Is this legal for a public school to do?

[Meldread]

I have a young nephew that has recently relocated to a new school in a new state - he's in primary school. After the second day at his new school he came home upset, nearly in tears. He told my sister that he and another student had to stay in class and do work while the other kids went to "have fun." Apparently this "fun" is a Bible study class for the kids.

Here is how it works: Every Tuesday during school hours, across the street on private property is a small building. This building is owned by a Church. Kids have a permission slip they have to take home to get signed by their parents to attend a Bible study class held in that building. There they do the stuff you'd expect to be done in a Bible study class for young children.

If the permission slip isn't signed by the parents, then the child has to stay with the teacher in their classroom. There they have to do extra class work in silence.

Naturally, my nephew wanted to go. In his view he was being punished by the teacher and the school for not attending, on top of being kept away from the rest of his class.

Now, my sister has no issue with this being a Christian. She's more than happy to send him to Bible school. I, on the other hand, being an atheist am enraged. I can't help but imagine having a child of my own and forcing my child to endure what is tantamount to a punishment for not attending something religious during school hours. It feels to me as if the school and the church are being too cute by half.

I really wouldn't have a problem if this was an after school thing. My problem is that it takes place during school hours, and the fact it is unfair to students of non-Christian faith / non-belief. I can't see how they violate any laws, but I do feel that they're violating the spirit (no pun intended) of the law.

It makes me angry and smacks of indoctrination of young children. Since it's not my child I can't stop it, but it still makes me angry.

[madfloridian]

1. Is it a charter school? Sometimes it is hard to tell the difference.

Or maybe a private school attended on vouchers. There is such a mixing of public, private, and religious now that it is hard to know the answer.

Go to the school website and see if it lists the type of school it is.

[Meldread]

3. No, this is a public school.

This is not a charter school, religious school, or a private school. It is a 100% public school in a small town rural community - which I suspect is the reason they're able to get away with this.

[glinda]

5. They should not be doing this. I do not know who you could report it to though.

[oberliner]

13. There is nothing to report

Except perhaps calling it "fun time" - that might be worth bringing up.

[darkstar3]

37. Actually, there is.

The children are being excused from class during normal school hours to attend a structured religious activity with the backing and sponsorship of the school. If this is indeed a 100% public school, then this a clear violation of the Establishment Clause.

[RandomThoughts]

2. In my belief those children will learn much of that stuff also.

So don't worry if they are not around it now, although if you get a chance, I would think being kind and talking on those issues with people helps also.

And if some are taught some wrong views of Bible teachings, the good parts get in also, and later that can be clarified, and even help learning how to think and feel.

I do hope the children in that class can have some fun also, although I think the classification of Bible study as fun, and other study as not fun, is not correct, but that comes from a reading of 'the whole world would not be able to contain the works done', so not about only a book.

So I think they will still learn love and kindness and the better ideas of forgiveness and love. Including from you.

Try not to be angry, people can learn from anything.

:loveya:

[Meldread]

10. It's not that I think it is dangerous or anything.

They're basically, in a nutshell, coloring hearts with Bible verses about love and such.

My anger arises from the insidious method (in my view) that they're using. They could have easily done this after school, keeping everything the same. The purpose (in my view) of having it DURING school was to "encourage" children to attend. And by encourage I mean apply peer pressure and punishment. After all how many six, seven, or eight year old children would rather be singing songs, coloring, and hearing about how Jesus loves them - or sitting in class in silence doing math problems?

It irks me a great deal. I wonder how Christian's would feel if I were doing the exact same thing and called it the Atheist Happy Hour. At the start, all you have to do is say: "There is no such thing as God." Then you get to play for the rest of the hour - oh and the toys would be amazing. The best. And Christian children who didn't attend get to hear about the AWESOME time all the other atheist children had while they had to sit, alone - in silence, in the classroom, doing extra math work.

