About the antichrist...

[cynatnite]

are you for it or against it?

Got an opinion?

I asked a preacher some years ago 'what is the antichrist?'. All he said was that the antichrist is against god. I'm not sure what I was looking for in the way of an answer...something more profound, I guess, but I sure wanted more than two words on the subject.

So what are your thoughts on the subject?

[ginnyinWI]

1. I'm no longer a believer, but

Pope John Paul II at one time thought * was the anti-christ!

[Kali]

2. I don't know but when I opened the discuss page of DU

and saw the subject line right at the top, I just had to look!

Thought maybe it was going to be something about the idiot. See now this is the religion forum.

:rofl:

[Danieljay]

3. the anti-christ is here; and he appears in the form of George W. Bush.

Scary. Actually, I dont believe in an anti-christ. But Bush is the closest thing I can imagine to what the anti-christ would look and act like if there was one.

I'm not joking.

[kenny blankenship]

6. Any resemblance between them is strictly genetic--

Oops I mean "generic": as in they happen to share some random attributes; like the Antichrist has six eyes, and Bush has six eyes, and other stuff like that which doesn't really mean anything or imply a connection.

[kestrel91316]

8. Ditto here. JP II was absolutely correct, IMHO.

[Vidar]

35. No problem agreeing with you.

[libodem]

4. I'd link you

but I'm a doofus....go to bush is the antichrist. I'm not religious but this site is so satisfying emotionally that it is worth a visit. Perhaps another sweet DU'er will hook us up?

[Warpy]

5. My own feeling

and it's from a Buddhist perspective, not a Christian one, is that the Antichrist is never one person. More, it's a movement away from the basic teachings of Christ that becomes diametrically opposed to them over time.

I see this very clearly in the current loopy Calvinism infused with Rand that fundamentalist Christians are embracing. Although they groove on the whole Jesus myth, they have completely eliminated the teachings from their hearts and their lives. They have thus become Antichrist.

People who expect either the Antichrist or the Second Coming to be expressed in one individual are set up for disappointment on both counts, IMO. Both are with us all the time and both may exist within us, as well.

I hope this muddies the debate sufficiently.

[nosillies]

10. It doesn't muddy the debate...

it makes us think. I like!

[papau]

7. "antichrist" is Only in John and means teacher, false prophet or

corrupter of the Christian faith. The end times concept comes from John's "last hour" in "Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour."(1 John 2:18, ESV)



from Wiki:

The words "Antichrist" and "Antichrists" appear only five times in the Bible - in two of the Apostle John's three letters in the New Testament, 1 John and 2 John:

Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son.

(1 John 2:22, ESV)

Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour.

(1 John 2:18, ESV)

and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already.

(1 John 4:3, ESV)

Many deceivers have gone out into the world; they do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist.

(2 John 1:7, ESV.)

In these contexts, "Antichrist" seems to describe any false teacher, false prophet or corrupter of the Christian faith, but sometimes also seems to indicate a specific person or single spirit of deception that motivates false teaching and whose presence is a sign of the end times. However, in popular understanding, many Christians identify this particular Antichrist with the "man of sin" or "son of perdition" mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 2, and with several figures in the Book of Revelation including the Dragon, the Beast, the False Prophet, and the Whore of Babylon. The Antichrist is variously understood to be a group or organization, such as a consummately evil system of government or a false religion, or more commonly as an individual, such as an evil government leader, a religious leader who sets up false worship in place of the worship of Christ, the incarnation of Satan, a son of Satan, or a human being under the dominion of Satan.

===========================================

Matthew 24 warns of "false Christs" in several places, and of deceivers who would appear claiming falsely to be the returned Christ. (Matt. 24:5,24:24)

For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

-Matthew 24:24



Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I say unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

-Matthew 7:15-23

[TexasProgresive]

9. There have been many antichrists

since Jesus. John is likely referring to Nero in Revelations and there have been many since then. I would postulate Torquemada, Hitler and Stalin for starters. Anyone who has great power and uses it against the people of the Church is an antichrist.

Now whether there will be an arch antichrist that will usher in the end of the world as we know it - well no one really knows.

[greyl]

11. I'm all for it, I suppose, in the right context.

Some bits excerpted from Daniel Quinn's "The Story of B" which I'm very fond of:

All serious commentators on the subject agree that Antichrist is just the latest name for an ancient figure in the religious legends of our culture - far more ancient than the Christ to which this name makes him opposed. In other words, he doesn't just represent the antithesis of Jesus. All our salvationist religions have feared the appearance of one who would lead the righteous from the paths of salvation. The Antichrist isn't just the antithesis of Jesus, he's equally the antithesis of Buddha, of Elijah, of Moses, of Muhammad, of Nanak, of Joseph Smith, of Maharaj Ji - of all saviors and purveyors of salvation in the world. He is in fact the Anti-Savior.

