"Jesus" Inspired Ghandi & MLK. Atheists - What Have You Got to Match That?

[NashVegas]

Admittedly, I'm a pragmatist at best.

But I'm coming around to the idea that rationalism ain't always all that.

As much as I am down with Humanism, I can't think of that many instances where anyone successfully fought off "the man" using Nietzsche as an example.

[struggle4progress]

1. Gandhi was actually Hindu and appealed to the Gita

[H2O Man]

2. Gandhi was a Hindu

who understood and fully appreciated the appeal of all religions. He spoke of Jesus frequently.

[NashVegas]

4. *Really*?

You mean he wasn't inspired by the mythological figure of Christ, and was instead inspired by a different RELIGION and RELIGIOUS text?

Not exactly an answer to my challenge, is it?

[H2O Man]

66. Actually, Gandhi

spoke of his being influenced by the historic Jesus, not the mythological figure.

[Goblinmonger]

68. The he was ignorant in that regard

What's your proof of a historical Jesus.

[H2O Man]

75. Ha!

[Goblinmonger]

80. My point is that it is all mythology

and not really meeting the OP.

Unless you have unearthed some historical proof of Jesus (and you know the problems with Josephus, I would think).

[H2O Man]

92. Questions regarding

the reality of a man named Jesus present a wonderful exercise for first-year college students. I think they are great. Anyone, however, that concludes that Gandhi was "ignorant" as a result of his belief that there was such a man definitely fails the test.

Enjoy this day.

[JuniperLea]

143. Myths can be inspirational too...

I don't see why there's a need to prove anyone actually existed. The story, the proverbs, that's the inspiration. Much like Aesop's fables... unless you think that all the little critters noted therein need to be proved real.

[NashVegas]

70. Well That's Even More Concrete

But as you can probably tell from my posts in this thread, it's the mythological aspect I'm more interested in.

I put Jesus in quotes to designate a short cut to the Christ-figure, which is seen in many religions, just as the man was in quotes to designate a controlling oppressor.

Even Martin Luther used religion to throw off the RC church, there's a trick for you.

[struggle4progress]

176. Gandhi very pointedly and deliberately remained Hindu. There seems to be no question

that Gandhi had at least a very deep attraction to some of the gospel sayings. But he seems to work out his views within Hinduism. It is perhaps also worth saying that Gandhi does not regard his approach as irrational: he thinks he is working out Truth by an experimental method -- and he apparently regarded Jesus not only as a miracle-worker, but as a miracle-worker of a sort that any of the rest of us could become

So your thesis that Gandhi was influenced by an irrational and mythical Christ-figure doesn't really accord with Gandhi's views. And from a Christian perspective, if one wants to be historically accurate about Gandhi, it might be more accurate to say that Gandhi, although Hindu, cast some profound light on Christianity and nonviolence

[deutsey]

130. True, but he also was influenced by tenets of Christianity and other religions n/t

[PassingFair]

179. He was also influenced by Atheists. Cripes, his second in command, Nehru...

was an atheist.

One of many famous Indian Atheists is "Gora".

Rabindranath Tagore was also an Atheist.

Babasahib Ambedkar was an atheist who chose to
convert to Buddhism to fight the caste system.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goparaju_Ramachandra_Rao

Many atheists contributed to India's independence,
and Gandhi became more convinced of the positive
results of atheism the more he learned.

[deutsey]

180. Right, he was very much Vedantic in his worldview, imo.

Vedanta, I think, blows the circuitry of theists and atheists alike.

[Fumesucker]

3. Nothing, perhaps it should be mandatory that everyone be theists..

Theists get so much more accomplished than atheists, not to mention theists are so much more moral than atheists.





























:sarcasm: for those whose sarcasmometer has burned out from overload.

[NashVegas]

5. Or Maybe ...

Some of us have had enough of atheism proponents' ridiculous belief in their own intellectual superiority.

[TBF]

7. That goes both ways. nt

[JuniperLea]

19. Are you saying you're a Christian?

I'm finding that hard to believe... all this judgmental BS and all... Jesus expressly forbids that action, in case you didn't know.

[Fumesucker]

20. And some of us have had enough of theism proponent's ridiculous belief..

In their own moral superiority.

[EOTE]

30. You poor, persecuted Christian!

I know how incredibly tough things must be for you, being persecuted by those awful atheists day after day. I'm sure your sky-daddy has got something really special planned for you in the afterlife. You deserve it after having to deal with all those pointy headed atheists.

[Edweird]

38. Lashing out at imaginary militant atheists?

[kctim]

41. Amen to that

As an atheist myself, I know I am tired of that smug crap.

[EOTE]

48. Quick question for you.

If you found yourself living in a land where a good number of the people believed in magical deities who could resurrect themselves and who believed a religious text that was absolutely loaded with inaccuracies, would you feel intellectually superior to them? Or would you call them one of your own?

[NashVegas]

53. I Just Might

Take the first option, but would hopefully not feel the need to crow about it.

[EOTE]

54. Who the fuck is crowing about anything?

ONE group decides to put out some billboards amongst the MILLIONS of incidences of christian propaganda we see every freaking day and you call that crowing? I'm guessing you feel just fine about the gays, right? Up until the point they start "flaunting" their gayness everywhere, then they've gone too far. If you have to build up imaginary enemies in your head, you're not really persecuted.

[trotsky]

58. Hey! Ix-nay on the illboards-bay!

We don't want word leaking out that the Great Atheist Plan is proceeding on schedule.

1. Have some atheists publish books.
2. Put up a billboard in New Jersey.
3. Murder all Christians.

Can't you see the logical progression?!?

[EOTE]

65. You're missing a step there.

You forgot about replacing all airings of "The 700 Club" with lectures by Richard Dawkins. Other than that, we're good to go.

[SidDithers]

76. forgot steps 4 and 5...

4. ???
5. Profit


Sid

[cleanhippie]

103. Profit? maybe.

But for now, the religious have a LOCK on profiting from their beliefs. Its how they survive. If it weren't profitable, it would go away overnight.

[mudplanet]

56. It's strange that you focus on the hubris of some atheists. Isn't it more

likely that the arrogant atheists you're speaking of are like the arrogant and hostile Christians I have had to live with my whole life, which is to say, the arrogant ones are the minority.

But still, I can't refute that, when confronted by some jerk who thinks my lack of faith is an object of scorn, the thought crosses my mind that it's ironic that my intelligence is being mocked by a proponent of the "invisible man in the sky that loves you very much but if you don't do exactly what the idiot laughing at you says he wants you to do he'll throw you into a lake of fire for all eternity" theory.

