If a boy or man wants to act or dress effeminately, is that wrong?

[closeupready]

How do you react when you see a male acting effeminately? Do you find that disturbing? And if so, why? How about when a female behaves effeminately?

What about when a woman acts or dresses masculinely? How does that effect you?

I'm asking because in another thread about the random gay murders in Baghdad, some of these clerics were quoted as saying, 'it is wrong for a man to be like a woman, and he must be killed'. But it seems to me, we in the US also believe that it is wrong for a man to be like a woman, given how much discrimination and hatred effeminate men face.

[pnwmom]

1. I don't think it's wrong, and I doubt many progressives here do. n/t

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

4. Oh man, then I guess you missed the threads when the butch lesbian

didn't want to wear a dress to graduation.

[pnwmom]

10. And people here had a problem with that? Geez. n/t

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

14. A huge problem -- the threads were epic

And, I got called homophobic for saying the girl was obviously a butch lesbian or really a transgendered guy.

Guess what? I was proven right on that when the post-graduation articles came out.

[Creideiki]

100. The problem there is thinking that DU is particularly progressive

It's not. Some day Skinner will get around to renaming the site center-right underground.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

2. I have no problems with gender variance

Others around here seem to have major issues with it.

[closeupready]

3. Right! Gender variance. That's the term.

Thanks.

Or gender nonconformity.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

9. Right, either term works

[MissMillie]

5. I call it

"life's rich pageant"

I have to admit, I would worry a little about my own son acting that way, not because it's "wrong" but because I would worry about whether he could handle the reactions of people who are less accepting.

I would hope that I would have raised him well enough to know that the people who would criticize him are probably not worth paying any attention to... but I'd worry a little nonetheless.

[glowing]

13. My 4 yr old son like to wear adult shoes.. he will put on his dads slippers

or my heels.. he does quite good in a platform pink sandal with corona written across it.. he thinks they are comfy.. squishy. If he was 30, people would beat him up.. he's 4, its cute.

[YOY]

6. Don't think too many folks here have a problem with that.

Whatever floats your boat...as long as nobody is hatin'.

[closeupready]

11. Well I will make an admission that I'm not particularly proud of.

I was once on the subway, going into the city, and across the car from me sitting on the opposite bench was a man and his (I presume) son, about 6 or so, very young. He was quite 'sissy'-ish, and I confess that it made me a little uncomfortable, and I still can't figure out precisely why. Obviously, as an openly gay man, I would never think to scold him (if I were an authority figure in his life), but sometimes, we internalize these prejudices despite our efforts to counteract it. I'm constantly working at becoming more progressive about these things.

[YOY]

16. Doesn't freak me.

Live an let live as long as people aren't doing it in hate.

[Jamastiene]

40. Have you ever discussed your particular phobia with a therapist?

I'm not joking. Have you ever discussed that "uncomfortable" feeling and that "sissy-ish" mindset with someone who is trained to help people get over their hangups?

[closeupready]

45. No - if it were something that created an ongoing problem for me, I would.

But I can't really afford to see a therapist, and it was really just that one time.

It felt awkward perhaps because I saw myself in that kid; I never had any guy friends, really - I had girl friends and played house and Barbie. I was very much a sissy myself. So I don't know, maybe I was feeling bad FOR him, but of course, the world has changed, why should his life necessarily be as bad as mine was?

Sorry if my post offended you.

[Jamastiene]

48. I got raped back in the early 90s.

For a while there, I had a real fear of masculine men. I talked to my therapist about it. Turned out I had PTSD from the trauma of the rape and the fear came from that.

Maybe you really were feeling bad for what he may have to face one day in this sick society we live in. That very well could be it. :shrug:

[closeupready]

49. Yeah, not to deliberately stereotype here, but his father

seemed a little bit of a tough guy, not that educated, sort of Archie Bunker, but maybe I was reading into it, because I didn't notice his father discouraging his son, and he didn't seem upset, so you know, people are having kids, aware that some of them are born gay or lesbian, and that's just how it is, nothing wrong with it, and you can love your gay kids as much as you love your straight kids. I do agree with your last comment - I do think part of me wanted to take this kid and explain to him all the bad things I have been through as a gay man, but of course, again, it's a new world, times are changing. I should try to be optimistic.

I'm sorry you were raped. :( Have you been able to get beyond it? I sure hope so. I've also been assaulted and robbed and I know how traumatic that can be. You live with that fear for so long, always looking over your shoulder. :mad:

[Zenlitened]

83. I recognize that feeling, too.

"...I do think part of me wanted to take this kid and explain to him all the bad things I have been through..."

Sometimes I have the impulse to want to WARN! kids. Be CAREFUL! It's DANGEROUS out there! People will try to HURT YOU!

Then I realize that they'd probably be a bit puzzled, to say the least. They'd be looking around for movie cameras, wondering if I was shooting a scene for a cheesy B-movie remake or something. :D

"It's people! Soylent Green is people!"

or

"These pods... they're aliens! That's how they're taking over! Can't you see???!!!"

:rofl:

[Jamastiene]

94. Yes, I'm beyond it for the most part now.

There are still situations that make me nervous, but those involves more than one simple factor like before. Before, it was merely any masculine man. Now, it takes factors like the person's attitude to freak me out. If their attitude is all right, nowadays, I'm all right too. It's that one certain type of anti-lesbian "cure" mentality, not the person, that scares me, in reality.

[Zenlitened]

84. I'm glad you were able to confront and grow beyond that...

... and become the terrific person you so clearly are. :hi:

[Jamastiene]

95. Awww, thank you.

I had a tough time for years, literally. There are still times I get a little edgy when people have an anti-lesbian mentality, but that's based on reason, not pure PTSD. Before, it was a situation where a dog that got bit by a snake had a fear of ropes later down the road. That has happened.

[glowing]

7. I think it depends on how you were brainwashed as you grew.

I do not care. Do what you like. If you want to wear panty-hose and doll up your face, feel free.. as a female, I often choose not to wear make-up and I wear more pants than skirts. I think the idea of female/ male clothing needs to change. Women have a free pass.. they can wear or do what they like, yet our males are more entrapped in a standard dark suit... Could you imagine Obama running around in a dress and getting elected? I feel worse for men.. women have more space for self expression thru their clothing.

