Your opinions please - when I say * is not a Christian

[Jo March]

Is that judging him? Also, is that judging the people who voted for him? Someone challenged my statement on DU that "* and his ilk are not Christians." He said that it made him sick and he didn't want to read any more of my posts. (He is not a DUer - just reads my posts. Long story)

The person who said that is a repub and voted for * twice.

Am I judging * and his followers by pointing out that he does not follow the teachings of Christ and, therefore is not a Christian? Or am I allowed, by Biblical teachings, to point out a false Christian, a Pharasee, when I see one?

I am truly upset because I really do try not to judge what's in a person's heart because I believe that only God knows what is in our hearts. I do think, however, when you live your life publically in a way that is so opposite of Christ's teachings that anyone can plainly see (and point out) that the person is not a Christian as they claim to be.

Opinions on this?

[Rose Siding]

1. When I make that point,

I usually frame it as "ask yourself: how does it square with your beliefs for a person to _________?" (insert questionable moral bush behavior of your choice)

It's nitpicky, but the point will be made.

[Jo March]

17. I did that

I was still accused of being judgemental not only of * but also of the person who emailed me. He felt that I was judging him and everyone who voted for * because I said "* and his ilk." By "his ilk" I meant Rice, Cheney, Wolfowitz, Rumsfeld.

Sigh. This person is a 29 percenter, all the way.

[Lexingtonian]

26. This person has made the judgment

that Bush is a Christian. Ask him to explain/justify it to you, not the other way around.

[Jo March]

61. I never thought to do that!

Of course, I'd probably get, "Well, * says he is and that's good enough for me."

x(

[Lexingtonian]

85. if so

Your easy comeback is "If Satan were incarnated as George W. Bush, wouldn't he claim the same thing?"

When you scratch these "religious" people hard enough, in my experience their support for Republicans always comes down to soft versions of the usual ones: material possessiveness, white male privilege, racism, exceptionalist claims to civilization (but strangely immoral in practice), etc.

[GreenArrow]

2. he's not a Christian.

"Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves (Matt. 7:15).

He is a wolf.

[trotsky]

3. But the problem is, "Christ's teachings" aren't plain to see.

There's quite a bit of legitimate disagreement over them.

[Jo March]

6. Jesus Himself said that the most important commandment is

"Love thy neighbor." So, it all flows from there, right? Caring for the poor and the downtrodden, loving your neighbor, helping those who need it - those are all the teachings of Christ. Christ lays it all out pretty clearly and I didn't see hate-mongering and bombing the crap out of innocents in there anywhere.

I can't reconcile anything that * does to what Christ taught. Does that mean that I'm judging * and all of his followers?

[trotsky]

7. It flows from there? Hehe.

The problems start there, more like it. Who's your neighbor? What does it mean to love them? Is "tough love" OK?

Bombing the crap out of innocents - what about WW2? Many innocents were lost in that conflict, but did the Allies have any other choice?

Not so easy, is it? Do you see where it becomes tough to nail down exactly what those teachings are?

[Jo March]

10. I see what you're saying but Christ's teachings don't change

How we apply them does. That's where the trouble starts.

Your neighbor is anyone and everyone. We shouldn't even ask, "Is he/she my neighbor?" We should just follow the example that Christ laid out in the story of the Good Samaritan and treat everyone as a neighbor. We are all neighbors - everyone across the globe.

I can't see Jesus endorsing tough love, no. In the story of the Prodigal Son, the father does not use tough love on his wandering son. He lets the son make his mistakes but welcomes him back and forgives him.

WWII was far different than this war on terror and everyone who isn't a white Christian that we are stuck in. We had to do what we had to do but that doesn't mean that killing was suddenly taken out of the 10 Commandments. The story of Moses demonstrates that.

Anyway, I don't mean to get too preachy. I just think that "love thy neighbor" is pretty easy to follow if you remember that we are all children of God and, as such, neighbors and deserving of love and respect.

[trotsky]

32. They might not change,

but what ARE they is the question. And too, how to apply them.

There is actually some disagreement on the tale of the Good Samaritan, by the way. If you read the story carefully, you will see at the end that Jesus calls the *Good Samaritan* the neighbor of the wounded man, not vice-versa.

And the point about WW2 is that sometimes innocents are killed for a greater good. In the case of that war, it definitely spared more innocents.

So no, "love thy neighbor" isn't that easy to follow. There are plenty of exceptions, and plenty of freedom to interpret "love" and "neighbor" in many different ways.

[Jo March]

39. Oh, interpretation is everything, isn't it?

People can stretch out verses of the Bible until they resemble nothing of what they started out to be.

My dad could read the Bible and swear up and down that God created Adam and Eve before all of the animals. When my sister and I would show him the verses that proved him wrong, he'd say, "Then your Bible is wrong."

So, I unfortunately know about interpretation. Fred Phelps is another one who probably scours the Good Book looking for loopholes in that whole "love thy neighbor" commandment!

[trotsky]

42. Problem is,

they look at your interpretation and think you're using loopholes, too.

Do you understand yet?

[Jo March]

45. Oh, I understand. That's the whole crux of the matter

Here we all sit, playing, "Who's more Christian?" and it gets neither side anywhere.

Jesus wept. Indeed.

However, I have never heard Falwell, Robertson or Phelps quote Jesus on anything but adultery. I've never heard them preach the verses about love and being kind and letting go of earthly possessions. Have you?

[trotsky]

53. Sure I've heard them preach on those things.

Generally it's in the context of "love the sinner, hate the sin" and not letting earthly possessions get in the way of your relationship with Jesus. I mean, do YOU give everything to the poor, as Jesus commanded? If you don't, you're not on very firm moral ground to criticize them for that.

On the flip side, I don't see Christian DUers talk much about the "weeping and gnashing of teeth" parts of what Jesus said, either.

[Jo March]

60. I've watched them and I never hear about the loving teachings of Christ

I mostly hear hate.

Interesting point about giving everything to the poor. What is the definition of everything - our houses, our clothes? We are instructed to tithe 10%

All Christians will fail to come up to the perfection of Christ.

[Igel]

175. Jesus told one guy--

a wealthy, and fairly young man, IIRC--to sell "all that he had" and give it to the poor. That's pretty all inclusive.

The guy went away sorry; he was righteous--presumably in the way that men can be righteous, not perfect (BTW, how did Jesus define 'righteous'?). But not perfect.

His problem wasn't that he was wealthy; it's that he loved his possessions. Selling everything would be virtuous (in general, of course: it may show complete and unmitigated contempt to your family), and early Christians often did so. But the point of the tale is that loving your possessions is wrong; first love God, then your fellow. A point made in numerous other ways by Jesus over his ministry.

[unpossibles]

34. tell them you "hate the sin" not the sinner

:D

I am not a Christian, but am fairly fascinated with religion in general, including Christianity.

This sounds like typical hypocrisy to me: like when they complain about partisan politics, but threw the first punch, much like when they call someone intolerant for pointing out someone's racism.

[Jo March]

46. I'm sure that nonChristians look at us like we're nuts

We seem to have more denominations than you can shake a stick at and everyone is clamoring that only their group will go to Heaven.

Yes, Jesus is weeping.

[unpossibles]

49. if it helps, I think everyone is a little nuts

including myself. :D

believe what you will and enjoy life.

Generally, I find the teachings of Jesus (and other religious prophets) to be very profound and wise. I just wish more fundamentalist Christians felt the same way, and tried to understand how to love each other and treat each other, the earth, and everything on it as their religion says: if God is truly everywhere, then show some respect to God by showing respect to people, animals, and the planet.

That is not a condemnation of you, and yes, I suppose I am being judgemental as well. it's a difficult quesiton (your original post) and a good one.

Peace

:D

[Jo March]

62. Thank you for your kind words

Yes, the teachings of Christ are beautiful and wise. When I listen to a preacher repeat them, I feel as though I am filled with love and peace.

When I listen to *, I feel full of anger and disgust.

