12 self-immolate in bizarre ritual in Peru (set themselves on fire)

[moobu2]

Lima, June 7 (IANS) Twelve members of a Christian sect in Peru were killed after they reportedly set themselves on fire in a bizarre religious ritual, EFE news agency reported Saturday.

The gruesome ritual of the Nueva Esperanza (New Hope) community was discovered by police in Amazonas province following a complaint from the provincial governor, Wilder Rojas, who accused the Adventist congregation of trying to kidnap him.

When the police arrived on the scene, they found a man and his nine-year-old daughter being consumed by flames. The police tried but could not save the duo.

In another room, they found the charred remains of another 10 people, the daily Peru 21 said.

LINK

I doubt the 9 Y/O set herself on fire

[imdjh]

1. morons

[elshiva]

2. That's awful. Burning themselves to get rid of their sins.

That's the first I've heard of Christians immolating EACH OTHER in a sect rather than burning witches. Hope that this is the end of Nueva Esperanza.

[struggle4progress]

3. Let'sexamine this unilluminating bullshit story in detail:

On 5 June CPN reported 5 bodies in Pedro López Lancha's church in Yurimaguas in the Loreto region of Peru. The next day, essentially the same story ran in Nuevo Ojo -- while an EFE story ran in Spain's Que, bumping the total dead from 5 to 12 and adding the tidbit about Wilder Rojas and the kidnapping plot and moving the story from Yurimaguas to Nueva Esperanza. The Yahoo story is more-or-less a word-for-word translation of the Que story. Aside from the CPN and Nuevo Ojo reports, this story appears in none of the Peruvian media

Yurimaguas is pretty inaccessible: it's at the very end of Peru's so-called "highway system", and the roads to it are rather poor -- but apparently it wasn't inaccessible enough for Que. There are approximately a dozen places in Peru called Nueva Esperanza, and the Nueva Esperanza in Amazonas (-5 54' 34'' -78 33' 26'') seems to be a tiny mountain community about 5 or 10 miles away from the nearest village (Bagua Grande) and about 100 miles from Yurimaguas. "Wilder Rojas" is the name of a published poet from Loreto

So this seems to be an unverifiable ugly story perpetuating stereotypes about ignorant superstitious foreigners -- and if the story did turn out to be true, there's not nearly enough info to figure what really happened. What is the point of posting such a story?

Hallan 5 cuerpos calcinados en una iglesia
CPN RADIO 05 JUN|Cinco cuerpos calcinados fueron hallados en una iglesia que pertenecía a una secta religiosa extremista en Yurimaguas, capital de la provincia de Alto Amazonas, en Loreto. El pastor de la organización, Pedro López Lancha, dijo que las propias víctimas “se prendieron fuego” al expresar que éstos en vida habrían sido malhechores y buscaban redimir sus pecados. La Policía Nacional detuvo a 5 integrantes de la comunidad religiosa que podrían estar involucrados en un posible asesinato mientras las investigaciones continúan, informó nuestro corresponsal, Johnny Pezo.
http://www.cpnradio.pe/html/2009/06/05/2/2102.htm

Cinco cuerpos calcinados fueron hallados en una iglesia que pertenecía a una secta religiosa extremista en Yurimaguas, provincia de Alto Amazonas, en Loreto. Los cadáveres están completamente quemados e irreconocibles, por eso es difícil su identificación. La policía y peritos forenses trabajan para determinar sus nombres y cuándo habrían sido ejecutados. El pastor y líder de esta organización de fanáticos, identificado como Pedro López Lancha, aseveró que fueron las propias víctimas quienes se prendieron fuego al expresar que no podían seguir viviendo, pues a lo largo de su vida fueron malhechores, y por ello se suicidaron voluntariamente para redimir sus pecados. Tras descubrir los cuerpos, la Policía Nacional inició las investigaciones y logró detener a cinco personas integrantes de la comunidad religiosa que podrían estar involucradas en un posible asesinato masivo.
http://www.ojo.com.pe/nota.php?nota_id=48940

