If The NFL Locks Out The Players, Whose Side Are You On?

[Yavin4]

Understand this, in this dispute, the owners want the players to give back money and to extend the season by 2 games. It's not the players asking to make more money. This dispute is purely a power grab by the owners to take money back from labor.

The hack, unintelligent sports media will play this as greedy players striking against the fans during a bad economy. They will run with the owners meme over and over again, and it's up to us to make sure that the reporting on this dispute is accurate and fair.

NFL players literally destroy their bodies to play the game, and they're among the lowest paid of all big time professional athletes.

[TZ]

1. Millionaires vs. Billionaires.

Hare to really sympathize with either side. Michael Vick, Ben Rothlesburger Albert "lying money grubbing" Haynesworth, and other really despicable types don't make the players particularly sympathetic for me. Do I think they will be more in the right than the owners? Yes. but sorry if there is a lockout I'm not shedding tears for either side.

[joeybee12]

3. I know what you mean...i'd side with the players but

I ain't gonna lose sleep over their plight.

[trotsky]

4. There was a fan sign - I think it was at a baseball game once...

as a strike was looming. It was the absolute perfect statement:

OWNERS GET THE MINE
PLAYERS GET THE GOLD
FANS GET THE SHAFT

[a kennedy]

22. OMG this just says it all.....

:cry: :mad: :grr:

[JonLP24]

5. How about Demarcus Ware?

He and his family had three failed pregnancies and a birth and death of a son. They went to adoption and want to become foster parents. They also want to have a biological kid of their own.

Those players make the news but you rarely hear about the good ones. There are really some great people in the NFL as well as other professional leagues. You just don't hear about them.

[TZ]

9. Of course there are good people

But come on, these are not auto workers who are about to lose everything they have when their plant shuts down. These guys are very very priveledged..even if the game they've chosen to play has some downsides. Maybe I'll feel bad for the rookies who won't get paid, but I'm not going to bother to feel sorry for people who think they need an extra 25 million to feed their family. Many of them are also red conservative republicans as well who most likely hate Unions outside of their own.

[JonLP24]

10. You said

those guys make it hard to care and I tried to introduce someone I thought was pretty good.

How much money they have or don't have wasn't something I was trying to do. I will say "an extra 25 million" is usually not a union complaint if it is at all. They usually deal with things like guaranteeing pensions, minimum salaries for rookies and veterans, collective bargaining agreements and general things like you can't cut a player who is currently injured. Owners(not all) will and do take advantage of players any chance they can so I don't have a problem with them at all challenging them and making sure things are fair.

[TZ]

18. Sure they need to have some fairness in their contract

But the irony is that many of these players who want their Union to help them, also donate money to Republican candidates who actively work to break Unions (look at one of those donation lists sometime- 90% atheletes donate Republican..Even so called "democrat" Fred Smoot admitted that players want to protect their money so vote that way...Sorry, so not only are many of them egotistical jerks, even the 'well behaved ones" (Peyton Manning) are hypocritical asses..

[trumad]

28. Prove that...

Prove that the majority of NFL players---which are African American by the way, donate to Republicans.

You're full of shit.

[LisaM]

24. They are not all millionaires

There are plenty of people who earn the league minimum and who have a career of just a few years. Everyone always judges the players by those at the top making the most money. But they don't all get that much.

[Auggie]

2. I side with players

and am against extending the season. In fact, I'd like to eliminate two pre-season games -- most coaches say they're unnecessary -- and finish the season two weeks earlier.

[JonLP24]

6. The players of course

And they are among the lowest paid compared to other professional sports. I hate the idea of 18 game season when things are fine the way they are. I

[Iggo]

7. Neither.

Owners are billionaires.
Payers have a union.
Get busy.

[El Supremo]

8. Right, I'm on the fans' side. n/m

[fishwax]

11. I side with the players

:kick:

[michreject]

12. Owners

They want a rookie cap similar to the NBA. Bradford is going to get 65 million without ever playing a down. Money need to go to the proven players. Rookie hold outs suck.

[DaveinMD]

15. that's the most minor of issues

and most players agree with them on that. They want to reduce the overall cap and take back money from the players.

[JonLP24]

16. Compared to NFL veterans

1st round picks work out as great deals most of the time. You go through any first round year and you see pro bowlers. Sometimes they don't work out but veterans don't work out too.

Are Rookies Overpaid?

<snip>

A 2005 research paper called The Loser's Curse by economists Cade Massey and Richard Thaler tackled that question. In a nutshell, the paper compares rookie pay to the pay of a 6th-year veteran who could be expected to deliver the same performance as a rookie from each slot in the draft. (Performance is defined by a mix of measures including: being on a team roster, starts, and Pro Bowls.)

The conclusion of the paper is that team executives and scouts overpay for the top picks in the draft relative to the later picks, likely due to overconfidence in their ability to identify the best players. But what might surprise some readers is that rookies at every level of the draft are bargains compared to equivalently performing veterans.

This graph from the paper is the study's bottom line. The red 'compensation' line is the average annual pay for each draft pick. The blue 'performance' line is the salary a team would have to pay a 6-year veteran free agent for the same expected performance. The green 'surplus' line is the difference between the two pay levels.