God is truly everywhere and it would do well for all Christians to remember that and show more respect, like you said, to each other, animals and the planet.

[GreenArrow]

81. "When I listen to *, I feel full of anger and disgust."

That's because Bush mocks. He mocks and he knows he mocks. The smirk does not lie; it tells us what he really thinks.

[Jo March]

87. I can hear the mocking. I hear it.

That's why I say that he's not a Christian but I will NOT do that anymore.

"* says that he is a Christian but his actions are 100% the opposite of the teachings of Christ."

[Igel]

174. No, he didn't.

The 'great commandment' is to love God with all your heart.

And the second, similar to the first, is to love your neighbor as yourself.

Many have decided that the first doesn't matter.

[Warpy]

4. Talk is cheap, and at some point you need to acknowledge

a total disconnect between words and actions.

For instance, the Nazis had the word "socialist" in their party name. Were they socialist? Was a single action socialist? Remember, the socialists were the second group they rounded up and murdered.

Then there was Stalin, who called himself a communist. Was the feudalism he reorganized around a party aristocracy instead of the old royal aristocracy any closer to Marx than the system it supplanted?

I can call myself a living Barbie doll, but I'm sure you'd find the disconnect between the words and the reality quite pronounced.

The fact is that Stupid's policies are one hundred percent anti Christian, no matter what he claims to be "in his heart."

And that is where the problem comes in.

[Jo March]

18. But did I cross the line into judgement?

Saying "*'s policies are 100% anti-Christian" is a whole lot different than saying, "* is not a Christian."

Is one judgemental and the other one acceptable?

[BOSSHOG]

5. To say bush is not a christian

is not a judgement it is a statement of fact. If someone does not want to read your posts, don't stop them. I judge people who voted for bush to be ignorant, constitution hating lunatics who do not deserve constitutional liberties. Don't beat yourself up because some facist motherfucker is troubled when you speak the truth. And it is extremely difficult to judge what is in a person's heart when that person does not have a heart. Go ahead, aggravate the piss out of some religiously insane lunatic today by telling the truth. I look forward to the civil war.

[Jo March]

8. His family voted for * because he is a "Christian"

I can understand that because they are a faith-filled family - salt of the earth type of people who seem to be pretty peaceful and loving. I can understand being lead astray and chosing wrong. It is never easy to believe that you could be so wrong about a person and then being wrong enough to vote for him twice. I can't reconcile their strong beliefs with voting for *. It just doesn't compute.

* is a wolf. Everything that he has done proves that he is not a follower of Christ. Why, then, is it so bad to point that out? That somehow makes me a bad person? Pope John Paul II had serious doubts about * as well. PJPII wasn't exactly a communist, tree-hugging, atheist was he?

You know, when Clinton was in office, he was called everything but a son of God. Now it's suddenly wrong to question *?

I am just getting sick of this. I want to take my religion back from the Wolf-in-Chief.

[BOSSHOG]

12. bush supporters are incredibly proud

therefore it is almost impossible for them to admit the truth about the drug addicted, military deserter and corporate criminal all rolled into one. They proudly cast their vote for their candidate because they did the right thing for America. No doubt they privately flagellate themselves but to publicly admit to a liberal they were just dumbass lemmings sucked in by a criminal machine, no way?

[Jo March]

24. If you met this guy's parents, you'd see what I mean

They are honest, hard-working, gentle and kind. They are people you'd love to meet and be proud to know. But they voted for * and I just can't reconcile it to the kind of people they are. They aren't war-mongers or greedy people.

Even my "friend" is not violent or a bigot or anything like that. He is an admitted capitalist but that's as radical as he gets. ;)

[Arkansas Granny]

28. These are the people who believe Bush is a Christian because

Bush says he's a Christian. Some people can't imagine someone lying about that so they take it on faith just because he says so. They don't bother to notice that his action don't match his words.

[Jo March]

37. But why?!? Why don't they notice?

I just don't understand it. I can see it clearly.

How can good Christian people not see * for what he is - a hypocrite, a false prophet, a wolf??

[Arkansas Granny]

43. When you don't want to see something or when you don't want

to be proven wrong, it's very easy to turn a blind eye and deny the truth. Bush's supporters have gotten so much practice at doing this that it is second nature to them now. They don't even notice the great divide between the truth and what they've been told.

[Jo March]

47. I'm too stubborn to admit when I've been wrong too

Funny thing is, I can look at Clinton and name many things that he did that I do not agree with. Many * supporters can't or won't name one thing that * has done that they don't think is just great. How can that be?

For folks to say that * has done everything right is blasphemy as he is not perfect. He is a man and makes mistakes. Only thing is, the things he does are not mistakes. They are purposeful.

[muriel_volestrangler]

59. You could point out to him that Kerry is a Christian too

and then give your reasons why you think Kerry follows the example of Jesus better than Bush does. If this person is implying that Bush is a Christian, but Kerry isn't, then he's definitely judging too.

Personally I say anyone who believes Jesus was divine is a Christian. The Bible sets out an incredibly difficult standard (always turn the other cheek, love your enemy, give all your wealth for the benefit of the poor), that vanishingly few people have managed in history - St Francis of Assisi, and a few like him.

I think you do judge someone if you say they're not a Christian (ironically, you're not meant to do that either, "lest you be judged"), but just about everyone does. Inevitably we think that some people follow the biblical teachings better than others.

[Jo March]

63. Thank you for your honest post

I was not seeking to have my view solidified but challenged. That is what I love about DU. I never fail to be challenged by you guys!!

Kerry's Christianity was downplayed, questioned and dismissed. People who voted for * because he says he is a Christian refused to even acknowledge that Kerry is a Christian.

I believe that Kerry is a Christian because his works and actions back up his faith.

I do not want to judge because we all fall short of the glory. I do want to point out the hypocrisy and try to begin to take back my religion, though. I feel that I have to do that.

[cpamomfromtexas]

9. You're not judging, you're INSPECTING THE FRUIT ON THE TREE

He bears BAD FRUIT for everyone except the chosen few.

[Jo March]

13. Interesting analogy

The lack of remorse for the war dead, the riches that he is reaping from the backs of the poor, joking about prisoners being put to death, refusing to admit that he made mistakes, gutting programs for the poor, lying repeatedly and then lying about the lies - it's a bitter piece of fruit, isn't it?

[cpamomfromtexas]

25. Absolutely, and a little off topic but here goes.

Actually one of *'s buddies goes to my church. I'd been observing everyone's kowtowing for a while and it took me a bit to put the pieces together. It's sickening, truly, I googled this guy and got really scared. How out of touch people are with the needs of others.

I'm not on the bottom end of the spectrum by any means, but I've taken it as my mission to teach others how to get by on much less and do for yourselves. This includes growing food and doing things the old ways, cutting coupons, buying used items, shopping on ebay from small businesses and staying out of big box retailers as much as I can, cooking from scratch (healthier too)--you name it. I think I'm turning into a fanatic.

My whole basis for this behavior is that I believe Jesus wants us all to prosper (and not be slaves to the corporation that can cut our throats so easily) so we can help as many others as we can. With inflation eating us alive, it's making his mission all that much harder because it makes it harder for regular people to even take care of themselves and be debt free. For me it's an ethics issue and I try to convert as many to this as I can and away from the fascist corporate media advertising blitz as I can.

When I was a kid my dad taught us that the day would come that only people that knew how to do things would survive. My friend, I think we're dangerously close to that.

[nancyr]

11. Only my opinion.

A person is judged according to his actions: you didn't make up the rule, did you? We can only "judge" according to what we see as the end results of someone's actions. Odd that sometimes the ones who proclaim their Christianity the loudest are those who display absolutely no outward signs of Christianity! Hypocrites, in other words.

[sinkingfeeling]

14. No, you're just stating facts. If you were me, you'd say something along

these lines, "Bush is not a Christian. He ignores all of Christ's teachings. He should burn in hell."
That's judging him.

