmatic teachings; some of them even dared to promise that the damned would be released from hell. Permission began to be granted to Catholic kings and princes, particularly on the occasion of Crusades, to retain for themselves a rather considerable part of the alms collected for the gaining of indulgences. The most well-known and debated question is the indulgence granted for building the new St. Peter's Basilica in Rome.<30>

The Fourth Lateran Council (1215) suppressed some abuses connected with indulgences, spelling out, for example, that only a one-year indulgence would be granted for the consecration of churches and no more than a 40-days indulgence for other occasions. The Council also stated that "Catholics who have girded themselves with the cross for the extermination of the heretics, shall enjoy the indulgences and privileges granted to those who go in defense of the Holy Land."<32>

But very soon these limits were widely exceeded. In fact, false documents were circulated with indulgences surpassing all bounds: indulgences of hundreds or even thousands of years.<30> In 1392, more than a century before Martin Luther published the 95 Theses, Pope Boniface IX wrote to the Bishop of Ferrara condemning the practice of certain members of religious orders who falsely claimed that they were authorized by the pope to forgive all sorts of sins, and exacted money from the simple-minded among the faithful by promising them perpetual happiness in this world and eternal glory in the next.<33>

[Doc Martin]

135. Another quote in the spirit of the one you offered

Ah! what a divine religion might be found out if charity
were really made the principle of it instead of faith.~ Shelley

[tavalon]

103. If it was good enough for Jesus then it's good enough for me!

Sung to the tune, Old Time Religion.

Sheeple are taught not to think, just to follow the rules of their congregation and their God and to ignore when these things seem to be contradictory. I left the Baptist Church many years ago because I was going to go ballistic if I heard that I had to take it on faith and that I thought too much.

[Blaq Dem]

141. Wasn't Jesus tortured on the cross?

If I'm not mistaken...

[tavalon]

208. Yeah, that's what I was referring to

[EFerrari]

104. Gives a whole new meaning to "do this in memory of me", doesn't it?

I was raised in the liberation tradition although no one called it that at the time. It's hard to square the congregation I knew with THIS.

[Stellabella]

77. Boy, are you right.

Looks like these people are being fed the wrong message in church.

Or maybe they're just hateful little souls who don't like to think much.

[Joe Bacon]

176. Not according to American Christians!

because their Ayn Randian Jesus is a bad mother hush your mouth Rambo who mows down anyone who gets in his way! American Christians talk the Jesus talk, but they walk the Ayn Rand Walk.

[workinclasszero]

183. Him and me.

The worst disaster in my lifetime has been the hijacking of Christianity by republican right wing fascists.

Jesus rejected politics to the bitter disappointment of many of His followers. He paid his taxes and said render unto Cesar what is Ceaser's...

The so-called christian right are modern day Pharisee's, holier than thou, and if you don't agree with their every law you are condemned to hell and worthy of torture even.

It was the biggest error in Christianity to get wrapped up with rethuglicans. Now when many people hear about Jesus, all they see are the haters and champions of the rich like Limbaugh, Bush, Chaney, DeLay, Bachman and Palin.

American traitors like Governor Rick Perry are the face of American Christianty now, God help us all.

[OnionPatch]

186. Modern Day Pharisees----isn't that the truth!

This is how I always refer to them. It's amazing they can't see it in themselves although they're suppose to be such Bible experts.

[get the red out]

2. Religion is about anger and hate anymore

And people sometimes think I am an extremist for detecting that.

[kestrel91316]

15. The thing is, it isn't. Or doesn't have to be. I went to a local Episcopal

church on Easter for the first time, and they are pretty liberal, and don't seem to be the sorts AT ALL to approve of torture. Same for Unitarians, and the peace churches like Mennonites and Quakers.

I think bible-beaters like Southern Baptists and Pentecostals and unaffiliated "Christians" are much more the type to go for torture. Even the Presbyterian church, which I was nominally raised in, seems fairly conservative and its mambers would probably go for torture.

[Patiod]

190. You beat me to it - nothing is black and white

Many church folk are actively working against torture (glad you mentioned we Quakers - the American Friends Service Committee is hardly a pro-torture lobby)

On the other hand, I'm not surprised by these finding either.

Just think it's important to pointt out that many of us are using our churches as a vehicles to move for a better world. And that there have been and are people in even the most regressive churches like the Catholics who are dedicated to peace and social justice, from Dorothy Day to the Berigan brothers and Agnes Bauerlein.

[JDPriestly]

20. Religious people tend to be fearful. That's probably why they

cling to dogmatic religious ideas.

Anger and hate, of course, grow out of fear.

[Doremus]

125. My thought also. More devout = more afraid. n/t

[Mithreal]

147. If everlasting torture works for god it must be good.

Jesus tortured on Earth, the unsaved eternally tortured in hell... Either accept Jesus' torture or be tortured yourself in the afterlife.

Christians worship torture just won't admit it. It gives quite a bit of comfort to those who expect bad things to happen to bad people too.

Torture is just tough love.

Is the crucifix fetish anything but worship of torture?

[AlbertCat]

192. Religion is about anger and hate anymore

What the hell does that mean? It's not even coherent English.

Religion has always been about hate....except maybe Buddhism. The 10 Commandments may say "thou shalt not kill" but that means "Thou shalt not kill other Jews" because they proceed to kill every living thing they can in the rest of the book.

[konnichi wa]

3. Does that surprise anyone? They get off on stuff like this

[glinda]

106. Exactly. They all have persecution complexes for the most part.

[liberal N proud]

4. If the Roman soldiers hadn't tortured Jesus Christ...

They might not have a religion.

This does not surprise me, yet it makes no sense, people who follow the teachings of a pacifist are the ones who support violent wars and torture.

:shrug:

[create.peace]

5. cha-ching!!! nt

[JDPriestly]

23. The fundamentalist Christian beliefs today have little to do with the

teachings of Jesus. Jesus would never approve of torture.

[kiranon]

216. Agree. These results are so sad. What an indictment of religion.

What a lot of work to do for those who do not believe in torture whether they are religious or not to change attitudes and raise the level of awareness re torture and it should not be done.

[Liberal Veteran]

76. If the Roman soldiers hadn't tortured Jesus Christ....

...Mel Gibson's snuff flick would have been pointless.

[Qutzupalotl]

110. Maybe they sat through too many showings of the Mel Gibson movie

and became desensitized.

[sui generis]

6. go figure

torture is inherent to the concept of expiation for "all our sins". Even the literary arcana of hell is crawling with depictions of (oddly) the devil punishing the evil with gruesome physical acts.

If one wears the symbol of execution, gets misty eyed at the idea of a noble philosopher being tortured to death "for our sins", and is forced to endure church many times a year, torture is probably pretty passe.

[JDPriestly]

45. Those pictures have nothing to do with the teachings of Jesus.

I recently read an article in a Unitarian magazine stating that the author had studied early Christian art and found that the bloody emphasis on the crucifixion and suffering of Jesus began long after the first Christians met and began to worship together.

Christianity was originally a religion of joy and communality.

[sui generis]

51. yes in the ecclesiastical sense

the original greek meaning of the word. But like any idea that enraptures the heart and mind, it was also a basis for a form of cultural tribalism, extending to controlling reproductive rights and getting rid of or shunning infertile, non-nubile and non-offspring producing pairings.

In short, the second it stopped being a philosophy and became a religion it became as much a cult of the high priest as monarchy is a cult of the high king.

