New article on raising teacher pay...

[YvonneCa]

... http://www.politicsdaily.com/2009/06/05/new-school-hopes-six-figure-teacher-salaries-pave-way-to-success/

The comments are also interesting.

[jody]

1. Two questions given that every second of a school day is already used. First, what new topics will

be taught and what replaced?

Second, what new teaching techniques will be used and which will be replaced?

I support increasing salaries for those who actually teach students but just hiring a few new teachers or increasing salaries of existing teachers without other systemic changes is no guarantee that quality of graduates will improve.

[YvonneCa]

2. Every second of a school day is already...

...triple- booked, at the very least. :7 So, given that, teachers should have had higher salaries years ago. As to systemic change, you have company...this is from the blog at Duncan's edgov site:

http://www.edgovblogs.org/duncan/2009/05/secretary-arne-duncan-takes-listening-tour-online-invites-comments-on-raising-standards/

Educators posted many ideas for systemic change. But, after listening to Duncan speak at the National Press Club, it sounds to me like he already has his mind made up about the changes he will make:


http://www.press.org/video/player.cfm?type=lunch&id=18024


BTW, this was my post:

Yvonne
Posted May 16, 2009 at 12:29 am | Permalink
Secretary Duncan,

Thank you for your listening tour. As a recently retired teacher, I really hope you are successful in rebuilding our public schools. I have given a lot of thought, during my career, about what it would take to better educate our kids and make schools work better. Here in California we have had very high standards for some time…and while they are important, I want to be sure you know it will take much more than just ‘fine-tuning’ standards to make education right.

So, what follows are my thoughts about what you should REALLY consider, if you truly plan to make our public schools the envy of the world (which would be my goal).

Number One: Publicly apologize to teachers for scapegoating them in recent years. You need them on your side (and they aren’t right now). In 2001, under the Bush Administration’s Education Secretary, Rod Paige, teachers (unions, specifically) were called terrorist organizations. For the last eight years, NCLB has done nothing but blame public school problems on ineffective teachers (probably because they prefer vouchers). There has been almost NO recognition for eight years of the job teachers do. The general public has NO IDEA what the job entails and our leaders have worked to make that WORSE for eight years. A better start would be a HUGE and LOUD apology to the teachers of this nation who have dedicated their lives to teaching kids. Most with little support, either financial or in respect.

Number Two: And then ask teachers what they think, and make THAT public. What a difference that would bring! Much of the public and many politicians (who rightfully want to improve public schools) have no real idea of what is wrong with them. So they try ‘canned solutions’…like merit pay…most of which are the wrong thing to do. JMHO. Merit pay is divisive…just like NCLB was. That doesn’t mean it can’t be a tool for improvement if done in the right way, but it HAS to be done fairly. Example: NCLB has good things in it, but it became bogged down because it used AYP to pit schools and districts and teachers against each other..instead of helping us to work together toward a goal we all share: Improving education for kids. I think ANY workable solution will require input and support from teachers…not just unions…teachers. In all the talk of fixing public education and schools…which I wholeheartedly support…the idea of involving teachers in this process is never brought up by anyone in a position of authority. I’m glad to hear they may ‘rename’ NCLB and start to include a ‘progress’ measure for accountability…but talk about putting lipstick on the proverbial pig.

Number Three: My reform ideas, with the underlying prerequisite that teachers MUST be involved in designing a program in order for it to be successful…

1. For teachers, stop demeaning them and start treating them professionally. Create career paths for them. Very few exist now, because teaching used to be a ‘traditional woman’s job.’

2. Integrate curriculum. Learning makes more sense to kids when connections to other knowledge can be made. We have lost that in the era of NCLB. And we can still keep standards to meet…just not in isolation.

3. Create multiple pathways/goals for students’ graduation…all of them rigorous. Have it kick in at about age 10 or so…be flexible until age 12 (to be sure the child has made a good personal choice)…and then be the student’s committed choice after that. Some kids may choose science/math, others may go into writing/journalism, others to a third choice. It’s important to design these pathways well…for areas students will need to work in in the future. When they finish, they are job-ready or college ready…but THEY have some buy-in to their future goal (not just their teacher or their parents).

4. Ungraded schools at the elementary level. As some have said here, mastery of concepts should be required to move on. It’s WAY more complicated than that…but clearly passing kids from grade to grade does not work.

5. Find ways to involve parents in their child’s education…ie. Student Led Conferences, Curriculum Fair, technology, etc. The list is endless.