[SacredCow]

15. "Christianity" and the degrees thereof...

Are but a construct of humankind. I learned a long time ago that the number one reason people turn away from Christ is "Christians."

That said, I don't much think that * has too many powerful convictions other than following the money and power trail. And using topics that whip up the religious right into a frenzy is just a weapon in his arsenal.

[Jo March]

21. And Christians on the left are constantly silenced by those who say

"You are being judgemental! That is God's job, not yours!" And then, bam! We feel horrible because we do not want to appear to be ignoring the teachings of Christ by judging others. It works pretty well to keep us silenced, I guess.

I just remember the outcry during the Monica Lewinski mess. It seemed as though there was no end to religious leaders from the right who were more than willing to question Clinton.

Clinton committed a sin. All Christians sin. All humans sin against one another. * seems to go out of his way to spout off something that sounds religious and then do the exact opposite. To me, that seems anti-Christian.

[SacredCow]

29. It points to something inherently hateful and deceitful in their nature...

And they defend their words and actions by saying "It's not MY agenda... It's GOD's agenda."

I consider myself a Christian, but as a gay man it's a very cautious kind of Christianity. I don't think I'll ever truly be a member of the club, so to speak. But that's OK, because I've made my peace in that respect. I live a good and decent lifestyle and will be judged by what's in my heart- whether Fred Phelps likes it or not! Organized religion is a thing of mankind, and therefore flawed by nature.

[Jo March]

38. Great post. I agree with you on the organized religion thing

It is something that was created by mankind. Adam and Eve didn't exactly have the First National Church of Eden, did they?

Don't get me wrong. I love my church but the church acts as an entity. It does the best that it can when making decisions. The elders pray for guidance but we are all human. As such, mistakes are made.

I would be very proud to know you, SacredCow. I hope that we will be able to meet one day - and hopefully not in the Halliburton Rehabilitation Camps! ;)

[SacredCow]

54. Awww- Thanks, arnheim...

This is a topic that has caused me great stress in the past, as I've had a very fractured spiritual journey. I have started to attend services where my significant other sings, and it's been a good experience so far.

And I'd also be glad to meet ya! If we do end up in the Halliburton Camp together, we could surely incite a rebellion or two!

[Jo March]

64. We shall incite rebellion - and blame it on trotsky! ;)

I am glad that you are attending services. Everyone has their own spiritual journey and I wish you well on yours.

:hug:

[acmejack]

16. Who am I to say?

In a just world, undoubtedly not, in the world as many obviously perceive it, apparently so...

[JohnnyRingo]

19. Those in public office are open to judgment....It's why we vote

Ask the friend how they refer to Bill Clinton...Is he a big liar? A womanizer? A murderer?

I suspect hypocrisy

[Jo March]

22. I'd rather not go there with him

I remember going through Clinton conversations with him in years past. Not happiness.

[mntleo2]

20. Being Rich And Calling Yourself A Christian Is An Oxymoron

...as I said in another thread today you cannot be rich and then say you are a Christian. It is plain this was the centerpoint of Jesus' ministry. A good Chrsitian is modest in all things especially when it comes to having more than they need.

Even in the time of Jesus, the rich had certain moral obligations to their communities to give back to it. They had to forgive all debt every 7 years, they had to give to those who lived in poverty, they had to contribute to the better good of the community using their wealth and their free time. Even if a wealthy person did all those things, Jesus said, "It is harder for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven than for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle..." The wealthy have construed this to mean something else. They say that there was a gate in Jerusalem that was so small a camel had to get on its knees in order to pass through it. Therefore if they stay "on their knees" somehow it is ok for them to keep hoarding all of what they have taken from the rest of the world. But this is not the message and they know it, it is merely a justification that they use. Therefore if they say they are Christians and do not give up all their wealth, they are liars.

Bush has taken from the poor and middle class in this country by allowing the rich not to not pay taxes to this nation as well as now wanting to repeal the Estate taxes that would only benefit the upper .05%. When he signs it into law he is only benefiting a few priviliged while making the rest of us make up for it to pay for his wars, debt and uncontested contracts that only enrich his buddies ~ one of them being himself. He is part of the rich giving themselves another trillion dollars of our tax dollars to keep and not share. It is incumbant on every American to ask themselves just how this is going to be replaced. Hint: the rich will not replace it and Bush knows this, WE will. According to the Bible, this is totally immoral (worse than adultry) and it is not Christian, it is plain that being greedy and insisting on possessing more than you can use in a lifetime is a terrible sin.

It is obvious, that greed causes most of the misery in this world. With greed as its basis, the lust for wealth causes wars and murder, it breeds starvation and disease, it creates misery and injustice.

Period.

My 2 cents

Cat In Seattle

[Jo March]

23. Excellent posts but the question still remains

Am I being judgemental by saying that * is not a Christian? Is that a call I can make?

My "friend" says that we can't know what is in a person's heart but I think that I can make a pretty darn good guess based on *'s actions. His actions are 100% the opposite of Christ's teachings.

So, am I calling a spade a spade or being judgemental?

[mntleo2]

33. Good Question! Being Judgmental ~ What IS That?

...we have to judge in this life. Here is what I mean: Perhaps someone coming toward you with a knife cautions you to run. Is that not being judgmental of that person's character? Is he a murderer? Perhaps hs is merely carrying it because there is a job requiring a knife that you do not know about. It is up to you to choose what you would do in order to make sure you are safe, and that is by judgment.

By presenting the facts, and then coming to any conclusion is just going to involve judgment. We need to judge in order to make it in our world! IMO when Jesus said, "Judge ye not lest ye be judged" he is speaking as to how we handle life. We will be harsher judges to others if we are harsh and cold by nature. If we love God with all our hearts and our neighbors as wel love ourselves, we cannot be harsh it makes us more humane.

I think Jesus knew that judging in order to make things better has to do with looking at someone's actions and then deciding what the motive is ~ especially when they pretend their motives are different than they really are. If you are true and good, then most often your motives are and your actions will speak them. If you are not, then what you set into action is chaos, lies, smoke and mirrors. A true Christian is transparent and works for the good of others as well as themselves (and even though right now we are only speaking of Christians, for that matter this is also true for Muslems, Jews, Buddhists Hindus,and any other person of spirit). Therefore IMO it is not bad to see what someone is doing that causes harm and pointing it out because it needs to be done in order to make things better. One of the worse things is to be "blind" to the truth and not do anything about it, IMO.

My 2 cents

Cat In Seattle

[Jo March]

41. So, are we sinning if we view sin and don't point it out?

If we see someone sinning and don't say anything, are we sinning as well?

Yes, we do make judgement calls all of the time.

Of course, questioning someone's Christianity is taboo. We can never, ever say, "That person is not a Christian." Or can we? I am looking for some guidance. I need to talk to my preacher as well but I wanted to hear from DUers too.

Again, I will start saying, "* calls himself a Christian but his actions are 100% against the teachings of Christ." Maybe that will keep me out of trouble.

[Brentos]

40. Obervation:

"Jesus said, "It is harder for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven than for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle..." The wealthy have construed this to mean something else. They say that there was a gate in Jerusalem that was so small a camel had to get on its knees in order to pass through it."

It is impossible for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. For if one believes that ones riches are their own, they deny that everything is God's. We are supposed to be good stewards of God's treasures, we have none ourselves. If we recognize that, we realize that each of us is given different treasures and gifts of God's to be stewards of, and we are supposed to act on the will of God.

So, someone with tons of money can be Christian, can enter the kingdom of Heaven, if he realizes that it is God's treasure and acts accordingly, following Jesus' examples.

[Goblinmonger]

27. The religious right may very likely say that you

and your ilk are not true christians because you don't do X. Who's right. As trotsky pointed out, there is A LOT of ambiguity in the bible and the teachings of Jesus to determine who is right.

He says he's a christian, he says he believes in god, he says that Jesus was divine--I take him at his word as I do you. He appears to me to be a shitbag of a Christian, but a Christian none-the-less.