[JaneQPublic]

7. What is waterboarding, after all, but merely "extreme baptism"?

:sarcasm:

[Critters2]

121. LOL!

"Extreme baptism"! :rofl:

[myrna minx]

184. OMG. "Coming up on FOX: Extreme Baptism"

:spray:

[Arugula Latte]

238. Followed by "When Baptists Attack!"

[stopbush]

8. That's not surprising.

Religious beliefs are based on pure fantasy, as is the belief that "torture works." Is it any wonder that people who are predisposed to thinking fantasy is reality when it comes to illusion-ary issues like "god" apply the same standard to real issues such as torture?

[SemperEadem]

67. Hmmm.. torture didn't work on Jesus

so why would they believe it would work on mere mortals?

[Wednesdays]

95. Torture didn't work on ANYONE the religious people hold dear

Here's part of a review on a film about Joan of Arc:

There is a scene where Joan is taken to the torture chamber. We are shown the various barbaric devices that were used to get the "truth" out of people. The rack, the spiked wheel and, interestingly...funnels.

Yes, waterboarding! That top-secret torture technique that, now that the torture memos have been released, will allow al Qaida to know what we're going to do them. Wrong! They were doing it in the 15th century - it is not news to anyone.

As the spiked wheel spins faster and faster, Joan faints dead away. It is this fear of torture that makes her sign a false confession. She later recants this confession and is sent to her death at the stake.

Moral of the story: Torture didn't work then and it doesn't work now.

http://open.salon.com/blog/jeanette_d/2009/04/22/the_passion_of_joan_no_not_joan_walsh

[stopbush]

248. How did it not work on Jesus?

In one gospel account, he stays pretty much quiet. In another account, he answers in a way that allows the court to convict him of the crime of blasphemy.

[tomm2thumbs]

9. has something to do with the 'burning Bush' and turning waterboarding into wine

I guess the other side feels the same way - like Christians to the lions, it's all part of a day's work

[AndyA]

10. Apparently church goers aren't getting the message.

Or, the message they're being given is the wrong one.

I'm pretty sure Jesus wouldn't approve of torture. There's a disconnect somewhere with the "let's get drunk on Friday night and pick up a whore but go to church on Sunday with the wife and kids and repent our sins" crowd.

[FiveGoodMen]

18. With all their praying, shouldn't Jesus be talking to them about this?

They'll tell you that god speaks to them in their hearts.

Well either he doesn't or they're not listening or their god is a real bastard.

[No Elephants]

189. Jesus spoke about this a long time ago. They ain't listening.

[MinneapolisMatt]

11. WTF?

ugh ugh ugh!

[Egnever]

78. That about sums it up

[sinkingfeeling]

12. That makes me proud to be a non-believer.

[atreides1]

21. I Believe

I just don't go to church.

[rpannier]

145. and not part of the 40%

Poll said 40% of those who don't attend Church think it is appropriate

[spiritual_gunfighter]

150. Me too

When I read this today, it didn't surprise me in the least. The foundation of their religion is fear, and isn't what the Bush administration sanction based on fear as well?

[HopeHoops]

13. "NOOO-body expects the Spanish Inquisition!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gldlyTjXk9A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSe38dzJYkY&feature=related

[Cha]

14. Just as I suspected and

why is that? Hypocricy at its most blatant.

[nichomachus]

16. And support for Prop H8 in CA was directly related to church attendance

Thus putting another nail in the coffin of the argument that religion is good for society.

[ConcernedCanuk]

19. LOL - sadly - I already knew that

.
.
.

"religious" people are the most violent sector of our species.

I'm talking about those that feel it necessary to impose their beliefs on others,

not those that live by their own beliefs in privacy.

Wait till the bugs and all the other species get "religion"

We'll be the first species they will eradicate, regardless of our "religion".

If there is ONE species disappearance that would improve the longevity of the planet Earth

It is us

[Bette Noir]

22. There's something seriously wrong with these people.

[bdamomma]

47. they are wired all wrong.

[MineralMan]

24. Well, Jebus said, in

Matthew 114

22 Go out into the world and pour water on the heads of the unbeliever, that he may know me.
23 If he will not confess, then thou shalt tie him to a wall and call your dogs
24 To threaten to bite his privy member.
25. If he then confesses belief, you may kill him,
26. That he doth not stray.

That part's only in the super-secret Bibble...the one you don't get to see. :sarcasm:

[go west young man]

52. is that in King James "The waterboarder" version?

or King John the draw and quarterer version , or the Inquisitors burning at the stake version, or St. Jerome rack version?

[MineralMan]

60. Well, all of those are based on the same source documents,

so it's hard to say. :bounce:

[Canuckistanian]

25. And as an atheist, they call ME "amoral"

This is exactly the reason I run screaming from any organized religion.

Jesus would indeed weep.

[AtheistCrusader]

33. Infuriating isn't it.

Even the germans in WWII claimed 'gott mit uns'. But oh no, we're the ones with 'no basis for moral authority'.

:wtf:

[Budgies Revenge]

26. what it might be reflecting

as hypocritical as it is, is that the hardcore religious are more likely to view other groups as deserving of torture because they are heathens, godless, etc. In other words, our homegrown fundamentalists are just as whacked out as any other group of fundamentalists.

[Kolesar]

32. So torturing Tim McVeigh or abortion-clinic-bombers would not be so well received?

[Budgies Revenge]

40. going off of some of the things I've heard

some of the religious nuts around here say, that would be true.

[Fumesucker]

27. Matthew 25:

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.



I've always thought a lot of "Christians" would hate and despise Jesus, now I know they would torture him for sure.

[MineralMan]

36. The Christians who approve of torture do not read

Matthew. Their churches do not teach it. They are actually Paulists, rather than Christians. If they read Matthew, and understood it, they could not endorse what they endorse.

If you have not done so, it is a eye-opening exercise to visit a fundamentalist church for a few services and see what part of the New Testament is being taught.

[Fumesucker]

41. For reasons too complicated to go into here..

I grew up in both the Episcopal and the Southern Baptist churches..

There is a stark difference between those two congregations..

And I know exactly what you mean by Paulists.

[MineralMan]

56. The differences are many between the

fundamentalist churches and all the old mainstream protestant churches. I grew up in a Presbyterian church, where the emphasis was primarily on the gospels, with a sojourn into Paul's letters from time to time, where they reinforced the gospels.

In the fundamentalist churches I have attended as a study, it's just the reverse. Paul's letters and Revelation are the primary texts, with brief sojourns into the Gospels as necessary. Little time is spent in Matthew, because that book holds the contradictory stuff attributed to Jesus...contradictory to the ugliness portrayed elsewhere in the NT.

The fundamentalist churches claim to be "Bible-believing" churches, but they tend to believe just the parts that reinforce their ugly sentiments about everyone but themselves.

They don't like the Mormons and don't think all that much of Catholics, except for the anti-abortion stuff. They consider the mainline protestant churches to be "soft" and other Christian sects, like the Jehovah's Witnesses to be cults.

Overall, they're an ugly, uneducated, bigoted bunch, and their teachings reinforce those "values."

[Enthusiast]

155. I get the same impression that you do,

MineralMan. And they do not consider Catholics Christians.

[closeupready]

54. Of course they don't read Matthew. There wouldn't be Xtian 'get rich quick' televangelists

if they did. :crazy:

[MineralMan]

58. Oh, I'm not talking about the get rich quick mega churches.

They're something altogether different. I'm talking about the ugly fundamentalcase churches, for whom bigotry, racism, and hatred are the main "values."

