Not only was Hitler a Christian, but he was also a Creationist!

[backscatter712]

Sorry, but No True Scotsman can't save you from the truth.

http://richarddawkins.net/discussions/570807-adolf-hitler-the-world-s-most-famous-creationist

But there was a pile of evidence staring me in the face and my father-in-law enthusiastically showing me through it. In his own words, Hitler believed...

"My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them." -Hitler in a speech on April 12, 1922.

Hitler made similar remarks in his book, "Mein Kampf", which was written when he was young. So he must have changed his mind and lost sight of his faith later, right?

"The National Government will regard it as its first and foremost duty to revive in the nation the spirit of unity and co-operation. It will preserve and defend those basic principles on which our nation has been built. It regards Christianity as the foundation of our national morality, and the family as the basis of national life."

No, that isn't from a modern day, Republican speech; that's what Hitler said in a statement in 1933.

And even more surprising was the Nazi banned book list; Darwin's "On the Origins of Species" and any book deemed to support evolution it were on it.

"The most marvelous proof of the superiority of Man, which puts man ahead of the animals, is the fact that he understands that there must be a Creator."

"The fox remains always a fox, the goose remains a goose, and the tiger will retain the character of a tiger."

Nope, those aren't quotes from Ray Comfort or Kent Hovind as one might understandably assume; Hitler said those things in his book, "Mein Kampf."

Straight out of Hitler's own mouth, or pen. Very interesting how On the Origins of Species was on the official Nazi lists of books to ban and burn.

[RandomThoughts]

1. That is a falicy.

Christianity is a natural continuation of the Jewish Faith, and nowhere does it teach to hurt people still on some of the earlier books.

That is to make Christians look bad, while also hurting Jewish people.

That is an attempt to divide the faith.

[backscatter712]

2. Hitler called himself a Christian, it's well documented.

Granted, one can validly argue that Hitler was not a good Christian, as seen by his actions - one can't argue that throwing people into ovens was on the list of things that Jesus would do, in any mainstream, modern interpretation of the Christian faith. No mainstream Christian or any decent human being could condone Hitler's actions.

But Hitler considered himself to be a Roman Catholic, and never renounced his faith, but in fact proclaimed his faith.

Of course, one can twist and reinterpret Christianity and the Bible to condone anything from "Love your neighbor as yourself" to throwing Jews into ovens...

[RandomThoughts]

5. Why would him saying that mean anything.

Do you believe all the other stuff he said also?

That is between him and God, but him saying that does not define his heart, as explained in many texts.

Actually that would be 'in your interpretation of the modern interpretation of the Christian faith'.

[backscatter712]

7. A person is a Christian when he or she says he or she is a Christian.

Do you have other ideas on how to determine which faith, if any a person belongs to? The best we have to go on is a person's own declarations.

It's dependent on his state of mind and internal views on religion, which can only be known in Hitler's case to Hitler himself, so we have to go by what he said in his speeches and writing. Hitler declared himself to be a Christian. Multiple times. The Roman Catholic church considered Hitler to be a member.

[RandomThoughts]

11. heh.

Do you have other ideas on how to determine which faith, if any a person belongs to? The best we have to go on is a person's own declarations.

Machiavellian are taught to lie about that question.


And it is Label Trap.

Here is the thing, you are trying to set up a no win situation.

You are trying to get me either to judge Hitlers faith, or defend Hitler. I am saying what his belief is is between him and God, and that his heart should show what his belief is.



I could pick someone terrible that is Muslim, aethiest, or Jewish, and try to have a discussion on those religions, but really all the conversation does is load the macro for the label of some religion with the feelings people have about the person.

Your whole conversation is relying on label trap, to add to label trap for many people, or make any comment I make look bad to those in a label trap.

You are using label trap, or are in label trap.

And don't bother asking what label trap is, I have posted scores of posts on what that is.

[backscatter712]

14. Did I ever imply that Christians are like Hitler?

No, I even stated that Hitler was a bad Christian by the standards of any sane member of the faith.

Personally, what I found interesting about the article I posted in the OP wasn't that he was a Christian, but that he was a creationist, and even went as far as having On the Origin of Species banned.

[RandomThoughts]

16. By asking someone to explain Hitler, and Christian

You make an attachment between the two.

I think he was a Darwinian, and believed in social engineering without dignity for all people.