[closeupready]

15. "Obama running around in a dress and getting elected" - that made me laugh.

:D Probably not, not in this country. :D

[imdjh]

57. I think the idea of clothing needs to change.

Jesus, can we kill the mens suit, please? It's only been the uniform for something like 400 years. It was invented for cold climates with no heat. Which is not to say that just because a clothing style is old, it's bad.

I would love for Americans, especially in the South, to adopt a North African or Middle Eastern style of dress. The Middle Eastern/North African loose pajama pants and big top looks so comfortable. I have forgotten what it's called. Djabi or something like that. And caftans of course.

[MineralMan]

8. I dunno, but I don't pay much attention to that stuff. So many

people out there. So little time. I guess I can't get particularly interested in random folks doing random things.

[Chipper Chat]

12. It's not wrong when it's natural to the "effeminate person."

Just like homosexuality is "natural" to a gay person. The stubborn and increasingly-enlightened right wing will, hopefully, eventually realize this - let's say, about 2110? (Hopefully much sooner)!

[imdjh]

55. How can we even know what's natural?

That's what is so fucked up about growing up in an homophobic society. Or perhaps it's simply that every mannerism is an affect and we simply choose a set of them. If an effeminate affect is annoying or disturbing, the opposite is equally annoying and more disturbing. When did we decide that a blue collar stereotype defines masculinity? And if gay males are affecting blue collar masculinity, heterosexual males are affecting a black urban masculinity. Then we have the gay guys who sound like gay guys playing straight guys on soap operas.

Who decided that modern masculinity is defined by dumbing down your vocabulary, lowering your voice to Johnny Cash's pitch, and calling each other "man", "buddy", and "dude"? Why not go for it and spit off to the side now and then for punctuation?

I actually know a couple of gay guys who chew tobacco, but they're from Oklahoma.

Is everyone on an act?

[Chipper Chat]

62. Oh hell, I know girls from Oklahoma that chew tobacco.

But we're getting off on a tangent.

[FreeState]

17. There is no such thing as just two genders (male and female)

in reality there are as many gender roles as there are people in the world. Its a beautiful tapestry of the human spirit and when we stifle it we stifle our own progress and growth.

[imdjh]

64. +1 As close to inarguable as we are likely to get on this subject. n/t

[Siwsan]

18. Oh Bla Di, Oh Bla Da, Life goes on

That being said, I LOVE a man in a kilt. Or a sarong.

[closeupready]

20. Oh, yeah. I love those kurta thingies they wear in Bollywood films. LOL

:D

[queerart]

25. A Man In A Kilt....

Is Hot, Hot, Hot......


... add Ginger hair with that kilt.....


.......and it's "Over The Top Hot"! :bounce:

[IntravenousDemilo]

97. And if it's worn right...

... it's easy to check if the carpet matches the drapes!

[doctor jazz]

19. Not disturbing but pretty unattractive (to ME, a very gay man)

It just seems stupid...if I wanted a woman I'd get a real one. I'm not attempting to speak for anybody else here.

[FreeState]

21. While it may be unattractive to you I find your statement sexist to the extreme

"if I wanted a woman I'd get a real one" - WTF - what is a real woman? What is a real man? There is no set definition at all but to claim that men that are not masculine enough to your liking is not a real man is beyond sexist both to women and men IMO.

[doctor jazz]

29. I should know better than to have an opinion on this stuff. Somebody always gets their undies

in a wad.
Here's what I meant to say: I "like" men, not women. I do not "like" men who look and act like women. If you think that makes me an asshole, feel free to think so.
good grief

[FreeState]

30. If your going to express your opinion you cant expect others to not express theirs n/t

[littlebit]

50. I completely understand how you feel.

I don't care for really butch women. I have said more than once that if I wanted a man I would go get a man. That might not be the most "pc" way of thinking but it is how I feel.

[Zuiderelle]

87. The point of this thread is not whether you are attracted to a butch woman or a femme man...

but whether it is wrong or disturbing to you that a man be effeminate (or a woman butch, since you brought that into it). To chime in here and say that you are a gay man and don't care for a effeminate men because if you 'want a woman you'll go get one,' or YOU rah-rahing that by saying that you don't care for really butch women, because if you want a man you'll go get one, is so much worse than non-pc. It's rude, offensive and insulting. How dismaying to run across gay people who are dismissive and bigoted against other gay people.

[imdjh]

90. self delete

deleted

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

91. +1

[closeupready]

22. Always found it inexplicable that in highly macho cultures, effeminate guys

seem to be popular with very masculine, macho men. Even in places where females are readily available for sex. And I mean, I have no idea if the butch guys are gay, bi or straight, but often, they have wives or girlfriends, but sleep with the 'maricone' on the side.

Can someone explain the dynamics of that?

[Jamastiene]

41. Quite a few men tend to love other men more than they do women.

It's just something I have noticed. Regardless of their sexual orientation, quite a few men tend to enjoy the company of other men way more than they do women.

If you take a look at our own macho American culture, many straight men, in particular, enjoy a Sunday watching football with the guys, going fishing with the guys, doing anything with the guys. I can't speak for men as to why that is. I'm not a man.

I am a woman who at one time liked only feminine women. Now, I find myself attracted to what many would refer to as "soft butch" women too. I don't really care why. It all comes down to whatever gets a person through the night or what floats someone's boat.

Maybe the bi and gay men who like the more feminine men just do it because that's their taste in other men. If it suits them, who is to say whether it is "right" or "wrong?" It's their business. Different strokes for different folks, ya know? :shrug:

[Name removed]

31. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Jamastiene]

42. It seems "stupid" to you?

What exactly is "stupid" about it? What if that's the way they want to dress? If you are not attracted, you can just walk away. I still don't see how you can see it as stupid. While you might not be disturbed, you sure seem to have a negative attitude about it.

[doctor jazz]

47. Okay, I should have said pointless.

Why is my own personal preference such a lightning rod to people here?? I just like men who look and act like men...why the hell is that such a terrible thing?
jesuschrist...aren't Democrats supposed to 'get' stuff like this? I AM one because I thought so.