[closeupready]

68. Oh, of course. You are totally right.

n/t

[timtom]

167. NOW you are making sense.

And I concur.

[Deep13]

198. That meme is not supported by historical fact.

The letters of Paul have a far better claim to being the foundational documents of Christianity than the gospels do. The gospels were written decades after the fact (perhaps a century since we really don't know when JC was supposed to have lived) and by non-witnesses.

[DeSwiss]

281. I believe that your contention....

... of Paul's writings being the foundational documents of this wretched religion, is what is not supported by the facts here.

This point is particularly driven home when one considers the position that "since we really don't know when JC was supposed to have lived" -- that it negates anyone of making a valid a claim to being more or less authentic than the other.

The reality is that we have only the word of those with a vested interest for a belief in Christianity as the so-called "authoritative sources" as to the validity of these writings. Many stories found within of which, are nothing more than direct ripoffs of more ancient myths. Not to mention the mistaken and error-prone translations, and the purposeful editing made by those seeking to create a religion from scratch. Such as those primates of the early church, and of course Constantine without whom none of this would be discussed now. This was a political enterprise from the start.

- As Napoleon said: "religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich....."

[Joe Bacon]

178. The Gospel according to St. Ayn Rand:

Republicans talk the Jesus talk BUT they ALL walk the Ayn Rand Walk. They mutated Jesus into Je$u$ and added a couple more chapters to their Bi-BULL named "The Fountainhead" and "Atlas Shurgged".

And lets remember those RepubliCON Je$u$ talking points!

I was hungry and you told me to get off my "lazy ass" and work. You didn't care that I was elderly, disabled or orphaned.

I was thirsty and you said the "invisible hand" of the free market would stimulate an entrepreneur to invest in a beverage company that would relieve my thirst.

I was a stranger and you despised me because of the color of my skin or I was gay or lesbian.

I was naked and you had me arrested for lewdness.

I was ill and you told me that I should have bought a better health insurance policy, even though nobody would sell me a policy because of my pre-existing condition

I was in prison and you cheered because it was my third strike.

That's what RepulbiCONs believe. That's NOT what I believe!

[Fumesucker]

223. Nice post.. Thanks n/t

[SpookyCat]

247. Nice job!

I often use that event when I argue with Christians. Amazing that I, as an athiest, have to tell them what their Messaih said.

If you don't mind, I'm going to save that for when it's needed. I have never summed it up so well.

Full credit given, of course.

[stopbush]

251. Wan't it gentle Jesus, meek and mild who condemns unbelievers to the torture

of eternal hellfire?

Here's what those who "preach Matthew" need to preach:

13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

[madmom]

28. Well that knocks their "no morals without religion" theory all to hell doesn't it.

[pmorlan1]

29. Info on WSJ and NYT recently released polls

I have up on my blog two posts about recent polls on torture.

One is on the NBC/Wall Street Journal Poll

http://democracity.blogspot.com/2009/04/nbcwall-street-journal-poll-torture.html

The other is the New York Times/CBS News Poll

http://democracity.blogspot.com/2009/04/new-york-timescbs-news-poll-torture.html

Both polls have some interesting information in them.

[Wednesdays]

97. Yeah, intersting all right. It shows we have a long way to go

Even now, there's not really a groundswell of people clamoring for an investigation.

It's easy to see why:

"Where do you usually get most of your news about what's going on in the world today - from the newspapers, or radio, or television, or the internet, or someplace else?"

60% TV

:banghead:

[pattmarty]

30. I read this, and I'm sitting here saying: Aiegggghhhhhh, Jesus..................

I want to fucking move to another (saner) country.

[Andy823]

31. The same people

Are more likely to be republicans also. I have seen very few people from the right wing religious groups that are against torture. Of course if it had been Obama that allowed torture I am sure they would be calling for "blood", and pointing out how "un-christian" torture is!

[La Lioness Priyanka]

34. jesus would be so proud

[CubicleGuy]

35. I can't help but wonder...

There was a study out not too long ago that stated that one of the big differences between liberals and conservatives was that a lot of things that don't cause a fear reaction in liberals does cause a fear reaction in conservatives.

When your basic mainline church is going to be teaching that you're going straight to Hell in the afterlife if you don't "get right" with God, it would seem to me that this would be a fear response that would be taught to people from their very early ages and on up.

Is it one's level of fear that makes one more likely to be in favor of torturing the "bad guys"?

Ah, here we go: 1 John 4:18-21

18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
19 We love him, because he first loved us.
20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.

I think maybe that particular scripture needs a little more emphasis.

[edbermac]

37. "It's better to lose your skull cap than your skull."

The Inquisition (Let's begin)
The Inquisition (Look out sin)
We have a mission to convert the Jews (Jew, Jew, Jew, Jew, Jew, Jew, Jew)
We're gonna teach them wrong from right.
We're gonna help them see the light
and make an offer that they can't refuse. (That those Jews just can't refuse)
Confess, don't be boring.
Say yes, don't be dull.
A fact you're ignoring:
It's better to lose your skull cap than your skull (oy oy gevalt!)
The Inquisition (what a show)
The Inquisition (here we go)
We know you're wishin' that we'd go away.
But the Inquisition's here and it's here to stay!

"I was sitting in a temple. I was minding my own business.
I was listening to a lovely Hebrew mass.
Then these Papist persons plundered and they throw me in a dungeon and they shove a red hot poker up my ass.
Is that considerate? Is that polite?
And not a tube of Preparation H in sight!"

"I'm sittin' flickin' chickens and I'm lookin' through the pickins' and suddenly these goyim pull down walls.
I didn't even know them and they grabbed my by the scrotum and started playing ping pong with my balls!
Ooh, the agony! Ooh, the shame!
To make my privates public for a game?"

The Inquisition (what a show)
The Inquisition (here we go)
We know you're wishin' that we'd go away.
But the Inquisition's here and it's here to-

"Hey Torquemada, what do you say?"
"I just got back from the Auto-de-fe."
"Auto-de-fe? What's an Auto-de-fe?"
"It's what you oughtn't to do but you do anyway."

Will you convert? "No, no, no, no."
Will you confess? "No, no, no, no."
Will you revert? "No, no, no, no."
Will you say yes? "No, no, no, no!"
Now I asked in a nice way, I said, "Pretty please."
I bent their ears, now I'll work on their knees!

"Hey Torquemada, walk this way.
We got a little game that you might wanna play,
so pull that handle, try your luck."
"Who knows, Toq, you might win a buck!"

"How we doin', any converts today?"
"Not a one, nay, nay, nay."
"We flattened their fingers, we branded their buns!
Nothing is working! Send in the nuns!"

The Inquisition, what a show.
The Inquisition, here we go.
We know you're wishin' that we'd go away!
So all you Muslims and you Jews
We got big news for all of yous:
You'd better change your point of views TODAY!
'Cause the Inquisition's here and it's here to stay!

[Blue_Tires]

63. YES!

greatest scene from the greatest movie!!

[Baby Snooks]

74. Mel Brooks is proof positive there is a god....

Just not the god of Abraham who obviously threw a rock at him in the desert. Hopefully next time he won't miss...

[Bluenorthwest]

38. Of course

they are what they are.

[Oak2004]

39. A great many people are attracted to religion because it offers them a set of absolute rules

and an all powerful cop/judge/jury/executioner who will destroy the rulebreakers. They're not attracted to anything else -- certainly not to anything which might contradict their idea of God as a gloating, giggling executioner. Religion can be an authoritarian personality's dream.