Yeah, that wouldn't go over very well... and that's basically what I feel like they're doing. Just imagine if this wasn't a small town and there were Jews or Muslim students attending that school. Would it be fair to them? Hell! Imagine if a Muslim group wanted to do the EXACT same thing for Muslim students at the school - imagine the freak out that would occur without an ounce of acknowledged hypocrisy.

[RandomThoughts]

21. I agree with you coercion is not about faith.

And the concepts you mention about peer and group pressure is a part of that.

The problem is people not knowing diversity is ok, peer pressure comes from lack of respect of concepts of diversities and understanding how many groups can move the same way.

If there is a 'peer pressure' it is error of conformity, not about what some might choose to do, but because others feel they need to be like other people. There is need for some social togetherness conformity can create, but people need to be able to override that lower level thought process on topics that are not for social betterness, when being about conformity. Thought and feeling can do that to help people on issues of conflict of desire for conformity, and when diversity can innovate a society.



Also why many groups moving same direction is better.

[oberliner]

4. That went on at my public school for Catholic instruction

They didn't call it "fun" - but they did send a big group of the class away for a period of time towards the end of the school day and left just a few of us non-Catholics behind.

[glinda]

6. What? I went to private school and don't understand this concept at all.

It is a Public School that should be about regular learning. Why the heck is money/time being spent on Religion time?

[oberliner]

7. Here is some info on it that I found online for NY

NYCRR 109.2 (New York Commissioner's Revised Regulations)

A student will be excused from school during school hours for religious education upon a request in writing signed by the student's parents . Such religious instruction must be given off of the public school grounds and be operated under the control of "duly constituted religious bodies: . Students, in addition, must be registered for the religious courses and a copy of the registration and attendance record must be filed with the local public school authorities .

A local board of education, in its discretion may permit students to be released for not more than one hour a week while school is in session .

http://www.releasedtime.org/sitert/lawsdb/state.cfm?State=NY

[darkstar3]

38. Two problems with that law:

1. The law was created to allow children of orthodox families to continue their children's religious education. The "request in writing" mentioned in the law is designed to come in a voluntary basis from the parents, and the school shouldn't be prompting for or providing such a permission slip.
2. An educated guess (coming from a community like this myself) tells me that they are not keeping the appropriate records. I am quite sure that an audit of those records would turn up a gross deficiency.

[Meldread]

19. The school isn't spending money on this...

This isn't costing the school anything. For one hour each week the students who get their permission slip signed LEAVE the school grounds to private property across the street. That private property is owned by the Church doing this event. The school does not give them supplies or money. Attendance is entirely elective and only once the parents have given their permission.

They basically color, sing songs, and learn about all the crap you'd generally expect would go on in a Sunday School class for very young children. In other words, it is laying a foundation of indoctrination to build upon later when the children are older and better able to understand the religion. Right now they learn about how much Jesus / God loves them, and how good and nice he is... all that stuff. As they get older, they get to learn about what Jesus / God wants in return for that love, and if you refuse to give it you get to roast in the fires of Hell for all eternity. When you recruit people for anything you never go to them with the bad stuff first, you go to them with all the good stuff. The bad stuff comes later, after they've already bought into / accepted all the good stuff.

Basically this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnNSe5XYp6E">video sums up how cults work. (And it applies to more than just religious cults.)

[glinda]

26. "laying a foundation of indoctrination" to think "it's ok to do Religion and Public School at the

same time really.
Kids do not think it out. This is crap and a misleading practice. If their parents practiced what they preached, the children would have enough religion and guidance.

[Meldread]

29. Of course kids don't think about it.

That's why they're targeting them so young. Kids lack the ability to question what they're being taught, and thus it is very easy to begin a process of indoctrination.

It's awful because they're so defenseless. I could just imagine the howls of indignant outrage if a group like the Scientologists / Muslims attempted something like this... in fact, the only way I know how to fight it is to have a counter group offer the same services on a different day of the week and demand that the school give them equal time and send out the permission slips. When the school refused, they could probably be sued as a result.

[skepticscott]

42. Except that

public school employees are using time and resources to organize and keep track of a religious education program for students, instead of using them for the purposes they are intended for and that are legally permissible.

