U.S. Christianity--the broader picture

[clear eye]

Many on this forum have been smearing all U.S. Christians w/ a broad brush, accusing them all of fundamentalism and an absence of critical thinking skills simply for believing. There is wide cheering for the downfall of Christianity. This is at odds w/ the broad tolerance on other DU forums of different styles of life and perspectives w/i the progressive community. The denigration has reached a level that is driving many believers away from DU and causing others to be afraid to express their opinions. This sort of mob rule seems inappropriate at DU.

There is a case to be made for not being so ready to denigrate activists w/ Sojourners, Catholics in Alliance for the Common Good, the American Friends Service Committee, and the Witherspoon Society, who are part of U.S. Christianity. If Christian-hating DUers are not knowledgeable about these groups, they would find it helpful to dispel their ignorance regarding them when forming their picture of Christians in general. It also doesn't hurt to remember that some of the people most courageous in helping others, such as the abolitionist, John Brown, drew sustenance from their Christian faith. I wouldn't characterize them or the leadership of the Christian social justice organizations as short on critical thinking skills.

While religion has been used to justify some atrocious behavior, so have patriotism, belief in the "free market", communism, and other secular tenets. Even fanatic loyalty to a political party has inspired some to betray commonly held morality. As for that commonly held morality--in the U.S., a lot of that spirit of social justice and tolerance comes from Christian teachings. It is common to rebut Fundie hate w/ quotes from the New Testament. I wonder what sort of a place we would be w/o both the Ten Commandments and passages from the Sermon on the Mount engraved on the sub-consciouses of almost all of us, Christian or otherwise?

Humans have failings which they will justify w/ whatever is at hand. IMHO, we should celebrate the spirit that moves people to act for the common good, strive to understand and do better, whatever its source.

[RaleighNCDUer]

1. Methinks thou dost protest too much.

If the good churches don't want to be associated with the crazy fundies they need to SPEAK OUT AGAINST THEM.

Instead, they close ranks and call attacks on the crazy fundies attacks on ALL Xtians.

Take the log from your own fucking eye.

[JerseygirlCT]

2. You make little sense there

First you assume that more progressive churches do not speak out against the hatred.

Secondly you assume that doing so would have any impact.

And I've no idea what you mean by closing ranks in this instance.

[RaleighNCDUer]

7. Speaking out against 'the hatred' (whatever that is supposed to mean)

and speaking out against the insane churches are two very different things.

While PEOPLE were concerned, and scared, about what Jim Jones was doing, the churches in San Francisco NEVER criticized the People's Temple. Not until he murdered 95% of his congregation. It was clear he was an insane megalomaniac with a martyr complex, but no church will criticize another church.

Ditto for David Koresh. Ditto for the Christian Identity.

Liberal protestant churches see the Catholic church's position on birth control as a doctrinal difference - none will ever make an official pronouncement that the Catholic church is responsible for the deaths of tens of thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands of people every year because it is against using condoms. Many churches take a position against the death penalty, but what church has ever criticized another one for NOT being against the death penalty?

Most, if not all, churches refuse to criticize other church, cults or con games like scientology because they know that fundamentally their core beliefs are founded on just as fragile ideas as those which are batshit insane, so to criticize one is to criticize all.

And THAT is why people even here object to "bashing christians", even when the obvious targets are not liberal mainstream churches but crazy fundies - because essentially, they know there is no difference.

[FiveGoodMen]

5. "they need to SPEAK OUT AGAINST THEM"

Exactly.

I know there are some who do just that.

But either there aren't very many, or they aren't yelling loud enough.

[trotsky]

3. Well, to start with, your first sentence is false.

But I do understand that for many Christians, having to imagine oneself being an oppressed martyr is crucial to thinking you're doing it right.

And I'm gonna have to nitpick at one particular thing you said:

a lot of that spirit of social justice and tolerance comes from Christian teachings

This is simply not true. The "spirit of social justice and tolerance" predates Christianity by centuries, if not millenia. To the contrary, the bible is chock full of ideas that go totally against those themes. Why did Jesus outline the conditions under which you could beat your slaves instead of saying that slavery was morally wrong? Why were all 12 disciples men? Why did your god allow Paul's misogyny to end up in the final product? Where are the concepts of democracy, reproductive and sexual freedom, and the right to self-determination found in your holy book?

[clear eye]

8. I am not permitted to cite instances I refer to in my first line.

I find it amusing that you think I have to be Christian to speak out against anti-Christian bigotry on this forum. In fact, I am not. Nor do I see majority Christians as martyrs in this country, or even on DU. But recent reading of this forum has shown such relentless negative generalizations that I've become disturbed by the intolerance, and progressive Christian voices have almost fallen silent.

I stand by what I have written. In this country much of our understanding of social justice and tolerance is cemented by memories of such phrases as "let he who is w/o sin cast the first stone", and "the love of money is the root of all evil".

Is it too much to ask posters to imagine the impact of their words on sincere progressive Democratic-voting Christians when they write, so as not turn some wonderful welcome energy away from DU?

[trotsky]

11. So, you really think the first time those ideas appeared was in the bible, huh?

Alrighty then. No sense in wasting any more time pointing out history to you.

Is it too much to ask posters to imagine the impact of their words on sincere progressive Democratic-voting Christians when they write, so as not turn some wonderful welcome energy away from DU?