It's no wonder that even those of faith are fleeing organized religion.

[Hepburn]

42. WWJT?

Sick RW RR assholes, IMO.

[Ignis]

57. Supply-Side Jesus + Rambo = American Fundies

Sick, sad, and scary.

[Stellabella]

80. Exactly my thought.

[MidwestTransplant]

44. WWJD

[bdamomma]

46. Love your fellow man!! yea sure they do.

:sarcasm:

[Joanne98]

48. NATCH!

[Name removed]

49. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[PfcHammer]

53. honkies got an extra mean bone

[Bonhomme Richard]

55. Once again Authoritarianism is the culprit.

The more "group" religious you are the more you respond to authority. Authority wants to torture therefore they must have a reason so who are we to judge. Question authority? Government, the Church, your boss, the powerful? Not going to happen because once you question anything you begin to question all.
Not surprising at all.

[Alcibiades]

59. Correlation is not causation

It could be that fundie whackjobs have the highest church attendance rates, and also think torture is OK, thereby giving the appearance that church attendance causes the belief that torture is OK.

Hey, wasn't Jesus tortured?

[ncteechur]

61. ding ding

Exactly what I said the other day

[Sultana]

62. Fake-Ass Christians

Excuse me while I :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke:


Dear Father, send em all to hell since they fail to understand the horrible torture your Son endured for their sins!!!

[Richd506]

64. OOOOOOOOOOOOOH THE IRONY

[SemperEadem]

65. and this is a surprise?

Only to someone who has not been observing these counterfeit christians for the last 20 years.

[Name removed]

66. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tocqueville]

243. that's what happens when you can't spell nt

[spoony]

256. How many times are you going to post that?

Aside from you, the only time I've ever heard "dead jew on a stick" was from neo-nazis. Coincidence?

Edit: It's interesting that leftchick gets banned for a picture of Obama about a million times less offensive than that, and you've posted that at least three times in as many days and...what? I'm guessing nothing will be done to you, hope I'm wrong though.

[DebbieCDC]

69. Yeah they're really into that old testament thing aren't they?

:puke:

[Mme. Defarge]

70. Not this Greek Orthodox Christian - n/t

[nxylas]

181. Nor this one

Nice to see another Orthodox DUer :hi:

[Mme. Defarge]

236. Christos Anesti!

[nxylas]

240. Alithos Anesti! n/t

[Taverner]

73. Of course - Religion is as divorced from ethics and morality as you can get

REAL ethics come from reason, not some magic spellbook

[Baby Snooks]

81. You got it...

Give me that old time religion. The old religion. The really old religion that existed in ancient Africa complete with the god who told Adam and Eve that if they couldn't respect the rules they could take their egos the serpent gave them and leave the garden. Which they did.

And Adam and Eve created god in their image. Although really just in Adam's image. Not the other way around. And all these centuries later, man is still creating god in his image. Usually with a checkbook.

Freud was right. Modern religion is nothing more than a neurotic need fulfilled. And if the checkbook is handy, a sociopathic need fulfilled.

I still get quite ill over the minister comparing Ken Lay to Jesus Christ. I guess the minister got some nice checks along the way.

[Wizard777]

75. Some churches have used torture to increase or preserve membership.

Then you have that whole Hell thing. But I find it somewhat comforting that Pope Benedict XVI can envision hell as a place that is empty.

[JDPriestly]

79. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

I guess these "Christians" want to be tortured. There is a name for that kind of person. I think it applies and explains a lot about the last 8 years.

[Vidar]

82. How sad.

[Duer 157099]

83. I just thought of a new bumper sticker: "At Least Jesus Got A Trial"

Yeah? I bet somebody already did it.

[balantz]

84. Do unto others?

http://www.1st-art-gallery.com/thumbnail/93029/1/A-Christian-Martyr-On-The-Cross-$28saint-Julia$29.jpg

[Lydia Leftcoast]

85. But note that even FORTY percent of non-religious people favor torture

There's something seriously wrong with American culture in general.

[rpannier]

144. Agreed

That part seems to be getting less attention

[PassingFair]

86. It's not like churches have a HISTORY of torture or anything.....

:sarcasm:

It's part and parcel of CONTROL.

[Danger Mouse]

89. I am sad and disappointed to hear this of my fellow christians...

but not surprised.

[MetaTrope]

90. Evil is as Evil does

[judesedit]

91. No wonder so many people are leaving the church behind

These holier than thou types are the biggest hypocrites of all. And the most dangerous. They DO NOT represent anything taught by Jesus.

[Ozymanithrax]

92. If God says they're evil, their nature is evil

and torture is their fate.
The evil, after all, are consigned,
to a fiery pit for eternity,
to being water boarded by fire is their fate.

If torture is good enough for God.
Torture is Good enough for the God damned.
God is, after all, a just and beneficent God,
that consigns to an eternity of torture to those,
who do not follow Gods smallest whim.

Pious chruch goers simply follow,
The will of a loving forgiving God.

[Deep13]

199. Bingo nt

[mrs_p]

93. thank god i now go to

opposite church

[irislake]

96. Count me among

the unsurprised.

[LatteLibertine]

98. Hmm

Didn't Frederick Douglass note some of his most brutal owners were self-proclaimed devout Christians?

I think some of this has to do with dehumanizing those that are not within the group, and perhaps won't be "saved".

[jwirr]

99. Not in my church.

[Milspec]

187. Nor in mine

But the Unitarian Universalist is a very progressive church even here in Tulsa

[JerseygirlCT]

267. Nor mine. nt

[Maineman]

100. I think the common thread between religion and willingness to

torture is fear.

[OhioChick]

101. Not This Churchgoer. n/t

[niyad]

102. as gandhi is reported to have observed, "I like your christ. I do not like your christians. they

are so unlike your christ"

[Baby Snooks]

108. Truer words were never spoken...

Two things will save this country. Banning Republicans and banning Christians.

[struggle4progress]

105. Pew isn't showing MOEs for this particular breakdown of the poll but the report

from the same dataset on torture attitudes of D-R-I shows 188 Rs with MOE +/- 8%. In the breakdown for religious groups, the large group has size 174 -- and the unaffiliated group contains only 94. So the MOEs are at least 10% -- and the measured distinctions may be barely outside the MOE. It would be interesting to know the results of a larger sample size, with double breakdown into political affiliation and religious group

http://people-press.org/report/510/public-remains-divided-over-use-of-torture
http://pewresearch.org/pubs/1210/torture-opinion-religious-differences

[condoleeza]

107. Only 42 percent of people who “seldom or never” go to services agreed?

Not a big margin there, IMO, clearly this country is way more fucked up than I ever imagined.

[PassingFair]

169. Wonder what the percentage of just "nevers" was....

very curious about that.

[Name removed]

109. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

111. It'd be good if they specified which churches were being attended...

I know of several churches whose active members are outspokenly horrified by what has happened.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

245. Mine, for instance

n/t

[damntexdem]

112. Hmm, I guess one is less concerned about torture of others, if one endures it oneself every Sunday.

;-)

[AngryOldDem]

113. Not the LEAST surprised at this.

Funny how selective Christian charity can be.

[2Design]

114. well they worship someone who was tortured so maybe it is something they worship n/t

[daleo]

115. Many churchgoers think God is a torturer (think of Hell)

So, this doesn't surprise me.

