Hell.

[Strong Atheist]

<snip>

“If you don’t mention God’s judgment, you are missing a big part of the Christian gospel,” Selles said. “Without wrath, there’s no grace.”

A Southern Baptist Home Mission Board study in 1993 estimated that 70 percent of all Americans are going to hell, based on projected numbers of those who have not had a born-again experience.

Either way, Selles said, pretending that hell doesn’t exist, or trying to preach around it, short-circuits the Bible.

“This is a doctrine, a teaching, that’s being neglected in churches,” Selles said. “It needs to be preached. It’s part of the Gospel.”

http://www.religionnews.com/index.php?/rnstext/heaven_sure_hell_not_so_much/

[grantcart]

1. In the same way that contemporary pulp theologians project themselves into

their Christologies they do the same with their images of hell.


The book of Daniel and the Book of Revelation were both written during times of great persecution, including feedig to animals and the use of Christians as human torches. The strong language of the apocalypse and eternal judgement was meant to help sustain those being persecuted at a time when many, including bishops lost their nerve.


It is useful to note that in those passage thought to be most closely aligned with the historical Jesus there is virtually no mention of hell.

[Strong Atheist]

4. .

Jesus never soft-pedaled the concept of hell, Selles said. “It’s not metaphorical in Jesus’ mind; it’s a real place,” he said.

[grantcart]

22. It was a real place, it was the depository where they took the bodies that

would not be interned to be burned.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gehenna

Fires were kept burning and the valley became the garbage dump of the city. The dead bodies of criminals, and the carcasses of animals were also thrown there.

There are only 11 refernces to Hades in the New Testament

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hades_in_Christianity
In all appearances but one, "ᾅδης" has little if any relation to afterlife rewards or punishments. The one exception is Luke's parable of Lazarus and the rich man, in which the rich man finds himself, after death, in Hades,<4> and "in anguish in this flame",<5> while on the contrary the angels take Lazarus to "the bosom of Abraham",<6> described as a state of comfort.<7>

The 19th century invention of 'fire and brimestone' is just more invention.

[Sebastian Doyle]

2. I truly hope there is a Hell

Because the current bunch of theocratic fundagelical dominionist lunatics really deserve to go there. Along with all the corporatist traitors in Congress.

[Silent3]

13. There are no people bad enough...

...to deserve eternal torment.

I have a hard time understanding how some Fundamentalists can believe in a God who is supposedly infinitely loving and just and yet believe in a literal Hell of eternal agonizing punishment at the same time. If there are any miracles at all, it's that their heads don't explode from the cognitive dissonance.

I don't believe in anything supernatural at all, in the likelihood of any sort of afterlife. If I'm trying to imagine how I'd like things to be, however (as if I had a choice in the matter), I wouldn't hope for a universe where human standards of right and wrong had much to do with what happens after we die. It's not that I'm such a benevolent and forgiving type -- I'm quite capable of wishing horrible suffering on those who havedone terrible wrongs to other people -- but I don't see it as likely or desirable that a human longing for so-called justice (which is, after all, often merely a noble-sounding way of saying "revenge") would have anything to do with the way the universe operates.

[Withywindle]

27. Agreed completely.

How can any finite, small being - yes, even Hitler - commit crimes deserving of infinite torment? (Don't give me the Original Sin argument - that's even more tortured and nonsensical)

If there is a form of Universal Consciousness that might be similar to what some call God (and I'm not an atheist, I do believe there is), I can't bring myself to believe that Its ideas of "justice" and "grace" are anything like ours or remotely akin to anything our finite, small, mammalian minds can understand. (And I sure hope not!) And all the ideas of Hell I have ever read or heard of seem to be all about human values and prejudices, regardless of whether the emphasis is on mercy, salvation, or just plain ol' schadenfreude.

It's possible that ants who believe in the Ant God have dogmas full of eternal torments for the giant demons who step on ants. If this is the case, I have no doubt it brings comfort to those who long for revenge (often justified!). That doesn't make it true, and it doesn't make it make theological sense.

[midnight]

17. These three words theocratic fundagelical dominionist

explain Bushe's compassionate conservatism.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

3. Who doesn't love a meaningful

sociological study?

"A Southern Baptist Home Mission Board study in 1993 estimated that 70 percent of all Americans are going to hell, based on projected numbers of those who have not had a born-again experience."

Honestly, who could run something like this with a straight face?

