Advice from a person of faith

[Veritas_et_Aequitas]

GBLT DUers and other enemies of Proposition 8:

I cannot imagine how you must feel over the passage of proposition 8, how betrayed by your fellow Californians and Democrats you must feel, nor how righteously angry you are with the results. However, I do sympathize with you and hope you would allow me to give my two cents about how to deal with my coreligionists and other people of faith who voted in favor of proposition 8 (and how we got same-sex marriage protected in Massachusetts).

First of all, I would like to remind you that the parties you are combating are neither fully rational nor unified. While protests, boycotts, and postcard campaigns are great ways to combat unjust decisions made by the government or by corporations, I don't think it will work on churches. Governments and corporations must in one way or another bend to the will of citizens/consumers because careers and livelihoods are on the line. With a church, however, this model doesn't hold. Many religions, particularly the Christian denominations you are dealing with, have a pretty strong us-v-them dichotomy. By going after them economically, you will probably not weaken there resolve, but rather strengthen it via a persecution complex. And since Christianity is a religion that raises persecution to an ideal (we're all raised on stories of the martyrs), they will take it as a sign they're doing God's work. Failing that, you run the risk of alienating those people of faith who are your supporters, even if they do it quietly in a voting booth.

The battle to defeat proposition 8 must take place in the hearts and minds of Californians. You must hammer home the message that all people in our country are equals (recall the Constitution and Declaration of Independence). It is not fair or right that one segment of the population be denied rights granted to every other. I know you all have been doing that for a long time now, but please do not give up! Work to persuade people to your side. Write letters to the editor, get on the radio or TV, hold public discussions (hell, even invite your opponents. They might reveal themselves to be hypocrites while there), and show them that homosexuals are normal people and not the leather-clad Lotharios your opponents make you out to be. Bombard them with information. I know this battle can be won.

I'd be willing to bed that a lot of pew-sitters vote the way their churches tell them to because they don't have the right information. In Massachusetts the Catholic Church railed hard against same-sex marriage, yet it was legalized (in a primarily Catholic state, I should add). What tipped the votes of a number of Catholics and other Christians I know was that they were convinced by letters to the editor, radio and television programs, and the like that reminded them that homosexuals are human beings deserving of all the same rights straight people have.

That's my 2 cents. Take it for what it's worth.

[peruban]

1. Floridian here with the same issue.

Though the the prop 8 race was close, only 4% difference, we lost our opposition to the amendment against gay marriage by a whopping 22%. In fact, I've mentioned this on another thread that every county passed the ban except Monroe county. The Keys vote with the Monroe district. So there we go.

Ultimately, I think this issue will be decided by the supreme court as a matter of denying the pursuit happiness to a group of people.

[madmadmad]

2. i hear you and agree in many ways

our opponents are NOT rational, but at this point, neither are we. we are pissed off, and we are not going to take it any more. we can make nice later, and write letters to the editor and follow all the paths we've been following towards acceptance, later. right now we have anger- anger that needs to be channeled- and we are going to use it to send a loud and clear signal that the mormons can't funnel 20 million dollars of out of state money into rewriting the california state constitution to take away rights from a minority group. we need to make them think twice before poking this hornets nest again. it isn't right, and it isn't the american way. we PROTECT rights, not repeal them.

we fight this battle not only for california but for connecticut, massachusetts, and any other state with legal gay marriage on the books, because remember- we in california had the right to marry for 5 months before it was stolen from us, and they will be coming after those other states next. they simply aren't going to stop with rewriting the law in california- there would be no point in that for them- this is an all or nothing game. so mark my words, it's those other states next, and after that, whatever is next on their regressive religious agenda.

so yes, we are going to be angry and loud and in your face right now. we are going to protest in the streets to protect the rights of all, from the tyranny of religion, just like our fore-fathers did. funny thing is, we are fighting for the rights of mormons too- what if a primarily southern baptist state decided to vote on banning mormon weddings? these groups may be allied now, but they fundamentally disagree on many things, so their ungodly alliance is sure not to last- and the minority religion in any state could be voted out of their rights just as easily. our fight is for the rights of all, not just we gays- we fight those that want to turn the united states of america from a constitution-based democratic republic, to a bible-based theocratic republic. the fight is that fundamentally important.