6. Testing for accountability shoud be streamlined. Under NCLB, the testing has become all-consuming. It leaves little time to teach.

If the only test given was for NCLB…once a year…I’d cheer. But, in my county, tests are given three times a year…in reading, math and writing…to be sure state standards are met…in addition to NCLB. We start the school year…we test. We get to Christmas…we test. We return in the spring…we do test prep and test NCLB. After NCLB, at the end of the year…we test again. That’s what I mean. And anyone who has taught knows you don’t just test one day…you have all the hassle because kids are absent/makeups, etc. And then there’s the focus on scoring.

Teacher energy needs to be on the kids and teaching.

7. Use data fairly. Measure growth.

Example: At the start of a new school year, student A reads at 4th grade level. By year’s end, student A reads at 6th grade level. That’s two years of growth, and it is easily tested. Let’s say student A is in a 4th grade classroom. The teacher does well, both on growth…and currently on NCLB. That’s because NCLB wanted that student to read at 5th grade level by the end of the year…target met.

Now, take student B. At the start of the school year, student B reads at 4th grade level. By year’s end, student B reads at 6th grade level. Again, that’s two years of growth and it’s easily tested. But student B is in a 6th grade classroom. The teacher has done well on growth…two years. But the teacher is ‘iffy’ on NCLB, because the target is 7th grade level (ready for middle school).

And then, take student C. At the start of the school year, student C reads at 4th grade level. By year’s end, student C reads at 5th grade level. That’s one year growth, and it’s easily tested. But student C is also in a 6th grade classroom. The teacher has done okay on growth (one year for one year of instruction) by the student can’t meet the NCLB target of 7th grade. That teacher is PUNISHED by NCLB.

That is the part that is unfair. And many excellent, dedicated teachers in underperforming schools are being targetted because of it.

Another example:

Let’s say there are four second grade teachers. Every one of them produces an average of 1 to 3 years growth in their class of students. But they are very different as teachers…one complains about *certain* students placed in their class every year, another teaches ‘GATE’ students (and they get averaged into the total class improvement), another regularly takes kids the others don’t want because of a belief that you work with students as they come to you, etc.

Thanks to the current focus on ‘data’ and ‘results’ (which does have a place) at the end of the year, these four teachers get a number (data) showing average growth of their class. IMO, data is important, but it is ONE measure of each teacher. Remember, ALL these teachers added value. ALL these teachers are good teachers. But administrators…under great pressure as ‘at-will’ employees…see this data. Some (really bad ones) make the data public by handing it out at staff meetings. This pits one teacher against another when we should all be working toward the same goal.

Data is a tool…but only ONE tool. Anyone who has taken a class in statistics will tell you you can twist data to make a case for anything. That’s what has changed under NCLB…successful teachers who help their students grow are NOT rewarded, they are punished because sometimes even 3-4 years growth is still below standard.

Thanks for listening! And good luck to you, Secretary Duncan…I KNOW our country can do better.

[jody]

4. Thanks and good luck. n/t

[Smarmie Doofus]

9. I'd move Number 6 to Number 1.

>>>>6. Testing for accountability shoud be streamlined. Under NCLB, the testing has become all-consuming. It leaves little time to teach.

If the only test given was for NCLB…once a year…I’d cheer. But, in my county, tests are given three times a year…in reading, math and writing…to be sure state standards are met…in addition to NCLB. We start the school year…we test. We get to Christmas…we test. We return in the spring…we do test prep and test NCLB. After NCLB, at the end of the year…we test again. That’s what I mean. And anyone who has taught knows you don’t just test one day…you have all the hassle because kids are absent/makeups, etc. And then there’s the focus on scoring.

Teacher energy needs to be on the kids and teaching.>>>>>>



I'd elaborate on this suggestion but I have more data to collect.



Other than that.... you've achieved near perfection.


>>>>And good luck to you, Secretary Duncan…I KNOW our country can do better.>>>>

Indeed we can. But it looks like we won't.

[YvonneCa]

17. I agree that #6 is critically...

...important. Thank you for your kind words. I am still very hopeful. Our country CAN do better and we must. I think teachers' voices need to get louder...and be persistent. (And that is difficult, because we all work so hard and are SO exhausted at the end of a day. :) )

Secretary Duncan may not be 'the one' to fix this...but TEACHERS are the ones. :patriot:

[jody]

12. My comment was re the OP link 2nd paragraph, "additional performance-based bonuses".

I've listened to governors, state education board members, and state education department leaders promise ad nauseam "Give us more more money and we'll increase the quality of graduates".