[ClayZ]

5. B F video "We're All Going to Hell"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQu1TBIMSSk

[provis99]

6. funny kind of Christian

Who are these Christians who are 1,000 times more excited about hell and satan than they are about heaven and jeebus? Just spreading the Christian Love, I guess.

[Strong Atheist]

8. Well, I guess they and a god who would set up such punishment would have a lot in common with shrub

and cheney; who no doubt would heartily approve of eternal torture...

[elocs]

7. Jesus' Teaching on Hell

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/jesusteachingonhell.html

It's an interesting read for someone who is a Christian and even a strong atheist might learn something from it. I know a lot of Evangelical preachers would choke if they thought any of their teachings ever had their roots in Roman Catholic theology.

Here is the summation:

Summary of Jesus' Teaching on Hell

False theories of eternal punishment of the wicked have done unfathomable damage in the religious realm. Untold millions of people have obeyed God purely out of fear of a false concept of hell. Other untold millions have turned their backs on God because of a false sense of hell, as described by Roman Catholic sources, and their followers in most denominations.

This study shows that when John the Baptist and Jesus used these terms, they used language familiar to the Jews whom they taught. The Jews had heard this language no other way than in scenes of national judgment. While it is easy for us to read these passages from the point of view of enduring conscious punishment, we should read them as the Jews who heard them first.

Rather than our present day beliefs about hell coming from the Bible, the caller to the radio program was right. Our beliefs come from Roman Catholic theologians. As a result of an earlier version of this material, many have asked the author to deal with the final destiny of the wicked. While we are not prepared to deal with that larger subject at present, we can see, if our conclusions are correct thus far, that the subject of the final destiny of the wicked was never part of Jesus' teaching on Gehenna or hell. That connection was given to us courtesy of Roman Catholicism, just like it gave us purgatory, the sale of indulgences, Limbo Patrum, Limbo Infantrum, etc.

Words do have meanings and a translated word should reflect the meaning of the original word and how it would be understood by those who originally heard it.
Contrary to the belief of many Evangelicals, the Bible was not handed down by God in the King James Version.

[Strong Atheist]

10. Contrary to the belief of many Evangelicals, the Bible was not handed down by God in the King James

Version."

Nor in any other version. It has been written edited, deleted, and transcribed by hundreds of people over hundreds of years, and translated multiple times.

Talk about "telephone" on steriods...

[elocs]

16. About the KJV, I thought I said that.

Christians do not read the Bible in the original languages either and even if the original was perfect, any translation would be less than perfect and interpretation of any words or phrases would be up to the translator.

In the end, religion, any religion, is about faith and if you don't believe then the religion is meaningless and probably silly to a nonbeliever. Just as Obama is not responsible for the imperfect word, deeds, and actions of his backers (neither is the Democratic Party), so God (if there is a god) is not responsible for all of the imperfect words, deeds, and actions of those who profess to follow that god.

Just as it says in "Ebony and Ivory" there is good and bad in everyone, which includes both Christians and Democrats although some Democrats may also be Christians (like President Obama). I would even bet that there are a few DUers who are Christians too.

[Why Syzygy]

39. "Up to the translator" .

Well, yuh! But SOME people look at the original word meanings and try to determine for themselves what may have been intended.

If you're content to take the precept of "hell" on faith and go around cursing people, no one can stop you. God bless them each and every one! You are doing damage with that attitude. But if you can't help it, I at least pray they will find the truth elsewhere.

edit to give you this link with a very easy and thorough tool to see what the REAL words are:
http://www.icr.org/home/search/

[bsd13]

30. And yet when scrutinized

It has more historical evidence than any other piece of work in all of creation backing it. There are more transcripts supporting the Bible than any other historical documents in ancient history. You do a disservice to simply dismiss it because it has been translated and transcribed countless times. If you don't believe in the message it has that's fine, but to say the message is wrong because it has been diluted by time and translation is misleading.

[Goblinmonger]

32. Linky?

What transcripts exactly support the bible? Are you talking old testament or new testament? Because I don't think you have anything for the new testament since there is NO evidence there even was a Jesus with the exception of Josephus' forged crap. And the old testament is pretty hit and miss, too. Sure some things are right in a general sense (most cultures talk about a flood though that is hardly evidence of a flood covering the whole world which I hope you know is not possible), but there is no evidence that the Jews were enslaved in Egypt, etc.

Though, I would love to see the independent transcripts which support the bible.