Mueren quemados doce miembros de una secta en Perú
Lima, 6 de junio de 2009 (EFE).
Doce miembros de una secta cristiana de Perú fallecieron por acción de las llamas, en lo que aparenta ser un ritual religioso, informó hoy el diario Perú 21. La policía peruana hizo el macabro hallazgo en la comunidad de Nueva Esperanza, en la provincia de Amazonas, después de recibir una denuncia contra la secta del teniente gobernador de la zona, Wilder Rojas, quien acusó a la congregación adventista de intentar secuestrarlo. Al llegar al lugar, los agentes descubrieron en una vivienda a un hombre y su hija de nueve años envueltos en llamas, pero no pudo hacer nada para salvarlos. En el domicilio contiguo, aparecieron los restos carbonizados de otras diez personas. El pastor de la secta adventista, Pedro López Lancha, ha sido detenido junto con otros tres miembros de su iglesia. Según el diario, López Lancha ha declarado que los cuerpos carbonizados pertenecían a delincuentes que se prendieron fuego como una forma de lavar sus pecados.
http://www.tageo.com/index-e-pe-v-01-d-408778.htm?Nueva+esperanza

Domingo, 30 de Septiembre de 2007
'Avenida Amarilla', segundo libro del poeta loretano Wilder Rojas Díaz
http://www.terra.com.pe/cultural/articulo/html/art12819.htm

Lic. WILDER ROJAS DIAZ
Director de Comunicaciones del Instituto Educativo para el Desarrollo Intelectual y Cultural - INEDIC.
http://www.setinedic.edu.pe/staff.htm

Wilder Rojas Díaz
http://www.librosperuanos.com/archivo/wilder-rojas.html

[moobu2]

5. There’s no reason to think this news story is "bullshit"

And you offered nothing to cast doubt on it much less prove it didn’t happen.

[struggle4progress]

6. Let's look closer at this nonsense:

Are there 5 charred bodies in Yurimaguas or 12 a hundred miles away in Nueva Esperanza? Both Peruvian sources, and the earliest source, say 5 in Yurimaguas. The later Spanish source says 12 in Nueva Esperanza. Exactly when and where did this occur? The various sources name "Pedro López Lancha." Did he convince 17 = 5 + 12 "criminals" in two different towns a hundred miles apart to set themselves on fire? Why isn't more Peruvian media covering this exciting story?

Yurimaguas has been in the news a lot lately -- and not because some "Christian" cult is allegedly convincing people to set themselves on fire:


Peru Declares State of Emergency, Deploys Special Forces to Break Up Indigenous Protests
LIMA, Peru, May 14 /PRNewswire-USNewswire/ -- In Peru, indigenous protests against recent government decrees affecting their land and resource rights continue to spread throughout the country. Amazon Watch has received several alarming reports of violent crackdowns against peaceful demonstrators by Special Forces after President Alan Garcia declared a state of emergency in the Cusco, Ucayali, Loreto and Amazonas regions over the weekend. For the past month, indigenous peoples have blockaded roads and rivers throughout the Amazon to protest new decrees which make it easier to transfer indigenous peoples' land and resource rights to oil, mining, logging and agricultural companies to the detriment of local inhabitants. The decrees have also set the stage for the privatization of water resources. In the town of Bagua in the Amazonas region near the border with Ecuador, there have been reports that on Sunday armed forces cracked down on peaceful Awajun and Huambis demonstrators on the Corral Quemado Bridge resulting in several serious injuries. Two people are reported missing. Elsewhere, several thousand Shawi and Cocama Cocamillas have blockaded the road between Yurimaguas and Tarapoto, a major transport route ... http://news.prnewswire.com/DisplayReleaseContent.aspx?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/05-14-2009/0005025954&EDATE=

21 May, 2009
Demonstrations and blockades continue in Peru's jungle
LivinginPeru.com
Isabel Guerra
Despite the State's initiative to start a dialogue with the natives, the demonstrations and blockades continue in the Peruvian jungle: the most dramatic situation takes place in Yurimaguas <Loreto region>, where at least three points of entrance to the city are blocked, causing food shortage in the city ... http://www.livinginperu.com/news-9156-law-order-demonstrations-blockades-continue-perus-jungle

Peruvian Indians vow to protect Amazon against foreign firms
Two battles in the Amazon jungle killed some 50 people.
Sunday, 07 June 2009 09:48
Indigenous protesters and Peru's army refused to back down and a truce looked distant on Saturday, after two battles in the Amazon jungle killed some 50 people. Protesters said 30 of their own died and the government said 22 members of the security forces perished in two days of clashes over President Alan Garcia's drive to bring foreign companies to the rainforest to open mines and drill for oil ... "We are not going to give up until they reverse these laws that will damage us. They want to take away our lands and forest and make our traditions disappear," said Luis Huansi, a leader of the Shawi tribe at a roadblock between the towns of Tarapoto and Yurimaguas ... Indigenous groups oppose laws passed last year as Garcia moved to bring Peru's regulatory framework into compliance with a free-trade agreement with the United States ... http://www.worldbulletin.net/news_detail.php?id=42966