I'll go to church with anyone, at least once. But experiences like being invited to a prayer breakfast and having the speaker talk about how stupid agnostics are just don't persuade me. Or people that believe that when you die you get a private planet where you'll live forever as a god. Or people that claim at a business lunch that the reason they've succeeded so well is because everything they do they do "for Jesus," when its pretty obvious they are so self-serving as to easily diagnosed as a narcissist.

It's fine if you have faith, I wouldn't attack your intelligence for that. Unless you insist that there is some sort of empirical proof backing up your beliefs, in which case I'd think (but not say) that you're delusional, disingenuous, or just plain stupid.

[Zoeisright]

82. Heh. ha. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!

God, what a stupid post. You certainly tipped your hand there. Because you swallow a fairy tale, that is a HUGE business, hook line and sinker, you diss other people for not being duped?

Buh bye.

[cleanhippie]

99. Uh, atheists don't have belief. Thats what makes them atheists.

[tpsbmam]

107. Some of us are tired as hell of the stereotypes pushed by the right...and a few on the left....

about atheists & agnostics. I have NEVER.....read it and search if you want....I have NEVER put anyone down because of their religious beliefs. Not once. I have never referred to those beliefs as belief in superstitions or any other pejorative. I respect peoples' religious beliefs and I show it in the way I speak about those beliefs and about those people. And I know that there is a wide spectrum of Christian belief in terms of what people believe and how that is expressed in modern society. There are some that use their beliefs as a weapon to oppress others and there are those who use the same Bible & beliefs to open their arms to welcome everyone and make the world a better place.

What I'm fucking fed up with is people who lump ALL atheists & agnostics together and don't give us the same degree of respect that I accord to you. So I say with all due respect to your beliefs, fuck off to anyone who is bigoted against me because I don't share your beliefs!

:grr:

[superduperfarleft]

140. If you believe in magic, it's not my fault that I think it's stupid. n/t

[Ozymanithrax]

6. Jesus also inspired...

the Crusdes, the Klu Klux Klan, forcing Christianity on the American Indians, mass murders and Conversions throughout America, people who burn witches, all the anti-gay rhetric in the U.S., Palin, etc. etc. etc.

Are you really sure you want to pull that two edged out of its scabard.

And I'm an agnostic.

[NashVegas]

17. Inspiration? Or Excuse?

Would love to get into it, but I'm still looking for examples where a famous atheist figure helped inspire someone to, say, go into Appalachia and build modern plumbing into residents' homes with donated labor.

[Ozymanithrax]

29. They are Christians inspired by the Christian message...

Jesus also inspired the inquisition, Catholic priests who molest children, Catholic priest who forgive Catholic priests who molest children. I could go on for a long time and not touch the sins of other religions.

You can not strip away the bad things inspired by faith from the good anymore than you can strip away the equal and opposite reaction from an action.

As an individual, you can accentuate the positive aspects of religion and fight against its negatives.

[Flubadubya]

39. Here's one for you...

The Buddha inspired the Eastern world specifically, and actually changed the whole world generally.

Many great and wonderful things have been done because of his influence and, yes, he was atheistic... divine, but atheistic! O8)

[Ozymanithrax]

40. Check out Secular humanism...

http://www.secularhumanism.org/

The idea the morality and ethics comes from our being human not dictated by a beneficient God.

[sinkingfeeling]

59. Start looking through this list..

http://www.celebatheists.com/wiki/Main_Page


A quick search of Google will bring up many current examples of atheists helping their fellow human beings. Here's a single example:

http://friendlyatheist.com/2009/11/04/atheists-helping-the-homeless/

By the way, if you think you're a humanist, you're missing a whole hell of a lot of the philosophy behind it.

"In general, Humanists place a great deal of emphasis on living a full life, with a rich variety of experiences and accomplishments, and in contributing to the quality of life of others as well. If you try to live each day of your life in such a way as to try to make the world a little bit better place, you are living humanistically."

http://www.progressiveliving.org/humanism_faq.htm

[RainDog]

147. Pastors told the puritans who migrated that god had cleared the land for them

The Wampanoag tribe had experienced a plague of some sort just before the first pilgrims arrived.

As the Puritans moved onto more and more of the land that was the hunting area for various tribes, they accidentally killed many in the native populations with diseases for which the Amerindians had no immunity.

This was considered a sign from god, by the Puritans, that god was giving them the land.

So, yes, Christianity directly inspired the Puritans to claim they could take over land that was considered the territory of others.

[demwing]

216. False. Absolutely False

"Belief in Jesus" is just the shield that some assholes use to justify the Crusades, the Ku Klux Klan, forcing Christianity on the American Indians, mass murders and Conversions throughout America, people who burn witches, all the anti-gay rhetoric in the U.S., Palin, etc. etc. etc.

There is nothing in the teachings of Jesus that promote any of those things.

And I'm speaking as someone on the outside of Christianity looking in.

[joeybee12]

8. Jesus inspired countless wars...

can't say people fought a war over an athesist's beliefs.

[originalpckelly]

69. Um, weren't the communists atheists?

[joeybee12]

90. Did they actually fight OVER that? nt

[MedicalAdmin]

104. Communism was a state religion in a way.

In post ww2 russia, it played out as Stalin worship.

[Speck Tater]

9. Jesus also inspired the Inbquisition, the Crusades, the Salem Witch trials,

period waves of anti-Semitism, the slaughter of Central American peoples and the destruction of their culture, including the church-ordered destruction of every Aztec document that the priests could lay their hands on.

More modernly, Jesus has inspired the Westboro Bapstist Church and their "God Hates Fags" movement, and any number of Christian fundamentalist hate groups, racist organizations and militias bent on establish theocracy in America.

So the good done in God's name has to be balanced by the evil done in God's name.

The fact is Humans, while capable of great wisdom and altruism, are a defective species that will use any justification, including various gods and religions, for their unfathomable evils.

[bluetrain]

10. Oh, c'mon, Jesus was the first recorded Captain Deathwish. You really think Nietzsche

was MORE into suffering that your ol' boy Jesus? Please.

[NashVegas]

77. LOL

=)

[TlalocW]

11. James Randi

Admittedly, I'm not an atheist, but he has inspired me.

TlalocW

[MedicalAdmin]

117. James Randi - the original "to catch a thief"

All hail the great self promoting skeptic - and while you are at the website please make a donation. He accepts all major credit cards.

I'm not a big fan - can you tell?

[TlalocW]

122. Well, it is technically a non-profit foundation he's running... and

He gets sued or threatened with lawsuits a lot, but I admire him for trying to promote scientific thinking to the general populace as I've dabbled in both science and conjuring (but not witchcraft), and it pisses me off when concepts from both are abused.

TlalocW

[immoderate]

219. Why be a fan of someone who's life's work is promoting truth and rationality?

It's not for everybody.

--imm

[SidDithers]

12. I'm inspired by Frodo Baggins, who, like Jesus...

was a fictional character.