:eyes: :shrug:

[FreeState]

77. Id like to clarify my comment to you from above

I did not mean it attack on your preference of masculine over feminine. I have absolutely no issue with that - and never would seeing that you are not me and its none of my business.

The part I think were we are clashing is that many of us were told as young men to act like real men - meaning dont act "gay" or feminine. We were told to pretend we were something we were not. It was a way of society telling you that if you do not act a certain way you are not authentic, your fake or your bad. While I am not a feminine guy, Im middle of the road like most people, I still experienced this growing up. I have close friends that are very feminine naturally and they had to live through a living hell growing up because of attitudes like that. The same has been done to women and minorities throughout the ages. "Real Women" wear dresses, dont talk "ghetto", etc.

I realize that was not your intention, however intended or not this is an issue most gay men and women know about on a first hand basis - so hopefully this is something you did not personally have to experience and are just now learning about. It would make me very happy to know that society is no longer rigidly enforcing gender roles that damage others.

I searched for a thread that was on this very topic a few years back but cant find it in the archives. It was long but good. It was amazing to see how even heterosexual men felt they had to act a certain way to be accepted in society as male.

I have not seen you around the GLBT forum before so hopefully we will see you around more. If I made you mad or you felt I was attacking you please accept my apology because it certainly was not my intention.

[doctor jazz]

89. I understand and want to thank you for the clarification. I tried, not as well as I wanted, to

explain that I have no quarrel with how anyone wishes to present him or herself to the world...only that some expressions just don't tingle my loins...as it were. :D

I have been with my partner since 1981. We have the arrangement we're comfortable with...and are probably not anywhere near 'typical' gay folk, we actually only know about 2 or 3 others and don't circulate in what most people would think of 'gay circles' but our friends, 99% of which are hetero never give any indication that they think we're 'strange'. I guess we would be considered very 'butch' but that's just the way we are. :-)

[La Lioness Priyanka]

75. i am fine with your first statement which is a declaration of your own tastes

the second is a judgment. "It just seems stupid" as though the rest of us who are attracted to gender nonconforming people are somehow less than you

if i wanted narrow opinions to define my sexuality i would have stayed straight.

[Bluebear]

96. As you age you'll discover not everything is about what turns you on sexually.

I mean that in the kindest way because I can appreciate what you're trying to express, but comes a time when you will realize that there is beauty in people that is not sexually related.

[endarkenment]

23. I don't care what you wear or what gender you like to display.

It is your choice. I might find your appearance unattractive to me or oddly clownish, but I find lots of non gender blending people to be unattractive or oddly clownish as well.

In general I agree that the cultural norm here permits women to cross dress without much in the way of negative consequences, while men who do so in public certainly could face considerable risk.

[Toucano]

24. There's nothing wrong with it until

it becomes an affectation.

People come in all shapes, sizes, color, and flavors. Every person exhibits some traits or mannerisms of the opposite sex.

I don't like any feminine person (male or female) who thinks femininity is synonymous with stupid and acts like an airhead. I would not, however, kill them for doing it. I just find it obnoxious.

On the opposite page, hyper-masculine men and women also sometimes adopt an affected masculinity that is artificial, and it annoys me just as much.

In both cases, it is as if the person is playing a character they've created, rather than being themselves.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

32. So basically, you get annoyed if people don't fit into the gender roles you define

[Toucano]

33. Yeah, that's what I said.

People who are false or posers annoy me.

Are you a poser?

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

34. I'm not particularly masculine or feminine, so I'd probably pass your poser test

But I don't know what your definitions are.

[Toucano]

35. Not so fast. n-t

[Jamastiene]

43. "Posers?"

How do you know those people aren't just being themselves? Who are you to call them "posers?" How would you feel if someone called you a poser for just being you?

[Toucano]

52. Learning to tell if someone is genuine is an important life skill.

If someone is giving you a performance, and you listen and watch closely, you'll know.

[closeupready]

68. I sort of know what you mean. For example,

Tom Selleck (who I just found out this week is a Republican, sadly) has always struck me as a poser. He's like a way, way, WAY over-the-top butch gay man. And does absolutely nothing for me.

[imdjh]

74. Agree. Oddly, in the 70's he seemed hot.

[Name removed]

36. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Toucano]

37. I didn't ask them to fit anyone's idea about who they are.

People who are "acting" a persona or role are not likely to become my friends because they are not comfortable being who they are, so they create a character to be instead. It's tiresome.

If you read closely, I think you'll find I said this is true for men and women, straight and gay.

SNAP!

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

76. i can understand that.

[damntexdem]

26. What's wrong are those, including some psychiatrists and many school systems, that try to stop it.

Barring people from the identification they feel natural for them should be a crime.

[Jamastiene]

44. I agree.

There seems to be a systemic mentality that girls MUST conform to a predefined role and boys MUST conform to a predefined role when, in reality, people are just who they are. It's the insistence on conformity by the system itself that causes so many people so much grief if they are not able to fit those predefined roles.

[8 track mind]

27. Doesn't really bother me

most of the effeminate men i have ever come across are some of the most fun loving and highly intelligent people i have ever met.

[tbyg52]

28. God, who cares?

I would prefer that private parts not be hanging out, but that's about the extent of my simple requirements.....

[Jamastiene]

39. I'll let Joan Jett explain it.

She always says it best for my views for some reason. To me, it's no big deal. :shrug:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Bs6QT82Tu4

(Off topic, but I wanted to just say it)
It's nice to have role models from my childhood who are something to be proud of. I'd say JJ is one I can always be proud of. I just wanted to say that. She deserves props.
:patriot:

[closeupready]

46. Yes, I always loved her.

:hi:

[mitchtv]

51. I am attracted to butch women

and effeminate men as well as butch men

[La Lioness Priyanka]

65. hey, we have the same tastes!!!

:hi:

[mitchtv]

86. I come from "Queens"

as a matter of fact

[DarkTirade]

53. Current American society thinks so.

Which is just one of many reasons why I've never cared much what current American society thinks.