Monday
June 8,2009
Oil Company Says Protests Causing Fuel Shortages in Peru
... The state-owned oil company’s stations 5 and 6 in Loreto have been occupied by Indians since April 23, preventing the transfer of crude to the Bayovar terminal in the Piura region ... A general strike organized in Yurimaguas, a city in Loreto, forced the closing of the sales outlet in the area, leaving residents without access to fuel, Petroperu said. The distribution terminal and airport in Tarapoto, a city in the San Martin region, are without fuel because tanker trucks cannot be sent from Yurimaguas, the oil company said. “This situation could even affect electricity generation in the city (of Tarapoto) because fuel for the power plant in Tarapoto is supplied from Yurimaguas,” Petroperu said ... http://www.laht.com/article.asp?ArticleId=335564&CategoryId=14095

Monday, June 08, 2009
Up to 63 people died in fierce battle
Peru searches for missing police after clashes with Indian tribes
... Troops controlled the town of Bagua Grande, around 1,400 km north of the capital Lima, after an overnight curfew was imposed to defuse the worst crisis of Garcia's term. An indigenous leader said 40 protestors were killed and the government said 23 members of the security forces perished in two days of battles over Garcia's push to lure billions of dollars in foreign investment to the rainforest. Protestors say they are defending their ancestral home. "The situation is normal at the moment, but we are continuing with patrols as a precaution," said Major Jose Luis Santillan, police chief in nearby Bagua Chica, close to the stretch of highway known as "Devil's Curve," where 11 police died when they moved to break up a roadblock on Friday. Dozens of police were held hostage by protestors, but most were freed a few hours later. On Sunday, two were still missing ... Champion Nonimgo from AIDESEP, Peru's leading indigenous rights group, said more than 40 protestors had been killed in the violence ... http://www.buenosairesherald.com/BreakingNews/View/3206

<8 June>
Peru officials order the arrest of 36 involved in clash
LIMA, Peru (CNN) -- Peruvian officials ordered the arrest Monday of 36 suspects in connection with clashes between indigenous citizens and the national police that left more than 30 people dead since Friday, the state-run news agency Andina reported ... The violence started when police attacked a roadblock near the city of Bagua, in the Amazonian part of northwestern Peru. About 2,500 indigenous people had blocked the main road to protest measures the government has taken to sell land to energy companies. Indians native to the area say that is their land even though they don't have formal property titles ...
http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/americas/06/08/peru.violence/

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
June 8, 2009
12:08 PM
CONTACT: Amazon Watch
In the U.S.: Nick Magel 1-419-283-2728 [e-mail]
In Peru: Gregor MacLennan + 511 - 993 916-389
Peru Police Accused of Disposing of Dead Indigenous to Cover Up Death Toll
Indigenous Leaders and Allies Call for an End to Violence on All Sides
BAGUA, Peru - June 8 - In the aftermath of Friday’s bloody raid on a peaceful indigenous road blockade near Bagua in the Peruvian Amazon, numerous eyewitnesses are reporting that the Special Forces of the Peruvian Police have been disposing of the bodies of indigenous protesters who were killed. “Today I spoke to many eyewitnesses in Bagua reporting that they saw police throw the bodies of the dead into the Marañon River from a helicopter in an apparent attempt by the Government to underreport the number of indigenous people killed by police,” said Gregor MacLennan, spokesperson for Amazon Watch speaking. “Hospital workers in Bagua Chica and Bagua Grande corroborated that the police took bodies of the dead from their premises to an undisclosed location. I spoke to several people who reported that there are bodies lying at the bottom of a deep crevasse up in the hills, about 2 kilometers from the incident site. When the Church and local leaders went to investigate, the police stopped them from approaching the area,” reported MacLennan ... http://www.commondreams.org/newswire/2009/06/08-3

Page last updated at 15:10 GMT, Monday, 8 June 2009 16:10 UK
'Many missing' after Peru riots
Local people say a military curfew is preventing them from hunting for those still unaccounted for. Witnesses report seeing bodies dumped in a river. President Alan Garcia has accused the protesters of "barbarity" and said "foreign forces" were also involved. The violence erupted on Friday after 2,500 Indians - many of them carrying spears and machetes - protested over government plans to drill for gas and oil in what they consider their ancestral lands. Riots ensued after about 400 riot police tried to clear the roadblock, near the town of Bagua Grande, 1,400km (870 miles) north of the capital Lima ... http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8088350.stm

[moobu2]

9. just a bunch of links to unrelated stories

[struggle4progress]

10. An indigenous uprising in Amazonas, the police accused of disposing of bodies -- and you

post a story about an unidentified cult in Nueva Esperanza (or was it a hundred miles away in Yurimaguas?) that allegedly persuaded 12 (or was it 5?) people to burn themselves to death at some unspecified crime scene in Nueva Esperanza (or was it at an unnamed church in Yurimaguas?)