Sid

[JuniperLea]

22. Heh! Sid, I swear you are a kin to my pal...

His name is Seamus... he's an ex-seminarian suffering all the trappings of his Irish Catholic upbringing.

This comment, and so many of your comments, totally ring of Seamus!

And that's a good thing;)

[SidDithers]

23. Any friend of yours...

:hi:

Sid

[JuniperLea]

13. All those guys... and Rumi... and Mother Theresa...

Where is it written that Atheists cannot be inspired by spiritual people? I love spiritual people! Religious people, however, scare the fucking hell out of me.

[NashVegas]

88. The Deeper Question

Which was lost on many, was, how many historical figures have inspired thousands, perhaps tens of thousands, of others to stand up to an armed oppressor, and risk letting that oppressor kick the shit out of them, to achieve a goal?

[RainDog]

137. Greeks and Romans inspired the founders of the U.S.

as well as those who propagated the French Revolution.

The idea of democracy was pagan.

[NashVegas]

150. They Weren't Known

to be atheists, either. They just had a different set of gods.

[RainDog]

168. They also didn't create the American revolution

The founders didn't look to Greek and Roman myths - they looked to their philosophical writings on government and the people, etc.

Democracy is considered the work of a poet, Solon, if you want to really get all foundational about it. So, I guess you could say a poet has been the most influential person in all of western history, in terms of government and throwing off the yoke of oppressors.

I noted the Greeks and Romans were pagan b/c you specifically talk about Jesus - but if you want to include polytheism and monotheisms like Islam to discuss how great religion is for people who are struggling... okay by me.

But the philosophy of the ancient Greeks and Romans was not the same as their myths.

[JuniperLea]

138. If you wanted an answer to your "deeper question"

You should have asked it in your OP... now it just looks like you're moving the goalpost...

[NashVegas]

152. It Was Already There

Some people chose not to read into it. I could have chosen anyone who ever did anything great, but chose those two, specifically, for their non-violent tactics that put peoples' immediate self-interests in jeopardy.

[JuniperLea]

174. So you want people to "read into" your OP?

That leaves it wide open for interpretation. I believe an OP should be complete and comprehensive and that they should leave nothing to the imagination. Otherwise, when the poster of the OP comes back and interjects things they say should have been "read into" it appears to be an action akin to moving the goalpost. I believe that's what you're doing here.

[skepticscott]

196. Uh, did you forget about

Thomas Paine?

[eShirl]

14. All of humanity?

[BoneDaddy]

15. I think your point is

that atheists often throw the baby out with the bathwater regarding the impact of Jesus and Christianity and claim to have their own sense of absolute clarity on the truth.

I often find some atheists to be as sure in their correctness as fundamentalists do from their own particular brand of religion.

I find any real surety is absolute hubris and impossible to prove or disprove.

Now, if you want to debate the infantile view of God by many religions, atheists win hands down.

[NashVegas]

45. Basically

There's a lot of hypocrisy out there and people are angry. I get that. Better than most.

Elsewhere in this thread I used the example of someone doing specific missionary work. Are they tools? Maybe. But if they are unaware of any underlying motivation (say a contract to sell toilets for Uncle Ray), who am I to destroy that?

[BurtWorm]

16. What was the Enlightenment then? Chopped liver?

[Name removed]

89. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[PassingFair]

181. The OP is so full of FAIL and IGNORANCE....

I really don't know where to start.

[Amaril]

18. Nice try

Albert Einstein
Ernest Hemingway
Charles Darwin
Mark Twain
Sigmund Freud
Ayn Rand

and more contemporary

Carl Sagan
Noam Chomsky
George Carlin
Richard Dawkins
Stephen Hawking
John Lennon
Bill Maher
Seth MacFarlane

Just to name a few. All atheist / agnostic. All influential thinkers.

[Brickbat]

28. Some more -- influential thinkers and leaders...

Elizabeth Cady Stanton, Rebecca West, Emma Goldman, Margaret Sanger, Che.

[NashVegas]

32. Einstein Was Not An Atheist

He was religious tease, is about the only knowing thing that could be said.

I'm not going to go looking up the particulars of your others, but again, ask: how did any of them inspire a people to successfully fight against an oppressor?

[Brickbat]

44. Do you mean like Lenin? Also, religion or the inspiration of Jesus is not the only reason people

are inspired to fight off an oppressor. See also the labor movement.

[RainDog]

46. Einstein most certainly was not a religious believer

Einstein responded to the claims theists made about him - the LIES they continue to spread-

I received your letter of June 10th. I have never talked to a Jesuit priest in my life and I am astonished by the audacity to tell such lies about me. From the viewpoint of a Jesuit priest I am, of course, and have always been an atheist.

- Albert Einstein, letter to Guy H. Raner Jr, July 2, 1945, responding to a rumor that a Jesuit priest had caused Einstein to convert from atheism; quoted by Michael R. Gilmore in Skeptic, Vol. 5, No. 2

---

Through the reading of popular scientific books I soon reached the conviction that much in the stories of the Bible could not be true. The consequence was a positively fanatic orgy of freethinking coupled with the impression that youth is intentionally being deceived by the state through lies; it was a crushing impression. Mistrust of every kind of authority grew out of this experience, a skeptical attitude toward the convictions that were alive in any specific social environment - an attitude that has never again left me, even though, later on, it has been tempered by a better insight into the causal connections.

- Albert Einstein, Autobiographical Notes, edited by Paul Arthur Schilpp

---

I have repeatedly said that in my opinion the idea of a personal God is a childlike one. You may call me an agnostic, but I do not share the crusading spirit of the professional atheist whose fervor is mostly due to a painful act of liberation from the fetters of religious indoctrination received in youth. I prefer an attitude of humility corresponding to the weakness of our intellectual understanding of nature and of our own being.

- Albert Einstein, letter to Guy H. Raner Jr., Sept. 28, 1949, quoted by Michael R. Gilmore in Skeptic, Vol. 5, No. 2

here Einstein is saying... don't call me an atheist because I don't want to have to spend my time defending my lack of belief - that's nothing like saying he believes.

[NashVegas]

93. Einstein Was a Tease

Who never came down definitely one way or the other. Theists and atheists both want to claim him for their own, neither really can. He has left too much in writing indicating mixed sentiments.

[RainDog]

134. He definitively stated that he thought the bible was like a fairytale for children

I don't think you can get much more definitive than that.

He stated that christians would consider him an atheist - and, as a Jewish person, he undoubtedly did not believe in the divinity of Jesus.

What he said was that he was open to consider the universe as part of a idea of some sort of godness - which is, again, nothing like traditional religious belief that holds an idea of a divinity that is separate from humans.

[Township75]

154. My understanding is that he was a Diest...

meaning he believed that there was a God, but not a personable God that you could pray to and woudl break the laws of physics to help you out or make something occur.