Accompanying the legend of the Antichrist has been the bizarre and almost laughable notion that his massive global appeal will be his unbridled wickedness. This shows what a low opinion salavationist religions have of their members. This is how they despise us that they think we yearn for evil and vileness and corruption and will slavishly follow anyone who promises these things.

When they say to you "B is the Antichrist," here's what you should say to them. Say to them, "Yes, you're right - absolutely right. B means to steal the hearts of the people away from you so that the world may live. B means to gather the voices of humans all over the planet into one voice singing, 'The world must live, the world must live! We are only one species among billions. The gods don't love us any more than they love spiders or bears or whales or water lilies. The world of the Great Forgetting has ended and all its lies and delusions have been dispelled. Now we remember who we are. Our kin are not cherubim, seraphim, thrones, principalities and powers. Our kin are mayflies, lemurs, snakes, eagles and badgers. The blinding we suffered in the Great Forgetting has abated, so we no longer imagine that Man was ill-made. We no longer imagine that the gods botched their work when it came to us. . . . We no longer believe that suffering is the lot the gods had in mind for us. We can no longer believe that death is sweet release to our true destiny. We no longer yearn for the nothingness of nirvana. We no longer dream of wearing crowns of gold in the royal court of heaven."
Say to them "You're right to see that we're straying from the path of salvation. We're straying from the path exactly as you always feared we might. But listen, we're not straying from the path of salvation for the love of vice and wickedness as you contemptuously imagined we might. We're straying from the path of salvation for the love of the world, as you never once dreamed in a thousand years of dreaming.

[Evoman]

12. This is what I don't get with the antichrist

If the anti-christ knows who he is, they why would he even bother? I mean, he probably believes in Satan. If he believes in Satan, he must believe in god. If he believes in the christian god, then he must know that he will lose the war.

Why bother starting a war your going to lose?

Not to mention, why would god allow such a bad person to be born? Of course, then that gets you into the argument about Evil God. I mean, why would a good god require that the end of humanity occur in a orgy of blood and violence. And why not just have that judgement in a peaceful, calm way. Oh well.

The question is moot because the christian god doesn't exist.

On edit:

I was just thinking something. Lets say that the anti-christ will exist or does exist. Basically, what is supposed to happen is that people will fall for his lies and start worshipping and following him. Heres the thing though:

I am a skeptic. Actually, most atheists I have come across have been skeptics. Just look at the Leopold thing...many of the atheists here were skeptical about that story. I am skeptical about all leaders....in fact, I have sort of a hatred for authority. Even when I vote for someone here in Canada, I can't get myself fully behind that person. Part of me is skeptical of anybody that WANTS to be in power, particularly people that have charisma.

So in a world of believers, the skeptics are the LEAST likely to accept or worship or follow a leader without criticism.

So if the antichrist did come back, wouldn't it be likely that a majority of atheists would be against that person ESPECIALLY if he proclaimed that he was christian or god-sent?

[EricWhitaker]

13. too deep

my head is about to explode after reading that lol.

[Igel]

15. How's this?

The antichrist doesn't necessarily know that that's what he is; it's what believers call him, not what he calls himself. From their God's point of view, he's fighting God and what Jesus actually stood for. Perhaps he's substituted his own version of Jesus for what Jesus really was, as determined by their Jesus. This is one usual argument: he's supporting a false version of Jesus or God, and this has usually been used in battles between sects. Christian Gnostics, Muhammed, Bogomils, Catholic Church, whatever. Huge variety of theist and deist targets to choose from.

This is the other way it's taken: Anybody placing the authority of the government (king, some institution, whatever) in place of Jesus' authority is anti-christ. The USSR got the name for a while; China crops up sometimes.

So the anti-christ could be somebody fooling everybody simply by saying, Trust yourselves ... and listen to me.

Gets you going around in circles after a while, that does, because it means the only way to avoid it is to listen unquestioningly to a leader. But what if ...?

[Danieljay]

19. Good point. That being said, Bush started a war he couldn't win..

eh?

[zonmoy]

32. You were more on track to the truth with the idea of an evil god.

[SPKrazy]

14. What Do You Mean "For It", or "Against It"

I think your preacher answered it for you

if you are talking about something fashioned like the "Omen"

well, who knows

It's not what I think

I think GWB is an anti-christ since he professes to be a believer, but enacts leadership that is IMO largely against the teachings of Christ (making the rich richer, and the poor, poorer, invading a sovereign nation, torture)

If there is a devil that created GWB as "the Antichrist", then he must be a) severely stupid as he picked GWB; b) severely disappointed to have picked GWB


In all seriousness, I don't believe in "the Antichrist", but rather believe that there are a lot of "antichrists" that have existed.

