The Biblical problem of Right Wing Fundamentalism

[Perky]

As I have now bee posting on this site for over four years, I have witnessed a lot of discussion about my dear friend on the right wing wing of Christianity. Most of the criticism is justified because their tactics are so atrocious.


I thought I might introduce what I see as the real theological problem the fundies have as a means of carrying this important debate a bit beyond the daily rants.

FUndamentalism at the core is about the supremacy of Scripture, There are varying views on the literal interpretation and how far to take it in one';s own life. AS for me and issues of devotion and personal faith to each his own.

But the issue that comes up is two fold....THe role of evangelism and the role of fundamentalism in our public lives.

God certainly in His infinite wisdom created law which to our pose moder and pluralistic minds seem pretty whacked. The issue of inerrancy is an important issue for fundies, because quite honestly it is sort of difficult to have no explanation for thing is Scripture and at the same time ardently believe that A GOd of wisdom and power and grace would allow anything to be canonized which would be either error or untrue. Ts believe that He would is incredibly disturbing even if our minds can't comprehend why?

Where fundies get all out of whack is when they overreach on the intent of Biblical claims. Mosaic Law was not meant for the entire world. It was meant for the people that he set apart. It was to teach them how to live in the Land he was giving them and how to live with one another within that community.

Right Wing Fundies seek to impose that directive on everyone either through politics or evangelism and it will not work. In fact...it is Heresy because it equates political and spiritual power as a means of advancing the Kingdom message.

THis is precisely why Jesus railed upon the Pharisees: Why Paul says, some posses a form of Godliness but deny the power thereof.

The Kingdom of God is not advance through the art of politics.

THis, I believe, it the heart of the problem with the fundy's obsession with seeking to impose a Biblical world view on a a post-modern and pluralistic society.

I have had the opportunity to expose this fallacy to many well meaning bust certainly self-righteous Christian and they wilt.

I offer this in this forum as clarifying information and hopefully as a dialog starter between Christians on the site and others who are tired of the the daily rants.

[longship]

1. An atheist kicks it.

:kick:

[Perky]

9. Umm thanks....I think

[Inland]

2. The Old testament law has ALWAYS BEEN problematic

The solution that early christians settled on was Paul's vision, which is, the gentile christians were NOT jewish and were NOT bound by jewish law.

So why do fundies keep selectively picking bits and pieces from the old testament when it suits them?

Mostly convenience. A clause that can be construed against whacking off is Old Law, whereas a clause that can be construed against gay sex is in the Permanent Law for Everyone folder. Mainly because gays are a smaller subset than the masturbators.

But it's also something else: bright line rules ("DON'T") are easier to understand and follow than the teachings of Jesus. I mean, I know what No Adultery means. I even know Honor FAther and Mother, to an extent. But blessed are the meek? Tough to understand, tough to follow.

People like rules, concrete, knowable rules. They just do.

[Perky]

4. I don't think you can view Judaic (OT) law without it contect.

Christian of many ilks feel that cotect is a slippery slope to existentialism. I get that. but to take scripture as....well...Gospel apart from its very uniques setting is really asking for trouble.


In fact I might even argue that looking at Biblical intent through 1950s glasses is reallly asking for trouble. You can't get there from here using Bible-speak.

RWFs will tell you that the worlf started going tohell when SCOTUS and the ACLUY took Prayer out of the Classroom. My response is always why would you want to pray in the classroom anyway? THey prayesrs were not the least bit evangelical and why do you think we have rights in the context of the public square that other don't have?

Othere will argue that CHristians founded this country to ezcape persecution in Europe, TO with I respond. then why did they permit slavery to evern get started and why did they Blithely sit by and allow the eradication of native americans? Perhaps the sines of our forefathers are continues upon our heads as well.

[phiddle]

5. I observe that, together with the Old Testament,

the fundies love the works of Paul, and pay scant attention to the gospels, leaving them to the liberal churches. Is this right, and if so, then why?

[DanCa]

3. Howcome no one protests the right wing churches?

I am not talking about the people in the pews. I will stand up for anyones right to thier first ammendement. However the elders in my church give me the right to protest and picket anyone who deny me the basic right to walk because they deem an embryo more important than me. I believe it was, and please correct me if i am wrong, FDR, who once said, my rights begin where your nose ends. No one has the right to tell another being of how I can live die walk or pray or not to.

I am a stem cell advocate and disability lobbyist and the subject of protesting the catholic bishop council, dobsons bunch, falwell, the 700 club and others is taboo at best. So am asking my friends on this page is thier any way that my family on this page can ban together and protest the right wing loonies?

To me it doesn't matter if someone's a catholic, an athesist, a protestant, a jew, a wiccan, gay, or the stance on choice. We are all democrats and greens. It's time to unite against the RW bullies. And I bet if we give them a black eye they'll leave us alone. Remember were all on the same team Danny.
Thank you all. Peace and joy Danny.

[Perky]

8. I thnk it is a very interseting issue

Why the Church does not protest against others in the CHurch/

It seems to me that the Right withing the Church pretty much owns the church's microphone.

I think that is due to a couple of things

first, they got organized primarily through effective use of the media

Second what might be termed "liberal Churches" got caught up in a whole variety of issues and were tagged and I think somewhat correctly as beoing more for liberal causes then they were for evangelism or even more generically Doctrinal Christianity.This sapped their credibility among larger denominational movements to the point where the National Council of Churches is n longer a creble religious force,

This. the vast majority in the middle or perhaps more correcly their leadership chose not to engage but chose the role of servant to their communities and grew inward and spirutal and perhaps evangelical but they basically chose a different path.

