is it time to form a defense group?

[sniffa]

a weLL-reguLated miLitia of sorts?

after reading about these 2 incidents: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3199794

maybe it's time to fight back and defend.
just a thought. :mad:

[mongo]

1. Yeah

but it should be bigger than just the GBLT community.

[sniffa]

4. sure thing

it wouLd be great if it was bigger. anyone against this shit.

it might be bad, but i'd Like these fuckers to have a LittLe fear in them for a change.

[Warpy]

2. It couldn't hurt

There was another one: "Court records say 21-year-old James Maestas of Santa Fe was beaten into unconsciousness Sunday by a man and two teenagers who were yelling anti-gay vulgarities."

http://www.krqe.com/expanded.asp?ID=8816

Not in the story but present in the newscast was the item that one of the attackers is out on probation after serving time for raping a four year old boy.

[fertilizeonarbusto]

6. Ah, pillars of society, I see n/t

[ashmanonar]

3. idk, then the government would have even more excuse

to hurt gays...they'd go after all gay rights, even if only a few people are in the militia...it's a dangerous precedent to set.

[sniffa]

5. maybe, just maybe

(again i'm thinking out Loud in response to emotion)

this is the route to go for gay rights.

[davidinalameda]

19. so you just want to sit back and let them start taking us one by one

[ashmanonar]

23. did i say that?

what i mean is that militarism is not the way to go. do you want to end up like THEM?

what would be a logical approach is to unionize, so to speak, all the gays in america, and internationally if you want. make it so if they attack one person, the others all respond legally. make it like aarp or naacp, so that you have legal teams and a lobby in washington. use the government system like most other marginalized groups use it. it's not the best long-term solution, (bc it perpetuates the washington model) but it's better than just sitting and doing nothing, or making a militia that just screams out to be named a terrorist group.

[xchrom]

7. for all that i'm anti-gun, a corner has been turned in the u.s.

and the neighborhood has become dangerous.
i think that your thread simply recognizes that threat -- and a way to deal with it.

personally i think it should be glbtqq only -- but that's just me.

that isn't to imply that it hasn't become dangerous -- or will become increasingly dangerous for liberals -- but straight liberals are not us.
and don't have the same investments in glbtqq goals and concerns.

the important thing here is that these men didn't misunderstand the hate language being tossed out there coming from all quaters regarding gay folk -- they heard correctly and acted accordingly. not unlike the murderers of abortion doctors, or t. mcveigh.

of course the people who spew this filth will be safe -- but these guys acted in accordence with the hate being directed toward their ears.

[murielm99]

8. Straight female here, with a gay daughter,

and a gay sibling.

I have some investment. If anyone hurt my kid, they better hope that the courts take care of punishing them, instead of me.

That said, GLBT people and their allies have to guard against vigilantism and militia-like behavior. It is too dangerous. It could lead to some gang of homophobes coming to the neighborhood and cleaning out the gay militia. They would get away with it, too. We don't need street wars.

It would be better if each gay person knew how to defend themself, and knew how to use a weapon of some kind.

But what I would really like to see are some lawsuits. If some fool of a fundie preacher incited his flock against gays, and some of them beat up or killed a gay person, sue the preacher. Sue Jimmy Swaggart for suggesting that it is all right to kill a gay man, and then making a lukewarm apology for his remarks. Sue Falwell and Robertson. Even if the lawsuits were unsuccessful, they would draw some attention to the hate speech. It might make some people change their thinking.

[readmoreoften]

9. The problem with this is it pits us against the 1st Amendment

And this really pulls people away from our cause. Many moderates who would generally sympathize with us don't understand the bullshit we go through and they don't believe that anyone but morons would be influenced by 'hate speech' (I hear this argument a lot, ridiculous as it is. Do these people think that morons don't exist? Do they think that someone with a low IQ and a gun can't kill me just as dead?)

Protecting oneself is always risky and I'm not so sure that relying on the legal system to protect us will make sense in the future. Our courts are on the verge of being stripped of church-state separation. If you look on www.theocracywatch.org you'll find that the Republican Party of Texas doesn't even believe that 'minor' assaults against gays/lesbians should even be entertained as a crime.

I doubt that a gay militia would ever be pro-active. What I mean by that, is that you wouldn't see us ever use our weapons to do anything except hold our ground and survive. I think that we may need to form self-defense units in the future. Right now I personally thing the best thing we can all do for ourselves is learn how to shoot and learn basic self-defense.