[bsd13]

41. Go study

Archeology, middle eastern history, linguistics, and theology and you won't need a link.

[muriel_volestrangler]

42. Archeology, middle eastern history, and linguistics support nothing before Solomon, really

There's one mention of 'Israel' as a people, in the Merenptah Stele: http://www.ancientegyptonline.co.uk/sisrael.html

And there are later steles that refer to the 'House of David', but don't specify when David lived, or anything else about him. And that's it, really, for anything before the separate kingdoms of Judah and Israel.

[Goblinmonger]

43. Weak sauce, my friend, weak sauce.

If, as you say, there are more historical documents backing up the bible than anything else, SURELY you should be able to provide me with something. Additionally, you are the one making the claim; I am merely asking for some proof of said claim. Shoot me a couple links to the, apparently, thousands of documents available and we'll talk about those. Until said production of links, I am going to call bullshit on your claim.

Waiting patiently.

[Goblinmonger]

50. Off Topic: It is just weird for me to see the mod icon next to my name.

Hope nobody here had a heart attack when they saw my name on the list. Have a great weekend, everyone.

[laconicsax]

44. How about if I dismiss it because it contains numerous factual errors?

The Earth is much older than 6000 years.
The Universe is much older than 6000 years.
The Earth is not flat and is not fixed with the sun circling it.
There aren't 'higher waters' above the heavens.
Bats are mammals, not birds.
Rabbits don't chew their cud.
There's no evidence of a global flood.
There's no evidence of immortal, subterranean worms.
There's no evidence that zombies ever invaded Jerusalem.

External documents making mention of a place or person also mentioned in the Bible doesn't say anything about the Bible's accuracy--England exists and the Napoleonic wars took place. Does that mean that Forrester's Hornblower series is true?

[rd_kent]

55. Really? What evidence is that?

[rd_kent]

54. This is the same conversation I had with the wife of a friend.

She is a complete fanatic wingnut, he is not so much, but very dear friends. She and I were discussing the bible and I asked her the same question: Where do you think this (pointing to the KJV) bible came from? She looked at me like I was an alien and when I explained that it was the result of many translations and compilations of scripture written over hundreds of years, she refused to believe it.

[saltpoint]

9. Considering that 7 in 10 of us are bound for eternal punishment, I think

that cities' anti-clothelines ordinances should be relaxed.

[TreasonousBastard]

11. And think of all the Chinese there, too...

Curiously, the Old Testament in Hebrew has no mention of of Hell as a place of torment. The words used signified distance from God, and that would be punishment enough. Jews who translate to English don't use the word "hell."

Translated into English by Protestants, Hell is all over the OT. It's all ove the NT, too, even though Jesus wasn't all that specific about it. If Jesus was alluding to Jewish beliefs in the afterlife, as a good Rabbi would, he wouldn't threaten anyone with hellfire.

There were, however, those nasty burning garbage dumps that became handy allegories.

[Interloper]

12. Earth

This world has been hell to most of us...
but, biblically it is simply the grave, or a metaphore derived from the valley of Hinnom, outside of Jerusalem were the garbage was burned along with the bodies of criminals.
As a doctrine it is just another tool to motivate people with fear...of God.
I am best motivated by keeping my eyes on the prize. Positive motivation works best.

[Why Syzygy]

14. Maybe it is being "neglected"

due to more people realizing it is a false teaching. This guy would also have a beef with John the BAPTIST, Paul, Peter, Jude, and John.

"The Origin and History of the Doctrine of Endless Punishment"
By Thomas B. Thayer
Written in 1855

1. Though Gehenna occurs twelve times, the Savior actually used it only on four or five different occasions, the rest being only repetitions. If this is the word, and the revelation of this terrible doctrine is in it, how is it possible that Christ, in a ministry of three years, should use it only four times? Was He faithful to the souls committed to His charge?

2. The Savior and James are the only persons in all the New Testament who use the word. John Baptist, who preached to the most wicked of men, did not use it once. Paul wrote fourteen epistles, and yet never once mentions it. Peter does not name it, nor Jude; and John, who wrote the gospel, three epistles, and the Book of Revelations, never employs it in a single instance. Now if Gehenna or hell really reveals the terrible fact of endless woe, how can we account for this strange silence? How is it possible, if they knew its meaning, and believed it a part of Christ's teaching, that they should not have used it a hundred or a thousand times, instead of never using it at all; especially when we consider the infinite interests involved?

