Could the passage of Prop 8 be a good thing?

[TechBear_Seattle]

Before you start flaming, consider:

Had Prop 8 failed, it would have been a good thing, no question. But the result would have been to preserve the status quo. Nothing would have changed within California, and nothing would have changed outside of California.

But look at what has happened. Marriage equality and the issue of putting basic civil rights up to a popular vote has transcended state boundaries; hundreds of thousands of people as far away as Massachussetts, New York, the District of Columbia, even Atlanta are participating in rallies to protest this injustice. Amending state constitutions to enshrine bigotry is no longer a state matter, but a national matter, and there is no way that the federal courts can continue to shrug this off as "something local."

Passage of Prop 8 has also brought a very bright media spotlight on how the LDS and Roman Catholic churches actively ordered members to participate in a partisan fashion and claiming that their everlasting salvation was in grave danger if they did not actively participate on the "correct" side of the issue. Had Prop 8 failed, this institutionalized ugliness would have remained hidden and continued to poison the body politic.

Maybe my curmudgeon setting is temporarily on the fritz, but I am feeling oddly optimistic that, in the end, the success of the Yes on 8 campaign will end up being the downfall of 8 and every other attempt to ban same-sex couples from full, equal marriage.

[HughMoran]

1. You're an optimist

So am I, so I hope your logic proves to be correct.

[TygrBright]

2. That was my point here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x399361

I really do think it is the beginning of the end.

determinedly,

Bright

[tavalon]

8. Actually, I said on November 5th that the fundies won a battle, but the war

is already over and they've lost. What I meant was that the flow of our culture is towards the acceptance and the equality of gays, not that we are already there.

The supreme irony is that the fundy whackadoos may well have sped the process up massively. We may have marriage and other equality for gays years before we might have - because of the mormons! Laugh out loud funny.

[TommyO]

3. It has sparked a lot of activism that a "no on 8" vote would haven't.

I am cautiously optimistic that this is a modern-day Stonewall.

[AntiFascist]

4. There are arguably good things happening due to the passage of Prop. 8...

for one thing, a lot of people are becoming politically active about Civil Rights who may not have cared as much before.

But, the status quo changed radically back in July with the CA marriage ruling. This was much more than just granting gays and lesbians the right to marry, as has happened in other states, it also set some extremely important legal precedents: gays and lesbians are now considered a protected minority group on par with other minority groups, and marriage is considered a Fundamental Right of all Californians (not a faux marriage, but a real loving relationship). For Prop 8 to attempt to selectively undo the right to marriage would mean to undo equal protection for all minorities. This is a real constitutional crisis, and it is not a good thing that it ever happened.

[Karenina]

11. The courts could make it a two-fer!

It should NOT have happened and MUST NOT again. I'm optimistic!

[AntiFascist]

14. That's true!

If the Supreme Court can stay and/or overturn Prop 8 quickly, AND the media can correctly convey its reasons for doing so (not as "activist judges") THEN it would be a good thing overall. If there is no stay, and the case for overturning Prop 8 drags on, then they are preventing gays and lesbians from enjoying the privilege that my partner and I enjoyed.

[tblue]

5. Someday, in retrospect, we will see it that way,

that it, more than we imagined, galvanized opposition to this prejudice.

[mondo joe]

6. I would like to say I agree. Instead I will say Kinehora. NT

[Eryemil]

7. I think so. The national movement we're seeing now would not have happened otherwise

This will help all GLBT Americans as opposed to just Californians

[tavalon]

9. I think it will

As well, hopefully gay folks will realize that there are more of us who stand in solidarity with them than there are bigots who stand against them.

[DarkTirade]

10. I don't know whether you're right or not... but I can damned well hope you are.

:)

[RedLetterRev]

12. One battle well-fought

and not yet over, but they are certainly on notice. As I posted in another thread, I really think their goal was to see if they could successfully remove any existing civil right from a class of people. They thought they had picked on the most defenseless, voiceless, and frightened class of people, a group who was so in the shadows that we wouldn't come forth to defend ourselves.

That's what they get for living in fundyland, where hatred insulates them from reality. Out here in the real world, we live our lives. They reach out and step on our toe, we stomp on their whole foot, hard.

Aside from being a cowardly act of selecting the weakest to pick on, I really think that they believe if they can successfully remove an existing civil right from any class of people, they can begin removing all civil rights from everyone until they've reached their goal of overthrowing the US constitution and installing their dreamed-of theocracy. Not on my watch. From everything I was ever taught, that makes them treasonous bastards, fit for a short rope and a tall tree. Let 'em explain their hatred and rage at the Pearly Gates and see what accommodations it gets them.

[Psyop Samurai]

13. great post... k&r... /nt

[bluedawg12]

15. Yup! Well said.

K&R

[yardwork]

16. I think it is a water-shed event.

I think it was Alexis de Tocqueville who observed that people will put up with a lot, but if things get a little better, and then get bad again, it can spark a revolution.

Many states have passed anti-gay laws, including three other states this past election day. But California is the only state where a right that had previously been given to gay people - the right of marriage - was taken away.

[Jamastiene]

17. I hope you are right.

Peace.

[trashcanistanista]

18. I also believe as you do, that it can be a good thing and

so far is proving to be. I think that the level of political engagement in this country is way up. I think that in California people are stepping up to the plate for civil rights and I am seeing in my personal life in a red area, that I am able to actually have dialog about gay marriage, civil rights and religious beliefs and winning people over. In my heart I still can't believe people voted to pass this in my state. It will be undone I'm hoping by June, 2009 if not sooner. I am very optimistic that it will be finally put to rest and cause shockwaves across the rest of the country and they will follow in our footsteps.

[Mike 03]

19. I had this same thought but was afraid to post it.

I just think a lot of people who come from very liberal backgrounds like me take certain things for granted, such as the defeat of Prop 8. Or even though we oppose and vote against discriminatory legislation or propositions, we don't pay as much attention as we should, or imagine what it is like to be in someone else's shoes. I think that would have continued had these Gay Marriage bans been defeated, particularly the one in California. That it passed was so shocking, and the outpouring and intensity of the pain it caused the GLBT community was so great and heart wrenching that I think it slapped a lot of people into realizing this is a very serious issue affecting human beings we know and care about. It is no long possible to call one's self a liberal Democrat and not stand up on this issue.

This line was drawn, I think, because of the shock and disaster of the passage of Prop 8. As hideous as this is, I think it will draw people from all corners of the country to stand up on this once and for all.

[beyurslf]

20. No. Either way, pass or fail, this proposition was the spark that will start the flame of the

battles in 2010 and 2012. We're a long way from done in our fight.