I need biblical references/resources to help a gay fundamentalist who thinks he's going to hell.

[qb]

Can anyone help? It's my cousin's neighbor. Thanks.

[tekisui]

1. Tell him to put down the Bible.

You can't argue logic and reason through biblical quotes. It is full of contradictions and antiquated thinking.

[sui generis]

12. ding ding this is the correct answer

If you want to be philosopher, ask him to answer how can love be wrong? He belongs here like every blade of grass, every star, and raindrop and if there is a key to the kingdom it is to be who you are, and love as you will.

If there is a path to hell it is to be something you are not, and to be afraid to love or worse, to hate yourself for loving someone because of peer pressure or society or accepting some crazy preacher's interpretation of life and love above what your own heart says.

follow your heart, you can't go wrong.

[Deep13]

13. There is no hell and the Bible is full of shit.

That's pretty clear on page 1.

[Ian David]

2. He needs to switch to a different church that says he's NOT going to Hell.

Even if you convince him (for now) that he is not going to Hell, then if he stays within the same cult, they will eventually un-do your repairs.

I suggest United Church of Christ or The Unitarians.

If that's not an option, then try googling the name of his congregation with the phrase "welcoming and affirming."

[Irishonly]

10. Second you advise

Also have him read, 'The Bible" by Karen Armstrong. She has been on Moyers and has some eye opening advise about the fundamentalist's view in this country. She believes the Bible is written for long ago times and it was never meant to be taken as word of law in today's society. My pastor has done extensive research on the history of Leviticus and she is absolutely in favor of gay marriage. I trust her and there are more rational pastors in the country.

[polichick]

3. I'd try to help him see that the Bible was written in a certain time and place...

...and the early church picked and chose gospels that worked best for them, leaving out many others.

[Midlodemocrat]

There is no condemnation of homosexuality by Jesus anywhere

in the New Testament. As for the Old? Well, the New Testament is a new covenant between God and his people.

[mitchtv]

4. I'd stick with the sermon on the mount

If he's not Kosher, he shouldn't be worrying about the OT.

[Deep13]

15. ...and ignore the rest of the NT.

So why did the council of Nicea staple that huge OT to all the Jesus stuff if it doesn't matter? And what about the homophobic and misogynistic rantings of Paul which actually predate the gospels?

And how will the meek inherit the Earth if they never stand up and take it? And if someone hits me in the head, then his intentions are pretty clear. Assuming that first punch did not knock me out, why shouldn't I hit him back? Isn't declining to do so just a surrender to the bullies of the world? And since when does decline to judge others shield a person from the judgment of others? So, yeah, maybe he out to skip that part too. And sure, love one another. Who can object to that? But love others as much as oneself? Maybe if I'm willing to starve to death. As it is, humans are no so constituted to love others to such a degree that it equals ones own survival instinct. This is one of those impossible standards of behavior one is bound to fail. And love god with all ones heart and mind? What an ego maniac! Again, that is not possible for a human animal.

[mitchtv]

18. fine, add the Apostles' Creed

and you're covered

[La Lioness Priyanka]

5. not really. leviticus states its an abomination. if you want to live by that admonition

there is really not much to do.

i dont think its stated anywhere that one goes to hell for it, just that it is an abomination

on the other hand, jesus says nada about homosexuality. if it were that imp, he would say something

[Warpy]

7. Leviticus is the dictates of the priests

not the word of the OT god. That was given to Moses and homosexuality wasn't important enough to make it into the ten commandments.

Again, if it had been that important, it would have been there.

[Creideiki]

27. If he's tied up in Leviticus

Ask him if he would force a virgin girl to marry her rapist?

Leviticus is really best read for grins and giggles--as in, "What the Hell were they thinking?"

[Veruca Salt]

30. Some good ones here:

http://www.slate.com/id/2145574/entry/2145575/

And the article is fun reading as well. :)

[Warpy]

6. Gently remind him that neither god nor Jesus ever condemned homosexuals

In the OT, the priests did it. In the NT, it's Paul, a man who never met Jesus.

Ask him if he thinks a god who despises gays would have created them just for the fun of condemning them. (well, maybe that OT god, but not the NT one)

Then tell him there are better churches out there, churches that will accept him just the way he is.

[Deep13]

22. Well, you might get away with that, and it might be a good idea...

to encourage a more realistic reading of the Bible. You know, a product of barbaric times and we know better now. The Bible being just plain wrong may be too great of a jump for this person right now.

