Vaccination may be Associated with Autoimmune Diseases

[mhatrw]

www.ima.org.il/imaj/ar04jul-12.pdf

[truedelphi]

1. Oh boy. I'm now ducking, covering and hiding under a big

Bowl of :popcorn:

Logic, statistics and science don't matter. If you Post anything on DU that is even remotely critical of vaccines, you are called a bubonic plague spreading piece of polio contaminated She-ite!

[virgogal]

2. The key words are at the end of the 1st sentence-----"it is quite rare"

[FreakinDJ]

3. Not Again - Since when was Institute for the Musical Arts a Health Official

Junk Science = Bull Shit

[LeftishBrit]

8. To be fair, it's actually in this case the Israeli Medical Association.

However, most doctors don't think that vaccines are a cause of auto-immune disorders; though it *is* possible that some vaccines are less safe for people who already have such disordes. As someone who myself has a disorder thought likely to be autoimmune, I follow literature on this subject.

[FreakinDJ]

9. Check the URL Einstein

[laconicsax]

11. www.ima.org.il is the Israeli Medical Association, ima.org is the Institute for the Musical Arts.

[LeftishBrit]

28. I did.

And by the way I am *against* all the anti-vaccine ideology that keeps recurring on the forum.

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[xchrom]

4. unrec

[mhatrw]

15. what a surprise!

It doesn't matter how reasonable or scientific the discussion is.

If it breathes a word against vaccines, it's thoughtcrime!

[HuckleB]

17. "Thoughtcrime!" "Reasonable."

:rofl:

[mhatrw]

19. Do you agree with the conclusions of the OP or not?

[HuckleB]

21. I finally learned to refrain from wasting my time on your anti-vaccine...

... spam. (I'm sure this will be deleted, but there is nothing about that is not true, so there is no real reason to delete it.)

But I do love a good laugh.

:rofl:

[laconicsax]

5. !

:rofl:

A position piece from a debate? Nice sleuthing there.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

6. Infections are more associated with autoimmunity than anything else including

vaccines.

[mhatrw]

16. Infections only occur when you randomly get exposed to them.

Vaccines deliberately expose healthy people to a battery of weakened viruses and bacteria, many that the average person's chances of getting exposed to otherwise are not high.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

20. The human race carries some 400 virus strains... none of us are immune.

http://www.livescience.com/topics/virus/


A virus is defined as any of a various number of submicroscopic parasites that can infect any animal, plant or bacteria and often lead to very serious or even deadly diseases. A virus consists of a core of RNA or DNA, generally surrounded by a protein, lipid or glycoprotein coat, or some combination of the three. No virus can replicate without the help of a host cell, and though they can be spread, viruses lack the ability of self-reproduction and are not always considered to be living organisms in the regular sense. Some of the most common or best known viruses include the human immunodeficiency virus (HIV), which is the virus that causes AIDS, the herpes simplex virus, which causes cold sores, smallpox, multiple sclerosis, and the human papilloma virus, now believed to be a leading cause of cervical cancer in adult women. The common human cold is also caused by a virus. Since a great deal of mystery still surrounds the origins of most modern viruses, ways to cure these viruses and the diseases they cause are still in the very early stages of development.

[mhatrw]

22. I never implied that anyone was immune from viruses.

smh

[sharp_stick]

7. Naw that's the anal probing

when you're vaccinated you forget that they stuck a probe up your ass, it's the best way to figure out what your thoughts are.

[trotsky]

10. The live measles, mumps, and rubella viruses are known to provoke an autoimmune response.

Take your chances with the wild full-strength virus if you want!

[laconicsax]

12. At least it doesn't have TOXINS like MERCURY and ALUMINUM!

:hide:

[EvolveOrConvolve]

14. So should vaccines be pulled from production?

Where are you going with this?

[mhatrw]

18. Read the OP. I agree with it. I advocate further study on the links between

patients' genetic profiles and the chances of adverse vaccine-related complications.