For several years I've written them asking the same two questions and their answers are always, "Just trust us, we know what we are doing."

What a crock!

I don't oppose increasing the education budget but I do oppose using an increase for anything that does not directly benefit the student, i.e. education quality, or teachers who teach.

What I've seen is budget increases spent to hire public relations advisers to tell the public what a wonderful job a superintendent is doing or using funds for senior education administrators to attend seminars where they will learn the latest techniques.

[YvonneCa]

15. "Merit pay". That's what they are talking about, and...

it is a very divisive issue. Most teachers I know are very much against it for two reasons...1) there are difficulties in measuring 'merit' and 2) it puts teachers in a competitive, rather than cooperative, job environment. I addressed this issue in a previous post:

On the teacher merit pay issue...Wow. I'm sure I am biased on this one...teacher here. :7 My thoughts are numerous, but I'll start with this one...it's long past time to actually HAVE this debate, no matter which side you come down on. I think you encapsulized the situation completely with your question:

"Certainly, there are teachers who should not be there, but, for the vast majority of them, how do you differentiate who is the best teacher or not?"

That is the big question. And I worry that much of the public and many politicians (who rightfully want to improve public schools) have no real idea of what is wrong with them. So they try 'canned solutions'...like merit pay...most of which are the wrong thing to do. JMHO. Merit pay is divisive...just like NCLB was. That doesn't mean it can't be a tool for improvement if done in the right way, but it HAS to be done fairly.

Example: NCLB has good things in it, but it became bogged down because it used AYP to pit schools and districts and teachers against each other..instead of helping us to work together toward a goal we all share: Improving education for kids. I think ANY workable solution will require input and support from teachers...not just unions...teachers. Lately, teachers have become the scapegoat for ALL that is wrong in public schools. Personally, I can no longer tolerate that.

I also believe NCLB also put great pressure on administrators to meet AYP goals. I think it's important not to paint ALL administrators with a broad brush, either, because there are MANY good administrators who do their best to work cooperatively with teachers to educate children in their districts. But there is a conflict...most administrators are 'at-will' employees, which means they would lose their job if goals were not met, which means they do what they have to to reach AYP. In some cases, as I have witnessed, they resort to harassing teachers to make this happen.

I am an educator. So are most administrators. We HAVE to work together to fix our system. THAT'S why I feel so strongly that teachers...not just unions...have to be heard. I also think GOOD administrators should be involved.


It is CRITICALLY important that we fix public education. We, as a country, have talked about it the whole time I have been a teacher...but we haven't done the right things. Politics always gets in the way.

THIS TIME, I want Obama to do it right. If all he does is 'fix teachers', he will...sadly...learn what teachers already know: WE are not the #1 problem. And we will have wasted more time and more money and we still won't be educating our kids for THEIR future. THAT is no longer acceptable...at least not to me.

I voted for President Obama. I think he is a smart man, and the person we need now to lead. I want him to make good decisions for our country. On education, I believe he can only do that with ALL the information out there...and that includes the point of view and experience of TEACHERS. I, too, have great hopes for what he may be able to accomplish. My hope comes from knowing he is intelligent enough to understand problems we face and find solutions, seeing that he has great empathy for all people (even those who don't agree with him), and observing that he is willing to learn from what has gone before (both in politics and policy) and builds a strong foundation for the things he proposes.

Had we elected McCain, I'd be very afraid. :scared:

[Dinger]

19. That's Quite A Letter Yvonne, WOW!!

Hope he reads it. I don't think I could write one like that, but maybe soon I will. You inspire me.

[YvonneCa]

22. Awww, THANK YOU, Dinger ! You inspire...

...me, and many other educators here, too. :grouphug: I hope you will write a letter, too. It is important that we teachers speak up...and NOW is the best time.

You are a GREAT writer...I have confidence in you. ;)

[YvonneCa]

16. Technology is another answer to your question...

...making sure ALL schools and children have access to technology in support of their learning.

Technology in public schools is critical to making schools better. The ability of technology to explain/teach concepts from a new and different angle...is critical to helping some kids understand a concept. It IS a great time-saving tool for teachers, and does allow for parents/families to get involved in their child's education. AND...it IS the future. Use of technology will be the standard for the jobs to which our kids aspire. They MUST be up-to-date on its use.