I don't know what he was thinking, but by his actions he fits that model.




My guess is he saw monsters in people literally, since he banned art and music, he probably saw the bad side in everything, and not the good, so he thought people were monsters or even worse. Seen that delusion in some homeless people over the years between pool halls. Tough one for them, drives them away from anyone that can help them. But it is real early or simple delusion.


He was probably under the delusion he was under, easy to defeat, it is mentioned in Langaleers also, it is about people seeing people as monsters, it occurs from interfering with a person input from eyes. Easy to defeat, empathy and love kicks it out. That delusion can happen to people that believe in religion also.

Many people actually have that delusion, far more then you know, many racist actually get taken down by that delusion. It is a distortion of discernment used to create fear or hate of a group.

It is only seeing the bad in people, or not being able to see any of the good at all, complete blockage.

That would be my guess, from that he could have been of any religion. However his effects fit social engineering without dignity for all people.

[ZombieHorde]

28. No, I think the OP is simply saying Hitler was a Christian.

What do you think he was?

[dark forest]

38. Yes,

but that is not the fault of other Christians, now is it.

[kwassa]

39. This is your litmus test for who is a Christian, not mine.

Actions, vs. words. Personal declarations mean little, actually. Do they behave in a way that Christ would behave? That would be my consideration. I think Hitler would fail that test.

Your OP states an old, old argument in this forum. It serves only some atheist's political agenda of blaming Christianity for Hitler's crimes, which is nonsense, of course. You are only the latest in a long line of posters to suggest it, to post carefully selected quotes as proof.

Hitler was a habitual liar, and there is no reason to believe anything he said in his speeches, which were designed for political consumption and political effect. The idea that we have to accept these words as proof of his religious convictions is hilarious, really.

read this entire entry, and you might see how complicated the whole story is:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler%27s_religious_views

[skepticscott]

19. You think there aren't plenty of

conservative Christians in America (including some who are and have been powerful members of our government) who would love to herd homosexuals into gas chambers and turn on the Zyklon-B? There are, make no mistake.

[backscatter712]

20. No doubt about that. n/t

[cleanhippie]

25. Bwahahahaha! Absurdly laughable!

The very first response, yours, was exactly what was predicted. Well done.

[Codeine]

29. I call this the "No Comprehensible Scotsman" Fallacy.

Seriously -- your posts read like a random word generator.

[KaoriMitsubishi]

37. Yeah

Christianity is oh so kosher! :eyes:

Seriously, Islam is closer to Judaism than Christianity.

[nadinbrzezinski]

3. The Christianity of the third reich was pretty much a bastard faith

Not unlike some of our extreme right wing. The list also included that Jewish science, such as relativity theory by the way.

[Bad Thoughts]

34. Nationalism was the religion, Christianity gave it symbols

Christianity was greatly warped under German nationalism, especially under Fascism.

[AlinPA]

4. Sounds like something today's U.S. republicans would say. nt

[struggle4progress]

6. Anyone, who knows enough history, knows that Hitler was a notorious liar but

he and his circle apparently had accurate political instincts about the German culture of the time

So perhaps it makes no sense to attempt to understand anything by cherry-picking quotes: rather, quotes should be associated to particular days and places, which have their own little complexes of contemporary events and local cultures that will illuminate the political purpose of the utterance and the actual reception of the utterance

[Mark Maker]

8. Charlie Manson is an atheist who thought the Beatles

were speaking directly to him.

[provis99]

9. he thought he was Christ when he committed murder.

People who think they're Christ aren't usually referred to as atheists.

[backscatter712]

10. Charles Manson is just plain fucking batshit. Of course, so was Hitler. n/t

[toddaa]

12. Hitler/Stalin/Pol Pot/Mao were just like you

All of you. No exceptions.

[backscatter712]

13. Strawman: He died for your fallacies.

In no case did I ever describe Hitler as a good Christian, nor did I imply that all Christians are like Hitler. I just brought up an article, with some quotations from Mein Kampf and other writings and speeches of Hitler where he professed his faith and expressed his opinion on evolution vs. creationism.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

17. Jesus was not a nice guy.

Christians can do anything they want, good or bad. Because Jesus told people to love their neighbor. However, he also said "I come not in peace but with a sword", and many other times he condemned large groups of people to hell. He said many hateful things that modern Christians ignore.