Bible says that Judgment begins in the Hous of God. THat baiscally means we are not called to judge the world until we judge ourselve.


I wish someone would call Pat Robertson out for some of the dastardly thing he says. I wish theire was a revolt when Falwell was merchandising a videotap claiming the Bill Clinton Murdered Vince Foster.

Sadly there wosolutely no one other than may someone like a Jim Wallis or TOny Campolo willing to take these bozos on a Biblical Basis. I suspect there willbe a day of recoknoning for those who preach hatred....but also for those who stood by and said nothing.

[DanCa]

10. Actually my friend i was wondering if athiests and liberal christians

would ever work together to shut the fundies down. Recently at a parkinson's action network tele-conference I suggested that we picket Dobson for being against stem cell research. They practically hushed me up. They were nice about it but they were so quick to dismiss my idea.
I still go to church and I am not mad at god - or the people in the pews - just at the policy makers who are transposing thier viewpoints into laws that effect us all.

[Perky]

11. I would join the protest in heartbeat

If it were purely a CHrisitian protest on CHristian principles. THe CHrisitan left typically lacks credibility because they are not typically evangelical and point more towards traditional liberal causes then they do to the saving grace of Christ. You can do both but it has to be Christ-centered and evangelical


Tactically, what is the right going to do with opposition from evangelicals? You basically cut their legs off.

You find me a Church on the evangelical left and I will start painting signs

[DanCa]

13. I see what your saying

It's just so damn frustrating at times. I really resent the rights strangle hold on christianity it seems like there's no way to break out of it. And until the left gets more organized they'll continue to pick off vocal disenters one by one. I really miss the days of Jimmy Carter and even Bill Clinton when the lines of church and state were respected.

[happyslug]

6. I once argued with a fundamentalist about the "Great Apostasy".

Under Fundamentalist teachings when the end times comes, a "Great Apostasy" is to occur i.e. a hearsay so bad that is rejects Christianity while calling itself Christian, this church will be controlled by the Devil in the end times.

Fundamentalist says the "Great Apostasy" occurred under Pope Gregory I (about 570AD) when the Roman imperial forces retreated to Southern Italy do to the invasions of the Lombards. Do to the Invasion Pope Gregory the Great (Pope Gregory I), took over more and more of the traditional powers of the City of Rome for the papacy and thus converted Rome from a major city in the Roman Empire to being a city run by the Catholic Church (The Emperor had for over a Century been living in Constantinople and from this time forward the Rump of the Roman Empire around Constantinople is often called the Byzantine Empire to distinguish it from the Earlier Roman Empire even through the Empire called itself the "Roman Republic" from the time of Augustus till the Turks took Constantinople in 1453 AD).

What the Fundamentalist say is the Catholic Church became to secular and corrupt do to taking over the Roman Political machine in the West. This started under Gregory the Great and this is the "Great Apostasy" predicted in the Bible. I point out if that is true than the Catholic Church has been in Apostasy for over 1500 years? and than point out for almost a 1000 of those years PROTESTANTS including the Fundamentalist were part of that Church. Thus how can 1500 years be the "End of time" and how can a church stay under the control of the Devil (Which is what is meant by the term the "Great Apostasy") for 1500 years?

I than pointed out the better way to look at this is that the Catholics are NOT in Apostasy but one of the many threads of Christian thought developed over the last 1500 years. The Orthodox is also part of that fabric as is mainline Protestantism (Having survived over 500 years). Furthermore basic concept of helping their fellow man be it through charity of Government assistance is a basic theme through all three traditions (along with Charity and the Just War Doctrine). The only group that rejects these concept are the Fundamentalist.

Example of this Apostasy among the fundamentalist is legion, for example taxation to raise funds to help the poor is called "Theft" instead of Charity that is Apostasy. When dog eat dog Capitalism is called a Christian way to set up a society, that is an Apostasy, To justify a war of Aggression is an Apostasy. To equal the flag of the US to Christ is Apostasy. To say that the wealthy owns no duty to the poor is an Apostasy. Except for acknowledging Christ as Saviour most Fundamentalist doctrine is a rejection of main line Christian thinking of the last 2000 years.

In simple terms, the only Christian Group in complete and almost total Apostasy to the teaching of Christ is the Fundamentalist Right, thus it is the Fundamentalist Right that is the "Great Apostasy" predicted in the bible and the "Church" that will be used by Satan in his attempt to take over the world.

[MsUnderstood]

7. It is an obvious problem of picking apples

When you go out to the field, and see the perfect tree--you don't pull down all the apples, you get the ones that look good to you.

Same with fundies--they don't read all of the scripture in context and apply the knowledge of historic context--they simply read 10 words and say "that means we should kill homosexuals!"

Jehovah Witnesses apply scripture to stop their church from celebrating holidays, voting or engaging in any politics, and to teach their members to shun members who don't follow the pathway.

Catholics apply words from the same book to create a "Virgin" goddess, and "Holy Spirit".

You want to fix fundies or religious zealots but you can't because if you try to teach them the bible they tell you your information is out of context while the stuff they pull out is completely out of context.

[LaurenG]

12. Or if you go further

and explain the metaphysics of it - it will make their heads spin and they WILL call you names... I see NO reason to try and explain anything to them. People really don't want to know the truth anyway, it's way too scary for most.