3. The Book of Acts contains the record of the apostolic preaching, and the history of the first planting of the Church among the Jews and Gentiles, and embraces a period of thirty years from the ascension of Christ. In all this history, in all this preaching of the disciples and apostles of Jesus, there is no mention of Gehenna. In thirty years of missionary effort, these men of God, addressing people of all characters and nations, never, under any circumstances, threaten them with the torments of Gehenna, or allude to it in the most distant manner! In the face of such a fact as this, can any man believe that Gehenna signifies endless punishment, and that this is a part of divine revelation, a part of the Gospel message to the world?

http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/tbhell.html

[Strong Atheist]

15. Interesting. To be quite honest, I am not one of those atheists

who can argue every point/piece of history of the bible (and we have such people here), so that was interesting info... nt.

[Zebedeo]

33. That reads like it was written by Satan himself

What audacious lies. Jesus talked about Hell a lot. Here is a website that has much information about what Jesus said about Hell. He warned about Hell a lot more than "only four times." Moreover, it is beyond stupid to conclude that if Jesus is quoted in the Bible as saying something four times, that means he never said it any more times than four "in a ministry of three years." The Bible does not purport to comprehensively chronicle every word that Jesus spoke. In fact, the last line in the Book of John is "Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written."

Also, to suggest that Hell is not mentioned in the Book of Revelation is either hopelessly ill-informed or mendacious - most likely the latter. There are vivid descriptions of Hell in the Book of Revelation, as anyone can see simply by reading it.

- Zebedeo

[Why Syzygy]

34. The word "HELL" is not used anywhere.

The preacher quoted above uses the original words, not the human selected and substituted "hell". You do know the Bible wasn't written in English, right?

Jesus NEVER said, "hell". He DID however, command to keep the Sabbath. So I sure hope you go to church on Saturdays and not Sundays!

(...)
The Orthodox Hell

Dr. R. A. Torrey, the noted evangelist and pastor of the church established by the late D. L. Moody, in Chicago, speaking of the punishment of the wicked, said:
"Not merely throughout an age, but throughout all ages. It is a picture not merely of years tumbling upon years, but of ages tumbling upon ages in endless succession. It is not in a single instance used of a limited period. Nothing could more plainly or graphically picture absolute endlessness.... The future state of those who reject the redemption offered them in Christ is plainly declared to be a state of conscious, unutterable, endless torment and anguish. This conception is an awful and appalling one. It is however the Scriptural conception and also a reasonable one when we come to see the appalling nature of sin."— Torrey's What the Bible Teaches, Pages 110-111.

The foregoing is a picture of Dr. Torrey's hell, and represents the views of a large majority of so-called orthodox ministers and evangelists.

I use the term, "Dr. Torrey's hell," because he, like Billy Sunday, is among its greatest champions. If these men would read their Bibles and preach what is found therein, the flags of hell would be half-masted and hell itself would be draped in the sable mantle of mourning.

The complacency with which these men contemplate the millions whom they consign to a perpetual inferno, is enough to shock the religious sensibilities of those who know God as a merciful heavenly Father.

What can be said of ministers of the gospel (good news, glad tidings) who consign men to an endless hell of misery, without warrant of Scripture, or by grossly distorting the Word of God, and then gloat over it, as the following from the pen of Dr. Torrey shows? He said:
"If after men have sinned and God still offers mercy, and makes the tremendous sacrifice of His Son to save them. If they still despise that mercy and trample God's Son underfoot. If then they are consigned to everlasting torment, I say: "Amen! Hallelujah!"—Torrey's What the Bible Teaches, Page 312.

With the foregoing quotation before us it must be clear to all that a doctrine that can lead men to rejoice at suffering and to shout "Amen" and "Hallelujah" at torture and distress, is soul-hardening, conscience searing and God dishonoring, and should be rejected by all who love the God of truth.
(...)
Meaning of the word "Hell"

The English word hell comes from the same Teutonic root as heal, hall, hull, hold: It originally meant—to cover, conceal, make whole, to restore to health, and no doubt when first used in connection with the wicked, it was intended to indicate their concealment; gradually, however, it lost its original meaning as many other old English words, whose original meaning could hardly be recognized by their modern usage.

The word hell is so ambiguous in its original meaning that it is hard to determine, from the word itself, what thought it was meant to convey or the reason for its use. It is certain, however, that the word hell as used in our English Bibles is translated from words which do not have the same meaning at all. The fact that three different words, having as many different meanings, are translated hell, should lead to honest inquiry, investigation and study.