[Jo March]

30. I love your sig line, btw

:D

I am going to try and be more careful in how I frame things.

How about this, "* may call himself a Christian but his actions are 100% the opposite of the teachings of Christ."?

FWIW, I don't believe there is a lot of ambiguity in the Bible. What Jesus teaches is pretty straightforward. :)

[Goblinmonger]

31. Thanks, pushes two hot buttons on DU

loads of fun!!!!

I have no problem with that. Like trostsky said upthread, the problem I have is when people try to disown all the bad Christians so that it can never look like a Christian has done anything bad. That is a fallacy of logic and drives a lot of us crazy.

I think there is a lot of ambiguity in Jesus' teaching. It seems too simplistic to just say "love your neighbor." Jesus said that and then went Billy Apeshit on the moneychangers. Weren't they his neighbor? What about our lives? What if you neighbor is raping your daughter? How does "love your neighbor" apply then? What if they are trying to kill you? Can you not try to defend yourself and kill them first?

I have no problem with people trying to follow the positive lessons of the bible. I think you will find that those are, in my opinion, general life rules that most "good" people follow regardless of their religion.

[mntleo2]

35. And "Loving" Is A Big Word

...I might add. Sometimes it is loving to remove that rapist from society so they do not do harm to others (as well as themselves by again putting another blight on their hearts). And again THAT is judgment... The Greeks had three types of love; philos, love of your neighbor, agape, love of the world, and eros love of a spouse or partner. I might add that perhaps ego is love of ones' self. These kinds of love can be very different and some kinds of love involve them all. One of the challenges of the truly spiritual person is finding a balance between all of these loves and having the forgiveness of oneself as well as others in order to sleep at night.

My 2 cents

Cat In Seattle

[Jo March]

36. Christ Himself was perfect

That we are trying to follow His teachings is a good thing but we will all fall short of perfection. That is a given.

I don't think that Christians are trying to make it seems as though no Christian ever did anything bad in the history of the world. We are trying to weed out the false prophets and the ones who are sinning and trying to twist it to look as though they are doing their misdeeds in the name of Christ (like * and this gay marriage crap).

We do try and differientiate between those who would pervert the teachings of Christ from those who are true believers and followers.

Faith comes from acknowledging that God will handle our ultimate judgement. I do not think that loving your neighbor means that you have to just lay down and let yourself be raped, no. However, if you act against the rapist by, say, killing him, then you will have to answer for that sin, too.

Also, Jesus did not harm the Moneychangers in the temple, if you read the passage. He overturned their tables and ran them off. He did not lift a hand against them to harm them. He saw a sin in progress and stopped the sin but in a way that did not hurt anyone.

I believe that if someone slaps me, then I have to turn the other cheek. I also believe that Jesus will allow me to get away from that person, hate the sin they have committed against them but still love that person as a child of God.

Make sense? Probably not. I don't do well when I'm typing out what I believe, I guess.

[moobu2]

44. Bush is a good Christian, maybe even a great one.

I cant see any reason why anyone would say wasnt.

[Jo March]

48. Depends on your definition of "Christian"

What, in your mind, does it mean to be a Christian? Does * match up to what your understanding of a Christian is?

[moobu2]

50. Hateful, we’re better than you,

us against them, the end justifies the means, mob justice.. phrases like that best describe what main stream Christianity is to me. So to me, Bush is a pretty good mainstream Christian.

[Jo March]

65. Argh! That is not what Christianity is all about

I understand why you feel that it is. After all, I said upthread that I haven't heard much preaching of love, peace and forgiveness lately.

The things that you stated are all 100% opposite of the teachings of Christ. That is why I just want to scream to anyone who will listen how fake * is!

I want my peaceful and loving religion back!!! x(

[Lilith Velkor]

51. Is Osama Bin Laden a Muslim?

Think carefully, and I trust you'll see my point. If it's unclear, I'll happily elaborate.

(Here's a hint) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

[Jo March]

66. I do see your point - but - am I a baseball player?

I wear a baseball uniform.
I have baseball equipment.
I say that I play for the Atlanta Braves.
I do not attend one game.
I don't know how to bat, catch or field a ball.
The Atlanta Braves have no clue who I am.
Am I a baseball player? Can't you just trust me when I say I am?

Who are you going to believe, me or your lying eyes?

As far as OBL being a Muslim, I do not believe that he is from what I've studied about the religion. I feel that he uses religious beliefs of others to whip people into a hate-filled frenzy.

[Lilith Velkor]

73. Apples and...baseballs?

I don't understand your analogy here. Are you saying that identifying oneself as a member of a general religious category is comparable to identifying oneself as a professional athelete working for a specific corporation?

If so, this is a definition of "Christian" with which I am unfamiliar.

[Jo March]

76. No, I'm saying that a person can say that they are anything

I can say that I am a Muslim - if you want to compare apples to apples. I don't follow any of the teachings - in fact, I do the opposite. Am I a Muslim then?

Does just saying that one is a Christian make one a Christian? That is what I am asking.

[Lilith Velkor]

133. Yes and yes

AFAIK the truth of the affiliation is for the Deity alone to determine.

[Jo March]

153. Amen

And that is the line that I do not wish to cross.

I have to criticize his actions but not his faith as I do not know what is in his heart.

spit

gag

ugh

[Lilith Velkor]

52. doubled - whee!

[Proud_Democratt]

55. He IS very typical of today's Right Wing Christian.

All talk....and a hidden evil agenda.

[ozone_man]

56. Bush is a Christian.

Not the kind that moderate Christians like to associate with, but he is mainstream Christian for certain parts of the country, the part that elected him.

I think moderate Christians would like people to emphasize Jesus' teaching instead of Paul's, but that's not what the church has done unfortunately. I think Pauline Christainity was chosen because it allowed more control by the Church. Who can possibly understand the morality of Paul but the priestcraft? Anyone can understand Jesus. Much too simple a message.

"The Christian churches were offered two things: the spirit of Jesus and the idiotic morality of Paul, and they rejected the higher inspiration... Following Paul, we have turned the goodness of love into a fiend and degraded the crowning impulse of our being into a capital sin. "
- Frank Harris

[Proud_Democratt]

57. I like your quote from Frank Harris.. I've been

saying that same thing for years!

[Proud_Democratt]

58. I just posted something very similar in "what is a Christian?"

I'm glad we're on the same team.

[Jo March]

68. And I responded to your post!

It was what prompted me to post this thread.

:D

[ozone_man]

145. No, I'm glad

we're on the same team. ;)

[Jo March]

67. That quote is interesting, to say the least!

Jesus's teachings don't allow for wealth or hatred or war or fighting or violence or ignoring the poor or prejudice or.... You get the idea.

It's a high standard that Jesus sets, one that is very hard to live up to but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't try.

Paul's teachings are a bit less centered on our hearts. Where Jesus offers grace, Paul offers laws.

My church, the United Methodist Church, emphasizes the teachings of Christ and is a Stephen Ministry. The UMC is one that was against the war before war was declared. My personal church is open to all and you can actually feel the love of Christ when you enter the door. It's quite awesome.

[Proud_Democratt]

deleted

.

[Proud_Democratt]

72. You'll find that most Christians are offended if

Paul is bad-mouthed, even though Paul(of Tarsus) wasn't even around Christ. He wasn't a disciple. His writings are no more nearer to Christ than Pat Robertson stupid predictions.

[Jo March]

77. Paul's writings, however, are oft-quoted

By some, Paul's teachings are quoted more than Christ's. I've never quite understood that.

And yes, if you question Paul's teachings, you do tend to stir up a whole pot of trouble.

[Proud_Democratt]

80. Jesus was Jewish....Paul did not approve of

Jewish ways. So Paul altered the concept of Christianity to be more accepted in Europe. He denounced the old covenant(dietary laws, circumcision, etc.).