The world of medical science is not always all black or all white.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

23. Medical science isn't always black or white

But it often is very much black or white. Were we to investigate every potentiality for every treatment, there wouldn't be any treatments at all for anything. Medical Science would end up spending far more resources looking into side-effect XYZ that may only occur once in 2 million humans. Unfortunately, and this may sound cruel, it's more important to protect the 1,999,999 humans who aren't effected than the 1 who is.

[mhatrw]

24. OK, so if vaccines disable 1 out of a million people for life, tough shit?

How about trying to find out why? How about trying to find out who is most likely to be this 1 in a million victim?

If it is your own kid, do you simply sacrifice his or her life to the great vaccine diety? Or would you rather try to get some answers to try to prevent this from happening to your next kid or anyone else?

[laconicsax]

25. ...and you stumble on the other thing you have wrong.

1:1,000,000 doesn't mean that one person out of one million is guaranteed to experience the unlikely event.

You claim to teach probability; you should know why, "well, what if you're the one?" isn't a valid argument.

[mhatrw]

26. Who ever claimed that?

1:1,000,000 means that there is greater than a 50% chance that at least one person out of every 693,147 will experience the unlikely event.

1 - (999,999/1,000,000)^693,147 = 50.0%

1:1,000,000 means that there is greater than a 63% chance that at least one person out of every million will experience the unlikely event.

1 - (999,999/1,000,000)^1,000,000 = 63.2%

1:1,000,000 means that there is greater than a 95% chance that at least one person out of every three million will experience the unlikely event.

1 - (999,999/1,000,000)^3,000,000 = 95.0%

Who ever claimed otherwise?

"Well, what if you're the one?" is a perfectly valid argument when it comes to expressing why we should do studies to help reduce the risks of permanent vaccine induced disabilities. Why are you against such studies?

[laconicsax]

29. You did:

How about trying to find out why? How about trying to find out who is most likely to be this 1 in a million victim?

If it is your own kid, do you simply sacrifice his or her life to the great vaccine diety? Or would you rather try to get some answers to try to prevent this from happening to your next kid or anyone else?

Your whole position hinges on the incorrect assumption that 1:1,000,000 means that one out of every million WILL experience the adverse reaction.

You even showed why it's an incorrect assumption:

1:1,000,000 means that there is greater than a 63% chance that at least one person out of every million will experience the unlikely event.

1 - (999,999/1,000,000)^1,000,000 = 63.2%

Even a 95% chance is no guarantee--there's a 99.9% chance that ten consecutive coin flips will come up tails at least once, but here's a video of ten heads in a row: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1uJD1O3L08

So, while unlikely events do happen, the odds don't predict exactly when or how often they will. "What if you're the one" is an invalid argument.

Also, you incorrectly assume that I'm against immunological research.

[mhatrw]

31. My God, this is a foolish tangent.

If there is a one in a million chance of, say, getting hit be lightning this year, what are the chances that at least one out of ten million people will be hit by lightning?

1 - (999999/1000000)^10000000 = 0.9999546 = 99.99546%

That's approaching unity. The odds of having all ten million people emerge unscathed are less than the odds of flipping a heads 11 times in row.

If there is a one in a million chance of, say, getting hit be lightning this year, what are the chances that at least one out of twenty million people will be hit by lightning?

1 - (999999/1000000)^20000000 = 0.9999999979 = 99.99999979

That's effectively unity. The odds of having all twenty million people emerge unscathed are less than the odds of flipping a heads 28 times in row.

Produce that video for us when you get a chance.

[LeftishBrit]

27. Do you drive? Do you cross roads? Do you ever drink alcohol? Do you take aspirin?

All of these come with a lot more risks than vaccines.

We should seek to reduce the side effects of vaccines, and all medications, as much as possible. But what about the risks of NOT vaccinating?

What if it's your own kid who dies or is seriously disabled from a preventable disease? Do you simply sacrifice his or her life to the great anti-vaccine deity? (The last sentence is not how I usually talk, but it's responding to your similar sentence.)