[Newest Reality]

8. That doesn't sound legal to me, for a public school

but I'd sure like to know if is and where and why.

I can understand your anger. Personally, I don't think these days that indoctrinating children into anything before they are of majority age to reason and give consent is healthy or practical. I would be okay with teaching children a bit about religions in an eclectic way while relating their historic and cultural impact. Then, it could be a choice to pick one or not participate in organized religion and its dogma at all. However, we know how that would go over both for religious and possibly atheistic parents.

I don't mean just regarding institutions, but it would be more reasonable for parents to respect and honor the child's eventual ability to make a choice upon maturity rather than exposing them to dogma that inserts extremely coercive ideas that point to one's very nature, present a moral and psychological dilemma, and then propose the only solution where eternity is at stake. The nature of religion involves quite a bit of assumptions and coercion that can have a long-lasting impact on a person's views and relationships.

We have more concern and caring as a society for the stages and maturity of sexual development in children than we have managed concerning their minds and how freely and naturally they function. A properly educated mind would provide valid and useful knowledge and skills, but the choices would be left to the individual, implicitly. Religions, to me, would be far more legitimate if they could respect the freedom of the mind and the uniqueness of the individual with the FAITH that, properly developed the right choice for that person would be made concerning these matters.

[oberliner]

12. It is definitely legal in public schools in NY

Not sure about other states.

Also not sure about calling it "fun time" - but religious instruction for one hour a week during school time at an off-campus location is legal (see my link above) - and I remember as a kid when that group of students left toward the end of the day on Wednesdays, I believe.

[Maine_Nurse]

33. Maine too. Early release and transport for catechism was common.

[westerebus]

14. Giles county Virginia. Washington Post.

[Riftaxe]

25. Why does it not sound legal

and did you perhaps read post #7?

[LuvNewcastle]

9. I don't like it either,

but the people in that community would make your sister's life hell if she tried to stop it. There are places in America where people feel that the freedom of religion gives them the right to shove their religion down your throat. I'm not saying that you should cede them every victory, I'm just saying that you have to pick your battles. If you choose to fight them on this issue, their preacher will tell them that the atheists are assaulting their religion, and those people will do anything in the name of religion. If he were my son, I would let him go if he wanted to go, but I would question him every week to see what he'd been taught. It would be a great opportunity to teach the child critical thinking skills.

[Meldread]

24. Tried that already.

He's got a creative imagination, which is a good thing. I've tried to talk to him about what he's learning there, if only to make sure they aren't teaching him something I'd consider really bad. (Example: If one of the students happens to have gay parents; I want to ensure that the "teachers" of the class aren't talking bad about those parents... or that the "teachers" aren't talking bad about other religions / non-religion.)

He's pretty much bought into the God / Jesus thing hook line and sinker. Of course, that wasn't a shock. He also believes Werewolves, Vampires, Ghosts, Aliens, and any number of odd things are absolutely 100% real - no matter how many times people have told him they're not. :P

My concern is that he's eventually going to end up indoctrinated. He may grow out of believing Werewolves, Vampires, Ghosts, and Aliens are real, but society will re-enforce that God -IS- real. It's very hard to save someone from a cult once they've been indoctrinated, and that is how I view religion - just like any other cult - the only difference is that the Christian cult is accepted and embraced by society.

For a Christian to understand how I feel: Just imagine someone that you love has fallen in with a cult - let's say Scientology. The more they hang around them, the more they begin to talk and think like them. You're natural impulse is to try and save them. You foresee only bad things happening if they remain with this group, and you know that the longer you wait to save them the further and further they're going to fall into that cults clutches.

That's exactly how I feel in regard to my nephew. In fact its worse, because he's a defenseless child completely incapable of using logic and reason to fend off what seemingly trustworthy sources are telling him to be true.

[LuvNewcastle]

28. I know how you feel.

I was raised Baptist and most of my family are RW conservatives. I have lost more than a few friends to fundie religions over the years and it's a horrible thing to watch. Hopefully some of your influence on the boy will lead to respect and tolerance of people who have differing views. As long as he understands the meaning of respect, he will turn out all right, whether he's religious or not.