The nearest real road to Nueva Esperanza runs through Bagua Grande, where police recently attacked a roadblock manned by 2500 protesters, with at least sixty dead and the police accused of dumping bodies in the river. Meanwhile, the priest in Bagua Grande is claiming victims of police have been found in a mass grave. Yurimaguas, meanwhile, has been blockaded for weeks

What purpose might your story serve? It portrays the people of the region as ignorant superstitious idiots -- at a time when they have suddenly organized in their own interest against foreign mineral extraction companies. And it purports to explain a number of bodies burned beyond recognition -- at a time when the police are accused of hiding large numbers of corpses. Okay: I've provided a fair amount of context -- and now it's your turn

Lunes, 08 de Junio del 2009 3524 Lecturas | 73 Comentarios
Párroco de Bagua Grande advierte existe una fosa de cadáveres de nativos
El sacerdote Casinaldo Ramos precisó que han empadronado a 700 nativos, los mismos que serán llevados a sus respectivas comunidades porque ellos sienten ´mucho temor a la policía´ ... http://www.rpp.com.pe/2009-06-08-parroco-de-bagua-grande-advierte-existe-una-fosa-de-cadaveres-de-nativos-noticia_186647.html

[struggle4progress]

7. Blood at the Blockade: Peru's Indigenous Uprising

Written by Gerardo Rénique
Monday, 08 June 2009

Source: NACLA

On June 6, near a stretch of highway known as the Devil's Curve in the northern Peruvian Amazon, police began firing live rounds into a multitude of indigenous protestors – many wearing feathered crowns and carrying spears. In the nearby towns of Bagua Grande, Bagua Chica, and Utcubamba, shots also came from police snipers on rooftops, and from a helicopter that hovered above the mass of people. Both natives and mestizos took to the streets protesting the bloody repression.

From his office in Bagua, a representative of Save the Children, the child anti-poverty organization, reported that children as young as four-years-old were wounded by the indiscriminate police shooting. President Alan García had hinted the government would respond forcefully to "restore order" in the insurgent Amazonian provinces, where he had declared a state of siege on May 9 suspending most constitutional liberties. The repression was swift and fierce.

By the end of the day, a number of buildings belonging to the government and to García's APRA party had been destroyed. Nine policemen and at least 40 protestors were killed (estimates vary). Overwhelmed by the number of wounded, small local hospitals were forced to shutter their doors. A Church official denounced that many of the civilian wounded and killed at the Devil’s Curve were forcefully taken to the military barracks of El Milagro. From Bagua, a local journalist told a radio station that policemen had dumped bagged bodies into the Utcubamba River.

Indigenous leaders have accused García of "genocide" and have called for an international campaign of solidarity with their struggle. Indigenous unrest in the Peruvian Amazon began late last year. After an ebb of a few months, the uprising regained force again on April 9. Since then, Amazonian indigenous groups have sustained intensifying protests, including shutdowns of oil and gas pumping stations as well as blockades of road and river traffic ... http://upsidedownworld.org/main/content/view/1899/68/

[struggle4progress]

8. Peru: mass grave found in Bagua, Parish Priest says

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=214x210727

[Judi Lynn]

23. You know, struggle4progress, we may be seeing more of these burned victims, too.

It just occurred to me that they might realize if the burn the bodies it will make it harder for outsiders to grasp what actually happened to the people before they died.

That thought jumped out at me when I read the following:

TODAY I DIED in Bagua

Today I died in Bagua, I was shot today. Today I was tortured, they dragged my body and then burned me down. My remains were thrown to the river. Today I was the art student shot in the chest, the four year old girl shot in the stomach. Mine was the immobile and bleeding body that the Peruvian Police has shot again cowardly, I am the mother who saw his son dying with my body was shaking in the road. Today I was the Indigenous man who went crazy and burned the government of Peru’s facilities because they do not represent me anymore.