The words of the Bible, or the alleged words of Jesus, taken as a whole, are meaningless because they are contradictory.

a christian can commit cold blooded murder, and confess their sins and accept jesus as their savior, and bingo! They can go to heaven!!!!

Not a religion that I trust. Sorry.

Hitler was a Roman Catholic and a creationist. There are lots of Christians out there that do bad things. I won't call them "bad Christians" because they are being just as mean and cruel as jesus was at times.

Jesus didn't even exist. Christianity is a syncretic messy religion with nothing original in it, and they took over the pagan holidays & symbols like Easter eggs and evergreen trees so the people they forcibly converted would accept them.

That's why Mary is venerated. The indigenous people would not accept an all male trinity so they had to have a goddess somewhere to be worshiped.

[backscatter712]

23. Point taken, though IMHO Christianity is honored in the breach today, making Jesus a tabula rasa.

The Bible does indeed have tons of contradictory passages, and contradictory advice on moral behavior - one page it says to follow the Golden Rule, another page advises readers to "Slaughter all heathens!"

And Jesus himself is pretty much a mystery (and you're right, there's no historical evidence for his existence) - the Gospels have contradictory accounts of his life and personality - on one page, he's the swell guy who feeds the poor and heals the sick, on another, he's cursing fig trees for not bearing fruit for him out of season, so people fill in the blanks and iron out the wrinkles themselves - most Christians ignore vast parts of the Bible, simply to fit in with larger society sanely, so they create what most people see as the "meek and mild Jesus" who preached being nice to each other.

Of course, "Reverend" Fred Phelps has an entirely different idea of what Jesus was like - he believed Jesus hated homosexuals, and his little cult behaves accordingly.

And your last two paragraphs did remind me of that scene from Religulous, where Bill Maher was in front of the Vatican, talking to that jovial priest, the one who actually wasn't completely nuts, who mentioned that Jesus was number SIX on the list of saints, deities and other figures that Italians prayed to when they had problems (presumably behind Saint Mary, the Lady of Fatima, etc. etc.)

[toddaa]

22. He also was a lousy painter

Let's talk about Thomas Kincade and Christians' shitty taste in art.

[snagglepuss]

15. He also was a vegetarian. So what are we to make of that?

[dimbear]

18. It's hard to put Hitler's views in a nutshell. Roughly, he was a

believer in what we nowadays call intelligent design, directed evolution, as far as humans go, by which we necessarily understand in context Aryans only. For the other lesser races, in this context, Darwinian evolution worked just fine.

Otherwise how can you understand his wholehearted advocacy of eugenics?

http://www.creationtheory.org/Essays/Hitler.xhtml

Amusing site, BTW.

[backscatter712]

21. Nobody ever accused Hitler of making sense.

He wasn't particularly well educated, and in fact, Mein Kampf is pretty badly written. A lot of his half-baked opinions on evolution and creation are the products of pure ignorance.

[KaoriMitsubishi]

36. "A lot of his half-baked opinions on evolution and creation are the products of pure ignorance."

Ah! So he was indeed a christian!

[Iggo]

24. He was also Hitler!

[toddaa]

26. First name Adolf

Who coached basketball. Basketball coaches are Nazis.

[Sal316]

27. That would be great, but.......

......Hitler's plan to eliminate all denominationalized religion in favor of one based on race seems to contradict that.

Hitler knew how to manipulate the masses by invoking God, etc., in order to garner public support.

This is similar to how the early American Colony churches got past the Calvinistic interpretation of Romans 13 and the church's opposition to rebellion as anti-scriptural.

Oh, and if you really want to take Hitler at his word, then explain this one from Jan 1939 at the Reichstag:

"Amongst the accusations which are directed against Germany in the so called democracies is the charge that the National Socialist State is hostile to religion. In answer to that charge I should like to make before the German people the following solemn declaration:
1. No one in Germany has in the past been persecuted because of his religious views, nor will anyone in the future be so persecuted.

Oh, and if you're going to make this connection, then you have to make the same connection between the early post-revolution Soviet Union and Atheism....especially in light of official propaganda, the disestablishment of the Orthodox church in 1918, Komsomol Christmas and Komsomol Easter in 1923/1924, the establishment of the Antireligious Commission by the Central Committee in 1924 along with the Bezbozhnik (The Godless) newspaper, etc.