[ShortnFiery]

116. Why am I getting a flashback of a Mel Brooks Flick?

:silly:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5McSEU48Y8

[JI7]

117. no surprise at all

[IndianaGreen]

118. They all get orgasm reading about Jesus suffering Roman enhanced interrogation techniques

They all love Jesus, but had they met the real Jesus, they would have all hated him as a communist rabble rouser.

[pleah]

119. Not surprised.

K&R

[Frisbee]

120. This just supports my belief...

that on whole, atheists are better people than Christians. Most (not all by any stretch) are hypocrites who believe that going to church on Sunday makes being a dick the rest of the time OK.

[krabigirl]

122. Holy crap! Doesn't surprise me, though. it's very sad.

[madrchsod]

123. here`s an interesting article from pew research on this subject

"religion news,religious leaders praise obama`s directives on torture.."

http://pewforum.org/news/display.php?NewsID=17394


it seems they need to shepherd their flocks to the truth



the orginal pew research 2 page article with charts


http://people-press.org/report/510/public-remains-divided-over-use-of-torture

[w4rma]

126. Sick. Organized religion is full of sick people. (nt)

[cpompilo]

127. How "Christian" of them

I find that disgusting.

[KakistocracyHater]

128. torture it's the Christian thing to do

it's in their morals...:wtf: The Christians who don't support torturing random people on a street should get loud & angry about this

[1776Forever]

129. Exactly why I don't go to "church" anymore. What can one say? What would Christ do? I think not!

:crazy:

[northofdenali]

130. As Ghandi said so eloquently:

"I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. They are so unlike your Christ."

Torture lovers, meet Fairbanks Bible Baptist Church.

[enki23]

131. there's a shocker.

the number's far too high all around. but the fact that a majority of the most religious support torturing their enemies? not at all surprising.

tax the fucking churches.

[mix]

132. an empty faith

[ms liberty]

134. But of course! If it was good enough for Jesus, it should be plenty good for anybody else! n/t

[TankLV]

136. and that SURPRISES anybody?!!!

religious fudie idiots aren't called wack/nut-jobs idiot assholes for nothin', ya know...

[rpannier]

137. Well...That's how the Puritans found all those witches

If it weren't for torture they'd never had found one of 'em

[NoodleyAppendage]

138. Who's Butt Would Jesus Shove the Hot Poker Up? n/t

WBWJSHPU

J

[undeterred]

139. Nothing like a broad brush religion bashing headline.

Gets around the DU rules, I guess.

[Fumesucker]

146. Reporting truth is "bashing"?

And so what if it is anyway, people who support torture *deserve* to be bashed..

You point the finger at someone else when you really should be looking in the mirror or at your fellow parishioners. It fucking takes a broad brush to cover a damn substantial majority like sixty percent.

Luke 6:41 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but perceivest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

42 Either how canst thou say to thy brother, Brother, let me pull out the mote that is in thine eye, when thou thyself beholdest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see clearly to pull out the mote that is in thy brother's eye.

43 For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

[undeterred]

213. Implying that all churchgoers support torture

is as inflammatory and untrue as saying that all homosexuals are promiscuous.

Do the Christian churchgoers who sponsor a food pantry that feeds 1000 people every week deserve this kind of smear?

How many of the people questioned in this survey actually practice torture?

This sounds like the kind of social science bullshit where people set out to prove a conclusion they've already decided upon.

[Fumesucker]

217. The shoes are uncomfortable, aren't they?

If Christians (or anyone else) support torture then they deserve the smear, no matter what else they may do..

And we wouldn't need food pantries so much if Christians hadn't installed bushie and the Republicans. We both know that not many atheists voted Republican, just go to Free Republic and try to find one.

[undeterred]

219. Broadbrush smearing a whole group of people.

Horseshit when someone does it to the left; "political activism" when the left does it.

[Fumesucker]

222. The only ones being smeared are those who support torture..

Too bad that so many Christians have no moral compass, unless it comes to sex..

But then the more fundamentalist the church the higher the divorce rate, and atheists have the lowest rate of all.

[Lorien]

233. It doesn't say "all", it says "more likely to". There's a big difference there

Hey, the Mennonite Church that my grandparents were involved with was as Christian as could be; they fed the poor, gave clothes and food to the homeless, sponsored relief missions (without the conversion crap) to areas abroad hit by natural disasters, war and famine. And they were far more liberal in their politics than most DUers are. However, mainstream "Christian" religions like the Southern Baptists aren't "Christian" in the least; they believe that Jesus died for their sins so they can now do whatever they damn well please. I've actually been told by Baptists "we can't do as Jesus would have done because He was perfect and no person can ever be like that, so we shouldn't try". :crazy:

[urgk]

270. Your parallel...well...isn't.

It doesn't imply anything. It states explicitly that churchgoers are more likely to support torture.

"Implying that all churchgoers support torture Posted by undeterred is as inflammatory and untrue as saying that all homosexuals are promiscuous. "

That would be the equivalent of a survey that explicitly stated that homosexuals are more likely to support promiscuity as a concept.

"Do the Christian churchgoers who sponsor a food pantry that feeds 1000 people every week deserve this kind of smear?"

No. Nor does the OP say that they should be accused. According to the article, if you had 400 churches with wholly innocent, anti-torture membership, there would be 600 more filled with entirely pro torture congregations.

I mean, if, according to a survey, we Americans were shown to be more likely to be undereducated and obese, it wouldn't suggest all Americans were uneducated and obese. That's just silly.

I don't necessarily accept any survey 100% because I know how the framing of the questions and the format of the survey can affect the outcome, but these conclusions aren't warranted by the article.

[urgk]

164. Are there DU rules against reporting the findings of a survey?

Because it doesn't look like the OP has done anything other than link to and cite a news item.

If a survey found that some surprising number of members of an organization I gave money to supported a cause that appeared to be against the tenets of that organization, I'd certainly be curious about it. Wouldn't you?

[undeterred]

211. "Churchgoers" is a broad brush category.

Churches and churchgoers constitute as politically and ethically diverse a group of people as any group on earth. The headline is a broadbrush bash against all churchgoers.

[urgk]

260. But, if they found statistical differences between...

church-goers and non-church-goers, the headline is a fact, right? The survey itself may be flawed (I, myself would like to see the actual questions presented by any given survey before I'm likely to give 100% credence to the results), but the headline is reporting, not judging the results.

[undeterred]

218. We all pay taxes to the US government, which supported torture

during the Bush administration. Expressions of outrage are appropriately directed towards those who authorized and implemented this policy. The headline is a broadbrush smear attempting to divert the attention of the gullible.

[urgk]

261. This isn't an example of outrage directed at anybody.

The study simply says church-goers are more likely to support torture.

It may, indeed, be true.

[spoony]

257. No shit, and the replies are so gleefully hateful

you wonder who the sicker people really are, that bunch of RWers who go to church and support torture, or the posters who happily pile on with their insidious bigotry. Did you see the "dead jew on a stick" hate speech above?

[undeterred]

274. The bigotry and hatred of the left that shows up in

the religion bashing threads is as narrow-minded, disgusting, and hateful as the bigotry and hatred of the right.

[urgk]

276. Seems like a broad-brush stroke to imply that this thread is "religion bashing."n/t

[varkam]

278. I think your gripe would be with either CNN or the Pew Forum - not the OP.

[politicalmajority]

140. I Wanna Hear What Carrie Prejean Has to Say about Torture

I am very interested.