[mhatrw]

32. Read the OP.

Do you agree or disagree with it?

Who said anything about not getting vaccines?

[EvolveOrConvolve]

30. I would rather

research go to more productive avenues. Seeking to find the mysterious reason of that 1 in 1 million (or 1 in 10 million or 1 in 100 million) side effect simply isn't a fruitful exercise, especially if the alleged side effect can't even be concretely identified as having an origin in a vaccine (see Wakefield and company). The amount of time and money wasted on these wild goose chases are resources that could have gone to search for real answers.

What is implied in a lot of your posts is:
1. There may be XYZ effect from Vaccine A
2. We can't verify the XYZ effect as having a causal relationship with Vaccine A but...
3. science should research it just in case...
4. and until then we should seriously reconsider vaccinations

You can argue all you want that you're for "vaccine safety" or "further research" or against "big pharma", but the implicit tone of your posts is strongly against vaccines. I've seen your links to right-wing sources, and your credibility suffers because of it.

[mhatrw]

33. Good for you.

You should go far in our corpocracy.

[LeftishBrit]

37. And you should go far in right-libertarian politics and join Ron Paul's campaign team

No, that wasn't a fair comment; but neither was yours.

Pro-vaccine does NOT mean pro-Pharma or pro-corpocracy, any more than anti-vaccine always means right-libertarian. If one form of guilt by association is unfair, so is the other.

[mhatrw]

39. LOL. I was responding the general philosophy that trying to make products

that are already reasonably safe for the vast majority far safer for a small minority can be equated to a worthless wild goose chase. Vaccination per se had nothing to do with my commentary.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

43. Boy, that was helpful

Nice chatting with you.

[trotsky]

34. What do you think the odds are of being harmed from measles, mumps, rubella, or polio?

How about HiB?

If "1 in a million" is an unacceptable risk for you, well by golly you should be vaccination's #1 advocate because compared to those diseases and others, vaccination risks are NOTHING.

[mhatrw]

35. When have I ever argued against these vaccinations?

Read the OP. Do you agree or disagree with it?

[trotsky]

36. Read my response above. Do you agree or disagree with it?

That the diseases vaccines protect us against can ALSO cause an auto-immune reaction.

Because if you agree, then your OP is rather meaningless unless you can show that the occurrence of a demonstrated auto-immune condition from a vaccine is HIGHER than the disease it prevents.

Can you?

[mhatrw]

38. It seems to me that you are forgetting how vaccines protect against diseases.

Hint: It's by giving everyone, en masse, a little bit of the very same diseases that you seem so concerned might cause auto-immune reactions.

But, sure it is possible that the weakened versions of the diseases, even when distributed to everyone, result in a lower incidence of overall autoimmune disease than would the diseases themselves were they not protected against through vaccination. I fully endorse any studies that attempt to quantify these relative risks.

The overriding principle of medicine is do no harm. If vaccinations can cause severe, life-long auto-immune diseases in even just 1 in a million doses, we really need to fund some research into finding out just who is at most risk and why. Can we at least come to some common ground here?

[trotsky]

40. It seems to me you aren't aware how every vaccine works.

Some are live virus, some are not. Some are weakened virus. Some are virus particles. Some aren't virus-related at all but protect us from dangerous toxins made by bacteria (tetanus, for example).

When you understand that "VACCINATION" is not one monolithic way of dealing with diseases and illnesses, perhaps we can have a meaningful chat.

If vaccinations can cause severe, life-long auto-immune diseases in even just 1 in a million doses

Do they? You have provided no evidence that they do.

[mhatrw]

41. I should have known it was useless to actually try to discuss anything with you reasonably.

Good-bye.

[trotsky]

42. Yes, because to you "reasonably" means...

that I must consider your wild speculation just as valid as actual scientific data. Yep, it's useless to try and discuss that with me.