[peruban]

4. States have traditionally flexed their muscles in the face of the federals.

I'm a religious person but I disagree with my faith legislating doctrine. It's not only unconstitutional, but the fact that the tables could be turned just as arbitrarily to ban straight marriages is preposterous. I've actually heard "Christians" say that allowing gay marriage will inevitably lead to inter species marriage. You got that? Gay marriage leads to bestiality!?!?

I sympathize with your plight, the angry, foaming at the mouth, and rabidness of the opposition is reminiscent of the days of segregation.

That said, the more states that pass these restrictions on marriage, the more likely the issue will be brought before the supreme court - of which Obama will be in a position to assign new justices. Then we will have a marriage/anti-civil rights amendment.

It still won't change much right away, but as it becomes a part of the U.S. consciousness things will change. Just as civil liberties have always won out in the end, so marriage will become defined by a legal partnership between two consenting adults.

Don't forget these inspiring facts:

One hundred years ago women could not vote, one hundred and fifty years ago African Americans were owned by slave handlers, and there was time when you could go to war, kill, and die for your country but you couldn't drink alcohol, or even vote unless you were 21 or older.

The times they are a-changing.

[Eryemil]

3. This issue will ultimately be decided by the supreme court in the end

No amount of begging will be enough and I for one am done turning the other cheek.

[ColoradoMagician]

5. We should also be nice to criminals who steal from us,

Maybe they won't steal from us again.


Not all self defense is pretty, but it still self defense. We are tired of having this fight constantly brought to our doorstep.

That's my gay 2 cents.

[RedLetterRev]

6. Negotiating, forbearance, forgiveness, dialogue

have gotten me and mine nowhere. These are supposed to be two-way streets and so far, most -- and I will not say all -- but most churches that have so adamantly preached intolerance and bigotry have been absolutely unwilling to listen or modify their positions in any way. To win a heart and mind, those hearts and mind must be willing at least to listen. In my experience, thus far they have not -- stubbornly have not.

What's so hard about live and let live? Me and mine were quietly living our own lives, yet they wanted to step in the middle of it, to condemn, to stir trouble where none had been, to bring unrest and ill feelings where none previously existed. It seems to me that if anyone needs to open their hearts and minds, it would be the pew-sitters. The information is there; it has long been available, yet there is none so blind as the one who actively refuses to see.

Every time I try to offer the viewpoint like "you could live and work beside a gay person for a decade or two and never realize it" you can see the mental shutdown and entrenchment for an argument. When I say "gayness isn't a choice; science has amply demonstrated it" you can watch the gears grind and sparks fly and the same crap come back.

If they're demonstrably unwilling to listen, how, pray tell, are we supposed to remain patient whilst they continue to run us over and run us over and run us over with the same, tired memes they're taught from the pulpit. I'm not denying your point; I believe that dialogue is necessary -- but dialogue has a root prefix "di" meaning "two".

The GLBTQ community cannot continue to shoulder all the talking and listening alone. The churches must be willing to do their share of listening, too. So far, sadly, many have not.

This is in no way an attack or flame. This is what my experience is and what it feels like from here. When we try and try, and the result is constantly being shut out or shut down, how are we supposed to breach the wall? The only thing left against the onslaught is to push back.

[Ex Lurker]

7. IMHO the OP isn't saying that you shouldn't do any of this

but that it may not work. Maybe it will against the mormons, because they're a relatively small group. But it will affect the baptists very little. They simply don't care what gay people think, and their power base is in the deep red states. You can't do much to them economically.