[NashVegas]

165. That's About the Best I've Found

Yet. And still, I'm not sure it's even relevant.

[enlightenment]

141. Boudicca. nt

She wasn't in it for the message.

[RainDog]

21. The Enlightenment. American Democracy. The French Revolution

So, yeah, I've got a match for that.

[RainDog]

24. Albert Einstein

[Township75]

145. was not an aethist...

he was a diest.

Einstein is inaccurately protrayed as a very religious with some of his quotes talking about wanting to know God's thoughts and such. He believed there may be a God, but not a God that intervened in peoples' lives by breaking the laws of science.

[Joe Chi Minh]

182. Not quite. "My religion", he said, "consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable

superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble mind."

He clearly believed that there is a God, but that that the 'illimitable, superior spirit", created the laws of science", so not "altering" or not "ignoring" them would seem a more apt way of expressing it than not "breaking" them. In other words, he was unambiguously theistic. He did not, though, believe in a God that was personal or judgmental.

[Joe Chi Minh]

194. re the susceptibiilty of light to refraction, absorption, etc, well, it does

introduce a further paradoxical aspect to the nature of light, beyond its mysterious arbitrary, absolute, "stand alone" nature.

All the mainstream religions, I believe, as well as earlier sun-worshippers, identify light very closely with God. Christianity claims that God is the light of the world, and indeed, physical light would seem to form a continuum with spiritual light, not inconsistent, it would seem, with the stream of sub-atomic particles that are postulated to have issued from the Singularity at the Big Bang.

What is also striking is that while, like God, it is absolute and essentially exogenous, it subjects itself in various forms to man's manipulation; a kind of parallel with the divine incarnation.

[darkstar3]

195. Perhaps you'd like to expound on this:

"mysterious arbitrary, absolute, "stand alone" nature" of light.

You said, in the deleted subthread, that one of the reasons light had to be apart from the normal universe was because of its complete constancy. Now you realize that said constancy never existed. So how can light still stand apart from the rest of the universe if one of the major reasons you came up with for that idea was the flawed premise of light constancy?

In short, how on earth do you figure that light has this stand alone nature that you claim?

[Name removed]

199. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[darkstar3]

200. Try me.

ETA: Since you didn't bother to even try answering the question and your attack will be deleted, I'll restate:

"In short, how on earth do you figure that light has this stand alone nature that you claim?"

[Joe Chi Minh]

203. If you want to learn about the Cosmic Christ, read the books of the

Jesuit theologian and distinguished palaeontologist, Pierre Teilhard de Chardin.

You talk about what you believe. I talk about what I know. And you will know one day, like it or lump it.

[trotsky]

205. Ah yes, the "last word" for a Christian.

"You'll see - one day you'll be BURNING IN HELL because my ever-loving god decreed it!"

[Name removed]

209. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[trotsky]

212. Yes, I can plainly see that you are anticipating with glee...

the day that all the evil atheists/secularists/scientists will suffer harshly for what they've done.

You are truly made in your god's image.

[darkstar3]

206. Non-sequitur.

I asked you about light. You know, that physical phenomenon that lets you see things? You made quite a claim about it, and I want to know where you came up with it.

Now, would you care to answer the question without an insult?

[Name removed]

207. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

208. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[darkstar3]

210. Wiki isn't a trustworthy source of info, nor is it a textbook.

Furthermore, the oversimplification of the behavior of light is taken as a necessary assumption to introduce students to physics. As you progress beyond the first semester of high school physics, the complex nature of light is revisited again and again, slowly revealing the intricate workings of the particle/wave phenomenon as your comprehension of the subject grows.

No textbooks NEED to be rewritten. They're fine as they are, if you bother to read them. Not that it matters. You admitted above that light is not a universal constant, so you obviously found the correct information somewhere, and it contradicts your original claims about light needing to be apart from this universe.

So, do you have some other explanation as to why you think light must have a "mysterious arbitrary, absolute, "stand alone" nature"?

[Name removed]

211. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[darkstar3]

213. Ignoring your insulting attack on atheists, I say:

A simplifying assumption is not a falsehood by any stretch. Simplifying assumptions are made in the learning process of nearly every discipline in order to gradually progress students toward true proficiency in the field. Look at the word problems near the back of any physics textbook.

"Assume the speed of sound is constant."
"Assume the speed of light is constant."
"Assume a frictionless surface."
"Assume the bear is wearing a bulletproof vest." (One of my personal favorites from high school.)

We do this in order to let students focus on simple application of the basic laws of physics. As their ability to apply basic concepts grows, we introduce more complexity. I don't understand how you don't already know this.

Your use of Wiki doesn't help your case. Wiki is well-known to have discrepancies, outright falsehoods, and bad oversimplifications. If you want to provide proof of something, pick up or find an online copy of a textbook.

Your attempt to classify light as a paradox is still a failure, because light itself has never been constant, which is the assumption upon which all of your "paradox" claims are predicated.

[Joe Chi Minh]

214. Tell me, why does light always hit the earth's surface at its constant speed,

irrespective of the speed and angle at which the earth is turning. Does that not suggest a constant speed to you?

If yes, then its variablility creates a paradox, since they are both true. Or are you still maintaining that the speed of light being constant is false, and that when it hits the earth, its measured speed will be relative to the earth's motion, with the speed of the earth's rotation in the same direction being deducted? Bye.

[darkstar3]

215. Now you're confusing tolerances in precision of measurement with constancy.

Light travels at approximately 200,000 kilometers per second. By contrast, the speed of the earth's rotation is approximately 27.8 kilometers per second. We don't have measurement equipment precise enough to detect changes of that scale.

In other words, light does NOT hit the earth at a constant speed, but the differences in speed are so small that they fall within the parameters of measurement noise.

The speed of light is only constant in a vacuum, and nowhere else. You should look that up if you don't believe me, and I know you won't believe me because this eliminates light as a paradox.

Which brings us back to something we tried to discuss before: Where are all these paradoxes that you claim prove the existence of extra-universal phenomena such as "God"? Your light example isn't working. Would you care to try another one, or just insult me, atheism, and the scientific community again?

[trotsky]

201. You get so many posts deleted because you engage in foul personal attacks.

Not because atheists are a "protected species." Just so happens that you only attack atheists on a regular basis.

[Joe Chi Minh]

202. I see posts by atheists on here virtually every day, sneering at Christianity, and.

very clearly, implicitly, at Christians. But that's different.

You get upset if some doesn't turn the other cheek, don't you? You like easy targets and whine when someone exposes your folly with similar truculence.

[trotsky]

204. But they are not personal attacks.

If you think that they are, then use the Alert feature. The mods will delete.