I am the victim of genocidal racism of the right-wing Garcia government with the complicity of a mafia of apristas and fujimoristas. Today I'm hurt, I died today, today I am lying on a road and my body will be eaten by animals, because the police are shooting my family and friends who wants to rescue me. Today I am the Indigenous Peruvian, I am my people, my blood, my pain, my inquiry, my body, my anger.

Today I ask you, I require you, I demand you Alan García to resign, leave, get out! you're not my president, you are a genocidal criminal. Take your fucking murderers with you. One day you will end up behind bars. Evil, murderer, genocidal, racist, thug, you disgust me Alan García.

http://peruanista.blogspot.com/2009/06/hoy-he-muerto-en-bagua-fotos-y-videos.html

~~~~~~~~~~
I find it odd, too, as you do, on a day we learn the bowels of hell have opened up in this area because Alan Garcia wants to kill the indigenous people instead of settling the matter like a real man, and like a "Christian," and arranging for the future of these people who are living on land their ancestors knew as their ancient, eternal home, some one lobs in an article like THIS one.

I, too, have known 7th Day Adventists, and this is entirely ALIEN to their way of thinking, profoundly not credible at any point.

[Dorian Gray]

4. How horrible

So sad, and that poor 9 year old girl.

[struggle4progress]

11. Some recent photos from Amazonas

http://www.diariolaprimeraperu.com.nyud.net:8090/online/images/2009/junio/06/pol1.jpg
Lima, 08 de Junio del 2009
Masacre en la Amazonía
http://www.diariolaprimeraperu.com/online/politica/masacre-en-la-amazonia_39866.html

http://www.agenciapulsar.org.nyud.net:8090/fotos/15173_1.jpg
Nota publicada el 08/06/2009 - 18:13 hs.
Aidesep: “Este Gobierno ha manchado la sangre de nuestro Perú”
http://www.agenciapulsar.org/nota.php?id=15173

http://www.larepublica.pe.nyud.net:8090/files/image/2009/junio/08/DIRE080609YURIMAGUAS.jpg
Yurimaguas está rodeada de 600 policías
Lun, 08/06/2009 - 07:27
http://www.larepublica.pe/bagua-masacre/08/06/2009/yurimaguas-esta-rodeada-de-600-policias

http://www.bbc.co.uk.nyud.net:8090/worldservice/assets/images/2009/06/08/090608155229_pro_226b.jpg
Claves del conflicto en Perú
Redacción
BBC Mundo
http://www.bbc.co.uk/mundo/america_latina/2009/06/090608_1226_peru_qa_lp.shtml

http://www.as-coa.org.nyud.net:8090/files/images/pub_1700.jpg
A Tense Peace in Peru's Amazon
Carin Zissis
June 8, 2009
http://www.as-coa.org/article.php?id=1700

http://english.aljazeera.net.nyud.net:8090/mritems/Images//2009/6/8/2009685531179660_5.jpg
Monday, June 08, 2009
Peru tribes accused of 'barbarity'
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/americas/2009/06/2009684574166687.html

http://images.theage.com.au.nyud.net:8090/2009/06/07/559574/W_PERU-200x0.jpg
31 die in Amazon land rights clashes
Bagua, Peru
June 8, 2009
http://www.theage.com.au/world/31-die-in-amazon-land-rights-clashes-20090607-bzsp.html

http://www.cnr.org.pe.nyud.net:8090/pics/bloqueo_carretera_yurimaguas,jpg.jpeg.jpg
Tensión en Yurimaguas por posible incursión policial
Yurimaguas, Loreto 07/06/2009 (CNR)
http://www.cnr.org.pe/noticia.php?id=26481

http://img.inforegion.pe.nyud.net:8090/wp-content/uploads/enfrentamiento-bagua-150x150.jpg
Bagua - Amazonas
07 Junio 2009 - 8:38 pm
Ciudad desierta por Estado de emergencia
Alrededor de 780 indígenas refugiados en Bagua Grande esperan ser trasladados a sus comunidades
http://www.inforegion.pe/seguridad/29579/alrededor-de-780-indigenas-refugiados-en-bagua-grande-esperan-ser-trasladados-a-sus-comunidades/

http://suomenkuvalehti.fi.nyud.net:8090/s/mediagallery/2009/6/7/154736/wq07143ow.jpg
Peru Amazon Protests
Päivämäärä: 7.6.2009 klo 14:22
http://suomenkuvalehti.fi/kuvat/2009/06/07/peru-amazon-protests-q07143ow

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk.nyud.net:8090/media/images/45880000/jpg/_45880564_007455139-1.jpg
Peru army imposes Amazon curfews
Page last updated at 06:58 GMT, Sunday, 7 June 2009 07:58 UK
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8087613.stm

http://english.aljazeera.net.nyud.net:8090/mritems/Images//2009/6/6/20096611388761112_5.jpg
Police held hostage in Peru clashes
Saturday, June 06, 2009
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/americas/2009/06/20096611823528241.html

http://www.cnr.org.pe.nyud.net:8090/pics/detenidos_cnddhh.jpg
Aidesep responsabiliza al gobierno por suerte de más de cien detenidos en cuartel militar
Lima, 06/06/2009 (CNR)
http://www.cnr.org.pe/noticia.php?id=26473