[TallahasseeGrannie]

69. We can't throw him out of the boat

because we don't like him. We can't judge his faith. But we can evaluate his actions.

George W. Bush is a Christian and my brother in Christ.


spit

gag

grrrr

[Lilith Velkor]

75. I know it's rough

I don't appreciate him being the same nationality as I am, but I don't go around saying he's not American. Sheesh.

[Jo March]

94. I know the spirit in which you intended that

but it made me literally LOL!

[Lilith Velkor]

136. You're a mindreader?!

:wow: So that's how you know who's a Chistian!

Hell's Bells man, why dincha just say so? :P

[Jo March]

154. I am a mindreader, yes

And you should be ashamed!!! ;)

:p

[Lilith Velkor]

160. ...

:blush: :spank:

:rofl:

[Jo March]

165. And I'm not a man, baby!

I'm a gal!

:rofl:

[Lilith Velkor]

166. Well, I'm not exclusively straight

But you knew that...
;)

[Jo March]

78. Your post is correct, TG, according to the Bible

I just don't believe that he is a brother in Christ. He is my brother and my neighbor but a brother in Christ?

I can't believe that one can be a Christian and then ignore and go against every teaching that Christ ever spoke.

spit

gag

grrr

[GreenArrow]

142. George Bush says he's a Christian

doesn't make it so.

--- Matthew 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. ----

----

[TallahasseeGrannie]

148. You might be right

and I will evaluate his actions and decide not to follow him. But I cannot publically label him a non-Christian or false prophet anymore than I can label the guy in my church who left his wife and married a younger woman. If they are baptized and declare themselves Christian, then in the least common denominator sense that is what they are.

Whether they are faithful Christians is between them and God. If we start throwing stones then there won't be anybody left at all.

[Jo March]

163. Excellent post, TallahasseeGrannie

Being on the left and being a Christian, I have had many stones thrown my way. I've been labelled a bad Christian for voting for Kerry, for not supporting *, for posting on DU.

[SPKrazy]

70. Bush May Be A Christian

however he isn't a Christian that I'd like to be associated with

but if he says he is a Christian, then how do I dispute that?

is there a blood test?

can we put him under pentothal to tell? (like that's happening!)

We only have his word.

I don't have to believe him. I can say, well I don't believe that he is what he says he is.

But I have no right to say that I know for certain that he isn't a Christian

[Jo March]

79. And I feel that we should dispute it

If people look to him as an example of a Christian, should we let that stand?

If he perverts and twists religion to whip people into a hate-filled frenzy, should we not speak up and say, "That is not the way of Christ"?

I don't know. The line blurs. I cannot abide that people think that * represents the teachings of Christ, the Prince of Peace.

[SPKrazy]

98. Now, It Is Fair To Attack His Actions

His decisions, his motives.

Asking is this the kind of things a Christian does? and forcing the issue is not the same as denying him the opportunity to say he is a Christian.

His own denomination (Methodists) denounces his actions.

The man should have the chance to separate evil actions from being evil.

However, I think his religion is like everything else seems to be in his life, he could give a shit what anyone else thinks. He is surrounded by people who agree with him.

Therefore, while he may in fact be a Christian, it is not unfair to say he is a bad example of how a Christian should live, act, behave.

In other words, who would Jesus bomb, let die from lack of healthcare, let starve, let suffer?

So, his example is not a Christlike example if he continues down the road he is on, however claiming Christianity as your religion does not require behavior change to claim it.

[Jo March]

113. As an atheist, you can stare from the outside and see things

without the emotion that we do. I take my religion seriously. I take the words of Christ seriously. When I sin, I take it to heart and suffer from what I've done to myself and/or others.

When I see * and what he's done and his blatant disregard for the teachings of Christ...

It's as though he is trying to purposely do the opposite of what Christ has taught.

But if you commit evil acts, can you seperate yourself from your evil acts? Can you? How can you lift your hands one day and commit atrocities and bow your head the next in piousness?

[beam me up scottie]

118. Southpaw is a christian.

A very very cool one. :)

[Jo March]

122. Oops! I meant to reply to you!!

Sorry, Southpaw!

[beam me up scottie]

125. Oh.

I think I understand where you're coming from, but as an atheist, I can't separate my behaviour from the rest of me.

It's all BMUS, the good and the bad.

And nobody is harder on me than me.

So in that respect, we have a lot in common.

[SPKrazy]

131. But BMUS, Let Me Ask You A Question

if you do something bad, is "bad BMUS" or is it oh, it's BMUS and I did something bad.

And there doesn't have to be a spiritual dimension to that I don't think.

Albert Ellis, an atheist, and a psychologist who developed Rational Emotive Behavior Therapy really addresses the idea that we aren't our actions. Because we all do stupid shit, but does that mean we all are stupid shits? (well sometimes I am, but that's another story)

Just curious whether this has any resonance. (It's the therapist in me, not necessarily the Christian in me that is asking)

:hi:

[beam me up scottie]

134. Good question.

Really good question.

I tend to lean towards the "BMUS is bad" when I've done something really wrong.
If someone tells me I'm being too hard on myself (and my mom used to -constantly) I can usually get a little perspective and try to look at my overall behaviour.
But there are some things I can't forgive myself for.
I can only remember them and hope that the memory of what I've done will be enough to prevent me from making the same mistake in the future.

Mothers really know what they're doing when they use that whole guilt thing, don't they?

[SPKrazy]

135. Yes, Guilt Can Be The Eternal Gift

at least it can seem eternal!

:cry:

But I'm glad that you can sometimes just be BMUS and not "bad BMUS"!

:pals:

[Jo March]

152. I am struggling with something now that I can't forgive myself for

I know that I have to in order to accept God's forgiveness. He has already forgiven me but I have not forgiven myself.

I think that we can divorce ourselves from our actions but if we continue to commit atrocities, then how in the world can we be seen as Christ-like?

[SPKrazy]

130. I Vote That He's An Antichrist

but then that's just my opinion

He says he's a Christian

just not the type of Christian I want to be

and I will speak out as to what ways he isn't acting in the image or teachings of Christ as I see it.

[Jo March]

157. Pope John Paul II believed the same

that * could well be an Anti-Christ.

We do have to speak out and be specific about what he does that is not Christ-like. Sooner or later, people will wake up.

[GreenArrow]

143. " he is trying to purposely do the opposite of what Christ has

taught"

Exactly why he is not a Christian. It's a mockery of Christ.

Assuming an anti-christ, does this figure or spirit come in it's own guise? Or does it disguise itself as what it wishes to destroy? Bush calls himself a Christian and then uses that as a shield to pervert, subvert and destroy the teachings of Christ.

[Jo March]

159. Again, though, some might say that he's not trying to pervert

the teachings of Christ on purpose, that he is listening to the wrong people, that he doesn't know what he is doing. I have a hard time believing that he has no clue how he is hurting the world and the United States and the very religion he wears on his shoulders.

[GreenArrow]

167. some might believe that

and that's their choice. But what good are warnings against false prophets, tempters, and anti-christs if there are no ways of distinguishing them? Judge/know the tree by it's fruit is a pretty useful axiom. Consider the woman caught in adultery: Jesus says let he who is without sin cast the first stone. G-dub, by contrast, smirks while mocking a born again death row inmate.

There are people who join groups in order to exploit or subvert them, not because they believe in them. I believe Bush is one of those people. Not everyone who joins a church does it out of love of Christ. Strangely though, he is never willing to be corrected. He could be a simple tool, but regardless, I believe strongly that his religion is based on not on principle, but on expediency. He uses it as a front. It's lip service.

[beam me up scottie]

71. * is a pathetic excuse for a human being,

a total waste of oxygen and he needs to be scraped off the bottom of America's boot.

Oh, and he's also a christian.


To this atheist, what deity you believe in, or don't, has nothing to do with what kind of person you are.


Please don't confuse morality with christianity.


Non-christians can act morally, and christians can act immorally.