[JDPriestly]

11. In my opinion, releasing children for religious classes off the school

property while students not attending the classes stay on school property is legal. We attended classes like that in the 1950s. It is a very long tradition.

[Meldread]

15. I think it's probably legal as well... which only adds to my frustration.

Since the children require the parents permission and it isn't on school grounds, I don't think there is anything illegal going on... and even if there was something illegal going on, it isn't my child so I can't do anything about it.

This only adds to my frustration though. My frustration would be less if they allowed the children who didn't attend to go outside and play, or if the weather was unsuitable, to play some games inside. That way the children who didn't attend wouldn't feel as if they were being punished.

Of course, the most ideal solution is to simply have it after school.

[Riftaxe]

30. But...But..it's the bible for christ's sake!

Sure there is nothing stopping atheist parents from using the same time to send their children to private property to stare vapidly into space for an hour.

Or my preference, being an agnostic myself, agnostic parents from using the time and private property to have their children study all of the world's mythological traditions and stories.

I highly suspect the uneasy feeling a few posters here are having is based on their intolerance of other people's beliefs.

[cynatnite]

16. Schools in Idaho do the same thing...

They had classes about mormonism during school hours across the street. It was perfectly legal.

They give credits to those students who take it.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

17. If the parents are OK with it and the time used if free/play time... I don't see the big deal.

Personally, I don't see anything wrong with letting kids talk/learn about religion as long as the time is used in lieu of free recess time. Especially if the parents are OK with it and the school itself is not teaching the religion. Some kids like to play tag or football during thier free time... it look like other enjoy religion. No big deal :shrug:

We used to get permission slips in grade school to be allowed to leave the school grounds during free periods when I was a kid.
We would walk to the taco bell across the street during lunch/recess periods. :)

[Meldread]

27. That's not how this is working.

As I said in a previous post, I could find more acceptance of this practice if the kids who didn't attend got to have some free time to themselves - to either play outside or play games indoors if the weather was bad. Though, ideally, this should be done after school.

That isn't how this works though. The kids who don't attend are required to do additional school work, in silence, in a mostly empty classroom. My nephew viewed this as a punishment, and believed the other kids were having "fun" while he was required to do additional work. In my view, this is the intention of the school. They want the children to feel left out and punished for not attending, so that they pressure their parents into allowing them to attend. This in turn gives those from the Church a chance to introduce those children to their faith and begin the process of indoctrination.

[Riftaxe]

31. A time of independant study

would be more equivalent. Or maybe you can figure out some way to regulate the "fun" away from the kid's who get to escape from school for an hour a week.

I'm betting that leaving school is the "fun" and not so much that studying that horribly evil bible/torah/quoran/Bhagavad Gita/etc thingy that has your intolerance hormones going through the roof.

[Meldread]

34. No...

They're going out of their way to make certain that it's the most attractive alternative. My nephew is going and looks forward to it each week. He has fun there because they allow him to socialize, color, paint, sing songs, all the typical stuff you'd expect of a basic Sunday school class for young children. I'm not sure if they get free snacks like cookies or something, but I'd be shocked if they didn't.

What sane, rational, thinking seven year old is going to want to pass up that opportunity to instead stay in class to do ADDITIONAL school work?

I would have less of a problem if something similar was offered to the students who didn't attend. That would lessen the feelings of peer pressure to attend. Ideally, it'd be after school so that the class isn't split up.

The problem with that, from the opposing perspective, is that if the students left behind are allowed to have "fun" the religious activity becomes less attractive. If it is held after school, then they also lose the lure of having your friends attend while you get left behind. Additionally, if it is held after school, some parents would be less inclined to allow their children to attend because of any extra hassle that might be involved.

By doing it this way, the school and the church both are dancing around the law, while at the same time violating the spirit of that law by creating an atmosphere of pressure on young children to attend a religious event. It places parents in the position of being the "bad guy" for saying "no" and forcing their child to stay behind. It also increases the chance that their child would be targeted for bullying by other students, and could even potentially raise the chance that the teachers or school administrators would treat their child differently because they don't attend their school-approved religious class.