The word "hell" occurs fifty-three times in the Bible (King James version); thirty- one times in the Old Testament, and twenty-two times in the New Testament.

In every one of the thirty-one times that the word hell is found in the Old Testament, it is translated from the Hebrew word sheol, and means the grave. The same Hebrew word sheol is also translated "grave" thirty-one times and "the pit" three times.

Why the word sheol, which appears sixty-five times in Hebrew Old Testament, should be translated hell thirty-one times, or even once, is beyond reason.

In the New Testament the word hell is translated from the Greek words hades, ten times, gehenna, eleven times, and from tartaroo just once.
(...)

http://www.biblestudy.org/basicart/are-we-all-going-straight-to-hell-1.html

[Zebedeo]

36. I am communicating in the English language

because it is my primary language and the one used most often by posters on this board. The instances chronicled in the Bible in which Jesus spoke of Hell were not in the English language. And I never said or implied that they were. But you already knew that.

Jesus spoke of Hell as a place of eternal torment, with fire and burning of those who were consigned to that fate. Whatever name was used, in whatever language - Aramaic, Greek, or other - makes no difference to the truth of this point.

[Why Syzygy]

38. I don't think

you are informed enough on this topic to be in a position of influence to anyone else.
It seems to me you are happy enough to accept the word of the Haters without even beginning an investigation of your own.

If he was speaking of eternal torment, then which one of these words was originally intended before the meaning of the word was corrupted/changed over time?
The English word hell comes from the same Teutonic root as heal, hall, hull, hold
Maybe even "heal"? Do you know what the symbol of fire represents?
Do you take every word in the Bible literally?

[Zebedeo]

45. Yes, if I disagree with you, I must be an uninformed dolt.

You wasted no time in resorting to the personal insults. What a shame. I simply pointed out how wrong an author was who suggested that Jesus only spoke of Hell four times. It was an utterly stupid conclusion for that author to draw - or it was an attempt to distort and deceive - probably the latter.

The etymology of the English word "Hell" is irrelevant to the issue of whether Jesus warned of a place of eternal torment. He did, and did so repeatedly and emphatically, and no amount of modern-day revisionism or etymological games will ever change that truth.

The Bible is the Word of God, and I do "take it" literally, but not literalistically. Jesus spoke in parables and used metaphors and similes, and in fact the Bible is chock full of metaphorical writing. Here's an easy example: "Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light for my path." Psalm 119:105 Of course that doesn't mean that God's Word is literalistically a physical lamp. It is, however, an entirely true statement, written in a poetic style.

Jesus' teachings about Hell are not written in a metaphorical style at all. They are somber and serious warnings about the consequences of sin.

If you think that my belief in the truth of Scripture makes me a "Hater," or one who "accepts the word of the Haters," perhaps you are the one who is a hater.

If you want to let go of that pride, soften your heart and read the Bible with an open and receptive mind - if you put away your snarkiness and cynicism and genuinely let yourself be open to the truth of the Word, the Holy Spirit will indwell you and lead you to the Lord, who will save your immortal soul.

Or, you can think of a snappy one-liner put-down and have a big laugh at my simple-minded faith.

[Why Syzygy]

46. None of the above.

I would not want to belong to or be touched by a god who would sponsor your hell.
My God would do no such thing.

I have no idea how to write a snappy one-liner put-down; and I do not laugh at personal failings.

I will continue to pray for those you accost with this hate story, as I have throughout today.

[Zebedeo]

47. Well, that's a start!

It's a step in the right direction that you are praying at all. BTW, the Bible is a love story.

[Why Syzygy]

You don't know me at all.

And I'll go ahead and just put your ignorant replies on Ignore.

[Why Syzygy]

48. .

[laconicsax]

37. Didn't you know?

In 1611, God came down and handed King James of England a leather-bound first edition copy of the Bible. All other versions (especially earlier ones and those in other languages) are heretical.

[Why Syzygy]

40. Yes of course! The Romans were never motivated

to terrorize anyone into submission!

This post begs for :sarcasm:

[piratefish08]

52. Fundies = Funny!

[JerseygirlCT]

18. Disagree

Why would grace be something doled out in limited quantities?

A loving God is just that. Those who need to separate people into "good" and "bad" are doing so out of a human compulsion to be sure they're in with the in crowd. I don't believe for a second that God works that way at all.