[imdjh]

54. It all depends on the situation.

The easy answer is "Whatever they want to do." but the question wasn't how do you respond, it's how do you react. I react negatively in certain situations and not others. How middle of the road could I be? But it's true. If I am at a bar, a party, or in my home and someone is camping it up, then I react differently than I do when someone is making a fool of himself in public. And yet, I vividly remember deliberately making a fool of myself in public many times. We did it on purpose, for shock value, but that was back in the 1970's and now it seems kind of tired to me.

Acting effeminate can be hilarious. It can also become a habit, especially the switching pronouns and talking like drag queens. If a friend calls me up and says, "Oh girl, I seen you at Walmart." he's being funny. I know a couple of straight guys who do something similar, except that instead of imitating drag queens or Wanda Sykes, they are imitating a gay stereotype.

I remember riding on a bus many years ago when two teenaged boys were just flaming all over the place. When they got off, a young black woman in the back turned to her friend and said something like, "That's offensive. Women doesn't act that way." So it would appear that she thought that the gay boys were imitating a female stereotype, a silly one. She was right, women DON'T act that way. So perhaps effeminate isn't even the right word for this. Other words we have used ourselves would be swishing, trashing, camping, etc... but it's really not acting effeminate in a dictionary sense of the word.

My mom has a favorite expression applied to all sorts of behaviors, "You don't have to act like what they call you." I've never been completely sure what that means, but it seems to make sense.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

59. You seem to think that people choose how masculine or feminine they are

They don't.

[imdjh]

63. Would you explain that to me?

I would agree that there seems to be some predisposition to masculinity or femininity but then I've seen some remarkable changes in a given person over time. Honestly, as I said in another post, the words don't really seem adequate or precise enough to nail all this down. Unfortunately, many of the other words we have at our disposal are considered pejorative, because they have been used that way.

Is a butch woman actually masculine? Is a nelly guy actually feminine? Are we actually talking about a member of one sex acting like the other sex, or are we talking about a range of perceptions and behaviors which actually belong to the sex of the person being observed? I can't reduce all this down to something simple and concrete. I realize that there are people who have written extensively on the subject, but I don't see anything that looks like science there. I find what they write to be interesting because it's an organized way of looking at it, but they tend to throw in words which don't really have scientific quality to them and which often appear to be attempting to make something opinion based look fact based. So while I might consider the work interesting and even important, I don't consider it to be the final word. We all have our experiences and opinions.

So rather than speak in general terms or about others, I should probably stick to my experiences and analysis. I remember my first month in college. I still looked and acted like a certain type of semi-rural male I suppose. I know that at least one person thought I was "masculine" because he went ga-ga over me and I didn't seem to get a lot of negative attention. In that year, my style and behavior changed considerably, towards what most people would think of as a "screaming queen". I know this, because I got called that. One day, I took a new friend from college out to the horse farm and he watched me riding in the ring. Later he said, "That was amazing. You completely change when you are on a horse. You're so butch." So there is a situation where I didn't "act" one way or the other, one would probably say that I stopped acting and reverted to my normal self in my normal environment. So I would have a hard time agreeing with the idea that I didn't choose to act "fem" at school, if my behavior changed by being on the horse farm even though no one other than a person who knew me as "fem" was observing.

[imdjh]

56. I see the issue for women a little differently than for men

I have worn pantyhose and a girdle and a dress and women's shoes, and make-up ONCE. That was enough for me. What a pain in the ass all that stuff is. The pantyhose feels like it's crawling, even when it isn't. The girdle was a vise, I had to take it off to eat after the dance because it was strangling me. My feet hurt from the shoes and the make-up was high maintenance in a warm ballroom.

Besides, women look better in men's clothes than men do in women's clothes. MY opinion, of course.

[RetiredTrotskyite]

58. I Don't Have A Problem....

with it, but then I tend to take people as they are. Why try to dress and act in a way that makes you unhappy?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

60. i find gender nonconforming behavior in either gender very sexy

[closeupready]

66. Like you, I also like butch women. I always have.

:hi:

[La Lioness Priyanka]

67. when lisa walks through chelsea she gets cruised a lot. i think its very hot

i am a perv like that :)

[closeupready]

69. LOL - is that right?

I had a crush on a boyish-looking dyke back in college. She was at beer blast with her friends, and I so wanted to make out with her. :D That's the closest I'll ever get to ... well, you know. :rofl:

[NMMNG]

61. Who gives a hoot?

If people spent less time worrying about inconsequential crap like forcing people into little boxes and punishing them for failing to stay in those boxes they'd have more time to focus on important issues and the world would be a much better place. Really, why does anybody give a crap who wears what?

[LeftHander]

70. Key point to remember in this discussion...

For the gender variant person (like myself, trans m2f) the acceptance of my expression of gender is not my problem it is your problem.

People that have taken the steps either consciously or unconsciously to break with traditional gender differentiation do so because it helps to define themselves. The process of discovery is a long one. Tearing away the manufactured cultural "norm" is not a light switch process. There is learning, experience and comfort to develop. So really...it is not our problem...it is your problem.

I tell people who ask me why I am trans..."I removed the straight male filter."

I filtered everything through the internal "Does this make me look femmy or gay?" I did so through out life and it was not normal. Healthy people don't have to ask questions to themselves to present a proper self image to society.

I removed the filter about 5 years ago and let the person start to emerge...

[imdjh]

79. How about the female straight filter?

This is something I really don't get. If straight men don't define masculinity, and I don't believe that they do (in a way we tell them what's masculine), then surely straight women don't define femininity. Then why would a transperson be an M2F or a F2M rather than a "trans"? I understand the utility of letting people know what's going on by designating biological sex and also gender , but from in an academic discussion of masculinity or femininity in which we maintain that one group or another doesn't get to decide what is masculine and what is feminine, then to designate oneself as M2F would seem to agree that your gender is defined by a norm.

[LeftHander]

102. True any "definition" based on a binary....

Can be said to justify the existence of that binary.

But as you said it is used for cultural context. Trans Person certainly would be acceptable but would be ambiguous to the uninformed.

Using M2F, F2M...is a designate to identify origin and transition direction...