http://src.eluniverso.com.nyud.net:8090/data/recursos/imagenes/PR10A060609-DHAA,photo01_228_168.jpg
Sábado 06 junio Internacional
Choque entre nativos y policías deja 36 muertos
http://www.eluniverso.com/2009/06/06/1/1361/AEF6EA643F05413087B3D6EC41079AD0.html

http://lcn.canoe.ca.nyud.net:8090/archives/lcn/infos/lemonde/media/2009/06/20090606-205204-g.jpg
Pérou
Manifestation sanglante : 22 vingt policiers sont tués
Mise à jour : 06/06/2009 20h52
http://lcn.canoe.ca/lcn/infos/lemonde/archives/2009/06/20090606-205204.html

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk.nyud.net:8090/media/images/45876000/jpg/_45876329_-1.jpg
Page last updated at 23:25 GMT, Friday, 5 June 2009 00:25 UK
Deadly clashes in Peru's Amazon
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8086595.stm

[struggle4progress]

12. Thread now on greatest page about current atrocities in Amazonas:

"Go ahead and shoot the dogs in the head": Garcia's police shoot, bomb and gas protestors in Peru!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5805063

[struggle4progress]

13. Thread now in LBN about current atrocities in Amazonas:

Eyewitness Reports Accuse Peruvian Police of Disposing the Bodies of Dead Indigenous Protesters
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x3912997

[struggle4progress]

14. Oooh! Another website has picked up the story, with changes and a photoshop!

Here's the story, still attributed to Peru21: the story is now not 5 or 12 but 10 charred bodies, and the confusion about whether this occurred in Nueva Esperanza or Yurimaguas (100 miles apart) is "resolved" by claiming the deaths occurred "en la comunidad de Nueva Esperanza, en Yurimaguas, Loreto"

Loreto (Peru.com).- Diez miembros de una secta adventista fallecieron calcinados, en lo que aparenta ser un ritual religioso en la comunidad de Nueva Esperanza, en Yurimaguas, Loreto. Un miembro de la secta dijo que se prendieron fuego para “lavar sus pecados”.
http://sectarismo.wordpress.com/2009/06/08/adventistas-mueren-quemados/

[struggle4progress]

15. Here's the gruesome photoshop! Note that everything is in focus, except the body:

http://cdn.peru.com.nyud.net:8090/noticias/sgc/policial/2009/06/06/4a44be7b-c9a1-4aa7-8717-6dbc34f81756.jpg

Curiously, everything is in focus except the corpse. Something (curiously in focus) is in the technician's hand, as he touches the out of focus corpse

[moobu2]

17. Looks like they blurred the burnt corpse, it’s pretty standard

Nothing sinister about it.

[struggle4progress]

20. Peru.com has plenty of non-blurred shots from the Amazonas conflict, including morgue shots

Since it's morbid, I won't post links: anyone can find them

[struggle4progress]

16. Here's a 6 June link with the same sorry-ass photoshop

Mueren quemados 10 miembros de una secta en Yurimaguas
sábado 06 de junio del 2009
http://www.peru.com/noticias/portada20090606/38055/Mueren-quemados-10-miembros-de-una-secta-en-Yurimaguas

Let's recap: on 5 June, there were 5 charred corpses in a church in Yurimaguas; on 6 June, there were 10 charred corpses in a house "in Nueva Esperanza in Yurimaguas" and a sorry-ass photoshop; then there were 12 charred corpses in Nueva Esperanza

[moobu2]

18. This story say's

"Upon arriving at the scene, officers found a house to a man and his daughter nine years wrapped in flames, but could do nothing to save the child.

In the adjacent home, appeared charred remains of ten people."


2+10=12

[struggle4progress]

19. Fair enough: let's look more closely:

First, it's "5 in a church"

Hallan 5 cuerpos calcinados en una iglesia
|CPN RADIO 05 JUN| http://www.cpnradio.pe/html/2009/06/05/2/2102.htm

Cinco cuerpos calcinados fueron hallados en una iglesia ... http://www.ojo.com.pe/nota.php?nota_id=48940

Then, it's "2 in one room and 10 in the next room"

12 self-immolate in bizarre ritual in Peru
... When the police arrived on the scene, they found a man and his nine-year-old daughter being consumed by flames. The police tried but could not save the duo. In another room, they found the charred remains of another 10 people, the daily Peru 21 said ... http://in.news.yahoo.com/43/20090607/890/twl-12-self-immolate-in-bizarre-ritual-i.html

Finally, it's "2 in one house and 10 next door"

Adventistas mueren quemados
... Al llegar al lugar, los agentes descubrieron en una vivienda a un hombre y su hija de nueve años envueltos en llamas, pero no pudo hacer nada para salvar a la menor. En el domicilio contiguo, aparecieron los restos carbonizados de otras diez personas ... http://sectarismo.wordpress.com/2009/06/08/adventistas-mueren-quemados/