[laconicsax]

19. When all else fails, use threats.

Never minds that after the first trillion or so years of eternity, heaven and hell would be pretty indistinguishable.

Who would really want to live forever in an eternal paradise? How long would it take before mind-numbing boredom sets in and becomes torturous?

[Strong Atheist]

20. I have thought on that; doing everything for the hundreth, thousandth,

millionth, billionth...


... time...

[laconicsax]

28. That boredom when applied to a certain deity could explain some things...

[Odin2005]

21. "Hell is other people" --Jean-Paul Sartre n/t

[SidneyCarton]

25. The longer I read the thoughts others post on the internet,

The more I believe Sartre was right.

[DeSwiss]

23. ....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SF6I5VSZVqc">'Hell' as an invention of the church

[Strong Atheist]

24. Cant see movies on my computer, but I agree with the words... nt.

[DeSwiss]

26. That was an interview (I believe from some time back w/ NBC) with....

http://www.amazon.com/Why-Christianity-Must-Change-Die/dp/0060675365">John Shelby Spong, retired Episcopal bishop from Newark, N.J., who talks about why Christianity must change its view of hell. Spong is one of the leading spokepersons for liberal Christianity. He is in fact not well liked by Fundies and their ilk. He's the guy they have a picture in their heads of when someone from the flock of sheeple mentions "phony Christians."

He's one of the few religious types I can tolerate and won't click "off" automatically. Here's one of my all-time favs of his:

http://www.baptistwatch.org/content/spongfalwell.html">Open Letter to the Rev. Jerry Falwell

Who do you think you're fooling?
by Bishop John Shelby Spong

Dear Jerry:

I know you were pleased to be present at the Republican National Convention, even though the space provided for you, Pat Robertson and the other members of the religious right was greatly diminished this year. Clearly someone recognized that the rhetoric of religious hostility and cultural warfare in 1996 had contributed to the losing candidacy of Bob Dole and was simply not going to be allowed again. So we saw a kinder, gentler, more inclusive Republican convention and hence less time for people like you. But, as you know, there is a lot of dead time in the typical convention and media people look for a chance to create excitement. So you were not totally forgotten.

When an openly gay Republican congressmen was assigned to speak on world trade, you were there, ready to be interviewed. As usual most of what you had to say was about sex and your negativity toward homosexuality was not hidden by your wan smile or your solemn statements. Your comments were typical.

"As a Christian, I regard homosexuality as a sin," you said. "It is clearly condemned in the Bible."

You went on to say that God loves sinners and you even admitted, rather humbly I thought, that you are yourself numbered among that group. It was a clever tactic designed to show that Christianity, the Bible and the opinions of Jerry Falwell were mutually supportive, indeed almost identical. But, Jerry, you know that rhetoric won't wash. I, too, am a Christian, Jerry, and I do not regard homosexuality as sin.

http://www.baptistwatch.org/content/spongfalwell.html#You need to educate yourself about homosexuality">MORE

[Strong Atheist]

29. Read it all Very good. Agreed. nt.

[54anickel]

56. A clip of the Spong interview on YouTube - I just happened across it today.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SF6I5VSZVqc

[conscious evolution]

31. For a masochist

hell would be heaven.
And for a sadist heaven would be hell.

That one always makes the fundies heads explode.

[spin]

49. Interesting, never thought of it that way. (n/t)

[Lydia Leftcoast]

35. Jesus does condemn the rich man to hell (the only individual he explicitly

condemns, as I recall) for neglecting the beggar at his gate.

However, there is nothing to suggest that it's eternal torment.

Revelation has been controversial throughout its history. The traditional attribution is to the author of the Gospel of John, but according to those who know Greek, the writing styles of the two authors are completely different. The Gospel John is an elegant writer, while the Revelation John is ungrammatical and awkward. Martin Luther didn't want to include it in his translation of the Bible into German.

Because of its vivid portrayals of hell, Revelation is a favorite of hellfire and brimstone preachers, but modern opinion is that it was a fantasy for Christians undergoing persecution.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

51. I agree with Lin Yutang.

"If I don't have a body after I am dead, how can they torment me in Hell?"

--Lin Yutang, THE IMPORTANCE OF LIVING, 1936.

[rd_kent]

53. Hell is fear. Without fear there is no control.

Religion NEEDS fear to control the congregation. No fear, no control.