[Jo March]

82. Hi, Beam Me Up Scottie! Long time, no see!

:hi: It's been a while since I've seen any of your posts in a thread of mine. LOL, most of them got locked due to this very subject,didn't they? ;)

To me, I believe that we can't tell most of the time what is in a person's heart. Hitler? I can pretty much nail what was in his heart based on his actions. Stalin? Serial Killers? I can pretty much guess what they have in their hearts as well and it's not the teachings of Christ.

No one challenged Hitler's beliefs or his commitment to Christ. He was professing to be a Christian and killing millions on the side.

If I said, "Hitler is not a Christian" no one would bat an eye. When I say it about *, I am suddenly judgemental.

I don't confuse morality with Christianity BUT I do know that, according to the Bible, when you accept Christ, your heart changes. Being a Christian involves a change in your heart. It's not just outwardly "doing the right thing" or, in *'s case, doing all of the wrong things.

[beam me up scottie]

83. Actually, some eyes would bat at that.

Hitler could very well believe in Jesus Christ and still commit evil acts.

So can *.

If you believe that they aren't christian, then I can't argue with your belief, obviously.

However, if you state your belief as fact, I would have to point out that you cannot possibly know that they don't believe in the christian god and consider themselves christians.

I take christians at their word because I have to; I can't know if they're lying and it's not up to me to judge how "Christ-like" they are.


I guess it comes down to the difference between them believing they're christian and you believing they're christian.

Since no belief is absolutely right or wrong, people will just have to agree to disagree.


I've missed talking to you, arnheim.
I always learn something from you and I really love how you respond to each poster.:)

[Jo March]

86. You "get it" more so than many Christians

Including me, I'm thinking.

This is what I wanted to do. I wanted to be challenged and forced to think outside of the "box" (I hate that expression.)

Yes, I feel that I need to say, "* says that he is a Christian but his actions are 100% the opposite of Christ's teachings." I think that sums up how I feel about him without being judgmental of him .

We mustn't go so long between chats, dear BMUS. It's way too boring in the ol' Religion and Theology forum when we don't chat. ;)

:loveya:

[beam me up scottie]

89. You rock, arnheim.

You so totally rock.




Please come back soon.

[Jo March]

93. I sure will, you Whackjob, you!

:silly:

[kwassa]

88. but you can with me

bmus:
"If you believe that they aren't christian, then I can't argue with your belief, obviously."

Wow. What a flexible belief system you seem to have, depending on who you are talking to, and which day of the week it is.

Quite hypocritical, BMUS.

"Since no belief is absolutely right or wrong, people will just have to agree to disagree."

Do you have any consistency at all?

Or is someone else using your account?

[beam me up scottie]

91. Went right over your head, didn't it?

Here it is again, I'll replay it in slo-mo just for you, kwassa:

However, if you state your belief as fact, I would have to point out that you cannot possibly know that they don't believe in the christian god and consider themselves christians.

Do I need to muck around with html again, or did that smack you in between the eyes like it should have?

[Jo March]

95. Oh, dear. This is feeling strangely familiar...

:scared:















;)

[beam me up scottie]

104. It's okay. That's why I explained it the way I did.

Some people do claim to know who is and who isn't christian.

That's the trap you wanted to avoid, I think, because you didn't want to be judgmental.

And you weren't.

[kwassa]

99. When have I ever stated my belief as a fact?

Get a clue.

and whether or not they believe themselves a Christian has little to do with whether I believe themselves a Christian. That is my belief, right there.

[beam me up scottie]

101. Right here:

No true Christian would be a Nazi.

[kwassa]

107. That's a belief.

[beam me up scottie]

114. ROFLMAO !!!

Perhaps the "I believe" part is visible only to christians?

[kwassa]

147. Reading is fundamental

You interpreting my opinion or belief as fact is YOUR problem

[beam me up scottie]

103. And here:

I can say Hitler wasn't a Christian. It is quite easy to do.

I have lots of clues, kwassa.

You left them laying all over the place.

[kwassa]

108. Also a belief.

Keep trying.

[beam me up scottie]

116. Doesn't say that, does it?

Yes, yes, I know, I'm sure you just forgot to put that in there...

Yes, that must be it.

:rofl:

[SPKrazy]

106. Now That Is True That Your Belief Is Your Belief

and it doesn't mean your belief is fact.

It may be fact. It may not be fact.

What is the litmus test for one who calls themselves a Christian?

My Gawd, every religious faction out there has their own dogma and doctrine that differentiates themselves from other factions.

So if Hitler and Bush call themselves Christians, they may or may not be. Your belief that they aren't means exactly that, for Kwassa, Bush and Hitler are not Christians.

For Bush and Hitler, they may consider themselves Christians.

I can't tell if one is or isn't a Christian. I can only say, if they are a Christian, they act badly. The aren't acting Christ like. Who would Jesus gas? Who would Jesus bomb? etc. etc.

But I still have no way of saying for fact that they weren't/aren't Christian.

I don't think of them as Christians like I want to be or be around. I don't think that my image and beliefs about God include supporting that kind of behavior. (Bush or Hitler)

However, I just don't have a blood test, or brain scan, or any other such device to prove otherwise.

I can't prove that you are or aren't a Christian. You can't prove that I am or am not one either.

I take you at your word, and I would hope you take me at my word.

Be clear that I do not support Hitler or Bush. Nor do I think they act like Christ would want them to be acting in his name.

But I can't deny their right to call themselves Christians, for in the end, they will have to answer to the almighty.

I can challenge Bush's behaviors, actions, and ideas as not being ideas that Christ implored us to have. Same for Hitler (only much stronger)

[kwassa]

110. My litmus test, which is my belief ....

is whether or not they generally follow and emulate the teachings of Christ in their life.

It's all about walking the walk, not talking the talk.

[SPKrazy]

132. I Would Agree That We All Look At Whether The Actions

Match the rhetoric, or does the walk match the talk.

and we make judgments about that.

Okay.

That is how you form your opinion (and I form mine) but it does not state facts unless you point out what those actions are and how they don't measure up to what is said, right?

[kwassa]

146. I agree

[GreenArrow]

144. "I can't know if they're lying"

can you know if anyone is lying?

[beam me up scottie]

178. Not if it involves reading their mind.

But YMMV.

[Random_Australian]

84. If the definition of Christian = one who believes in Christ,

then Hitler was a Christian. Simple. (Or more literally we can not judge Hitler to be a non-Christian because we do not know what was in hus heart)

It does not I should like to point out, imply anything, in any way, shape or form about any other Christians with the sole exception that they also believe in Christ

The point Bmus was making about morality, if I may rather clumsily interject, was that

IF Christian = person who believes in Christ

THEN Bush is a Christian

NOT a good Christian, not a true Christian, just one the believes in Christ.

The problem with using other definitions is how subjective it is; to many a fundy YOU are not a 'good Christian' and * is.

Finally, and most importantly, when used under this definition, the adjective Christian is independent of the persons morality (Our subjective judgement of their morality).

***Disclaimer: This was not an attempt to start a flamewar; in fact, if you have problems with it, I will be more than happy to talk it over sensibly***

[Jo March]

90. Random, I am not taking this as flamebait

If I didn't want to be challenged, I wouldn't have posted this in the first place and especially not on DU, lol! ;)

Yes, if your definition of Christian is "a person who believes in Christ", then * is a Christian. But if I can't say that he is not a Christian, then I also can't say that he is a bad Christian or a true Christian or a lousy Christian.

You nailed it: "the adjective Christian is independent of the person's morality."

Can I say that he is an immoral man?? Is that judgemental? Is that acceptable and not judgemental??

I am asking seriously because I do not want to be judgemental. I do not want to do that.

[Proud_Democratt]

96. This takes us back to the ole drawing board.

Faith and works part 4????

[Jo March]

97. I'm losing track of the Faith & Works threads

No controversy there, right?

;)

[Proud_Democratt]

102. A very controversial topic....

Even in the Bible, it is confusing.
The Bible is full of contradictions....my recommendation would be rewrite the NT, only including Jesus and the disciple's writings or quotes.