Nero, Hitler, Stalin, Mao, and others who may have acted in the name of Christ but enacted "evil" policies

[cynatnite]

16. Maybe it's an evil boogyman made up to scare the hell...

out of believers.

I've always been humored by those who attempt to label a person like this. That somehow they'll rule the world and wind up destroying it.

It seems highly unlikely. When I was thinking about this today, I remembered the times when the bible was written. The center of the world was Rome and the men who wrote the bible saw Rome as evil...which is where the bible says the antichrist will come from.

Thinking of it in a historical context, it's more likely someone in that day could only see anything evil as coming from Rome.

I do agree that most evangelical types will look for an 'omen' type character and attempt to fit certain traits into the vague descriptions of the bible.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

18. Works for me

in a scary sort of way.

I do think there are people of incredible evil walking the earth. I don't know enough about anyone's heart and soul to name names, however.

[zonmoy]

33. or could it be possible that this idea was created by god to ensure

conflict between religious points of view since each sect would consider the others to be of the antichrist or whatever their main religious villain was.

[SPKrazy]

36. I Think It Was Written About Rome

and the belief that the end of the world was coming soon

trying to stretch it out to mean modern times has always seemed to border on, well, no border about it, insanity

[TallahasseeGrannie]

17. Am I for or against the Antichrist?

Well, that one's easy. I'm against him/her.

I've long held, however, that it was Barney and I think the threat has passed.

[SPKrazy]

20. No, Grannie, Barney Lives!

and thank God we have spared our child from the hell of Barney!

He's 6 and has never been a Barney fan, I'm not sure he's ever seen him.

(We've made sure that we kept him out of our lives as well as we could, and I think we've succeeded as Barney is a little less exciting to a 6 year old than a 4 year old)

[TallahasseeGrannie]

22. My grandchildren

do not know the existence of the Evil Purple One and they never shall!

Some things are just too awful for words.

[SPKrazy]

24. Protect Them Well

and they may never know the evil one!

[cynatnite]

23. I won't believe until I see Barney's dead carcus

:evilgrin:

[SPKrazy]

26. self delete

[SPKrazy]

27. Try Again- The Evil One Is Here

[NMMNG]

30. So I'm not the only one who abhorred Barney?

So many people thought Barney was fabulous. IMO he was annoying and taught kids to be obnoxious. Maybe he was the antichrist. :rofl:

[SPKrazy]

38. He Was An Antichrist!

well maybe not

but then again....

[AnnieBW]

21. Don't Believe in the Anti-Christ

Frankly, I don't believe in all of the Revelations nonsense. The "anti-Christ" that the Apostle John was referring to was the Emperor Nero, who sacked Judea to fund his "Golden Palace". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nero. Face it, the "End Times" aren't gonna happen. If they do happen, and all of the Fundies get Raptured, I get dibs on one of Jerry Falwell's Mercedes Benzes!

[SPKrazy]

25. I'm Suspecting, That If There Were A Rapture

Jerry Falwell ain't goin' nowhere
nor is Pat Robertson

or any of these fundy crazies who preach the gospel of the antichrist (IMO)

[papau]

28. I agree - John is easy to understand - and Revelation should not be

part of the Bible - in my opinion.

[charlie]

29. Oh yeah

It always cheers me to hear a believer say that. If ever there was a Rorschach test for bent souls to validate their worst impulses, that book is it. The apocalyptic crowd has gotten waaay out of hand and if it takes dropping Revelations from the canon (next to impossible, I know), it needs to be done, like yesterday.

[bluesbassman]

34. Good luck on that!

But you're right. Next to Leviticus, Revelations is the most "fundamentally" abused book in the Bible.

[SPKrazy]

37. Abused, Yes; Literary Work, Yes

Revelation of John is an amazing book really

probably written in a code that people who read him would understand, he wrote with vivid images.

The end is a message of hope for humanity, and the enemies of the (early)Church, the Roman Empire of course.

Those who try to make it more than it is I think are something like fortune tellers.

[saltpoint]

31. When Bush & PNAC want Middle Eastern oil, Saddam is the Anti-Christ.

I see it as a psychological construct to demonize someone in order to advance the opposing authority.

If there is an Anti-Christ, and/or a Devil, then the holy originals of the Church must be followed and obeyed, as they are the intermediary between earthly struggles and doubts on one hand and heavenly reward and afterlife on the other.

I'm including the Protestants in that scenario, even if they came along a little later in history.

Flip Wilson's Geraldine, a preacher's wife, told her husband, "The Devil made me buy this dress!" When he expresses displeasure at that explanation, Geraldine tells him that if it weren't for the Devil, her preacher husband wouldn't even have a job.

I consider the Anti-Christ an abstract entity, useful for framing the debate about who sits at the control panel.