[Warpy]

18. They think that by not having the class on school property, they're

dodging the constitutional issue. Nope, fellas, you're not.

Having this during regular class hours is the problem.

They did this shit when I was in school in NC. If you weren't Southern Baptist, you were sent off to the library for a couple of hours, fine for a bookworm like me but that made us different and therefore targets for bullies.

I'd rather have the Christian babble study club AFTER school hours, voluntary, and I don't even care if it's on school property. Letting kids out of regular classwork for Christian Protestant babble study violates that church/state barrier. They need a call from the ACLU to tell them to knock it the fuck off.

[LuvNewcastle]

22. Our politicians are always talking about

how American students are behind the rest of the world, especially in Science and Math. It's funny, then that we're giving away valuable instruction time so that the kids can have cookies and punch and hear bible stories.

[salvorhardin]

46. Sorry, Warpy. You're wrong on this one.

It's perfectly Constitutional. See my post down-thread.

[OhioBlue]

20. It seems crazy to me... but probably legal

because it is not on school grounds. I wouldn't be in favor of it, but in a small town atmosphere, I probably wouldn't rock the boat too much. I don't like it. In today's atmosphere of teaching to the test and large amounts of homework, I would much rather the extra hour be spent in the classroom to prevent extra homework or include more arts. Sucks that this school district is doing what it is... but honestly as an agnostic mother, if I were in that situation, I would probably permit my son to go if all the other children were attending and discuss it with him. I say probably.. because I would also think about transferring him to another open enroll district.

[Meldread]

You're not kidding about the homework.

The poor kid started out behind the other kids, because his previous second grade teacher was simply awful. They used to live in NY, and she took them outside three times per day - every day - even in a blizzard! They had to bring snow suits and everything. He never had homework. He didn't have spelling words. Basically, he learned nothing and it appeared as if she taught nothing.

All that's different now. Being only seven years old, he hates the change. Since he's relocated this teacher rarely gives them any recess time - I could probably count the number of times on one hand. He had recess just the other day, though, but couldn't participate because he didn't finish all his school work and had to remain in class to complete it. He has a ton of work every day, all day, has after school tutoring three times a week until later in the evening - and still comes home everyday with two to three hours worth of homework.

Basically, on the days he has tutoring after school, he works on school work from the moment class starts in the morning until the moment he eats dinner, takes a shower, and goes to bed at night. On non-tutoring days he has an hour or two to himself after homework.

To quote him after the first week: "My new teacher is CRAZY!" :P

The bright side is that he's learning a ton, and if he weren't so far behind he'd be doing awesome. The improvements he's been making - in such a short time - are remarkable.

[OhioBlue]

39. awww... poor kiddo!!!

It is great that he is learning so much and making such remarkable improvements.. for sure.

But, I truly do feel for the little guy. All work and no play makes a very unhappy 7 year old.. I'm sure. It is truly unfortunate that his previous teacher didn't prepare him and now he is forced to catch up with the rest of his class. I think all 7 year olds need recess. (a recess of course - not 3 and definitely not during a blizzard!!!) Hugs to you and hugs to your little nephew. I hope it all works out alright and hope he catches up quickly and can enjoy being a 7 year old. My son is just in preschool now but I know many family and friends who are just flabbergasted by the amount of homework that is being sent home. At times, it is just unrealistic and moving beyond normal bedtimes.

[Meldread]

40. Yeah, he's pretty unhappy about it.

It is a strong point of concern. No one in our family is happy about it... but we're not allowing him to slack either.

Thankfully, though, the teacher allows him to have free weekends. That's the one bright spot.

I agree with you, though. Young kids need at least one hour each day during school to play and socialize. This is actually one reason he likes his Bible class. They do "fun stuff" (his way of putting it), and he has more freedom to socialize and interact with the other kids in his class. When in class it's work, work, work.