[Random_Australian]

105. Oh, I see.Suggested solution:

1) When describing, leave out any mention of religion; OR
2) Judge the actions, you are more than more than entitled to question if his plans are the wisest course of action; you can even say that you do not believe he is a particularly moral Christian/person. You have to be careful.... (as we all must be at times), but talking it over like this, then drawing lines & sticking to them is probably going to be the best idea. But a good starter is "Judge the ideas not the person" - after all, it IS possible that * thinks he is doing what is best.

[Jo March]

115. Yes, there is a line that I do not want to cross

I don't want to judge others but I don't want to let anyone think that I believe for one minute *'s saintly act.

[SPKrazy]

119. I Think That One Has To

or rather can:

1) Judge the actions
2) if known, judge the ideas of that person that are expressed
3) judge the person last and least

(in that order)

Most of us are known for the actions we take, not the ideas we harbor. If I express an idea, I've taken an action in expressing it. If I keep it to myself it is harder to know what I think.

The person is judged in light of their actions, do they do good things, or do they do bad things.

This may or may not make the person a "good person" or a "bad person". It may lead us to have beliefs about whether they are a "good" or "bad" person, but all we usually will know is that they are a person who has done good works or bad works, or somewhere in between. We then form opinions about that person based on their works.

Bush:
starts illegal wars
cuts taxes for the rich
seems to support torture
spies on American citizens
has not caught Osama nor really stopped "al Queda"
etc.

I therefore can make judgments about Bush. I don't like the facts that he has taken these actions and expressed these ideas. They don't seem to be "Christ like" from my understanding. Therefore I wonder about whether he is actually a Christian. He says he is, so I can't really attack that point, but I can attack the issue of, if he is a Christian, then why doesn't he act Christlike?

Did Christ start illegal wars, cut taxes for the rich, support torture, spy on citizens of his country, catch or claim he would stop terrorists?

Nothing like that sticks out to me from the teachings of Christ.

He can be confronted on these issues.

But to say he isn't a Christian would not be right, or really defensible on the facts.

[SPKrazy]

111. Ahh, But You Can Say He Isn't Acting In A Christlike Way!

you can point out where his policies and actions do not follow the teachings of Christ.

Specificity is your ally here.

Specificity is really the only way to nail someone like * to the wall on Christian teachings and Christ's example of a life.

None of us will ever meet the measure of Christ, right? Certainly it is not wrong to say where someone falls short of the ideal.

That to me is using good judgement, and not being judgemental. I don't believe that is just semantics either because judgment is a part of our being. We learn to use our judgment to live our lives and follow our moral compass, and ethical beliefs. Judgmentalism is beyond using judgement.
It is taking it to the step of holding others in judgement without holding ourselves to the same standard.

[beam me up scottie]

120. Southpaw is right!

And I think you would really highlight the hypocrisy of * and his followers by holding them up to the same standard you use yourself, Jesus Christ.

That way, you're NOT judging them, just comparing them! :evilgrin:

Does that make any sense?

[Jo March]

121. Yes, I know that when I sin, I am not being a good Christian

I will not live up to the measure of Christ. I do try to follow His teachings and not sin.

If I didn't care about following Christ's teachings, I wouldn't be here trying to sort it all out. If I sin, I ask for forgiveness and try not to sin again. It's a rough road, trying to follow the Prince of Peace but it is one that I joyfully accepted years ago.

I watch * pervert and mock the teachings of Christ. It angers me. I am trying hard not to let it anger me and commit sins that will be on my conscience.

Being specific didn't work in the particular conversation that I had. The person whom I was discussing it with took my statement as a blanket judgement on him, his family and everyone who ever voted for or supported *. That is not the case.

Sometimes I think that it would be better if I just shut up and didn't say anything at all because I do a lousy job of explaining myself.

[beam me up scottie]

123. Not at all.

You do very well, arnheim.

I don't think you've angered anyone in this thread.

And in this forum, that's as close to a miracle as you can get. :D

[Jo March]

158. I think that it IS a miracle! :D

This forum is never, ever dull.

[SPKrazy]

129. Sometimes You Say What You Have To In Good Conscience

and then have to walk away.

People have to be open to listening to hear what you, I, or anyone says. Otherwise we are talking to a brick wall.

Don't shut up, because that just means that you are bottling up your feelings.

It's a struggle to deal with this stuff. We live in a culture that has become increasingly divided over "culture war" issues.

Part of that is because even within the Christian religions there is a wide diversity of belief about a lot of things. Whether the bible is meant to be taken literally is an issue that I can't even see how it is an issue sometimes. If the literalists took the bible literally, there would be a lot of changes in this country that just haven't happened, and I don't see as likely to happen unless they are putting stupid pills in our drinking water (they might be now that I think about it)

For Instance (you've probably seen this a 100 times, but I still love it:

1. Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21-7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanness - Lev.15: 19-24. The problem is how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

4. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev. 1-9. The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should I ask the police to do it?

6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination -- Lev. 11:10 -- it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality; I don't agree. Can you settle this? Are there 'degrees' of abomination?

7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle-room here?

8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev.19:27. How should they die?

9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev.19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? Lev. 24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair, like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws?
(Lev. 20:14)

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Aside from literalists, there are liberals and conservatives, and moderates (whatever they are?) in Christianity, and opinions on every subject known are espoused by "leaders" of different religions, and those same different religions have different ideas about how much credence to give to a "leader". Some Christian denominations believe that their congregation is the end of the line of authority and so each church within that denomination is pretty much independent of the rest.
Some churches have a sole authority and a pyramid structure of power and try to tell their congregations from the top down how to think, feel, believe, about a wide array of subjects.

So, don't give up speaking your mind. Pray about what you believe, and what you think and feel that Christ would ask you to do. Finally, there will be times when you have to walk away and either come back to fight another day, or do nothing.

[Random_Australian]

139. Shut up? No! (I am not bieng sarcastic); the way to learn is through

making mistakes - explain yourself poorly one time, be more aware the next.

Just like every other part of life - mistakes are something you will make, and the best way to learn.

[Jo March]

161. Thanks. I do explain myself poorly

It's funny that the things I feel most passionately about, I tend to not be able to explain well. If I talk about something that doesn't interest me that much, I can explain myself quite clearly.

[GreenArrow]

168. "IF Christian = person who believes in Christ...

Then Bush is a Christian".

And what if Bush is lying about believing in Christ?

[Random_Australian]

171. We are talking about judging. I should LOVE to hear it if you have some

way of telling what *, or anyone else for that matter, thinks or believes.

[beam me up scottie]

177. A Godometer?

Sounds like something Steven Colbert would come up with.

[GreenArrow]

179. that's a cop out

.

[SPKrazy]

100. I Would Bat An Eye Even At Hitler

because if Hitler claimed to be a Christian then I am not able to dispute that he wasn't.

I can say his actions did not resembler those of Christ, he was not a person trying to imitate the life of Christ in any way that I'm familiar with.

Yet if he said he was a Christian, then I cannot deny that he may have believed he was, and therefore was a Christian.

I wouldn't want to be him meeting Christ before he was tossed into the pits of hell (whatever and wherever hell is, I'm sure it is reserved for the people like him in this world)

[Proud_Democratt]

109. Back to "faith and works" isn't it?

A person may have a faith....but we are judged by our works. It seems that humans do judge by works also.
Mark Twain was an Atheist, but many people don't think about this because he was a good person that wrote good books. I never heard anyone bad-mouth Twain because of his personal disbelief. Most folks wouldn't question Twain's motives.

[SPKrazy]

112. Of Course We Are Judged By Our Works

as well it should be.

We are judged by our actions (works) not our intentions, right?

I mean I can have the best of intentions and never act, but the world isn't really going to say "oh he meant well" (only those who know and love me would say that) but he never did anything.