I have seen horrible, nasty things written about atheists here too. And I'll even give you a link: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=4365017#4365080

Does this make me worry that DU is scaring off non-believers? Nope. It's a freaking obscure anonymous discussion board on the Internet. We have intense arguments on just about EVERY subject - and so what? It is only when the topic turns to religion that we are admonished about needing to put on the kid gloves and defer to this glorious force that (as people like you apparently believe) is the font of all that is liberal and good and pure.

No, it's when people like you have to start breaking out the THREATS (oh, horrors, Christians will vote for Sarah Palin because they read a mildly disrespectful post on an anonymous message board!) that I know where the truth lies.

[darkstar3]

12. trotsky, why do you rock so hard? n/t

:hi:

[trotsky]

13. Probably because I'm an intolerant fundie atheist.

Just a guess.

[Sal316]

14. More strawmen

"So, you really think the first time those ideas appeared was in the bible, huh?

The OP never said nor insinuated that.

[trotsky]

16. Any criticism from you is laughable.

Mote, eye, stick, yada yada yada. Read the bible you think you know so well.

[Sal316]

17. Considering you're so concerned about accuracy.....

.....one would think that you wouldn't just make things up out of whole cloth.

Guess that was wrong.

[trotsky]

18. And considering you've shown NO concern about accuracy,

you're a fine one to try and criticize others when you think you see inaccuracy. Go try and be more Christ-like.

[endarkenment]

4. 1700 years of hypocrisy is enough.

"I wonder what sort of a place we would be w/o both the Ten Commandments and passages from the Sermon on the Mount engrained on the sub-consciouses of almost all of us, Christian or otherwise?"

The vast majority of organized christian religious institutions have ignored the sermon on the mount in its entirety and most of the ten commandments in practice since Constantine established the Roman Church as the state religion in the 300s.

The history since then has been a horror show of persecution and intolerance. Oh yes there are exceptions. Those exceptions illustrate how deranged the norm is.

[MineralMan]

6. Many? How many?

Believing that all religion is based on flawed logic is not a condemnation. It is just an opinion. As for condemning Christians, I am very careful to use the words "fundy," "fundamentalist," or "Christian Right" when I criticize Christians who act in the way those people do.

I don't really care what people believe. It's irrelevant to me. I care how they behave. The Christians on the Right behave badly, so I call them out for it.

If you are not among their number, I have no brief with you.

As for your assertion that the Ten Commandments, and other Biblical passages being engraved on the subconciousness of us all, you're quite wrong. Those passages support common morality from most, if not all religions. Christianity is unique only in its belief in a Trinity. The moral advice isn't even original to it, having derived or developed independently from earlier religions.

I am an atheist. I have a broad knowledge of the scriptures of several of the world's religions. I do quote scripture from time to time, since Christians claim to base their religion on it.

You are drawing too large a circle around those who disapprove of what some Christians do. You're identifying yourself with ALL Christians and taking criticisms of SOME Christians as a criticism of yourself.

[clear eye]

9. I'm glad you're careful to distinguish. Many posters are not.

Go back and reread the threads of the last couple of weeks carefully, imagining yourself as a progressive, broadly tolerant Christian active in the social justice movement while reading them.

[MineralMan]

10. I don't read a lot in this forum, frankly.

I recently posted a poll, in response to a poll calling atheists intolerant.

Seems to me that there are folks working from both sides who are intolerant. I dislike religious arguments these days. They're nonproductive. Too many people taking offense where none was offered.

[ZombieHorde]

15. Cool avatar. I dig it.

"There is wide cheering for the downfall of Christianity."

I would love to see Christian and Islamic ideologies become less and less popular.

"This is at odds w/ the broad tolerance on other DU forums of different styles of life and perspectives w/i the progressive community."

This is not true. Religious beliefs are nothing more than opinions, and opinions are often argued against and attacked here on DU.

"The denigration has reached a level that is driving many believers away from DU and causing others to be afraid to express their opinions."

I have been called names, such as "fucking idiot", for my opinions, but I still post and have a fun time on DU.

"This sort of mob rule seems inappropriate at DU."

There is no mob rule here on DU, just people posting there opinions. If someone posts personal attacks, those posts can be alerted, and the mods will remove them.

"It also doesn't hurt to remember that some of the people most courageous in helping others, such as the abolitionist, John Brown, drew sustenance from their Christian faith."

I agree many people have gained strength through religion, but people have also gained weakness from religion. The Holy Bible is pro-slavery, so John Brown had to go against his own religion in order to do the right thing.

"While religion has been used to justify some atrocious behavior, so have patriotism, belief in the "free market", communism, and other secular tenets. Even fanatic loyalty to a political party has inspired some to betray commonly held morality."

Good point.

"As for that commonly held morality--in the U.S., a lot of that spirit of social justice and tolerance comes from Christian teachings."

Will you offer an example of "commonly held morality"?

[Jim__]

19. I agree. But it's not just Christianity but all religions that tend to be ridiculed.

It amazes me that people that claim to be rationalists will ridicule a position that they cannot disprove, in the defense of another position that they cannot prove. The fact that we can neither prove nor disprove claims about ultimate causes, origins, etc, demands that we should be tolerant of differing views on these questions.