Church? Two houses? One house? 5? 12? Yurimaguas? Nueva Esperanza?

[moobu2]

21. 12 Adventist Christians died in what appears to be murder suicide of some sort

It isn’t like it’s unheard of, really.


Peru's political problems are an entirely different issue though.

[struggle4progress]

22. No, we have a story about 5 or 12 unidentifiable corpses, found in one of two places

a hundred miles apart, in a region where the police are currently accused of atrocities and of dumping bodies

And while I often disagree with the Seventh Day Adventists, they don't preach suicide

[Why Syzygy]

24. Thank you for your research.

Terribly sad.

[trotsky]

26. I'm surprised you didn't realize this by now, but...

s4p is an expert on just what "true Christians" do. Therefore if he says it is impossible for a fringe 7th Day Adventist cult to engage in a bizarre self-immolation ritual, why then it just is. He knows this because, well, because he does. Period.

(Seriously, I have no idea why this escalated so quickly to the point of radical obsession with him to disprove this event. There's lots of nasty violence in Peru, and without being there all we have to go on are news reports. It's possible that Christians could have done this to themselves. It's possible they didn't. We might never know.)

[struggle4progress]

27. I posted some general guidelines for detecting bullshit filler stories here:

It's surprisingly easy to make up stories like this
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=105&topic_id=8815356&mesg_id=8815465

[struggle4progress]

28. As an example of bullshit filler story, consider the recent LBN "mattress" thread:

Woman Mistakenly Junks Mattress With $1 Million Inside
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=3916329

One indicator that a story is nonsense is the fact that it occurs in multiple inconsistent versions:

Yep. And versions of the story are proliferating
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=3916329&mesg_id=3917250

And I've shown previously in this thread that the charred corpses story occurs in multiple inconsistent versions

[struggle4progress]

29. Bullshit filler stories occur frequently. Another recent LBN examnple is the meteorite thread:

Boy Hit by Meteorite
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=3919743

The story was demonstrably false:

... questions are surfacing about the validity of Blank's story
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=3919743&mesg_id=3920916

[struggle4progress]

30. Mere snark is childish: do feel free to contribute any information to this thread, if you have any

[trotsky]

31. And spamming a thread is mature?

Wow, this one really hits home with you for some reason. I'm gonna step back now and let you have your conniption.

[struggle4progress]

32. Again, feel free to contribute any information you have to this thread, if you have any

[struggle4progress]

34. Oh, look! there were reports police had been burning bodies of Amazonas protesters!

Trusted Global Citizen Journalism.
Posted: June 11, 2009 05:16 PM
Up to 250 Indigenous Peruvians Killed in Bagua, Says Leader Miguel Palacin
By Calos Quiroz
I just finished a phone conversation with Miguel Palacin, he is the president of Coordinadora Andina de Organizaciones Indigenas (CAOI) or the Andean Coordination of Indigenous Organizations ... "How can those with guns and prepared to attack have 25 dead, and those who were unarmed and were defending themselves had only nine people dead. Most people don't believe that anymore" said Palacin, especially international organizations are very exceptical. Rumors say the bodies were burned down and thrown from helicopters ... http://www.huffingtonpost.com/groundreport/up-to-250-indigenous-peru_b_214517.html

PERU: Native Protesters Search for Their Dead
By Milagros Salazar
... "They burned the bodies of some protesters, over there," said Padilla, who was unable to provide the names of victims due to the chaos and confusion that reigned on Friday and the fact that the demonstrators came from more than 356 different villages and communities ... http://www.ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=47188

Peru protest leader takes refuge
... Eyewitnesses report seeing bodies burnt or dumped in a river. "The police were shooting to kill, but that's not all, because they hid the dead," one man told the BBC ... http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8090548.stm

[struggle4progress]

25. "Peru Oil Standoff" - Richard Heinberg interviewed on CBC The Current

12 Jun 2009 |