For me...transgender, M2F, Trans woman are a pretty good designations that clearly indicate to others what is going on.

Gender will always have to be defined by cultural norms. Having said that...culture can and does change.

Masculinity and Femininity are not exclusive to the domains of male and female biological gender.

We know that certain traits are identified as masculine and feminine. Both sexes have a mix of both and some individuals are on the extreme outliers of the "gender bell curve" (female icons, male icons etc...)...complicating matters, beyond simply the biological definitions of gender (genetic, anatomical - Secondary sexual characteristics) Society has pressures that enforce a particular gender expression for the corresponding genetic gender. Society and culture exists to apply these pressures as well as responding to them.

Western Society expects gender to be binary. In other cultures gender fluctuations are acceptable. So my "gender filter" was aptly described. Woman have a gender filter too. When people enter into the realm of transgender they are retooling the filter. First by eliminating restrictions and then applying new ones. For instance...I no longer force myself to behave masculine nor do I check any effeminate behavior. I however do not allow myself to go beyond the boundaries of appropriate social behavior. If you were to see me in public you would most likely be confused as to my gender. I see this in people and they if understand and accept gender variation then they respond accordingly "Ma'me or Miss". Others who don't accept gender variation will laugh, scowl, or over emphasize "SIR!" To purposefully enforce historically accepted cultural gender expression.

Once the amplification of gender by cultural pressure is removed, the individual can stop the internal conversation. The result is a gender expression that is individual and fluid.

Transgender persons operate on the premise that society and culture is fluid and will ultimately change and become accepting.

Our culture is changing to be more accepting of gender variation. As it does so, more individuals will drop the filter that traps them in a gender binary system. Young people in particular are much freer to experiment with gender expression than my generation was

Gender is rapidly becoming the sum of: Genetic gender, anatomical gender, gender expression, cultural gender and individual gender identity; rather than simply biological and anatomical.

We are moving beyond "pink and blue".

Interesting is the use of female pro-nouns by gay males. Homosexuality has long blurred the gender lines and is why "T" is in LGBT...

All in all it is delightfully confusing and complex this topic gender. It is so inherently human how we see ourselves and as a result we indeed live very enriched lives, full of wonder.

[Crowman1979]

71. I don't care as long as their not one of the RW hypocrite closet-types.

And if that's the case, then you ask them for a $1000 so you won't tell their wife! LOL

[One_Life_To_Give]

72. Unfortunatly for many it is

The derisions cast at Rudy Gulianni for appearing in Drag with Donald Trump for a NYC advertisement. Come to mind as an example of how little tolerance is found even on general DU. Here in GLBT at least we can expect much better.

Although I do think it is better than 50yrs ago. I still can't go to the office in a Sun Dress and strapy heels on a hazy, hot and humid August day.

[IntravenousDemilo]

98. I think at least some of the derision originated in the fact that Guiliani is a Republican...

... and the Republicans are notoriously and vocally and "righteously" anti-gay (not the Log Cabiners, though; they're just self-loathing).

Also, he looked like he fell out of the fugly tree and hit every branch on the way down.

[TEmperorHasNoClothes]

73. You sound young, being comfortable in your own skin comes with age and experience

and it's not limited to being in the LGBT community.

[tekisui]

78. Everyone should be comfortable and confident to express their

true selves, in any way they see fit. It doesn't matter why, everyone should feel free to be themselves, and express themselves.

[qb]

80. Not a problem for me... my SO is a former drag queen.

My closest female friend is rather butch.

I live by the old nursery school lesson: "It's what's inside that counts."

I was quite a sissy boy as a youngster and really got teased. I learned to "butch up" to fit in. In my 40's I finally learned to relax again. It would be good if everyone just lightened up about mannerisms & clothing.

[sui generis]

81. it's an atavistic reaction

We cavemen like our men to be strong and competitive. Weak men (perceived) threaten the tribe's survival. We monkeys must beat them and chase them out of the tribe.

The longer answer is, we fear weakness as if it can be communicated. We fear the weakness in ourselves. Ironically it takes a bigger set of brass ones to be yourself than to "act straight".

Isn't it odd we only ask the question about womanish men and not mannish women.

Ultimately, who cares - oh, yeah the third world monkeys in south asia and the middle east.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

82. actually lots of people ask about mannish women and even on du

i have seen people deride butch girls. on the feminist forum someone argued the butch partner is more likely to be abusive etc

mannish women threaten the order for men

[sui generis]

85. what disturbs me the most

is that people even feel compelled to have a judgement about it at all.

"It's not me. It's not what I would do. I can't relate to it. Not my cup of tea." Those are valid "conclusions", but to have to arrive at some kind of rule for accepting or condemning somebody as right or wrong is just sad.

All the more reason we have to be who we are. It's what "pride" means. Sorry about the "mannish" and "womanish" license - it was to make the point.

One thing is for sure - there are as many flavors of us as there are shades in the rainbow. . . and it's all good. Black and white as a palette for humanity - not very interesting.

Oh jeez, Hamden probably thinks I made another racial boo boo.

[Zuiderelle]

88. OMG

You said "Black and white... are not very interesting." I think I'll make that my sigline and quote you on it in as out of context ways as possible, as evidence of racism.


:*

[Duncan Grant]

92. You didn't use any apostrophes so I think you're safe.

[imdjh]

99. Speaking of cavemen

Scottish folklore includes a tale that some king (I forgot his name) sent some orphaned infants to live on one of the Orkneys with a mute or deaf-mute woman as caretaker. Presumably supplies were somehow gotten to them over the course of the next few years. The goal was to see what language a person would speak if deprived of an example. The legend goes that the children (and hopefully the caretaker) were later retrieved and examined by scholars to see what language the children were speaking. Not surprisingly, the legend maintains that they were speaking Hebrew.

It would be tougher to do this experiment with sex and mannerisms or affect, but if you could send gay male infants to live on an uninhabited island, with no female or camp behaviors to observe, and no movie magazines either, then would you expect them to exhibit a range of masculine and "feminine" behaviors?