But some better advice to you is to stop engaging in personal attacks. Do you think your Jesus fellow approves of your nasty attitude toward your fellow man?

[RainDog]

25. And if you simply want to talk about "fighting off the man"

You can look at the Russian Revolution too.

So, yeah, around the world there have been huge and important social changes that had nothing whatsoever to do with Jesus - including Ghandi's Indian independence movement.

You really cannot claim Ghandi for Jesus - that's simply ahistorical and a form of colonialism.

[NashVegas]

57. Yeah That Worked Out Pretty Well For Stalin

What I claim for Ghandi was inspiration by the religious figure of Jesus, which the "quotes" should have tipped people off to. I guess I gave DU atheism proponents' thinking fellers too much credit by that.

Just as an athiest, and/or any person who is bitter about religion loves to go off about the Crusades and other abuses, etc. (and I will point out what most people know - the Crusades used religion as a pretext for land-grabbing), there are other acts a religion (any religion of the Hellenic & post-Hellenic period, I think) inspires to drive people into irrational acts for the greater good.

[Brickbat]

79. Working for the greater good is an irrational act? What the?

[JVS]

87. Stalin arguably did more for India's independence than Gandhi

[RainDog]

135. the question was - when did a group "stand up to the man"

without the influence of Jesus.

it's not about what Stalin did. This is a lazy way to discredit something - and that you cannot do - because this is something that disproves your point.

the issue is that you want to insist on a fallacious claim.

Stalin's reign of terror has nothing to do with the October Revolution, basically.

The Declaration of Independence and the French declaration of the Rights of Man were inspired by reason, not god. That the French went on to build an empire across Europe has nothing to do with the initial line of reasoning that allowed them to murder their king.

The founders were hypocrites who continued to hold slaves while claiming "all men." That act stemmed from political calculation - they thought it was better to have southern slave states with them in order to beat the British. But that, too, has nothing to do with the foundational reasoning for throwing off a religious/state belief in order to declare independence as a colony.

[jpgray]

26. Humanists may draw from all moral philosophy. We get everybody!

Happily we don't have to follow doctrine on what to take away from the Gospels, and we don't have to throw all other religious philosophers into the furnace because they're from the "wrong" religion. It's a curious notion you seem to have that humanists can only draw from avowed atheists. One of the main benefits to our philosophy is that we are open to inspiration from any and all moral thought, believing as we do it comes from persons like ourselves, being free from the need to see anything as holy inspiration or eternally damning heresy.

[sinkingfeeling]

27. I'll take the Founding Fathers for $100.

[RainDog]

31. Incredible, huh, that so many Americans cannot even seem to connect

that the "divine rights of kings" that were overthrown with the American and French Revolutions were the DIRECT consequence of the Enlightenment freeing human minds from the bondage of feudal religion.

[NashVegas]

34. Deists

Which is not atheism.

[RainDog]

37. Jefferson did not believe in god

and deism is, essentially, a form of atheism - it does not believe in the divinity of Jesus. It does not believe that there is ANY god that has any intervention in human affairs.

to try to claim that the deism of the 18th c. in any way compares to a belief in religion is bullshit.

[Odin2005]

218. The founders were Deists because it was before Darwin, they thought a creator was needed.

Darwin destroyed any need to speak of a creator.

[BurtWorm]

50. It's not Christianity either.

[LostInAnomie]

148. As far as divine inspiration goes, Deists get the same as Athesits

Deists believe in a God that set the universe in motion and that's all. Not a God that takes active part in the drives and wills of Humanity or a God that seeks social justice.

[Joe Chi Minh]

183. Atheists don't believe in a god or "Intelligent Design", i.e. Einstein's "illimitable, superior

spirit".

[darkstar3]

184. Einstein's "illimitable, superior spirit" could easily be nothing more than energy,

and not a personified deity at all.

[Joe Chi Minh]

185. You mean, "energy with a brain". Hadn't thought of that. Can't think why.

Actually, you may not be as green as you're cabbage-looking with that - except that you evidently want to limit God to "energy", when he is simply the source of the energy behind everything that he has designed and created, as Einstein was evidently implying.

[darkstar3]

186. A laughable claim, unless of course you can prove the following:

A. The universe requires design (we've already shown it doesn't)
B. There is ANYTHING "behind" energy.
C. That Einstein actually wrote about a personified deity rather than some unreachable and nebulous goal of perfection. (Good luck with that one, as Einstein's writing have stifled scholars attempting to determine his views on religion.)

[Joe Chi Minh]

189. A and B are pure cretinism. As for C, you've already forgotten the

Einstein quote I posted earlier, about the "illimitable, superior spirit" - and incidentally, the poor, pathetic scope of our human minds. By" superior", superior to what, do you think he is indicating?

What else but what he concludes with, namely, that reference to our feeble human minds. Now, a mind that is superior suggest a god, not an animal, vegetable or mineral. And such a mind suggests a kind of person. Not, it's true, a personal god in the sense of entertaining a personal relationship with us, or a judgmental god, but that is what "deism" means: "belief in the existence of a god on the evidence of reason and nature only, with rejection of supernatural revelation"; and "belief in a God who created the world but has since remained indifferent to it."

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/deism

Nothing whatsoever to do with a "goal of perfection", indeed a "goal" of any kind. You've just scored an "own goal". I love it when you try to be explicit, garbled though your thoughts may be, once actually articulated.

[darkstar3]

190. Cretinism? What an awful dodge.

If you don't want to even try to answer the questions, then you can at least admit that.

As for your Einstein issue, you seem to be conflating the two words "mind" and "spirit". Einstein need not have been talking about any kind of "mind" outside of humanity. Oh, and your deism definition is a non-sequitur, because Einstein himself never claimed deism.

[Name removed]

191. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

192. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Edweird]

33. When's the last time an atheist murdered a doctor or bombed a doctor's office due to their beliefs?

[AndrewP]

71. +1

This OP is nonsense

[Zoeisright]

86. [phone]

The OP is nonsense indeed. He needs to read some Dawkins, in which that smart and educated man says that the reason anyone does good is for reasons of survival. Our moral code is built into our behavior because when you help someone else, you may get help when you need it.

I just hate these insecure, belligerent, verbicose "Xtians".

[Vinnie From Indy]

35. Pragmatist at best?

LOL!

Many responders have laid out a laundry list of athiests that have had great impact on humanity. Did that help you answer your challenge?

[NashVegas]

98. Should Have Read

Agnostic. Don't ask ...

[cali]

36. whoa. that;'s some flawed reasoning.

[mkultra]

42. Sci-fi books inspire scientists to create new technology.

doesn't make the stories real.

Just sayin.

[muriel_volestrangler]

43. So is your point that we should tell people to believe in Jesus even if we don't?

Just so that they are 'inspired'? Is it actually relevant to you if Jesus really was God or not?