I'm very proud of him though. He's doing very well from where he started, but he's also stressed out by all the work. He literally went from a VERY laid back teacher, to a teacher that believes in loading the kids down with work. It was like being thrown into a pool filled with ice water - a rude awakening, to say the least. In the beginning he attempted to claim that my sister had put him in a 5th grade class because, "2nd graders aren't supposed to have this much work!" :P

[demigoddess]

23. I remember this being done during the 50s in a couple

of places, I moved around a lot, so can't remember which states. I also hated it. turned me into an atheist.

[Meldread]

35. Maybe I'll get lucky...

...and my nephew will turn into an atheist as a result as well. :P

I doubt it, though. He's enjoying it. They get to sing songs, paint, color, and all the crap you'd expect would happen in a Sunday school class for very young children. I'm not sure if they get snacks, but I'd be shocked if they didn't.

What sane, rational, thinking seven year old is going to pass that up to instead sit - basically alone - in their class, in silence, doing a hundred or so math problems? Setting aside, of course, the fact that the majority of other kids are going and you're being left behind...

It basically puts parents in the position of being the villain, raising the chance that their child will be bullied by the other students, or treated differently by the teachers if they didn't allow their child to attend.

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[laconicsax]

36. Fails the Lemon test, so no.

-It doesn't have a secular purpose;
-It has the primary effect of advancing religion;
-It could be seen as excessive entanglement in religion.

Fails two, maybe three of the three "prongs" of the Lemon test and it only takes one to make it unconstitutional.

Also, based on the decision in Santa Fe ISD v Doe, it could be argued that an objective student would see the Bible study class as "stamped with [the] school's seal of approval," flagrantly violating the establishment clause.

[AlecBGreen]

41. I dont know the legality of it

I am no lawyer, but to me it fails the sniff test. Public school and church should not mix in this country. If you want your child to have a religious education, fine, more power to ya, but you do it on your own dime and your own time.

Sorry Meldread :( Have you contacted anyone about this? Maybe there are some other concerned parents.

[Meldread]

44. No, but I doubt it would help.

One of the reasons my nephew was upset was that only he and one other student remained behind. All the other students went to the Bible study class. If I had to guess I'd say the other kid was probably Jewish or something like that.

However, this is all taking place in a -VERY- small town. I'm not sure if I could raise an objection since the child isn't mine, but even if I could I can't be certain how well my sister and nephew would be treated as a result. Also, thanks to the responses in this thread I know that this goes on in other areas of the country as well, and that it's been brought before a court in the past and was held as Constitutional. I figured what they were doing wasn't illegal, because the whole method in which they went about it gave me the impression that both the school and the church has sought legal advice prior to doing it - and both were careful about how they threaded the needle.

As far as I can tell, the only way to really challenge this is to have an opposing group demand the school grant them equal time. For example, imagine if a Muslim group wanted to offer the same service to kids for one hour per week. The school couldn't say no because they already allow it for another group. Using the same tactics used by the Christian group, the kids would WANT to go - regardless of their religion - and the Christian parents would see things from my perspective. Of course, at the same time - without any hint of hypocrisy - they would demand that the school cease allowing the Muslim group to do it, while demanding that the Christian group be allowed to continue.

That's the only way I think it can be challenged. If the school refuses, then the group attempting to get equal time could sue them which would likely end in the school stopping the program all together, rather than allowing an opposing religion / belief system touch their kids.

[rug]

43. Zorach v. Clauson

http://supreme.justia.com/us/343/306/case.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zorach_v._Clauson

[laconicsax]

48. There's an interesting conundrum.

It clearly fails the Lemon test, but an identical issue was upheld prior to Lemon v Kurtzman. Since Lemon, the court has broadly interpreted the Lemon test, and would probably rule differently today, but precedent exists.

[Jim__]

49. Lemon v Kurtzman cites Zorach as demonstrating a valid relationship between church and state.

From Lemon v Kurtzman:

...