The good news is that the technology to do that already exists, is being used in many districts, and is improving all the time.

However:

1. It's not available everywhere now...and it should be.

2. Teachers MUST have some flexibility about it's used in their school/classroom...it should not be dictated in ways that do not work. I say that following my personal experience with such programs where a # student hours and the process was dictated to teachers by administration who did not comprehend the actual impact on classroom of the policy. That doesn't mean I think administrators shouldn't promote/require use of technology...they should. Just HEAR TEACHERS.

3. Policy to protect students when online are paramount. Most districts know this and take steps to keep their students safe.

[LWolf]

3. "comfortable schedule" and "job security" my ass.

"People everywhere" who think the above obviously haven't ever looked closely at the schedule. As for job security, how many teachers have been riffed around the nation this spring, and how more of those are there, let alone new teachers looking for a job, than there will be job openings in September?

We're already underpaid, and schools are always understaffed, more so now with the budget cuts.

While I'd love to be paid more, I know that there is simply no one-size-fits-all solution to underperforming students.

Why does no one ever actually ask teachers what the greatest factors contributing to failure, or success, are?

The comments seem to cover all ends of the spectrum, when it comes to education wars.

[jody]

5. My experience is college not K-12. I know that difficult majors have better students simply

because weaker students are filtered out.

Because K-12 teachers have to take all comers, I admire them for their dedication.

Add to students of limited ability, parents of limited ability and a local culture that may not encourage education so teachers have an almost impossible task.

Then local and state government refuse to adequately fund education because students do poorly on state/national tests and I wonder why any sane person would teach K-12?

I know many teachers and they are completely sane so the answer must be an unimaginable love for students.

:thumbsup: to K-12 teachers for attempting the impossible.

[LWolf]

6. Thanks for recognizing some of the obstacles.

:hi:

[Sabriel]

7. OK, I'm reeeeeally tired of that perception.

Many teacher ed programs, my own included, require a 3.0 for graduation. Other majors do not.

People need to let go of the "Those who can..." bullshit. Many, many smart people go into education.

[jody]

10. Mea culpa for my poor writing. I was talking about K-12 teachers having to take all, not college

education programs.

I stated college programs had a student body that had been filtered.

I'm sorry that you read my post as condemning college education programs that I believe are excellent and students are excellent.

Please forgive me, :pals:

ON EDIT ADD:
My late wife taught, my mother taught, my daughter in law teaches, and my very close friends include several dozen teachers and former teachers.
I believe those teachers represent the teaching community and TEACHERS :yourock:

[Sabriel]

13. Mea culpa for jumping on you

I hear it even from other departments and instructors, so I'm a little tetchy!
Thanks.

[YvonneCa]

8. I KNEW I could count on the teachers in this forum...

...to set the record straight on that. :7

It always is amazing to me how many misperceptions there are about the job of teaching. It's clear when someone says that, they have never worked in a school. As to asking teachers what they think, it seems Arne is asking (at the Edgov link)...but I don't know that he's listening. Hearing and listening are two different things. The educators that are responding online are telling him he needs to do something different...but, in his speech, he's just spouting the same old stuff. JMHO.

[jody]

11. Does anyone listen to teachers who actually teach? n/t

[YvonneCa]

18. Not yet...

...:7

[LWolf]

14. Asking as a piece of propaganda,

when you don't really care what the responses are, isn't authentic "asking," is it?

We've heard a lot about how everyone who thinks we ought to wage war to achieve empire ought to be signing up themselves.

I'd love to see everyone who thinks they are an expert about what "we" need to do about schools spend a year in a public school classroom.

[YvonneCa]

20. No, it isn't authentic, and that is why the answers...

...and solutions dumped on public schools are so often wrong. IMO. The ONLY difference I see now...with the Obama Administration... is that I think they DO really care. Maybe that's just wishful thinking on my part, but I think they want to get it right, for the right reasons...to better educate the next generation. And I don't think they like privatization, in general, like the last administration did.

I also think most politicians don't know the answers to fix things...they have to rely on the experts, which is GOOD, so long as they listen to ALL the experts. That includes the people in the trenches...teachers.

Bush mismanaged foreign policy because he only listened to his own 'experts'. They didn't have all the facts, as so he went down the wrong road. (Maybe the road they wanted to go down anyway.) It has been a disaster, to put it mildly.