[Enrique]

47. Aqua Buddha!

[Rebubula]

49. LOL...

..."many instances where anyone successfully fought off "the man""

The 'Man' that you describe here has usually been someone that was ALSO inspired by Jesus. Jesus was likely a good guy - but to ignore the fact that christianity (as well as all other religions) was created to control the masses and explain away all of life's mysteries with a heavenly Deus Ex Machina is silly.

Atheism will guide us out of these myths that have been propagated for 2 Thousand years.


Hey - we could go back 3000 years and ask 'Zeus inspired so-and-so, Pagans - what have you got to match that?'

[trotsky]

51. So what?

Because some people have been inspired by Jesus to do good things, does that make Christianity true?

Since you indicated you like Einstein upthread, I'll leave you with one of my favorite quotes from him:

"If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed."

[Warren Stupidity]

52. why is this crapfest not in the religion forum?

and I'll take Hawkins for 500, Alex.

[mudplanet]

60. It's bait.

[gmoney]

132. "Go away! Baitin'!"

[SidDithers]

72. Rompin' Ronnie Hawkins?..nt

Sid

[montanto]

55. "jesus" may inspire atheists as well.

If jesus was, then jesus was a man. If not, he was a character. as a character he cared, he shared, and caring and sharing is inspirational whether coming from a man or from a fictional character.

Irrationalism ain't all that either.

Have you never seen a caring, sharing person who was not christian? lol.

[Juche]

61. Jainism inspired them

That is what Sam Harris claimed.

Historically there have been few out and out atheists, so they can't really inspire people. But I'll take Louis Pasteur over MLK, Jesus and Gandhi combined.

[hfojvt]

62. Isaac Asimov, Carl Sagan, and, of course,

the Chocolate Thunder - Darryl Dawkins.

The other trouble, of course, is that "the man" being fought also gave lip service to the Lord Jesus Christ.

[NashVegas]

74. See Anyone Stand Up to a Police Baton For Them?

If anything, I gotta give it to the people who mentioned Marx. That one went south even more swiftly than Christianity, though Trotsky did die for our sins.

[JanMichael]

83. While not all are non-theists how many Left Union supporters have stood up to a baton?

A lot. And why? The betterment of working conditions in factories, mines, housing; the 40 hour workweek, child labor laws, etcetera. Not just in the good ol' USA but all over this planet.

You're barking up a weird tree here. And not making a whole hell of a lot of sense.

[RainDog]

155. Northern western Europe is socialist - i.e. Marxist - with a mixed economy

the socialists were the resistance during WWII, for the most part, across France, Belgium, The Netherlands...and Germany.

Social democracies are socialist - tho they employ mixed economies as well.

Because of their heroic fight against fascism, the socialists and communists won WWII in northern Europe. The unions of northern western Europe are also almost entirely comprised of members of the socialist and communist parties in those nations.

Great Britain and Canada followed the lead of the continent in the years following the war and have adopted socialist ideology as part of their economic and social systems as well.

Those nations, btw, that have universal health care, humane unemployment benefits and retraining for workers, that have better educational systems and a better-educated populace than the U.S. overall as well...

Meanwhile, Spain went fascist with the Catholic Church's collusion.

honestly, are you really this uninformed?

Marx has done more for the people of western nations over the last century than any religious thinker or believer.

[Renew Deal]

63. I commend you for starting this discussion.

Most people wouldn't be willing do that.

[NashVegas]

73. Yeah, Well

I survived the 2008 primaries here as a Clinton supporter.

[Renew Deal]

95. You were a Clinton supporter?

[superduperfarleft]

112. This isn't a discussion, it's stupid flamebait. n/t

[Renew Deal]

127. No more than other similar threads on DU.

It's proportional.

[darkstar3]

157. +1

[sammytko]

64. Me!

[Goblinmonger]

67. It wasn't Jesus, it was Thoreau.

Their concept of civil disobedience stems pretty clearly to Henry David. Good luck attributing that to a theist. Thoreau was a-religious at best.

[Name removed]

81. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[joeybee12]

102. I'd say Leo Tolstoy more so...nt

[uppityperson]

78. It is not WHAT you believe in religiously/spiritually, but what you DO with it

There have been wonderful and horrible people of all beliefs.

[emilyg]

85. Amen.

[JVS]

84. Marx was an atheist and he inspired a lot of people to kick some oppressive ass.

[NashVegas]

111. As Noted Upthread

post 74. We have yet to see how the non-violence-based achievements of MLK & Ghandi will work out in the long run. Marxism, as also noted above, isn't faring so well these days.

[JVS]

118. If you think Marxism isn't hacking it, then non-violence is certainly not hacking it.

It's yielded little fruit in the last 30 years.

[FamousBlueRaincoat]

197. Marx has a uniquely religious way of view the world

One of the many reasons I find his works interesting. Despite his claims about religion, his idea of historical materialism has clearly religious overtones, particularly when compared to other popular ideas of the time, say liberalism, Bakunin's anarchism, whatever else.

[Evoman]

91. Geez, religious people are defensive.

Man, it's so hard to live in a world where people feel that they are better than you. I'm lucky I'm an atheist, because no religious person ever thinks they are better than me.

It's really not my fault that I was born smart enough to be an atheist. Also not by fault that atheists are sexier and, dare I say, better hung.

[superduperfarleft]

96. The cognitive dissonance of knowing that they believe in magical sky-daddies

despite absolutely no demonstrable evidence of said sky-daddies probably makes them a bit pissy when you call them on it.

[Evoman]

101. It's all quite interesting.

Besides, I little understand how it's relevant that religion inspires anyone. What does that have to do with the fact that religion is a big pile of bullshit? I guess it's great if people are inspired by bullshit, but that doesn't mean I want to swallow a heaping tablespoon of it.

[uppityperson]

106. Unlike such unfailingly kind and polite people like you. nt

[superduperfarleft]

109. Let's compare the two:

On one side, we have people who not only believe in magical nonsense, but attempt to FORCE the rest of us to live by their particular rules. That means infiltrating government and in the process legislating the behavior of consenting adults in accordance with some 2,000 book of obsolete rules that only a fraction of the world's population gives a shit about.

On the other side, we have me making a snarky comment on a messageboard.

Yeah, totally comparable. :eyes:

[Evoman]

119. It starts with snarky comments, next thing you know, you're writing books.

BOOKS!

It ends with poor religious people having to walk past a book with a insulting title.

You monster. Just for that, you get blankets with small pox on them.

[uppityperson]

125. Bad things have been done by fundamentalists of all types and in the name of many religions

[superduperfarleft]

94. Imaginary figures have "inspired" lots of things.

Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, etc.

[mmonk]

97. Jesus is something totally different from American Christianity.

All you have to do is read the words attributed to him and then listen to American Christians and what they believe. Total opposites.