When looking at a Christian, one I suppose looks at what Christ said, and how this persons life is "Christ like".

Not many of us Christians (myself included) will measure up to that well. Some better than others.
Some much worse (Hitler and Bush)

[Jo March]

117. But can you judge someone by their actions?

Or is that being judgemental?

We should be judging the actions not the person who is committing the action, right?

Of course, if someone is bombing the crap out of an innocent country, it's kind of hard to say, "Well, they still really could be a great person."

[SPKrazy]

126. Whether They Are A Great Person Or Not

is a personal opinion one can form. It is human to have such opinions. I don't think that someone bombing the crap out of an innocent country is a good person.

Now, I just think that we all are judged by our actions.

Our actions speak "louder than words" as the saying goes.

I work with people who sometimes have trouble communicating their feelings to each other.

I don't tell them to insult, call names, or attack the character of the person they are having trouble with.

Instead, the approach to resolving problems is to lay out specifically what it is that the person is having a hard time dealing with about the other person.

For instance, instead of "I can't stand you!".

I can say, "I don't like it when you criticize me for not doing what you think I should be doing. I wish you would talk to me in a respectful way and tell me what you would like me to do instead."

Where am I going with this?

When we attack someone's beliefs by saying "they aren't Christian" because they don't act "like a Christian", that really has no meaning other than to the person who is saying it.

Instead, what about saying "when they bomb the crap out of an innocent country, it makes me think that they aren't acting in a way that Christ commanded us to act"

And "I wish that they would instead follow the teachings of Christ and try to help the unfortunate in our own country. Strengthen our nation first. Before they commit American lives to fight in an illegal war in a sovereign nation in the desert, they should take into account that that country had nothing to do with 9/11, or al Queda." etc.

I'm tired, and probably not saying it as well as I would like to, but the point is that I can't prove that Bush isn't a Christian, but I can confront his behaviors. And I can label those that don't fit the teachings of Christ. Then he could (like he cares) dispute that and debate the issue.

[Brentos]

74. Actions speak

I would never judge someone on whether or not they are a Christian, or whether they will be saved, etc., but I can say that he does not do the works of a Christian as defined in the Bible.

[Jo March]

92. And that is how it should be said

His actions are not Christlike in any way, shape, form or fashion.

Saying that he is not a Christian is being judgemental. I don't want to be that.

[salvorhardin]

128. Wouldn't it just be easiest and most correct

To simply say George Bush does not behave in a very Christ-like manner? Or... I have another friend who is a liberal Catholic who likes to say that George Bush is a Christian, he just happens to be a very bad Christian.

[Jo March]

162. Again, saying that someone is a bad Christian - can't that be a

way of judging? The whole point is to not judge, to not let my dislike of him and what he is doing to the world cause me to commit the sin of judgement.

Is it my place to say that he is a bad Christian?

Is it my place to say that he is the possibly the worst Christian since 1945?

[Jo March]

124. Good night and thank you

I appreciate the intelligent and honest posts in this thread. I learn a lot from DUers in this forum. that is why I came here - to be challenged and questioned and hopefully to learn.

I am off to bed now. I need to get some sleep. My head is full of things but I'm glad of that.

I have a sin to ask forgiveness for and I plan on doing so.

My mantra, "* says that he is a Christian but his actions are 100% the opposite of the teachings of Christ."

:D

[beam me up scottie]

127. Alternative mantra?

Compare, don't condemn!

That way the hypocrite stands out all on his own.

[NMMNG]

137. Bush is a Christian

But he is a very bad example of Christianity, at least according to the principles of Christianity I ascribed to when was a believer.

[bluesbassman]

138. Why do you feel the need to "point out " someone is not a Christian?

You assert that according to Biblical teachings, you are "allowed" this privilege. Where exactly does the Bible teach that? I'm not attempting to insult you arnheim, but I am curious as to what motivates people to judge whether or not someone has a personal relationship with God because of their public actions.

Sure * is publicly a jerk. He proves that just about every time he opens his mouth. And more than likely he's a jerk in private too. But are you with him 24/7, and so know whether or not he asks forgiveness for his transgressions? And what if he doesn't? Would his "sins" cause him not to be a Christian, but others sins do not? (Ask your pastor if he has confessed every single sin he has ever committed up until this very moment, and if he answers yes, start looking for a new church.)

Salvation is not something that can be graded. You have either accepted it, or you have not. If you have, no sin will take it away. And there's the rub. People confuse salvation, which is the reason for Christianity, with the Christian walk, which is different for each individual.

Actions however, can be graded, and in this area one can judge all one likes. Just consider this; what is the purpose of the judgment. Is it made to correct the inappropriate actions of the offender? Or is it designed to deflect criticism from ones religion?

[Proud_Democratt]

140. I've been thinking....a Jew is still a Jew, a Muslim is still a Muslim,

even when their actions are illegal or immoral. So I contend that a Christian is still a Christian even though THEIR actions are illegal or immoral.

[bluesbassman]

149. Sounds reasonable to me. n/t

[Jo March]

164. This still runs contrary to how I was taught

I was taught that you can't just call yourself a Christian - there has to be a transformation of the heart, an acceptance of Christ and His forgiveness.

Again, I can call myself a Jew tomorrow but that doesn't make me one.

BUT it still is NOT my place to judge whether or not that transformation has happened. Maybe it did. I don't think that it did but that's not for me to say.

[bluesbassman]

169. Your first and second statements are correct.

But you hit the nail on the head with your third. As Random_Australian might say, "by jove I think she's got it!"

[Jo March]

173. LOL!

I'm stubborn but eventually I get it. ;)

[Random_Australian]

176. By Mars, I think she's got it!

:)

When did I ever invoke Jove?

[Jo March]

180. Snort!

Too funny!!

:rofl:

[Jo March]

141. i guess the reason is because nonChristians who are considering

the faith might look at him, think that the way that he acts represents Christianity and then they'll be repulsed and turn away. I believe that Satan acts through *. I truly do.

How many people look at the fundies and how they act and say, "I'm glad I'm not a Christian"? I've read that on this board many times.

[bluesbassman]

151. Your point is well taken.

Although I think * is capable of quite enough evil on his own.

As far as others turning away from God due to the actions of *, I think you give him too much credit. People who look for God will find Him. If the actions of another cause them to turn away, perhaps they were not really seeking God in the first place.

[Jo March]

156. Or they could be looking seriously but also looking for a reason

looking for a reason not to give their hearts to Christ.

I don't want to get too deep into it but I would hate to see Satan using someone's doubt - doubt that * has created - to keep them from accepting Christ.

[Strong Atheist]

150. The problem is, when Christians say "So and so (or such and

such a group) is/are not a Christian because they do bad things, then it DIRECTLY IMPLIES that all Christians are wonderful people ONLY. Christians NEVER do bad things, by this thinking, and any one who does anything bad is not a Christian (they are an atheist, or a Jew, or a Wiccan, but not a CHRISTIAN).

This is an incredibly arrogant and insulting implication. Yes, Virginia, Christians do bad things too. They and their actions can not be disassociated from being a Christian just because you don't like what they do.

[Jo March]

155. Yes, and that is what we've been discussing

Again, it's not that Christians are trying to imply that we are wonderful people. We are just trying to make the point that *'s actions are not Christ-like in any way, shape or form.

Christ would never bomb the crap out of innocents. Christ would never pit people against each other.

We are trying desperately to make the point that *'s actions are 100% the opposite of the teachings of Christ. Many of us hold the words of Christ so dear that we cannot bear to hear them being perverted.

So, many of us say, "* is not a Christian." It's a mistake to do that. We are judging him and we shouldn't be. That was the purpose of this thread - to discuss folks (me included) who say that * is not a Christian.

I wanted to know if it was being judgemental. We all pretty much agree that it is. So, I have apologized and will not do it again.

We have to criticize his actions as being unGodly.

[Strong Atheist]

170. Ok. Peace. nt.

[Jo March]

172. Peace to you, too!

:hi: