How do Atheists view marriage: Religious rite or civil right?

[ecstatic]

Poll question: How do Atheists view marriage: Religious rite or civil right?

http://atheism.about.com/od/gaymarriage/a/MarriageCivil.htm

Several flamewars in GD regarding gay marriage, so I decided to do some reading and came across the above article.

It raised some curiosities.

I've always viewed marriage as some sort of religious ceremony that bonded two people together, afterall, most weddings take place in a church and with a Priest.

So I was wondering, how do atheists view marriage? It seems as if our government has kind of crossed the boundaries between church and state with all the benefits that are given to married couples.

[Jokerman]

1. As a married Atheist:

I don't really know if marriage is a civil right but any government recognition of hetero relationships should be offered equally to gays.


BTW we were married by a judge in a completely non-religious ceremony.

[eShirl]

2. A wedding is a religious rite (ceremony),

and a marriage is a civil, legal ... uh, thingy. I know of people who have both and people who have just the first.

[ecstatic]

3. I think that says it all!

Good way of putting it.

[Jokerman]

4. Not sure if I agree with that.

I don't claim to be an expert on the origin or meaning of the word but we referred to our civil ceremony as a Wedding and there was nothing religious about it.

[TechBear_Seattle]

12. You have it backwards

State and federal laws all reference "marriage", not "wedding." Weddings are the ceremony, often times religious and almost always optional, that marks the beginning of a marriage.

[Jokerman]

16. How do I "have it backwards"?

We had a big party that we called a Wedding. At one point in the evening a judge muttered a few words and pronounced us married.

There was a wedding dress, a wedding cake and wedding presents, just no mention of anything supernatural.

[TechBear_Seattle]

19. You are right; I am in error

I'm not sure what I saw the first time around, but it makes perfect sense now. Yes, a wedding is the ceremony, regardless of whether it is religious, civil or something else. :hi:

[TechBear_Seattle]

11. Weddings don't have to be religious anything

I have officiated at nearly 30 civil, entirely non-religious weddings over the last few years. That there were no prayers, passages of holy writ or mention of deity does not make them something other than weddings. :hi:

[jobycom]

5. I don't know that I could explain how I view it. Certainly not religious

I think today's version of marriage is two-fold. It's a civil arrangement to recognize a couple or family unit and give them certain economic advantages and disadvantages, often with the purpose of helping a family raise children. But it's much more than that for most couples. It is a spiritual committment between two people, to recognize a bond between them that can't really be defined by government or religion, or anything or anyone other than themelves. When government or religion tries to force itself into that bond, it harms marriage, and it has overstepped its bounds. That's what's happening now--religion and the federal government and too many state governments are trying to tell people how they must view the most personal and private commitment they can ever make.

It's the churches that marriage needs defending from. Marriage is beyond religion, beyond church, beyond government, and unless someone willingly makes churches or governments or religion or any other construct a part of their marriage, they have no business being involved. And if government believes it has a role in giving benefits to married people, it should acknowledge that it has no role in determining who should or shouldn't get married. Government cannot create a real marriage, so it should get out of the business of forbidding them.

[sinkingfeeling]

6. You know, only states can issue marriage licenses...a church must

see evidence of that license before performing the 'rite' of marriage and then the church can issue a marriage certificate. My answer to those who oppose same sex marriages because of their religious beliefs, is for them to tell it to their church. The constitutions of most states have 'equal rights' sections and I say all states should be required to issue marriage licenses to everyone...including same sex couples. If the churches don't want to play, they don't have to.

Edited because I'm half asleep.

[stillcool]

7. believe...

that is such a finite word. I sure don't believe today, what I did a few years ago. Marriage...there are lots of people I've known who had a church wedding, but never graced the building again. My mom was a methodist, and my dad a catholic, and their wedding was a big no-no, civil service on the qt. In the 60's I couldn't belong to the girl scouts because they had their meetings at a Presbyterian church. I myself, do not partake in any service in a church.

[Finder]

8. Marriage is a legal partnership...Matrimony is religious

IMO. Each religion has its own rules for what they call matrimony which is outside the legal realm. For example, a married couple can divorce and each can join in another partnership legally, however, some churches require an annulment in order to remarry.(in that church)

[TechBear_Seattle]

13. Not quite true

"Matrimony" is the estate of being married. As such, it does carry legal significance and thus, by definition, is a civil term. The word is also used by many religious groups to mean that a couple has gone through a religious ceremony, so it also has a religious connotation.

It is correct to say that "matrimony" can be used in either a civil context referencing legal marriage or in a religious context meaning "has gone through a wedding ritual." It is not correct to say that "matrimony" exclusively belongs in one or the other context.

[Finder]

14. Holy Matrimony is a sacrament in the Catholic church...

and does not depend on legalities of the state in cases of civil marriage. My only point was that marriage was a civil rather than religious union.

[TechBear_Seattle]

15. HOLY matrimony, yes; matrimony in general, no

When a word is defined by civil statute, it has a civil (ie non-religious) context. Many states define "matrimony" by statute. Therefore, the word "matrimony" has a civil context. As I posted above, that does not preclude the word from having other, non-civil contexts. It does, however, make your blanket statement about matrimony being exclusively a religious concept incorrect.

[Finder]

25. Let's parse a bit...The word matrimony is based on the latin word for mother...

Matrimony, Patrimony, Alimony are all common law terms.

The suffix -mony is defined as a result of an action or condition.

Matri=mother, Patri=father(also used to indicate property)

Gender specific terms have no place in our constitutional law. Their place in Family law has been reworded to alimony and child support without gender specification.

[Evoman]

9. I think marriage is silly.

I wouldn't take my view as mainstream atheism, however. I'm not one for traditions...I have this need to analyze things that people take for granted, and most traditions just don't make sense to me. A part of the problem is that I don't think its necessary to do things just because they've "always been done". Lol...some people have called me hyper-rational for this reason.

Marriage to me is meaningless...yeah yeah its symbolic, whatever. Who cares. I'm not against it, I'm just indifferent to it. Its not like anything really changes afterwards...I mean, other than making it harder to leave if you have a problem with your spouse, what does marriage really change? Its like running in a field with your lover...your having fun in that great open field, feeling the freedom, smelling the flowers, etc. And then you look around and say...man..you know what would make this better..lets handcuff ourselves together and throw the keys in the grass.

The same goes for funerals..I hate them. I prefer to mourn on my own terms, and don't feel a need to go to some ceremony. I also hate graduation ceremonies, especially of the high school variety...I sit at the things, listen to some psuedo-philosopher yap about "paths" and "goals", and wait for the damn things to be over.

BUT, and this is a big but, I participate in these ceremonies regardless. To some extent, if you don't want to be miserable, you HAVE to. I feel nothing for thanksgiving or Christmas, but I enjoy spending the time with my family. I hate weddings, but I love the parties. I hate funerals, but I want to comfort my family. I will even get married some day...not because I care about marriage or some dumb symbolic bond....but because I love my girlfriend and don't want her to be unhappy. If she needs me to say words I am indifferent about, in order to be with her the rest of my days, then I will do it.

On edit: Lol..how about answering your question. How do I view it...religious or civil? Both. To me, their is no difference between civil unions and marriage...the end result is the same. Marriage has never REALLY been about a covenant with god...its always been more about property and passing assets than anything. People add meaning to it...some religious, some spiritual, some symbolic. If it was purely religious, then you wouldn't have tax benefits for it. If it was simply civil, like getting drivers license, people would do it for the benefits, and wouldn't care about who they were marrying.

[ecstatic]

28. good points

Does your girlfriend know how you feel about marriage?????!! Have you popped the question yet??

[Evoman]

29. Yeah she knows how I feel...

I know that she thinks its kind of weird how "rational" I am, but she doesn't seem to mind. It actually benefits her, and she uses me as her "rational" sounding board when she has problems. In fact, she lurks on DU and knows my name, so I wouldn't be suprised if she reads this very post. I have nothing to hide.

Have I popped the question yet? No...I'm in grad school, and I'm poor as hell. If I did propose, it would be like in a cartoon, where I put an onion ring around her finger (if I could afford onion rings, lol).

[hunter]

31. The civil contract is VERY VERY important, even if you don't have children.

If I die before my wife, or if I get sick and can't communicate, then she's in charge -- not my parents, and not my siblings or other relatives. That's the way I want it to be.

That's just one reason same-sex marriage is so very important, especially if parents or other relatives are hostile towards the same-sex relationship.

Gay couples I know are keenly aware that they don't have the legal protections of marriage. They can't simply go down to the courthouse and get married to protect themselves. If they have relatives who are hostile towards their relationship they must surround themselves with friends and lawyers who will defend their interests should anything bad happen.

[Evoman]

33. Very good points, hunter.

I wouldn't argue with any of your post.

[beam me up scottie]

34. One of my coworkers asked me why gay people would want to get married anyway.

I asked him why he wanted to get married when he proposed to his wife.

He had the common sense and grace to say "Good point."

They're learning.


hi hunter :hi:

[TechBear_Seattle]

10. How anyone views it is irrelevant

In the United States, marriage is and always has been a CIVIL institution, not a religious one; anything else would be a gross violation of the First Amendment separation of church and state. The filing of proper CIVIL, SECULAR paperwork with the appropriate CIVIL authorities is what makes for a legal marriage; the theater of a religious ceremony is entirely irrelevant.

Wishful thinking or desperate fantasies will do nothing to change that fact.

[cosmik debris]

17. Atheists are not a homogeneous group

But I see marriage as a contract between two people and several governments. Try getting a divorce and you will see what I mean.

[Random_Australian]

18. Atheist meself, say it is a secular thing,(by the fact that, y'know,

countries all over the world have it whether or not they give a stuff about religion),

and in fact I dream of getting married someday. :loveya::loveya:

Edit: And bieng far from selfish, I say let gay people marry as well! Spread the love, people! :loveya::loveya:

[TheBaldyMan]

20. do you mean right or rite ?

marriage is a legal contract entered into by a couple. It is a purely civil legal matter and has NOTHING to do with religion. Religious ministers have a dispensation awarded by the courts to perform the legal ceremony. A purely religious ceremony has no legal status if you don't sign the marriage contract as well. IOW you aren't married unless the civil marriage is incorporated in the religious ceremony as well.

[silverweb]

21. No room for agnostics?

:shrug:

[neebob]

22. I think of it as totally secular,

despite my Mormon upbringing. I realize a lot of people get married for religious reasons.

To me it's just a good way to find out that the old saying about the grass is really true. It's a racket, a way to stick people together and suck them into the machine.

The world would be a much better place without it, in my opinion. However, as long as it exists, I support everyone's right to get sucked into the machine and find out about the grass.

I see the so-called marriage protection amendments as a way not just to exclude same-sex couples but also to create a special, privileged class of people. It has the potential to develop into a situation where, eventually, everyone who's not married is excluded. And that's why I don't think civil unions are an acceptable compromise for same-sex couples.

[NMMNG]

23. Marriage is a civil right

It doesn't matter how much hemming and hawing you do about marriage being a "sacred institution blessed by XYZ deity", the fact is you still have to get a marriage license from the state you live in to be considered legally married. You can have 100 church ceremonies but if you don't have that state marriage license you are not legally married, and you aren't eligible for the legal benefits that "marriage" provides. There are also millions of couples who have gotten married without benefit of a religious figure (including my mom--all three times).

[Finder]

24. I am not sure if I would call it a "right"...

since it requires a license. Driving, running a business, marriage are more privileges--in legal terms.

Of course this gets into the muck of debate on what is a right.

[NMMNG]

27. Good point

But I was answering according to the question posed. I probably should have said that marriage is a civil matter.

I do find it interesting that so many things (marriage, driving, hunting) require a license while having and raising a child do not. But that's a matter for an entirely seperate thread. :-)

[TechBear_Seattle]

35. The United States Supreme Court begs to differ

Marriage is one of the "basic civil rights of man," fundamental to our very existence and survival.

From the ruling on Loving v. Virginia, 388 U.S. 1 (1967)

[cyborg_jim]

26. I am not convinced governments should get involved at all

[bryant69]

30. Civil Unions for all, Marriages for those who want them.

That's my solution - Marriage is obviously a religious ceremony because that's the way everybody looks at it, and the Government shouldn't be ministering a religious ceremony. No matter how bland you make it, it's still essentially the Christian Marriage that we are talking about. So no marriages for anybody, heterosexual, homosexual or whatever. Civil Unions should be fixed to handle the legal advantages of marriage and available to all.

Or that's my idea.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[Zhade]

32. It existed before religion; should religion end, it will remain.

Civil, with many religions 'blessing' it, in a nutshell.