But I have to ask to what extent any of the Bible is believable or authoritative if one is willing to ignore huge amounts of it. I dispute that OT law can be disregarded. If that were true, there would be no OT law in the Christian Bible. And JC says in Matt. that he came to fulfill the Law, not to eliminate it and further says that fulfillment, whatever that means, will not happen until the end of the world. There are 613 commandments in the OT and the Ten Commandments are just a few of them chosen apparently because they include blasphemy, murder, theft and adultery. All of them are unequivocal directives punishable by death.

I agree that the canonical gospels do not mention homosexuality one way or the other. I just don't see that fact as especially significant. The Epistles are the foundation of Christianity and the NT. Most of the actual theology of the NT is in the Epistles and the writings of Paul are the oldest documents in the Christian religion. They contain no details of JC's life or death, no miracles (unless one includes Paul's epileptic seizure and hallucination) and no quotations of JC. In fact, Paul seems to have been a follower of the son-of-god-in-heaven cult. This is a Jewish heresy where god creates a son in heaven who intervenes on behalf of humanity, but who was never a person. The gospels were written decades later and contradict each other. They may be a good read, but I would not rely on them for what JC did or said.

[Warpy]

24. You're talking to an atheist who meditates

You know, a bad Buddhist. However, I have read the bible cover to cover, begats and all.

The Jesus in the four Gospels talked about what was important, knowing his time was limited. Homosexuality was simply not that important. Divorce and remarriage for women were important to him. Homosexuality--and abortion--simply were not.

Cafeteria Christians already ignore much of what the priests said about dietary laws and things like stoning children who got too sassy. Obviously the edicts of the priests already have less import than the actual words of god recorded there, and god was mum on the subject of homosexuality, especially when he was issuing commandments.

You're correct in that the Gospels are a poor record of what Jesus said because they weren't taking dictation. They were relying on memories of what was important enough to be included as formal teaching, hence the contradictions.

However, you can be sure if Jesus had mentioned homosexuality, at least one of the four would have been enough of a phobe to remember it and write it down.

[Deep13]

26. As you say, it wasn't important.

My in-between period going from literalist fundy to nonbeliever was as a liberal believer who hid behind the "judge not" to avoid reaching an opinion about the morality of homosexuality. I figured if it was a sin, it was no worse than the ones Christians apparently commit every day.

The whole idea of sexual orientation being part of ones personal identity is pretty recent. The fact that references in Leviticus and the whole turning Sodom to salt thing focused only on male homosexuality seems to play into the ancient idea that women were not actually sexual beings, but were just kind of there to receive the "seed." Male circumcision is a ritual in part to take a boy from the world of women and into the sexual world of men. The dietary laws have been specifically overruled. I can't remember where I read it, perhaps in Romans, but at some point Paul explains that what one eats really isn't important. Of that was necessary for him to take his message to the non-Jewish residents of the empire. Of course JC himself apparently overrode the draconian sabbath rules. I know you know all this stuff, I'm just writing for the hell of it and because I'm procrastinating on a serious project.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

8. Check out soulforce.org

They have a great phamplet on the Bible written by Rev. Mel White.

[SacredCow]

29. Seconded.

Great website.

[rateyes]

9. FWIW

http://www.gobinumc.org/persons_of_sacred_worth.htm

Your friend's problem is not his homosexuality, it's his fundamentalism. There are many resources that deal with the fallacy of fundamentalist Christianity.

There are MANY, MANY Christians who reject (and, on biblical grounds, I might add) the notion of "hell." Fundy Christians turn their "god" into a pretty sick bastard with their notions of heaven, hell, and how to avoid the latter and get to the former.

Your friend has been indoctrinated in a bunch of religious bullshit.

[tuvor]

11. I found this book to be very helpful.

What the Bible Really Says About Homosexuality by Daniel A. Helminiak

http://www.amazon.com/What-Bible-Really-About-Homosexuality/dp/188636009X/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1239212757&sr=8-4

[Occam Bandage]

14. Well, the first problem is the "fundamentalist" part. But that aside...

Fundamentalist Christianity is entirely and completely incompatible with homosexuality (or civilization, for that matter). I could give a number of NT verses of the "Jesus says things are gonna be okay" variety accepted by mainstream Christianity, but those are counterbalanced by his larger number of "Jesus says the old law still binds you" verses. So let's take a look at what else that old law says, aside from the ban on male-male homosexuality.