But I wouldn't mind seeing something like the Guardian Angels forming within our community.

[murielm99]

11. The Southern Poverty Law Center was able to help

put Metzger away in jail for inciting some of his people to murder a black man. I don't see why that couldn't be used against some of these religious types who rant against gays.

[sniffa]

14. that's more what i'm getting at

guardian angeL type thing. gangs formed in the issue of seLf defense can be very powerfuL in acheiving that goaL.

fighting hopefuLLy won't have to happen - the notion of a group to fight back (or even the fear of revenge) may even prevent some incidents.

i can hope.

[Lazpash]

34. I agree

That's one reason that _I_ am involved with the Pink Pistols. We accept straight members, USUALLY they are family members, sometimes they are just open minded folk.

We advocate taking personal responsibility for obtaining a CHL (where permitted) and making "queer bashing" a dangerous "sport"! My chapter has 4 trained instructors that can show new people the do's and don'ts of firearm handling as well as assist those better versed in handling firearms why they are consistently shooting a bit low and a bit to the left. (Or whatever problem they are having - that's just the most common problem ;)

[readmoreoften]

35. Is there a pink pistols chapter in NYC?

And does it cost $ to join?

[Lazpash]

40. YES!

And No, I'm pretty sure NONE of the PP chapters do dues. Though it would cost to shoot at the range. Not certain what THOSE costs run, HERE it's cheap (Ohio) The range we use, I have a lifetime membership, so it's just $4/30 minutes +$.20/target and that's also for my "guests" :) MOST places it's more like $7-15 for 1/2 hour.

[readmoreoften]

10. I also think this should be a queer community militia

but I do think p-flaggers should be welcome. I know some straight boys who would be proud to stand in front of our bars wearing a pink beret with rifles strapped to their backs.

[Behind the Aegis]

12. What we need

I feel we need a more positive view of ourselves. We need to stop viewing ourselves as the "perverts" that other think us to be. We also need to realize our lives, not just our rights, are on the line! I went to the last National Gay Pride rally in DC and it was a joke! It was more about the party than the politics! Don't get me wrong, I am all about a happening party, but we need some perspective.

But, you are right...we do need to fight back..not just in the halls of Congress, but in the streets as well!

[xchrom]

13. the way we approach politics is different -- we ''party''

that's how we face the difficulties life tosses our way -- with irony and and a party.

there's nothing wrong with that.

the political building goes on behind the scenes. where it counts.

[Ellen Forradalom]

15. You're not the only one to be thinking about self-defense

The Pink Pistols are not a militia, but take the view that in states with CCW laws, gays should arm themselves for self defense: http://www.pinkpistols.org/

Chicago used to have a group called the Pink Angels patrolling its Lakeview gay-bar area. I don't know if they are still around.

I also see online that in South Africa the Pink Panther Park Patrol protects gay men in parks: http://www.q.co.za/news/2000/05/000530-pinkpanthers.htm

Organizing an armed militia is more serious than either training people in self-defense or patrolling vulnerable areas. There is a lot of potential for negative consequences; these have to be considered carefully, alongside potential benefits.

[Blade42]

16. Learn to defend your self

Militias are a bad idea,and while groups like Pink Panthers may work in small areas They not going to be much help at home or work.The fact is people who attack us are not brave, just look at the fact that most times they attack in groups.Learn to fight back and hurt them and they with lose interest in attacking us.

[Blade42]

17. sad

In the Grrl club that JT and I go to some scumbag attacked/raped the bartender after closing time. He waited till everybody had gone home and she was cleaning up.So I have been giving the crash course in knife defense to the folks we know. So the next time someone trys that crap they with be in for a big surprise.

It's really hard to rape someone...when your tripping on your guts.

[readmoreoften]

21. Most of the time when people attack us it's in groups

you can't really defend yourself against a group unless you've got a firearm. Learning how to punch is a good start, but punching one of six guys won't help things much in most cases.

I'm not thinking of a militia so much as something like the Fruit of Islam. Maybe we could call ourselves Fruit of Fruits.

[sniffa]

22. hehe

the whoLe group attack thing is tough, but i think it can sometimes be done since they are cowards. as Long as i don't freeze/coLLapse in panic i'm going for the cLosest person's eyes, adam's appLe and crotch. i'm aLso biting a part of their face off. if i go down i'm maiming someone on the way.

screw punching.