The surplus performance peaks shallowly at the bottom of the first round and through the second round. That's where teams get the biggest bang for the buck. But still, the surplus is strongly positive throughout the entire draft. According to Massey and Thaler, rookies are a bargain compared to veterans.

http://www.advancednflstats.com/2009/04/are-rookies-overpaid.html

[Upton]

13. Neither for me too

We know about the owners...and those poor players:

The average NFL player salary for the year 2009 was around US $770,000. The average base salary of an NFL player in 2009 was around US $990,000. The average NFL player signing bonus salary for all players in 2009 was approximately US $1.3 million.

http://www.buzzle.com/articles/nfl-player-salaries.html

Money looks pretty good to me, as does an 18 game schedule...if the players don't like it, let them work in the REAL world.

[JonLP24]

17. If you watch and go to game

It is relative to what to the owners will be making who they will be making a lot more off of fans without playing a snap. If you have a problem with the money they make don't watch or go to the games. Same thing with actors and actresses who make tons of money as well and deservedly so because they have an audience that rents or buys a dvd. As well as go to see them in the movies. The same thing applies to music and what have hobbies people have.

[trotsky]

19. Well, they also end up with the brain structure of a 90 year old Alzheimer's patient...

by the time they are 40. I wouldn't subject myself to that kind of punishment for any amount of money.

[Upton]

21. High risk high reward...

if the players aren't happy with their millions, they are free to do something else. Last I looked, nobody was forcing them to play football.

[LisaM]

25. But that is very top weighted

because there is a lot of discrepancy in salary. It's more realistic to look at the league minimum.

[Angleae]

27. Which would be $325,000 for a rookie.

$400,000 for 1 year experience
$475,000 for 2 years experience
$550,000 for 3 years experience
$635,000 for 4-6 years experience
$760,000 for 7-9 years experience
$860,000 for 10+ years experience

and all these figures go up each year.

[JTG of the PRB]

14. Neither. They all make more money than I ever will. Why would I want to watch them squabble over it?

I want to watch them play football, not haggle over dollar signs. If they lock out, it'll be a while before I watch another NFL game.

Same goes for the NBA.

[Forkboy]

20. The NHL's.

[LisaM]

23. Of course I'm on the side of the players

seems like a non-question to me.

Yes, players at the top in all sports make a lot, too much, but remember how it was before players' unions?

There's something about salaries that just brings out greedy behavior, anyway. I go around and around on this with a friend of mine. She makes very good money, but it's always bugged her when someone she works with makes slightly more than she does. I always try to tell her that this is why people like PayRod never feel that they are making enough. They compare themselves to their peers at work.

[nickinSTL]

32. that's really pathetic

I don't know how much I make in comparison to my coworkers - and I don't care.

I care whether what I make is fair and enough for me to be comfortable with.

As to the question...

I'd have to say I'd be on the side of the players, as it seems the owners are out to make themselves richer and they seem to be reluctant to recognize the kinds of problems players face in life after football from all the physical punishment they take.

Not too sympathetic to a 22-year-old making something like $13 million a year, though.

[DinahMoeHum]

26. I'm with the players. Football is the one pro sport where

I do not begrudge the players going for as much money as they can.

It's been said that the average career for a pro football player is only 3-1/2 seasons.

Unlike other pro sports, football players live on the edge of a precipice on every single play, never sure if the next play they're involved in will be their last (in terms of injuries).

It's also been said that 4 out of 5 players will have some sort of permanent disability years down the road after their pro careers have ended.

And it's also been said that the average lifespan of a pro football player is about ten years shorter than American males in general; ie., Jack Tatum, dead at age 61 (the average lifespan for men is supposedly 70).

[trumad]

29. I'm with the players big time

and the dumb asses up above who side with the owners are nothing more than fake Progressives who suck from the corporate tit....

[Yavin4]

30. Hear! Hear! Trumad!

I don't understand progressives who get mad when labor is fairly compensated. That's what we're all fighting for. We all want our labor to be compensated well in relation to how much we produce.

For the owners to be asking for givebacks when the NFL has never ever been more profitable should shock, alarm, and rally true progressives.

If the owners can rip off their players like this AND get SUPPORT from the public, then how on earth do you think that they will compensate their other employees.

I always want labor to win no matter what.

[trumad]

31. Yep

Nobody seems to bitch when major movie stars like Clooney, Pitt and Leo get millions for what they do.

Why do they make Millions? Because they make a profit on their body of work.

NFL owners make great profit and without the players they would not.

It's that fucking simple.

[fishwax]

33. I'm not a fan of Dennis Miller, but one thing he said when he was on MNF has stuck with me

It was during the preseason--iirc, it was the Hall of Fame game, which I suppose would have been his first game in the booth. Anyway, he talked about the experience of going to the Hall of Fame induction ceremony that weekend and seeing all these Hall of Famers who were there for the ceremony, and being shocked by how many of them were walking with limps or with canes even at relatively young ages, these giant heroes of his youth whose bodies were cracking and crumbling like ancient statues of the gods or something. And he realized then, as he hadn't before, how much these guys sacrificed to play the game.

I don't begrudge them for getting what they can either.

[trumad]

34. Here's a piece written today by Dave Hyde of the Sun-Snetinel.

Several Miami Dolphin players in their forties have died in the last decade---heart attacks, etc.

The game takes a brutal amount of health from these players.

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/miami-dolphins/fl-hyde-dolphins-mortality-0803-20100802,0,2818992.column

[KamaAina]

35. I am ALWAYS on the side of the workers in a lockout.

I am usually, though not always, on the side of the workers in a strike -- but a lockout is another matter entirely. There is never a valid excuse for a lockout.

[RT Atlanta]

36. Pro-basketball & Pro-Baseball

Seriously... if "they" want to throw away a season, let them - and enjoy all of the known as well as unintended consequences that come with it.

[Hayabusa]

37. The "I want to watch ****ing football!" side, of course