-You must kill your children if they are "stubborn and rebellious." Deuteronomy 21:18
-Neighboring tribes must be hated and shunned for ten generations. Deuteronomy 23:1
-If your family converts to another religion apart from Judaism, they must be murdered. If a nearby town converts away from Judaism, you must practice genocide against them. Deuteronomy 13:6-18
-You may not plant two kinds of seed in a field, may not plow with two types of animal, may not wear clothes with two types of fiber, and must have tassels on each corner of each cloak. Deuteronomy 22: 9-12
-Adultery is punishable by murder. If you marry a woman and find she is not a virgin, you may murder her. If a woman is raped and does not scream for help, she may be murdered as well. Deuteronomy 22:13-25
-Slavery is acceptable. Hebrew slaves may only be bought for six-year terms. A female slave who isn't much fun in bed may only be resold to her father. If a man buys a female slave, he must continue to have sex with her as long as he owns her, even if he marries later. If a man beats his slave, and the slave survives a day before dying, then the man should not be punished, for a slave is property. Exodus 21:1-21
-If a man beats a woman and induces a miscarriage, that is only a punishable by a fine as the woman's husband demands. (I wonder, then, why Christians oppose abortion?) Exodus 21:22
-If you go to war, and take prisoners, kill all of them. But if you see a woman you like in the prisoners, you may capture her for your own. Deuteronomy 21:10
-You may not cut your hair on the sides of your head, or shave your face. Leviticus 19:27
-You may not eat shellfish, pigs, owls, etc.

Now the last one is interesting. I'd direct you to Acts 10, in which Peter is presented by God with a vision of a great feast of things which the old law finds abominable. God tells him to eat these. Peter says, "Surely not, Lord, I have never eaten anything impure or unclean." And God replies, "Do not call anything impure that God has made clean." They repeat this three times, then the vision ends.

This is important because as Peter was wondering about the meaning of this vision, a Roman man named Cornelius came. In Jewish law, foreigners (as well as homosexuals) were considered unclean. But Peter tells him, "God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean."

I think that's important.

[kestrel91316]

16. If he's a biblical literalist, tell him he's going to the same place us

shrimp eaters and cotton/poly wearers and companion-planting gardeners are. Because they are ALL abominations according to Leviticus.

[antigone382]

17. Here's a good one

http://www.ccjp.org/homosexualityandthebible.php

:)

I am no longer a Christian, but I don't see the point in telling a Christian gay person that he must give up his religion and whatever that means to them in order to accept himself. If at some point he chooses no longer to be a Christian, then that is up to him. The important thing is to open the door to new perspectives in the first place (particularly perspectives that encourage him to see himself, exactly as he is, as a loved and necessary component of the world).

http://www.ccjp.org/homosexualityandthebible.php

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

19. Have him read ALL of Leviticus and ALL of Corinthians

the two places in the Bible fundies cite when they go on their anti-gay tirades. But if you read the entire thing, you get the bits in context--yeah, homosexual acts are "an abomination" but then so is eating shellfish, etc. etc. And in Corinthians, Paul is railing against prostitution more than homosexuality.

[sinkingfeeling]

20. While I don't have the Biblical quotes, here's a guy who does. Bishop John Shelby Spong.

He's written a good dozen books. Here are 3 that you should get your friend to read:

Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism
Sins of Scripture
Living in Sin?

[qb]

21. Thank you all. He's young & lives with his fundy mother so it will be tough until he moves out.

[Occulus]

25. And when he does, the 'damn'- pun intended- will break

I think he should be aware of that as well.

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Veruca Salt]

28. The problem is that the bible was written by men.

And thus it is fallible.

It has been passed down to believers as the word of god, but how can it be so if written by men? Why did they have a Council of Nicaea to decide doctrine?

I think this is the fundamental thing to ask your neighbor. Religion is a very very hard thing to break and it can break people very easily, especially when you're gay and grow up in a religion that says your going to hell for the way you are. Luckily, there are many sects of christianity that are gay friendly your neighbor can research: http://www.gaychurch.org/Find_a_Church/united_states/united_states.htm

This may just be a path to enlightenment for him if he chooses to take it.

[donheld]

31. Here's one of the best

http://www.cathedralofhope.com/NetCommunity/Page.aspx?&pid=225&srcid=305