[JuniperLea]

146. You nailed it...

Those who squeal the loudest about how Christian they are tend to be those who follow Jesus' words the least.

[athenasatanjesus]

100. Not worshipping Athene has doomed humanity. nt

[RadiationTherapy]

105. Dr. Jonas Salk.

He was Jewish. Nonetheless, I find morality to be very rational and am not impressed with the idea that religions inspire morality and compassion. Role models do that.

[babydollhead]

108. "I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. They are so unlike your Christ."

this is a quote from Gandhi.

[Hello_Kitty]

110. You are making an argument for religion as a form of inspiration

But you're not making a case for the validity of the belief itself.

Santa Claus inspires millions of children to behave themselves prior to Christmas. Doesn't mean Santa Claus is real.

[superduperfarleft]

115. "Doesn't mean Santa Claus is real. "

There you go, pushing your militant anti-Santa Claus agenda by simply stating a fact. Why are you so mean???????

[Forkboy]

116. What????

:cry:

[Vickers]

126. lol!

:rofl:

[NashVegas]

128. So?

Anyone you know face a firehose for Santa?

[Hello_Kitty]

129. So? People blow themselves up for Allah.

Doesn't make him real.

[NashVegas]

171. And Yet

I think the majority of informed citizenry, without a dog in the fight, might agree they are fighting an oppressive state, or at least they think they are.

[muriel_volestrangler]

173. So you're saying we should fool the masses into believing

so that they'll do what we want them to, even if it means risking their lives for a belief we don't ourselves hold? That our problem is we let children know that Santa isn't real, so they stop being good when we tell them to be?

[Township75]

149. I think that may be the point the OP is trying to make.

I don't think the OP is about if a religion is true or not.

I do think it is a matter of what Jesus has inspired people to do...and what does Athiesm have as a counterpart.

On edit - I don't know the answer, but I don't read much Athiestic stuff, nor Religious for that matter, so please don't interpret my statement as implying there isn't a counterpart.

[NashVegas]

153. Shhhhhh

:)

[Hello_Kitty]

159. I disagree with the premise of the OP

The implication is that without Jesus there'd be no MLK or Ghandi (as important historical figures). How do we know that?

[ismnotwasm]

113. All religion oppresses women

There is not one single major religious figure who doesn't have a prostitute parable for women, or insinuate that they are weak or defective. The basic flaw of humanity, from my feminist perspective, goes much further back than Jesus. I like to think that if human beings had been able to avoid creating the concept of the original 'other'--which ended up being women, perhaps we would have seen a faster and more profound societal maturation.
As it is, war and violence are the way and are dominated by so-called 'masculine' principals. (I personally have a better opinion of men than that, but I have good men in my life) The bible is a perfect example of constant war mongering, and Jesus himself plans that the world ends in violence and pain does he not?

Cherry picking the bible, not matter who does it, doesn't change what it says in context.

[cleanhippie]

114. Here ya go. Enjoy. You can stop with the nonsense now.

http://www.michaelnugent.com/2008/12/12/charitable-atheists/

Charitable Atheists

Atheists have founded many charities. Bob Geldof founded Live Aid. Screenwriter Richard Curtis founded Comic Relief and Make Poverty History.

Nonreligious people have been major philanthropists. Paul Newman donated $250 million to charity. Between them, Bill Gates and Warren Buffet have donated an incredible $80 billion – which is twenty times the budget of the International Red Cross.

Atheists can also donate to religious causes. Last year an atheist businessman gave over $20 million for Catholic school scholarships in inner city New York.

In an ancient Hasidic fable, a rabbi is asked if it is ever right to act as if god did not exist. His answer: “Yes. When you are asked to give to charity, give as if there were no god to help the object of the charity.”

That’s exactly what atheists do.

-------------

http://www.evolvedrational.com/2008/06/fundie-claim-13-atheists-and-charity.html


Bill Gates and Warren Buffett have each individually made the two largest charity donations in American history. Robert Wilson, a retired fund manager and staunch atheist is giving over $22 million to charity, and if you are curious about what charity is the beneficiary, you’ll be surprised: He is giving $22.5 million to the Archdiocese of New York to fund a scholarship program for needy inner-city students attending Roman Catholic schools. Could you even imagine any Christian doing the same for an opposing religious institution, let alone to an atheist charity organization such as the Council for Secular Humanism’s SHARE? The idea alone is laughable. This donation is in addition to the almost $150 million that Wilson donated to charity in 2006, according to a survey by the Chronicle of Philanthropy, making him the 12th most generous philanthropist in the U.S.

----------------------
http://www.freethoughtpedia.com/wiki/Charities
http://www.atheistvolunteers.org/
http://mnatheists.org/content/view/178/34/
http://techskeptic.blogspot.com/2007/12/atheist-charities.html
http://techskeptic.blogspot.com/2007/12/atheist-charities.html

and the list goes on and on and on...
-----------------------

Dude, teh Google is your friend. You could have saved yourself so much embarrasment, but whatever.

[Tsiyu]

120. Turtle Island

Our Earth Mother


birthed us all and nourished us to now.


What have you got on that?






(And don't be dissin' Mama)







:spank:

[pink-o]

121. So you come up with 2 figures who were inspired by the Christian Messiah

I can come up with millions more throughout history who committed evil using the same inspiration. Crusaders, Cardinals, Popes, KKK members, Xian Fundies in the US...too many to name who swear Jesus lived within them.

Proving once again that inspiration is human and subjective. Further manifesting my belief that there is no god.

[Vickers]

123. A Xerox of my butt cheeks. n/t

[ProudDad]

124. Nice flame bait...

Ghandi and MLK weren't myths...

[MilesColtrane]

131. Why can't you guys settle this in a more civilized manner?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FM8eWeU8-oQ

[EOTE]

133. Perhaps the Super Best Friends could help decide.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSwG6MfiSqw

Swallow come!

[Township75]

156. I can't watch that at work, but remember that show...

maybe you can tell me and break my curiosity.

I thought they actually drew a cartoon of Muhammed in that show, and he breathed fire or something...am I wrong.

I thought of that shortly after the Danish cartoon created that crap storm. Is my memory bad? Thanks.

[darkstar3]

162. Your memory serves, except the fire came from his hands and not his breath.

[Township75]

163. Thanks.

I will watch your link at home.

I wonder why that didn't cause a crap storm like it did in Denmark? Maybe word didn't get around? Was it because it made him look bad-ass? Because the US Muslims are "moderate"?

Maybe it is better if no one finds out about it.

[EOTE]

166. Your memory is pretty good.

They did draw a cartoon of Muhammed, but they ended up censoring it because of Comedy Central. I believe there you can watch the clips uncensored on Youtube.