[Boudica the Lyoness]

142. Same with horse slaughter.

I own two mustangs and I blog about them. I have been noticing the religious church going mustang owners think sending horses to the slaughter house is the perfect solution for over population.
They are also Republicans.

I don't get it because they seem to love their own horses, yet would be fine about seeing their still wild, brothers and sisters get the final solution.

[Juche]

143. Mob rule

80% of pharisees and early Romans thought christians should be tortured. So that makes it ok. Just as long as we hit the 51% figure.

[Autonomy]

149. Reply to the majority of previous replies:

I've never read such a wretched, disgusting, foul stream of vomit on this website. This is the first time I have felt disgusted by this website and it's members.

On edit: perhaps revulsion is the word I am looking. I feel compassion mixed with revulsion, like one would for a drunk lying in his own piss and vomit, for many of the above posters.

[Name removed]

157. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Occulus]

228. So, no complaints about the survey's findings, then?

I see.

[spoony]

258. Certainly isn't the first time I've felt that!

Outright hatred of the religious is tolerated by DU unless you heckle them to lock particularly flaming threads.

[Name removed]

151. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[olegramps]

152. They shouldn't object to Jesus being tortured.

Pontius Pilate was only doing his duty is protecting the Roman Empire from an insurrection. His use of torture was justified in obtaining important information concerning those unruly Jews that were continuously plotting against the government. He had spies, Judas Iscariot for example, just like the FBI that could infiltrate these dangerous groups and alert the authorities before they could carry out one of their nefarious plots. What could be more scary than some rabble-rouser claiming he was a King. Clearly, he was justified in using torture.

[and-justice-for-all]

154. Not surpised in the least to read this....

fundi nuts, PRO-Torture!?? who would have thunk it?..To them, they are at war yet again, with Islam and the rest of the world for that matter. If you are not just like them, they hate you and want to change you so you can be part of their collective.

Now are all believes like that? No, the are not. But, then again the ones I know do not attend church regularly either. One is Episcopal and the other is nondenominational. Now the Pentecostal I know, has told me he thinks we should have nuked Iraq...yes indeed he did, talk about xtian love.

[azurnoir]

158. Support for terror suspect torture differs among the faithful

Source: CNN

More than half of people who attend services at least once a week -- 54 percent -- said the use of torture against suspected terrorists is "often" or "sometimes" justified. Only 42 percent of people who "seldom or never" go to services agreed, according to the analysis released Wednesday by the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life.

White evangelical Protestants were the religious group most likely to say torture is often or sometimes justified -- more than six in 10 supported it. People unaffiliated with any religious organization were least likely to back it. Only four in 10 of them did.



Read more: http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/04/30/religion.torture/index.html?eref=rss_topstories

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

159. That's fucked up.

I don't think Jesus would approve.

[mrs_p]

160. same story posted awhile ago??

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x3856029

[BobTheSubgenius]

161. WHHHHAAAAAATTTTTTT?????

You have GOT to be kidding. Who are these people?

[NM Independent]

162. Who would Jesus torture, again? n/t

[fascisthunter]

225. way to misinterpret one's faith

these people are lost. I highly doubt Jesus would condone such actions, nevermind thoughts. Hiding behind Jesus won't save these people... they are seriously messed up.

[tclambert]

165. You see, Jesus was tortured, but He could have stopped it, therefore He must be for it.

I mean, since He was, I mean IS, God and all, He could have thrown lightning bolts at all those Romans and Pharisees, all the while shouting, "You want to see pain? I'll show you sinners some real pain!" That's what Rambo Jesus would have done. But since the New Testament Jesus accepted flogging and crucifixion, He must be OK with torture.

By the way, did the torture make Jesus confess?

[urgk]

168. Whoa there.

God didn't stand by and let torture happen. No, no, no. He designed it that way. At least if he is omniscient and the prime mover.

I mean think about it: When God set up His universe, when He chose the eventuality of human behavior in all its complexities with His foreknowledge of all of its outcomes, He decided that the best way to establish fellowship with the people He had designed was to have a "Christ" happen. And for that Christ to be crucified.

God's omniscience and prime push would mean that even with a policy of real-time non-interference, he knew in advance which particles would hurtle through space (either several billion or just a few thousand years, depending on your views), which would land in Mary, and which would eventually find themselves staring down at Roman soldiers who were poking them with spears.

The same goes for the atoms in the neurons of the waterboarders. And the knives of the terrorist be-headers.

By my reckoning, God is either: A) both omniscient and the prime mover and, therefore, the direct cause of torture or B) not omniscient or not the prime mover.

[JNelson6563]

166. No surprise here, ever read the bible?

Violence is very biblical.

Julie

[urgk]

172. "ever read the bible?"

Now THAT would be an interesting poll of Christians.

[JNelson6563]

204. Indeed it would be.

And those who actually had read and found it "enlightened" would, IMO, be most prone to think torture of those who they disagreed wtih a good idea.

Julie

[Soylent Brice]

173. filed under "i could've told you that".

[mdmc]

175. I guess we would all be doomed to hell if the Romans didn't torture Christ

:shrug:

[zanne]

180. We can file this under "Things we always suspected"......nt

[DemoTex]

182. What the Bible says about torture (read it and weep).

What the Bible says about Torture:

Sometimes you just need to beat people for their own good.

The blueness of a wound cleanseth away evil: so do stripes the inward parts of the belly. Proverbs 20:30

Some people should be beaten as as a punishment for their crimes.

And it shall be, if the wicked man be worthy to be beaten, that the judge shall cause him to lie down, and to be beaten. Deuteronomy 25:2

It's always a good idea to beat fools. Beat them whenever you find them.

A fool's lips enter into contention, and his mouth calleth for strokes. Proverbs 18:6

Judgments are prepared for scorners, and stripes for the back of fools. Proverbs 19:29

A whip for the horse, a bridle for the ass, and a rod for the fool's back. Proverbs 26:3

And slaves may be beaten, as long they survive for at least a day or two after the beating.

If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property. Exodus 21:20-21

Beating your children is a sure sign of parental love.

He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes. Proverbs 13:24

And don't stop just because they cry.

Chasten thy son while there is hope, and let not thy soul spare for his crying. Proverbs 19:18

Beating your children will make them less foolish.

Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him. Proverbs 22:15

The rod and reproof give wisdom: but a child left to himself bringeth his mother to shame. Proverbs 29:15

So beat them hard and often. Don't worry about hurting them. You may break a few bones and cause some brain damage, but it isn't going to kill them. And even if it does, they'll be better off. They'll thank you in heaven for beating the hell out of them.

Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die. Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell. Proverbs 23:13-14

The Bible has many examples of a good and proper use of torture.

For example, David was "a man after God's own heart" (1 Samuel 13:14, Acts 13:22) and "did what was right in the sight of the Lord ... save only in the matter of Uriah the Hittite" (1 Kings 15:5). Since he tortured the inhabitants of several cities, torture (at least in certain situations) must be okay with God.


And he brought forth the people that were therein, and put them under saws, and under harrows of iron, and under axes of iron, and made them pass through the brick-kiln: and thus did he unto all the cities of the children of Ammon. 2 Samuel 12:31

And he brought out the people that were in it, and cut them with saws, and with harrows of iron, and with axes. Even so dealt David with all the cities of the children of Ammon. 1 Chronicles 20:3

Nehemiah, who is considered a good leader in the Bible, beat people and pulled out their hair.

And I contended with them, and cursed them, and smote certain of them, and plucked off their hair, and made them swear by God, saying, Ye shall not give your daughters unto their sons, nor take their daughters unto your sons, or for yourselves. Nehemiah 13:25

At times, Jesus seemed to look favorably on torture.