[closeupready]

101. That's a good point. Behaviors defined as 'masculine' and 'feminine' are bound by culture.

For example, traditionally in the West (or at least, the US), women are supposed to be more emotional than men, who are stoic. Meanwhile in much of the Middle East, it is traditionally men who are emotional and women who are the more stoic.

At the same time, I do believe that testosterone has an impact on outward behavior, so I presume in some respects, behaviors commonly defined as masculine would be exhibited by boys in such an experiment.

[Stevenmarc]

93. Only if they wear white after Labor Day

[LeftHander]

103. :giggle:....nt

[DuaneBidoux]

104. your fucking kidding, right?

[closeupready]

105. If I fucking were, I would have probably said something humorous in the thread title.

Since I did not, fuck no. Dead serious.

What a rude question. :mad:

[Chovexani]

106. My thoughts on this.

(I apologize in advance for the incoming Giant Wall of Text, BTW. But I love to pontificate on this subject.)

I have a bit of an androgyny fetish. I personally don't identify as genderqueer, though I fit a lot of the markers and agree with the general sentiment (I think gender is a spectrum much akin to the Kinsey Scale/Klein Continuum and not nearly as cut and dry as most people believe).

I've been actively involved in the Gothic subculture for well over ten years now (close to 15, really), and as a community we are far less hung up on gender and sexuality than the mainstream. Our fashion sense is really all about creativity and expressing yourself, in a way that's meaningful to you (or just fucking hot). This is a culture where hetero men wear as much makeup as their female counterparts, and regularly rock skirts of all lengths, waist-cinchers, and corsetry. A culture where hetero women shave their heads, wear ties and chains and all sorts of traditionally "masculine" accessories. Where bisexuality/some form of queer sexuality or at the very least, heteroflexibility are pretty much assumed to be the default. And these things are not just tolerated, they're accepted and celebrated. A very old "You know you're a goth if..." joke goes something like, "if you don't know the gender of the hot person you're cruising at the club". And the corollaries, "but you went home with them anyway" and "you slept with them and still don't know...and don't care". :evilgrin: On one of the goth fashion mailing lists I'm on, there was a recent post that actually bemoaned the lack of gender bending the OP has seen in her local scene lately.

Before I really got into the Goth scene, I had a lot of internalized issues about my appearance. I'm 5'10" and 105 lbs, and have been since the 8th grade. I was also a big tomboy growing up, hated wearing dresses, and preferred roughhousing with my boy cousins in my Osh Kosh overalls than playing tea-party with stuffed animals and Barbies. When I hit my pre-teen years, being flat chested, tall and skinny really didn't help--particularly being black, where the standard of beauty for a woman is "thick" and curvy, something I could not be if I tried. My hair grew long, thick, and fast due to my weird assed mix of genes, but I HATED it, I hated how everyone in the goddamn world had something to say about it, whether it was to accuse me of having weaves, telling me I "must have Indian in you to have such 'good hair'", etc. I hated being forced by my mom and sister to their salon, where every stylist seemed to be a shallow, stuck up, judgemental cow and I had absolutely no choice in how my hair looked ("no, you can't have it short, on you it would look bulldyke-ish!"). I grew to associate "femininity" with oppressive bullshit that held no meaning for me and only conspired to make me miserable, so I actively didn't care about it. I felt like if I looked like an ugly boy anyway, what was the point? I internalized all that. When I would try to put on dresses and makeup, I felt like a hideous, awkward tranny and wanted to crawl into a hole.

Then my best friend got into punk, and I sort of followed that into 70s glam and eventually discovered the Wonderful World of Goth. It was the music that initially drew me in, but I fucking loved the fashion element. I thought the entire aesthetic was the most beautiful thing ever and it clicked with me in a big way. I loved that putting thought into how you looked was encouraged without the same kind of oppressive pressure to conform to some fucked up standard (this is not to say Goths are not catty as fuck, we most certainly are, but we are not nearly as monolithic in style as outsiders think we are. Our only real rule is "don't be a tacky git".). I threw myself into experimenting with different styles. I even started wearing dresses and skirts, and for the first time actually felt feminine. To this day, I can't wear "normal" women's clothes without feeling horribly uncomfortable, but I can spend hours in a corset and 3 inch platform boots. And feel really goddamned beautiful in a way I never do in "regular" clothes. I'll be damned if I can explain it, but it's true. Here's the kicker, though--I wear everything from the aforementioned corsets and dresses to wifebeaters and bondage pants with superfluous zippers. I wear ties with skulls to work one day and frilly blouses the next. I can literally look like a Victorian noblewoman one minute and a male glam rocker the next. And no matter what I'm wearing, I feel like a gorgeous bad ass. It helps that everyone in my circle of friends tends to think the same. :)

...and yet, despite all that, a couple of weeks ago I got my hair cut super short and dyed bright cherry red by a friend, and felt a twinge of pain when my mom saw me and said that I looked like a little boy. Despite feeling really fucking hot when I came out, I'm still looking in the mirror on occasion wondering if I'm ugly. I still have those internalized issues despite my best efforts and years spent in environments where that sort of thing didn't matter. Mainstream American society does a lot to beat this nonsense into us, from the minute we check out of Hotel Vajayjay, and it can be hard to shake. My feeling though? Androgyny is beautiful, and lines are for coloring books. Rock on with your bad self, no matter what that self may be packing in the pants.

[Prism]

107. You remind me a bit of my boyfriend

And, I have to say, he's taught me an awful lot in the time we've been together.

I grew up a stereotypical blue-collar environment and ended up a pretty stereotypical blue-collar male. I never quite understood gay "affectation" after coming out. Ending sentences with "girl" and femming it up felt uncomfortable and foreign, and being in environments that were high in camp content - when not done in jest - always put me off. I'm the kind of asshole who would say to people, "I don't date effeminate men. Does nothing for me."

Enter the bf, a new wave goth type who worships Bowie and Velvet Goldmine and has me listening to roughly several hundred 80s songs a day. He wears boots, tight purple pants, eye liner, dog chains - whatever strikes his fancy.

And I love him precisely because he has no problem being who he is. Once I realized all of it was an expression of his personality, unyielding, uncompromised, unabashed, all of the old baggage was swept away. Even in this day and age, it isn't easy bouncing around wearing what he does, but he honestly doesn't care. It's what makes him feel happy and attractive. I don't think I have ever seen someone have such a good time in their own skin without a care or thought for what other people think.