[readmoreoften]

24. From personal experience...

Sometimes, freaking out is not a good choice when confronted by a violent crowd. I actually avoided a massive gang rape once. I worked one night as a dancer at a club that I had no idea was thoroughly, thoroughly corrupt. At the end of the night, the bar security (who were all high on god knows what) surrounded me for what was ostensibly going to turn into a gang rape. Around ten or fifteen customers were blocking the entrance so I couldn't leave. I sensed these guys had pulled this before and that the girls 'freaking out' was part and parcel of their fun. So I stayed calm and tried reasoning with them. That didn't work. I don't know how I came to the idea, but I started acting ridiculously... ooo ooo ooing like a chimp and making loud strange noises and weird faces. For some reason, I got lucky and this broke their trance. They couldn't help but laugh at me. After, they actually told the other customers to move out of the way and let me through.

My point is... sometimes freaking out is bad for survival and only gives your enemy what he wants. Clarity of mind is the best asset for survival. My other point is that we all *think* we know what we'll do until we get into a situation with these weirdos. The actual events usually catch us off guard and they don't have the emotional charge that we imagine.

Not freaking-out helped, but for the most part I was lucky. If a gang of people attack you, there is little you can do. I think that if roving security gangs are operating in gay areas it can along help. Are we really worried about a backlash? What, will sympathetic straights be less sympathetic if we defend ourselves? Are we really worried about violent homophobes becoming more violent by our gestures of self-protection?

People expect people to respect themselves and they RESPECT people who protect themselves. I think forming self-protection units will be a visual demonstration to the straight community of how bad it really can be for us, it will deter attacks, and it will give us strength as a community.

[Ellen Forradalom]

28. There is a similar story by Cookie Mueller

in her collection of stories, "Walking Through Clear Water in a Pool Painted Black." She and a girlfriend avoided rape by affecting mental illness. Their captors got weirded out by their strange behavior and freed them.

[readmoreoften]

29. It worked for me. I've also heard that feigning

religious fantacism works. I mean who wants to rape someone yelling "Holy Jesus! Lord I'm coming to ya!" with a huge smile on their face? I've also heard pissing yourself works.

[mongo]

44. I had a friend who would start having a loud argument with herself

whenever she was alone somewhere like a subway platform and felt uncomfortable with the people around her.

[Jamastiene]

32. If I ever got into some of the

situations I have been in before with the rage I have built up inside of me now, It'd be a bloodbath once I finally got started. If I ever got over my extreme fear first.

[Blade42]

33. Training not Rage

Training beats rage and fear everytime......Rage and fear are the tools your enemy works from.With the proper training you react before you have time to be afraid. Also training builds confidence and helps cut down the overreaction factor.Any self defense training should start with hand to hand unarmed and go from there.

[Lazpash]

37. Yup, "auto-pilot" is a wonderful thing

When I was attacked outside of Jack's (a lesbian bar) my martial arts training took over. I wasn't even thinking about WHAT to do, I was just doing it. Fortunately it was just 2 punk kids who had NO training one did have a bat though. But I was able to take it away from him. Had a pretty bad BRUISE from not "quite" doing that correctly on my forearm, but not so bad that it wasn't usable for the remainder of the fight.

I could be wrong, but I'd bet $$ that they never tried THAT again (at least not on a lesbian ;)

Wondering what they said about the cuts above their eyes, the fat lips, the black eye(s) though...

I had a fat lip and a bruised forearm... they landed a couple other "hits" but nothing that left any "sign" that they had. Not that I recall, anyway. I was just lucky it was only 2, usually they run in packs of 6 or more.

[ashmanonar]

25. a trained karateka can take down 6 people within a few seconds...

maybe encourage/subsidize self-defense training and/or karate training? learning how to really defend yourself may take a few years, but once you have the ability it's literally a part of you forever. you never forget how to do it. this could go along with the unionizing idea i posted elsewhere in the thread...

[readmoreoften]

27. I mean, that's nice and all, but is it realistic?

One gun can take down a trained karateka. Is someone in the community going to offer affordable martial arts lessons? We need to band together to protect our communities. Those who can...physically protect. Those who can't...emotionally support. We can all give to the community in our own way, but we all won't be able to be ninjas.