Our prior holdings do not call for total separation between church and state; total separation is not possible in an absolute sense. Some relationship between government and religious organizations is inevitable. Zorach v. Clauson, 343 U.S. 306, 312 (1952); Sherbert v. Verner, 374 U.S. 398, 422 (1963) (HARLAN, J., dissenting). Fire inspections, building and zoning regulations, and state requirements under compulsory school attendance laws are examples of necessary and permissible contacts. Indeed, under the statutory exemption before us in Walz, the State had a continuing burden to ascertain that the exempt property was, in fact, being used for religious worship. Judicial caveats against entanglement must recognize that the line of separation, far from being a "wall," is a blurred, indistinct, and variable barrier depending on all the circumstances of a particular relationship.

more ...

[laconicsax]

51. Not according to your quote.

They said it was an inevitable relationship, not a valid one. There's a clear distinction.

[salvorhardin]

45. Yes, totally legal. It's called Weekday Religious Education or Released-Time Christian Education.

Started in Gary, IN in 1914. Here's a brief 2005 Slate article about WRE: http://www.slate.com/id/2113611

[Meldread]

47. Thanks for the link.

I read the entire article. I still can't help but wonder how well this would hold up if an opposing religious group of a different faith / a group of non-believers attempted to set up a competing WRE on a different day. I'm rather certain that if the school rejected this they'd open themselves up to a lawsuit. To avoid the lawsuit the school would have to allow it, which would enrage the Christians who wouldn't want the competition, and likely result in the entire program being shut down.

[salvorhardin]

50. Yes, I think so.

Can you imagine the furor if a NYC school started allowing students to attend Religious Islamic Education classes? Or a California school allowed Released-Time Satanic Education? The full right wing hate machine would be instantly shifted into overdrive.

It's interesting to me that this all started in Indiana. In the past couple of years in the Fort Wayne area we've had two lawsuits of released-time Christian Education. Here it's done with trailers, ostensibly located off school grounds, but in both cases the trailers were, in fact, not only on school property but also drawing electricity from the school! And both schools lied through their teeth about it too.

The upside to these lawsuits is that Fort Wayne Community Schools ended its Weekday Religious Education program. The downside is that now the churches are putting together assembly programs for the schools. *sigh*

Here's some links about these two cases:

Indiana School Release Program Challenged
http://scienceblogs.com/dispatches/2008/11/indiana_school_release_program.php

Huntington County Community Schools Religious Controversy
http://www.indianasnewscenter.com/news/local/39104727.html

Family sues FWCS, wants religious ed trailers closed
http://www.journalgazette.net/article/20100702/LOCAL03/307029968

School official says on-campus religious-ed program likely to end
http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/news.aspx?id=23150

Churches revamping area school programs
http://www.journalgazette.net/article/20100826/LOCAL04/308269981

[Meldread]

52. Thanks for the links again, and yeah - that was my thinking as well.

My line of thinking was that if these places were forced to give equal time to other faiths - that it would enrage the RW to such a degree that they'd shut the whole thing down. ...and it's a forgone conclusion that the RW would kick the enraged hate machine into overdrive with more than a little dash of self-martyrdom thrown in for good measure. That's why it'd work - they're predictable like that.

Hell, if a LIBERAL Christian group wanted to do the same thing they'd be enraged. It's almost funny. Just imagine such a group teaching that Jesus loves gay people, and that it's acceptable for gays to get married. As an atheist I'd want popcorn for that inter-faith battle.

[salvorhardin]

53. I think it'd depend on the community

For instance, here in Fort Wayne there's an alliance of local churches that runs the released-time program so the kids who do attend are getting a pretty sanitized version of Christianity. Still, they decided to shut it down rather than comply with the Constitution. The small town where I grew up, each church (there were only four -- one each of Catholic, Baptist, Presbyterian and Methodist) ran their own program so the Baptist kids got a stronger hellfire-and-brimstone message than the Methodist kids did while the Catholic kids got full calisthenics for their guilt, followed by milk and cookies. I think a very liberal Christian church could do fine in that sort of environment. Although I think it's telling that it's never been tried yet.