He's quite honestly the first person in a long line of ex-boyfriends, where I find myself thinking, "I love him exactly how he is. I wouldn't want to change a single thing."

And once I realized I felt that way about him, about someone who was almost anathema to my idea of what was male or masculine, it was really liberating. It was as if his total lack of caring about others opinions' of him was contagious.

Now, he'll grab my hand in public or kiss me on the street - things I used to be mortally self-conscious about. But being around someone like him, that confident and sure of himself, the masculine/feminine equation just doesn't enter into it. Ifyou're being yourself and that makes you happy, well, that's all that really matters.

[Chovexani]

112. That's really cool.

And you're totally right. I think a lot of people get scared when faced with something that doesn't necessarily fit into ready made constructs. I always sort of double take when I hear people freak out over whether someone is a man or a woman. "She looks like a man!" gets a "so?" from me. Or if I'm feeling uncharitable, "and you look like an idiot". :evilgrin:

I'll never understand that deep seated need some people have for clear cut boundaries and labels. As long as you're happy what difference does it make? People need to calm down.

[Tim01]

108. I guess I'll be the one to say it bothers me.

I don't know exactly why, and I don't really care. I don't have to get along with every single person on the face of the planet. I'm straight maybe that is it.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

109. that probably is it. nt

[Starry Messenger]

110. I'm straight and it doesn't bother me at all.

[FreeState]

111. I think it may have more to do with being an American Male more than your orientation

in the USA gender roles are very strictly enforced from a very early age. Its engrained in us - pink for girls blue for boys. Girls play with dolls, boys play with trucks. Girls giggle, boys smile. etc etc. Its not until we are forces to evaluate our automatic thoughts and beliefs that we can be open to asking why.

[Chovexani]

113. This.

Like I said before, American society beats this stuff into us from the minute we check out of Hotel Vajayjay. It's so pervasive in almost every aspect of life in this country, from TV commercials and the media, to our consumer culture. It's a wonder there are people who learn to question it at all, frankly.

I'm a child of the 80s, and growing up my mom was hardcore about enforcing the gender line with my toys. I wasn't allowed to have Transformers even though I wanted an Optimus Prime SO BAD. I wasn't allowed to have GI Joes or He-Mans. She-Ra was okay though, because they were all girls. It sucked because the only girly toys I liked were My Little Ponies. I thought Barbie was boring and lame. Jem dolls were where it was at for me, because they were bigger, had bad ass hair and funky clothes. And Jem wasn't some boring blonde Malibu bimbo, she was a rock star. I directly blame Jem for my propensity as an adult to dye my hair colors that don't occur in nature. I even made a couple of them into a butch/femme couple, without even knowing what that was. I accidentally broke Jem's boyfriend Rio, so she was without a gentleman companion. I had an extra Roxy lying around so I just cut off all her hair, stuck her in Rio's clothes, and declared her Jem's new boyfriend. My mom was sort of horrified, as I recall.

It's really funny now that I think about it, because despite all the neurotic policing of my toys, I still ended up queer as a three dollar bill and indiscriminate about gender.

[Tim01]

121. I think parents trying to put their kids on a particular path is a waste of time.

And parents disapproving of the gender path a kid is on only does damage.
My experience has been that kids are going to grow up to be what they will. It is necessary to teach them how to survive and prosper in this society. Then they can make their own choices.
If a guy wants to wear a dress and go up to a bunch of rednecks and start running his mouth about gay rights, he is putting himself in danger.
I have tried to teach my kids what they need to know to survive and run their own lives. I have also tried to teach them to stand up for themselves and be their own person. If my boy wants to play with dolls and flowers and redneck boys want to pick on him for that, he has my encouragement to hurt somebody. Everybody deserves to the opportunity to make their own decisions and be left alone. But life is not always fair.

[Tim01]

116. I think it is more of a genetic predisposition thing.

My boy was raised to be unconcerned about what people look like. Everybody is evaluated on actions. Pretty much the opposite of how I was raised. My dad was a racist homophobic Marine.
But when he was about 6 and a guy came to the house wearing a dress, he was very much disturbed. I had to put a stop to that for a few years, caused a few fights. The boy is older now and has learned to not pay any attention to what people look like. The cross dressing kind of thing still kind of bothers him though, and especially effeminate guys. Me too.

[One_Life_To_Give]

122. They learn so much from peers and society at large

Really hard to say that any child has been raised in a truly neutral environment. Hence it's not really possible to say that it is truly genetic and not a learned behavior. All of our cultural norms are learned. Pink is not universally for girls in some countries only men can wear it. Pants although a recent invention had a time when the church banned the wearing of them, as they were worn by Barbarians. Just to cite a couple examples.

[Tim01]

125. I think what they learn is what is acceptable in society.

There are lots of different societies of course. The things people can get away with in this society would be a death sentence in others.
So kids learn to play the game. If a boy wants to play with dolls he will either learn to keep quiet, or he will pretend he doesn't like dolls at all. It doesn't change the fact that he does like dolls. On of our family members was like that a few years back. I don't know why he liked dolls, and I don't care. But when he had male friends over he put the dolls all in a closet and locked the door. Society is what it is, I think he probably made the best choice for him. He is not a fighter, and he doesn't want to be ostracized, and he still wanted to have the dolls.
When his friends left he would bring the dolls back out.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

126. pink even in this culture, was originally for little boys. it switched years later.

[FreeState]

127. Interesting - did a search on it and found this

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2831/was-pink-originally-the-color-for-boys-and-blue-for-girls

In the 1800s most infants were dressed in white, and gender differences weren't highlighted until well after the kids were able to walk. Both boys and girls wore dresses or short skirts until age five or six. Differences in clothing were subtle: boys’ dresses buttoned up the front, for example, while girls’ buttoned up the back. Why no attempt to discriminate further? One theory is that distinguishing boys from girls was less important than distinguishing kids from adults. Childhood was a time of innocence, whereas adulthood typically meant grueling physical labor. Perhaps mothers decking out their little boys in dresses thought: They’ll get to be manly soon enough.