[toddaa]

33. You forgot to mention Georgii Karpov

You know him, don't you? Of course you do. You've got a PhD on modern Russian History from Google U.

[UrbScotty]

30. Other Christians include FDR, the Kennedys, Obama, Biden, Kucinich, Pelosi, etc., etc.

So enough of that hatred.

[toddaa]

31. Trying to sneak one past us?

Everyone knows Obama is a Muslim.

[backscatter712]

32. "enough of that hatred"...

See post #13.

[struggle4progress]

35. Exactly which "official list(s)" banned Darwin's Origins?

For the sole purpose of immediate effect, the Nazis might, at a particular time and place, portray an idea as a wonderful example of Nazi views or as a terrible example of modern degeneracy abhorred by the Nazis

So it is worth inquiring into the actual evidence for a ban on Darwin

The University of Arizona has an interesting online exhibit here, that may help illustrate the point: http://www.library.arizona.edu/exhibits/burnedbooks/documents.htm

Searching for "Darwin," in this selection of banned book lists and library guidelines, yields (from 1935 Die Bücherei 2:6 p 279):

6. Writings of a philosophical and social nature whose content deals with the false scientific enlightenment of primitive Darwinism and Monism (Haeckel)

Now this quite clearly seems to seems to ban Haeckel (dead since 1919) by name. But what it says about "Darwinism" is less clear, because "primitive Darwinism and Monism" is unclear. Haeckel had been an early Darwinist, with a strong romantic streak, and he had called his own scientific philosophy "Monism"

Why attack Haeckel?

... Although best known for the famous statement ‘ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny’, Haeckel also coined many words commonly used by biologists today, such as phylum, phylogeny, and ecology. Haeckel also stated that ‘politics is applied biology’, a quote used by Nazi propagandists ... http://psychology.jrank.org/pages/1212/Ernst-Haeckel.html

Despite the fact that some Nazis had once enthusiastically cited Haeckel to justify their racial politics, it seems there was some question whether he he had adequately anti-semitic:

... writers, like Heinz Brucher, did initially attempt to recruit to the Nazi side the shade of Ernst Haeckel, as well as that of many other famous intellectuals of the past. But, as I also indicated, that effort was quickly staunched by Nazi Party officials writing in a Party organ (not just some random Nazis, as Gasman suggests). They regarded Haeckelian monism antithetic to the volkisch biology they promoted .... the suppression of Haeckel’s ideas .. extended to all of his books ... These beliefs about the virtues of the Jews seem hardly compatible with a virulent racial anti-Semitism. We also have the testimony of both Haeckel’s friends .. and enemies .. as to his liberal, tolerant attitudes about Jews. It’s hard to believe that if Haeckel had the reputation of being an anti-Semite, Magnus Hirschfeld, the great Jewish sexologist, would have lectured on him as “a German spiritual hero.” Even Brucher thought he had to dispose of “the fairy tale of Haeckel’s alleged philo-Semitism ..”.. Apparently the belief that Haeckel was friendly toward Jews was wide spread ...
RJ Richards
Response to Daniel Gasman’s Objections to my Article
“Haeckel's Alleged Anti-Semitism and Contributions to Nazi Biology”
<pdf:> http://home.uchicago.edu/~rjr6/articles/Response%20to%20Daniel%20Gasman.pdf

And what, exactly, is this "primitive Darwinism"? The natural guess might be that "primitive Darwinism" is just another example of Nazi newspeak. The Nazis originated in an era when socialism was very popular in Germany -- so they called themselves "national socialists" (and immediately set out to attack Social Democrats, Marxists, and Communists). Christianity was widespread in Germany then, so the Nazi platform spoke approvingly of "positive Christianity" (a movement which advanced the notion "Jesus was Aryan" and advocated purging all Jewish influences from Christianity, including the Old Testament texts). Darwinism, of course, did not support Nazi racial ideas -- but if the primary intent were to attack Haeckel, then one certainly could find scientists who regarded Haeckel's romantic Darwinism as unscientific, and a phrase like "the false scientific enlightenment of primitive Darwinism and Monism (Haeckel)" might be ambiguous enough that lots of folk would "endorse" it: Darwinists opposed to Haeckel's views, anti-Darwinists, and rabid anti-semites unhappy about Haeckel’s alleged philo-Semitism