[darkstar3]

167. No they didn't!

They didn't censor Muhammed in the Super Best Friends ep. It wasn't until later, in the Cartoon Wars eps, that they censored Muhammed for the first time.

[EOTE]

170. My bad, I didn't realize that the controversy had time to ramp up.

I don't quite understand Comedy Central's inconsistency on this issue. Talk about rolling over.

[darkstar3]

136. How can you get inspiration from nothing?

This tired old flamebait argument has been debunked by every worthy atheist writer out there, but hey, I'll give it a shot if you want.

Answer this question: How can NOT believing in something motivate you to do anything?

[Township75]

151. Haven't those atheist writers heard of...

Anybody But Bush? That was motivation to not believe in someone, and it sure did fire up some voters.

[darkstar3]

160. False equivalency.

The belief was that anyone, even a mutant talking duck, would have been better at being president than Bush.

Atheism is a lack of belief, pure and simple. You are comparing apples to cucumbers.

[Township75]

161. I disagree.

I disagree because with ABB you did NOT believe in any particular person, just a void. It wasn't assigned to anyone, and it motivated people.

[darkstar3]

164. I was part of that movement, bumper sticker and all, and I can tell you that you are wrong.

There was no "void" involved with ABB. There was a very powerful archetype just waiting for someone to drape it around themselves like a mantle. That's how we ended up with a man running for office whose narrations could be used in lieu of Sominex.

There is no comparison whatsoever between the simple lack of a belief in a deity and blind hatred directed toward a sitting president.

[Township75]

169. 99% of those on DU were part of that movement...

and at that time the "winner" was a void. It was empty, it was nothing, it was undefined, because it was anyone but Bush. It wasn't a person.

It was a void that we all wanted to support and bring to victory. The void motivated us.

I am not saying ABB = Atheism, and I am not comparing Atheism to a failed political movement nor a stale, boring speaker that could bring tears to your eyes as you pointed out. I am just responding to your first post that suggest people can not be motivated by a "nothing" for lack of a better term.

[darkstar3]

172. But in order to make that response, you are creating a falsehood.

There was no void. Furthermore, you are confusing the idea of a lack of belief in the existence of a deity with the idea of no confidence in a leader.

You're comparison is badly inapt. As I said above, a lack of belief is absolutely nothing like hatred aimed at a sitting president.

[MNBrewer]

175. "anybody" does not equal "nobody"

"nobody" would be a void.

"anybody" is an unspecified, yet-to-be-determined SOMEBODY. Anybody was a real person. ABB wasn't "Leave the office of the President vacant"

[NashVegas]

177. And It Was Ultimately Unsuccessful

[Deep13]

188. There are plenty of theistic alternatives to Jesus.

The only alternative to Bush was whoever the democratic nominee was (or one of the other announced Rs in 2000).

Besides, even if we look only at the so-called strong version of atheism (I believe there is no god), its belief of nonexistence is confined to a theistic, supernatural god. Someone can believe there is no god and still believe a rotten turnip would be a better chief executive than Bush. (In doing nothing, it would do nothing wrong.) The weak version of atheism (I do not believe there is a god) really is a lack of belief and it is hard to see how declining to believe something can be a basis for anything else, except a rejection of ideas bases on the premise that there is a god. It would be like refusing to believe there was a "President" Bush. Or more aptly, it would be like refusing to believe there was a President Big Bird.

[newportdadde]

139. We will never know because so many are closeted.

In just about any social circle or group admitting your an athiest or an agnostic is essentially the kiss of death. Imagine trying to get elected with that belief in this country, talk about dead in the water.

So in short I'd say we would be suprised at the names we would recognize but of course we will never find out.

[MNBrewer]

142. "Jesus" inspired Hitler

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter.

In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight against the Jewish poison. Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross."

- Adolf Hitler

[IRemember]

144. We don't need a human sacrifice to confirm our morality.

Science, reason, and reality are what atheism has to offer.

[Lucian]

158. I get my inspiration from Science and natural processes.

But if we have to go with people, I look at the rational scientific community for inspiration. The latest reports on what man has accomplished to prevent disease and death inspires me to new heights.

[dimbear]

178. Some wise soul already picked Buddha, so I'm going Socrates.

He inspired pretty much the whole of Western philosophy, and while his religious beliefs aren't really so clear, it was for being an atheist that he was assassinated by the Fathers of Athens.

[Deep13]

187. Is this a contest?

Atheism is a lack of belief. By itself it doesn't insire anything. Ghandi took most of his inspiration from the Jainist philosophy of nonviolence. MLK took it from Ghandi. I'm not claiming those two men were not inspired by Jesus, just that he was not the basis of what they were most remembered for. And frankly, as role models go, both Ghandi and Jesus were mixed bags.

Others insired by Jesus, or at least by Christian doctrine:

Torquemada
"Bloody" Mary Tudor
witch hunters through the ages
every priest who has ever raped a child
Henry VIII
Crusaders like St. Louis and Richard Lionheart
Pat Robertson
Fred Phelps
Hitler and friends
The Romanovs
everyone who as ever told children they were going to hell
almost everyone who opposes stem cell research
almost everyone who opposes women's reproductive rights
creationists
almost all proponents of American slavery
almost all proponents of American segregation
almost all opponents of gay rights

Skeptics can claim the following: (N.B.: skepticism is a philosophy while atheism is a likely conclusion based on following the skeptical insistence on evidence.)
Spinoza
Jefferson
Franklin
Darwin
Sagan
Einstein
Clarence Darrow
Thomas Paine
Margaret Sanger
Galileo
Lincoln
George Carlin
Mark Twain
Noam Chomsky
Edison
Seth McFarland
Ayn Rand (I'm embarassed to admit.)
(I wish I could think of more women. I'm sure most of the suffragists must have been skeptical at least of the established religious order, I just don't have a source handy.)

Well, that's off the top of my head and after a very brief internet search.

[greendog]

193. If Jesus was alive today...

...he'd be an Atheist.

:hide:

[LeftishBrit]

198. Gandhi wasn't a Christian; he was a Hindu

As regards atheists/agnostics with a positive influence on politics, the first who occurs to me is my local hero, postwar Labour Prime Minister Clem Attlee.

But I am not as concerned with a leader's personal beliefs as with their acceptance of diversity of others' beliefs; their placing the interests of ALL their citizens above the rules of their particular religion; and their NOT using religion as a tool for warmongering, imposing social conservativism, or an excuse for not considering people's immediate economic needs ('you'll get pie in the sky when you die!')

[Odin2005]

217. Tom Paine. Albert Eistein. Carl Sagan. Siddhartha Gautama. Socrates.

Paine's Deism and Einstein's Pantheism were Atheistic in every way that mattered (in fact, Einstein's views are very similar to my own). The Buddha was an agnostic.