By midcentury baby clothing in colors other than white had begun to appear, but gender-based distinctions were slow to emerge. In 1855 the New York Times reported on a "baby show" put on by P.T. Barnum, exhibiting "one hundred and odd babies" dressed in pinks, blues, and other colors seemingly without regard to gender. In a passage from Louisa May Alcott's 1868-'69 blockbuster Little Women, a female twin is distinguished by a pink ribbon and a male twin by a blue one, but this is referred to as "French fashion," suggesting it wasn't the rule over here. A Times fashion report from 1880 has boys and girls dressed alike in white, pink, blue, or violet, and another from 1892 says young girls were wearing a variety of colors that spring, including several shades of blue.

But from the 1890s onward, boys' and girls' clothing styles started to diverge, with boys dressed in trousers or knickers at progressively earlier ages. Jo Paoletti of the University of Maryland, a longtime specialist on the topic, reviewed more than 500 descriptions and images of children's clothing appearing in print between 1890 and 1920 and notes a rapid "masculinization" of boys' wear, for reasons that remain obscure.

As part of this differentiation, there seems to have been an effort to establish characteristic colors for girls and boys. But it took decades to develop a consensus on what those colors were. For years one camp claimed pink was the boys' color and blue the girls'. A 1905 Times article said so, and Parents magazine was still saying it as late as 1939. Why pink for boys? Some argued that pink was a close relative of red, which was seen as a fiery, manly color. Others traced the association of blue with girls to the frequent depiction of the Virgin Mary in blue.


-------


I should note that in color theory blue is the last color of the primary colors a boy develops the ability to see so painting a boys room baby blue is NOT a good idea:) Sorry no link on that - just from a recent class my partner took on color.

[Duncan Grant]

114. It has nothing to do with your straightness and everything to do with one's attitude.

If you're interested in being an ally of LGBT people it helps if you don't say things like:

- I don't really care.

- I don't have to get along with every single person on the face of the planet.

You're certainly entitled to your opinion but it seems a waste of your time (and ours) for you to type: it bothers me and I don't really care to understand why.

Okie dokie. Thanks for stopping by. :hi:

If, on the other hand, you'd like to learn more about gender/gender roles/ethnocentrism and/or a host of other fascinating, intellectually stimulating topics -- feel free to pull up a chair, you're welcome here.

Your choice, dude.

[Tim01]

115. Are you telling me to get out of this forum?

Agree with you or get out. Is that it?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

117. if you dont support gay & trans rights and it doesnt bother you, why are you here?

[Tim01]

119. Why are you hyper defensive?

I just answered the question. Everybody has equal rights as far as I am concerned. It is really annoying that you insist I have to like eliminate guys or else I am persecuting gays.
Try decaf.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

120. LOL. enjoy your stay.

:boring:

[Left Is Write]

123. Aren't you cute.

"Try decaf."

:eyes:

[Creideiki]

128. "Everybody has equal rights" might be your problem

Right now, everybody does not have equal rights. There's definitely straight privilege in the US. For one, people that are non-gender-conforming have it even rougher than those who are gender-conforming who have same-sex sexual orientations. That's an aspect of straight privilege that can even seep into gay communities when people aren't watching.

It will be a much better world when we can get away from concentrating on other people's race, religion, sexual orientation and the gender roles they feel natural with.

[iris27]

129. "eliminate guys"

Freudian slip, much?

[Tim01]

132. Yeah, I know. It was too late to fix it by the time I noticed it.

Typing is not my strong point.

[Duncan Grant]

118. Far from it.

I'm inviting you to choose between an informed opinion and an uninformed opinion. You don't have to agree with me to post in this forum.

Again, it's your choice.

[Deep13]

124. Certainly it is not wrong. In what way could it be?

My reaction is parochial followed by rationality. My brief initial reaction is to wonder what is wrong with this guy. I then realize that I had an irrational impulse and remind myself that no ones personality is wrong. That's pretty much the end of it and my thoughts return to whatever is going on. I hope no one here is offended by this, since the important think is to recognize the prejudice for what it is and to move on.

A "masculine" woman has never bothered me. My family is full of assertive women and to me that just seems normal. Frankly, it is the mousy women who strike me as unusual.

[iris27]

130. No, it's hot. :)

Though of course that's just my opinion.

I do believe we are in a bit of a stalled-out, half-completed gender revolution, though. We've made it mostly acceptable for women to do and like masculine things. Though at times women who are very knowledgeable about, say, sports or cars do get the "oh, how cute, she thinks she's people" treatment.

BUT we totally have not moved on into a world where it is acceptable for men to do and like feminine things. It's seen as "gay", "stupid"...it really threatens the status quo. Whoever posted upthread about a theoretical dress-wearing Obama is right. HRC wears pantsuits pretty much 24/7, but a beskirted male politician couldn't get elected to school board today, much less become a frontrunner for a major party's nomination.

IMO, this is rooted in the same misogyny as all sexism - it's ok for women to want to learn 'masculine' things and copy 'masculine' behaviors because society believes anything masculine is superior. But 'feminine' skills and behaviors are seen as undesirable. Weak. "Silly". So any man visibly displaying feminine traits or knowledge is seen to be debasing himself.

I fucking hate the gender binary. Why can't we let people just be people already?

[closeupready]

131. Yes, you got it - 'misogyny'. That IS what underlies hostility to crossdressing and

men acting like women.

[Left Is Write]

133. "Why can't we let people just be people already?"

:thumbsup:

[Crowman1979]

134. Just as long as they follow the rules of fashion.

I for one do not wanna see a chubby guy with a beard wearing a women's thong bikini, unless they are doing that out of humor. Otherwise it will be a total turnoff and ruin my weekend, which will warrant them a light slap with my fan and scold them to put on something else

[One_Life_To_Give]

135. Better avoid Old Orchard Beach on Canada Day then

:hide:

[Iggo]

136. Doesn't bother me.

But it's not me he has to worry about.

So it's not about whether or not it's right. It's about whether or not it's smart.

Things are getting better...but really really slowly. And it's still a dangerous world out there.