Richard Heinberg was interviewed on CBC radio in "Peru Oil Standoff", a segment of the CBC daily show The Current.

... Some of the worst violence took place at Devil's Pass, where an estimated 100 people were killed. The protests began in response to the Peruvian government's plan to open up previously protected areas of the Amazon to oil, gas and mineral exploration. Indigenous people say their rights are being trampled on and that the Amazon's fragile ecosystem will be destroyed. The government says that opening up the Amazon to resource extraction will bring in much-needed revenue and boost the local economy ...

http://www.globalpublicmedia.com/the_current_061209

[Martin_Kaine]

33. dang

that's insane.

[struggle4progress]

36. See #35

[struggle4progress]

35. A quick recap of this story and its context, based on info from links in this thread:

The original story ran in CPN on 5 June. It alleged five charred bodies in Pedro López Lancha's church in Yurimaguas. At the time the story ran, Yurimaguas and roads to it were blockaded by indigenous people protesting the land decrees. In addition to blockades near Yurimaguas, there were also roadblocks at Tarapoto and Bagua Grande. On 5 June, Peruvian authorities began military attacks on the indigenous. A new version of the story from EFE on 6 June moved the story a hundred miles to Nueva Esperanza (near Bagua Grande), changed the church to a house (a later story claimed two houses), and increased the number of charred bodies to twelve; it also claimed the local governor had denounced the dead for threatening to kidnap him. The Amazonas seat of government is in Chachapoyas, down highway 3N from the Bagua Grande roadblock; route 5N towards Tarapoto ends on 3N between Bagua Grande and Chachapoyas. Subsequently, hundreds of people have been reported missing, and there are claims bodies have been burned and dumped in the river. Thus the story occurs in one of two places associated with the Amazonas protests, though the first (Yurimaguas) was probably inaccessible to outsiders at the time, due to the blockades; it is first reported on the day the authorities attacked the protesters; the second version of the story alleges a kidnapping threat against an official; and local reports suggest there may be some burned bodies associated with a government coverup. No new versions of the story of the supposedly suicidal church-members have appeared for a week: the alleged church is still unspecified; the religious group is still unspecified; while the dead are explicitly said to have been charred beyond recognition. Res ipsa loquitur


Peru: Battle for the Amazon
Kiraz Janicke
13 June 2009
Peruvian President Alan Garcia ordered a violent crackdown on indigenous protesters near the town of Bagua Grande, 1400 kilometres north of Peruvian capital Lima. Special Forces opened fire, including from helicopters ... “The 5th of June 2009 will go down in history as the day when democratic illusions — illusions that were very weak, that’s for sure — ended”, Peruvian political economist Raul Weiner said on June 5 ... http://www.greenleft.org.au/2009/798/41070

[struggle4progress]

37. Sindh Today has run a version citing the earlier EFE story, and Reformatorish Dagblad has

a Dutch translation

Curiously, the Peruvian press has been silent for more than a week on "Pedro Lopez Lancha" and "Wilder Rojas" -- you'd think this grisly tale would excite more interest

[moobu2]

38. Jesus commanded it and the Bibles full of burning people

"If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned." John 15:6

There are dozens of instances in the Bible where people are burned or are threatened with burning. It’s where the church got the idea to burn heretics and so called witches rather than cutting their heads off or hanging them as a form of sin cleansing execution. After all, it’s better to suffer the pain of burning for a few minutes, and be sin cleansed, rather than suffering that burning pain for an eternity in hell. Those poor people.

Anyway, I have no idea whether or not this story is true, But I wouldn’t be surprised if it were. Christian have done worse things than this. It's straight out of the Bible, why wouldn’t they burn people?

[struggle4progress]

39. Still no new information on this bullshit "story" you posted

You claim the Bible promotes burning people, but despite the Old Testament references in your link, I'm unaware of any Judaic philosophy of burning people to death -- and similarly I'm unaware of any current Christian denomination that promotes burning people to death