[ashmanonar]

30. it's realistic to at least unionize to an extent

and offer training in some sort of self-defense. i don't think everyone should do that training: not all are capable of it, others emotionally/developmentally couldn't handle it...but it's important that anyone who threatens someone for being gay realize that any one of these people could be a human weapon. it's psychological as well as physical protection.

you're right in saying that not everyone would be a "ninja" (which, by the way, is a false moniker: a karateka is in no way a ninja, we don't train countless hours in methods of killing: karate is self-defense) but that myth could help protect others, as well as the buddy system and the legal defense that could come from a closeknit gay association.

all it would take is one person taking out an entire group of bigots, and the myth would begin.

noone is proof against guns, and karate training is years of effort, which is why i'm completely anti-gun (you could put a ban on ownership and manufacture of guns, and you wouldn't find me mourning.) but a person trained to defend themselves has a far better chance of fighting off an attack successfully than someone who doesn't have any training and doesn't know how to defend themselves.

[Lazpash]

38. You watch too much TV ;)

MAYBE a trained fighter can deal w/2 or MAYBE 3... MAYBE. I was a brown belt in jujitsu when dealing w/the 2 punk kids, and it wasn't HARD exactly, but if there had been 3, I MIGHT have got my clocked cleaned but good, and they were NOT skilled fighters. Maybe I'd just have had more bumps/bruises... they had a bat, and numbers "for" them. I had training and calm ... still... one more unskilled body might have turned it for them.

[sniffa]

20. true about miLitias

but, they certainLy get noticed. i'm stiLL ticked and want to instiLL fear into these kinds of fucks.
maybe an organization or a gang then? i actuaLLy don't do guns, and am more a Less a pacifist - but i'LL gLadLy break with that for defense of myseLf or others.

[ashmanonar]

26. that's what pacifism is, fight only in defense of self or kin/friends.

and fight only when all options have failed.

i agree that an organization would get noticed. i just don't think that attention is the kind of attention you'd really want.

[Lazpash]

36. Yeah, I think Houston TX has some group too...

Problem is, while the Huston Area Pink Pistols would LIKE to help THEM, the PP members are NOT suicidal, and whatever that group is called, won't "allow" people "patrolling" to BE armed... I guess they are supposed to use intimidating words, maybe??? <rolleyes>

[swimmernsecretsea]

18. I've been thinking of some self-defense classes that are offered in SF

specifically for the LGBT community. These sorts of incidents were predicted, and, while I don't want to seem like I'm resigned to it, I'd much prefer we be better able to defend ourselves and our families.
When I was in college, we used to have campus escort service (no snickering, people) for women who had to traverse the campus in the evening. I think such things should be made available, perhaps on an informal buddy system.

[Jamastiene]

31. Oh yeah,

Anybody with experience? Please train me. I'd love nothing more than to be able to defend myself better and get the feeling that someone has my back. It'd be an amazing feeling, I think.

Thanks for starting this thread.

[Lazpash]

39. Where are you?

Jamastiene? I MIGHT be able to point you to some possible people if I knew where you were located. :) (At least state)

[Jamastiene]

42. I'm in NC n/t

[Lazpash]

41. Where did everyone go? n/t

[solinvictus]

43. Yes...

Not exclusively for the G/B/L/T community, but for anyone opposed to the Bushbots and the street thuggery they inspire. I've read this thread and it's been suggested that hand-to-hand martial arts is the answer. Martial arts training is part of the equation. A mugger carrying a humble .22 pistol trumps a martial artist due to the ability to wound or kill from a distance. I advocate pistols for carrying and shotguns for home defense. If the Freeper Inquisition starts, we all may need them to save ourselves and our country.

[blue morality]

45. sad but true

I'm against guns but I can't think of any other way to protect ourselves. It is clear we can't depend on the government or police for protection.
I've often thought of a defense group that would patrol and help protect. A group might be seen as negative, but we are just about out of choices. Our people keep being attached and dying. We have to do something.
As a friend of mine told me a few weeks ago, "I'm telling all my gay friends, get a gun. Get one now, because they are coming for us."

[Deja Q]

46. DAMN STRAIGHT!

Well, in the context of "About flippin' time" rather than damning heterosexuals, of course! :wow:

Not to make levity of the situation, but we have every right to defend ourselves against such vicious animals. And we need to for the sake of survival.