In his parables, for example, Jesus often spoke of torturing his enemies.

And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors. Matthew 18:34

And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless. Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 22:12-13

The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 24:50-51

The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. Luke 12:46-48

The devils expected Jesus to torture them. (And Jesus didn't deny that he planned to do so.)

And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time? Matthew 8:29

Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not. Mark 5

What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God most high? I beseech thee, torment me not. Luke 8:28

God uses a rod to beat those who disobey his commandments.

If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments; Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.Psalm 89:31-2

At the end of the world, God will torture people until they want to die. But he will not let them die so that he can continue to torture them.

And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man. And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them. Revelation 9:5-6

But the ultimate use of torture, a torture a greater than which can not be conceived, is hell.

The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 13:41-42

If thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire. Matthew 18:8-9

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels. Matthew 25:41

...hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. Mark 9:43-48

And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. Luke 16:22-24

The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever. Revelation 14:10-11

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/says_about/torture.html

[dccrossman]

185. K&R Here's the Pew link

Was really important to me to provide the Pew Research link when forwarding this on:

http://pewforum.org/docs/?DocID=156

Enjoy!

[No Elephants]

188. Those most likely to support George W. Bush are most likely to support torture. Film at 11.

[Shireling]

191. You should be punished!

It's that "Devil with the pitch fork" mentality!

[Raksha]

194. WTF??? I saw this headline and my jaw dropped...

I'm glad it's attached to my head, because otherwise it would have hit the keyboard! And I haven't even read the article yet. If that isn't a one-line indictment of what passes for "religion" in this country, I don't know what is!!!

Sheesh...NO WONDER people are leaving the establishment churches in droves! They no longer fulfill their most basic function of teaching people right from wrong. Instead of being part of the solution, they are part of the problem...and everybody KNOWS it!

[Bob3]

197. Considering The Inquistion, the witch Hunts and the like.

this can not be a shock to anybody.

[Raksha]

200. K & R - everyone should read this,

and know just how far our country has degenerated in recent years. Although come to think of it, this problem isn't a "recent" development at all. Which is even more depressing, but there it is.

[ananda]

203. Shades of Torquemada!

nt

[rcrush]

205. Is it cause they watch Passion of the Christ 5 times a day?

[stanwyck]

209. A coworker refers to "Passion" as torture-porn

and I do think it's addictive to many people who have an unsettling erotic compulsion towards torture.
Plus, there are shows like "24" which portray torture as amazingly effective at stopping annihilation. Torture has become the "go-to" plot device for hack screenwriters. It's the new "running thru the airport" or silhouettes framed against a wall of fire. Got writer's block? How about a torture scene.

[LynneSin]

206. I'm calling BULLSHIT - Over 70% of our population is Christian - this statistic is misleading

I'd like to know WHICH churches because they are all not created equal.

I'm sure those of the more fundamentalist side that believe the word of Paul over that of Jesus - sure they probably do.

But there are plenty of moderate to liberal christians out there that think differently.

Do NOT lump all of us Christians together - some faiths are totally opposite of others.

Over 70% of the country is Christian which means there's a good chance that the majority of people who oppose gay marriage are Christian, Who watch Desparate Housewives are Christian, That vote for American Idol are Christian.

Statistically you could put anything in that header and claim that it's done by mainly "chrisians" and you'd be correct

[supernova]

212. It's the fundie evangelical churches

They lfeft out Catholics, mainlines and Jewish groups out of this poll.

So the title of the article is misleading. It should ready Conservative Evangelicals Support Torture. Not surpring when you remember that conservatives really get off on giving/receiving discipline.

[Chovexani]

232. Don't get caught up in the headline, read the article.

It specifically cited white Protestant evangelicals as the group most likely to support torture.

IOW, fundies.

[Papa Boule]

207. If Jesus was tortured on our behalf so we can escape torture...

Isn't that the whole point of the Christian gospel?

Then what in the world are Christians doing advocating torture of others?

They escape torture themselves, and then turn and impose it on others?

Isn't that contradictory to the teachings about forgiving others as you are forgiven? Didn't Jesus tell a parable about a man who had his debt forgiven then refused to forgive the debts of others?

Isn't that contradictory to the idea that the right way to demonstrate the love you've received is to extend the same to others?

They came off the rails somewhere with tribal authoritarianism and hateful interpretations of the nature of God.

[Proud Liberal Dem]

210. Wierd

Although, of course, many of the same churchgoing folk whom mysteriously support torturing other human beings also slavishly support limitless "wars of choice" and the death penalty and, with a straight face, piously call themselves "pro-life" just because they oppose abortion rights. Go figure. :eyes: :shrug:

[RaleighNCDUer]

221. OTOH, I'd reckon that way less than 1% of UU churchgoers would

approve torture.

So I'd qualify that with a "it depends".

[valerief]

224. The Passion Play is a real...

...torturefest.

[Dinger]

226. This Churchgoer Never Has And Never Will Support Torture

I go almost every week, and I teach Sunday school. Just sayin'.

[OneBlueSky]

227. churchgoing fundamentalist Christians are not concerned with "what Jesus wants" . . .

they're concerned about using Jesus to justify their own greed and prejudices . . . like the leaders of the mega-churches who preach the "religion of prosperity," claiming that Jesus wants us all to have a McMansion, two cars, a big screen HDTV, and money in the bank . . . (except, of course, the money we should send them to help ensure their won prosperity) . . . I'm pretty sure Jesus didn't think that way . . .

if churchgoers do indeed support torture disproportionately, then I'm more glad than ever that I stopped going to church years ago . . . I remember the day well . . . it was the Sunday after Martin Luther King, Jr. was shot and killed, and when the priest asked the congregation to pray for his soul, a dozen or more "good Christians" got up and walked out . . . I stayed til the end of Mass, but never returned . . .

[Chovexani]

231. This is the same crowd that made the Passion of the Christ so much money

Why is anyone surprised? They get off on that shit.

To paraphrase George Carlin, I bet if Bush put that shit on Pay Per View we could balance the budget.

[Khaotic]

234. WWJT

Who Would Jesus Torture?

[Unca Jim]

235. Whoo! A thirteen point swing!

That must mean that anyone who believes in anything besides genetic predeterminalism is a total hypocritical asshole! :eyes:

Sorry, but I get tired of that line of thinking around here.

I'd like to know more about the study. It seems to me (at least observing at my church) that people who spend more time at church are mostly older, retired people who really buy into dogmatic thinking. As we know, younger people who go to church attend less often than older people (because of families, working, and more other demands on their time). I'm curious if the study included a cross-generational sample. I'd also like to know which churches in which regions of the country.


...cue up the "young people don't go to church because they know it's all lies" argument. Also old. Young people go to churches that reach out to them. Let's ratchet down the rhetoric and think about where the 13% difference comes from.

[LeftyMom]

254. Most of us do know it's all lies though.

Sorry if the truth hurts, but it's pretty damned hard to find a young adult who attends church and wasn't either raised in it or drawn to it because they were a complete fuckup and needed some kind of external ethical structure. Even church leaders will tell you that they have very little luck drawing in young adults, which is why "youth groups" and such are so emphasized to draw in more vulnerable, less rational teenagers.

[Unca Jim]

264. Dang.

First off, what exactly is "all lies"? The community serivce? The fellowship? The outreach and charity? Or just any beliefs at all that you don't accept?