Taking a similar path on education will also have disastrous results.IMO. And it's all about RESULTS, right? :7

[Dinger]

21. Here's My "Comfortable" Summer Schedule:

And it's a typical one too.

June 10th, last day for teachers (contracted day that is)
June 11th: Go see President Obama in Green Bay (O.K., this part isn't typical)
June 12th-14th: Prepare for summer school class. I have a sub coming in for the first week, since I'm taking a graduate class that first week (June 15th), and I have
lots of work to do for her. I have been preparing for weeks, but I am also in the process of end-of-year record keeping.
June 15-19th: Grad class (in Mohican history & curriculum)
June 22-July 17th: Teaching remainder of my summer school class
July 20-Aug. 2nd: Try to catch up at home, and begin to prepare for fall.
Aug. 3-7th: Grad class (technology in the classroom)
Aug 9th-Day 1 of fall classes: Get ready, get ready, get ready!

P.S. The only time I am paid is for summer school, and none of this schedule after June 10th is under contract.

[YvonneCa]

23. That is an excellent example of the typical...

...teacher schedule. Last summer was the first summer for me that wasn't like that. (I retired last year.) There were always classes to be taken for the district, or to renew my credential, every year. I actually believe that's important to do...it's just totally unrecognized outside the education world.

Maybe some of us should start a thread posting such details of our teaching lives. :7

[Dinger]

27. I Think It's Important Too

I hope it didn't sound like a complaint. I guess I posted it just to show what a normal summer schedule is like for me.

[YvonneCa]

29. No, it didn't sound like you were complaining...

...at all. It sounded like a shared reality. I wish there was a way to impart that reality to the general public, many of whom think teachers only have responsibilities during regular school hours...more or less 8:00 to 3:15, Monday through Friday.

They don't get the weekend and evenings spent on papers, grades and report cards...the meetings and trainings we're required to attend...the time spent with parents in conference or on the telephone...extra time tutoring or counseling students...etc. Not to mention that we are continually students ourselves.

I think that, unfortunately, distorts any dialogue about the role of teachers in public schools.

[LWolf]

24. And taking courses to maintain, or to advance,

a teaching license not only costs time, usually during the summer, but MONEY as well.

I am hoping to teach summer school this year to make up for some of the pay cut we all took. Of course, so is everyone else who took a cut, and very few kids actually qualify for summer school here. Some of the special ed teachers will take those spots.

I'm spending some time grading state writing exams. I'm attending some trainings. I'm restructuring curriculum for 6 different classes to try to make it work in only 147 instructional days next year; more budget cuts.

Then I'll come in 2 weeks before my contract begins to get the room set up, the plans done, etc., because when I am called back we'll be in meetings the whole time and there will be no time to actually set up the room physically or anything else.

I'll be paid for scoring state writing exams; nothing else.

[jody]

25. Understand "taking courses to maintain, or to advance" but does "publish or perish" do the same for

college faculty who want tenure usually at the seven year point and for promotion?

[LWolf]

26. I think so. nt

[YvonneCa]

30. I am no expert on education at that level, but...

...the whole point of 'publishing' seems to be to validate the worth (through knowledge) of the faculty member who must do so. At my level, the current credential supposedly does the same...it says I have completed work in areas X,Y and Z and therefore am qualified to teach.

In today's environment, where people question what has gone wrong in education and are desperate for answers, both criteria are under scrutiny. At my level, it's not enough to have the credential, you also have to continually update that knowledge (which is good. You must regularly be evaluated by administration...also good. You may have to pass additional tests and certifications to prove your level of knowledge. You now must also prove (through test scores) that your teaching is working for your students...questionable, IMHO.

The effect of 'publish or perish' at the college level? My suspicion would be that maybe it causes the focus of the teacher to move away from teaching/curriculum and toward proving that he/she has the desired result on students. Just a guess. :)

[Wednesdays]

28. K&R

:kick:

[sheila f]

31. People always use the excuse that teachers don't work a full year...

My mom was a teacher and I saw her grading papers at night. No respect for this most important of professions...

[proud2BlibKansan]

32. Welcome to DU, sheila

:hi:

[YvonneCa]

33. She's gone. n/t

[proud2BlibKansan]

34. LOL saw that

Hope it wasn't anything I said.

[YvonneCa]

35. ...

...:)

[YvonneCa]

36. Kicking this, in honor of...

...today's NEA action. :7 It's about time!