Just looking for clarification on where the lies are. Your opinions on anyone who believes anything you don't agree with are evident.

I'm not sure what churches you've had experience with, but in general when churches reach out and accept people regardless of their beliefs, like mine does, they do just fine. the only ones hurting for youth membership are the ones who seek to impose a rigid set of beliefs on all the members of their church.


Also: Who doesn't need an external ethical structure? Were you born with innate ethics and thoughtfulness? I sure wasn't.

[Lance_Boyle]

265. Start with the bit about there being this thing called a god.

Anything that follows from that premise is gonna pretty much fall into the "all lies" column.

[Unca Jim]

266. So...let me get this straight...

*Any* action or statement predicated on the belief that there could be a higher state of being, or a higher power or powers is a lie?

Or is it that any action or statement predicated on the belief that there is more to life than is readily apparent is a lie?

I suppose it could be that any action or statement predicated on the belief that there is more to life than getting an evolutionary advantage over your competitors is a lie?

But aren't you really just saying that any belief you don't personally hold is a lie?


If we're talking lies I assume there is a definitive, absolute truth lurking somewhere. What is that truth and how has it been proven? By the way, I have this exact same conversation with fundies defending biblical truth, which is easy to repudiate.

[rrneck]

268. Were you born with innate ethics and thoughtfulness?

Yes.

[Unca Jim]

279. Well, that begs the question...

Where did they come from?

[rrneck]

280. Deoxyribonucleic acid nt

[Unca Jim]

284. So the argument is...

that your system of ethics -which developed in the context of the environment in which you grew up- is somehow genetically encoded into you? I guess that system of ethics, which is almost entirely modern in its nature, must have then evolved very recently.

Talk about a blind leap of faith flying in the face of all rational evidence!

That can't be what you meant...

[rrneck]

287. That is exactly what I meant.

Ethics have been around as long as humans have been around. Writing about ethics is the innovation. As long as humans have been living together they have been working out the right way to live among each other.

Humans have learned the useful trick to prognostication and memory. Thus, we are able to at least try to determine what we and others ought to do under various circumstances of dearth or plenty.

It would be more accurate to call it an epigenetic development facilitated by our large intellectual capacity. Memory of the past and hope for the future have given us guilt and hell, hope and heaven.

But I'm always interested in other rational evidence. What did you have in mind?

[Unca Jim]

288. Oh, I see.

What you meant is that because we have a shared set of genetic traits we tend to develop similar ethical systems.

Well, that makes sense to a certain degree. I'm certain you're familiar with the reaction range concept, so though I agree with you that all humans have similar genetic tendencies, environment is a large factor in determining an individual's ethical system. That was the point I was making, that no one has an ethical system that develops completely internally and we all have external components to our ethical systems.

I wasn't making the argument that all ethics or belief systems must include religion, which is patently false.

[rrneck]

289. So agreed. I should have been more clear. nt

[LeftishBrit]

237. Though an atheist myself, I know enough of the Bible to be aware that there's something in it about

loving your enemies. I don't think that means torturing them. Or do these people's churches use a different Bible?

[Papa Boule]

239. This is also an artifact of the "poisonous pedagogy" Ann Miller writes about

It's a Calvinistic thing. The teaching that people are totally depraved, all bad, and, because of that, especially when it comes to children, some torture is necessary, deserved, "for their own good." So people raised under such a culture, getting such messages, would assume there are other times when torture is necessary and okay and deserved.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

241. Why didn't you say wacko "evangelical Protestants" rather than "churchgoers"?

way to unfairly trash all church goers...

[muriel_volestrangler]

283. I imagine CNN said 'churchgoers' because it's accurate

http://pewresearch.org/pubs/1210/torture-opinion-religious-differences

Those who go to church more frequently do show stronger support for torture. Thus "churchgoers more likely ..." is accurate.

Also, when looked at by affiliation, white non-Hispanic Catholics show stronger support for torture than average; the group with least support for torture is 'Unaffiliated'.

[Hekate]

244. For their god is a vengeful god. nt

[Lydia Leftcoast]

246. As I noted upthread, FORTY PERCENT of non-religious people support torture

Ponder that one, and ask yourself if it isn't something about American culture that's messed up, religion or no religion.

[urgk]

263. To be fair to both sides...

We'd have to see the questions. I bet there would be a statistically significant difference in the results of

Are you in favor of torturing detainees?

And

If it saved U.S. lives, would you advocate making torture available as a last-itch effort to trained US experts?


I don't put a lot of faith into surveys unless I can see the questions. Not to mention the instructions on the survey, the group backing the study, and the questions that lead up to the one being discussed.

[rrneck]

269. Very good point. nt

[Name removed]

250. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

252. So how do you explain that NON-Christians still support torture at 40%?

:shrug:

[nichomachus]

253. I didn't say that all idiots are Christian

[moobu2]

272. Where are you getting the ‘40% of non-Christian support torture’ statistic?

You also said 40% of non-religious also support torture...where did you get that?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

275. From the OP

"White evangelical Protestants were the religious group most likely to say torture is often or sometimes justified — more than 6 in 10 supported it. People unaffiliated with any religious organization were least likely to back it. Only 4 in 10 of them did."

"Four in ten." That's 40%.

[moobu2]

277. I don’t think that ‘Unaffiliated’ means non-religious or even non-Christian

It probably means that they were people, probably Christians, who identified themselves as unaffiliated because they didn’t belong to any particular church. I think all the people surveyed were Christians, that's what it looks like to me anyway.

This is from the Pew Research Center's website

The Religious Dimensions of the Torture Debate

April 29, 2009

Amid intense public debate over the use of torture against suspected terrorists, an analysis by the Pew Research Center's Forum on Religion & Public Life of a new survey by the Pew Research Center for the People & the Press illustrates differences in the views of four major religious traditions in the U.S. about whether torture of suspected terrorists can be justified. Differences in opinion on this issue also are apparent based on frequency of attendance at religious services.

<snip>

Data from a Pew Research Center survey conducted April 14-21, 2009, among 742 American adults. Other religious groups are not reported due to small sample sizes.

Question wording: Do you think the use of torture against suspected terrorists in order to gain important information can often be justified, sometimes be justified, rarely be justified, or never be justified?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

271. Interesting point in the other CNN article:

The religious group most likely to say torture is never justified was Protestant denominations -- such as Episcopalians, Lutherans and Presbyterians -- categorized as "mainline" Protestants, in contrast to evangelicals. Just over three in 10 of them said torture is never justified. A quarter of the religiously unaffiliated said the same, compared with two in 10 white non-Hispanic Catholics and one in eight evangelicals.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/04/30/religion.torture/index.html?iref=mpstoryview

So mainline Protestants were MORE likely than non-religious people to say that torture is always wrong.

[charlie]

273. I think we could've guessed that

Hardly a surprise that the most support comes from the Kill 'em All faction of US Christians. They're nothing if not dependable.

I like these poll results because they put the lie (for the umpteenth time) to the old chestnut that religion is required for decency and moral behavior. That's hardly a surprise to most either, but unfortunately the ones who believe the lie are the ones incapable of surprise at their own headwrenching hypocrisy.

[Unca Jim]

285. Sounds fine to me...

as long as we add on that a belief that there is no god is not required for decency or moral behavior as well. :)

[dmallind]

286. And yet I am reliably informed, even by liberal believers,

that one of the major risks of having no belief in gods is that you fall prey to moral relativism and reduced concern for your fellow man.