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bry2k Donating Member (18 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-02-08 09:09 PM
Original message
Taxes & Social Security
Hi folks. I don't post here much...mostly I just read. So today I received a chain email (below) from a friend of mine (she's 73), and rather than spend all my time fact checking it myself, I thought what better way to find out than to post it here and see what everybody has to say about it. Never mind the Bush vs Clinton and Democrat vs Republican slant. I'm not posting this to start a partisan debate. Just curious to read what people know about the "facts" presented in the email, particularly the stuff related to social security. Anyone willing to take a crack at this and back up the points presented or knock them down? And no, I'm not a Republican trying to start trouble on the DU. Just an old-fashioned Democrat pretty much fed up with both parties. PS - I'll be out of town for five days so I won't be able to read this again until probably next Wednesday. Thanks!



Whether you are a Democrat, Republican or Independent.... These are the facts .....

Taxes under Clinton 1999 Taxes under Bush 2008

Single making 30K - tax $8,400 Single making 30K - tax $4,500

Single making 50K - tax $14,000 Single making 50K - tax $12,500

Single making 75K - tax $23, 250 Single making 75K - tax $18,750

Married making 60K - tax $16,800 Married making 60K- tax $9,000

Married making 75K - tax $21,000 Married making 75K - tax $18,750

Married making 125K - tax $38,750 Married making 125K - tax $31,250


If you want to know just how effective the mainstream media is, it is amazing how many people that fall into the categories above think Bush is screwing them and Bill Clinton was the greatest President ever. If ANY democrat is elected, ALL of them say they will repeal the Bush tax cuts and a good portion of the people that fall into the categories above can't wait for it to happen. This is like the movie The Sting with Paul Newman; you scam somebody out of some money and they don't even know what happened.


Your Social Security

Just in case some of you young whippersnappers (& some older ones) didn't know this. It's easy to check out, if you don't believe it. Be sure and show it to your kids. They need a little history lesson on what's what and it doesn't matter whether you are Democrat or Republican. Facts are Facts!!!


Franklin Roosevelt, a Democrat, introduced the Social Security (FICA) Program. He promised:

1.) That participation in the Program would be Completely voluntary,

2.) That the participants would only have to pay 1% of the first $1,400 of their annual Incomes into the Program,

3.) That the money the participants elected to put into the Program would be deductible from their income for tax purposes each year,

4.) That the money the participants put into the independent "Trust Fund" rather than into the general operating fund, and therefore, would only be used to fund the Social Security Retirement Program, and no other Gov ernment program, and,

5.) That the annuity payments to the retirees would never be taxed as income.

Since many of us have paid into FICA for years and are now receiving a Social Security check every month -- and then finding that we are getting taxed on 85% of the money we paid to the Federal government to "put away" -- you may be interested in the following:

-------------------------------------------------------------

Q: Which Political Party took Social Security from the independent "Trust Fund" and put it into the general fund so that Congress could spend it?

A: It was Lyndon Johnson and the democrat-controlled House and Senate.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Q: Which Political Party eliminated the income tax deduction for Social Security (FICA) withholding?

A: The Democrat Party.

---------------------------------------------------------------------- -

Q: Which Political Party started taxing Social Security annuities?

A: The Democrat Party, with Al Gore casting the "tie-breaking" deciding vote as President of the Senate, while he was Vice President of the U S.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Q: Which Political Party decided to start giving annuity payments to immigrants?

A: Jimmy Carter and the Democrat Party. Immigrants moved into this country, and at age 65, began to receive Social Security payments! The Democrat Party gave these payments to them, even though they never paid a dime into it!

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Then, after violating the original contract (FICA), the Democrats turn around and tell you that the Republicans want to take your Social Security away!

And the worst part about it is uninformed citizens believe it!

If enough people receive this, maybe a seed of awareness will be planted and maybe changes will evolve. Maybe not; some Democrats are awfully sure of what isn't so.

But it's worth a try. How many people can YOU send this to?

Actions speak louder than bumper stickers.

AND CONGRESS GIVES THEMSELVES 100% RETIREMENT FOR ONLY SERVING ONE TERM!!!

A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have. - Thomas Jefferson
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Tangerine LaBamba Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-02-08 09:11 PM
Response to Original message
1. There's something weird about this post
Of course, the factual errors can be overlooked.

But, "... the Democrat (sic) Party..."?

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bry2k Donating Member (18 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-02-08 09:15 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. I didn't write that part
That's the email I was forwarded. Don't know who wrote it. My intentions for posting it are pure. Curious about some of the "facts" presented and whether they are true or not.
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gristy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-02-08 09:15 PM
Response to Original message
3. Sure, no problem. I'll work on this over the weekend.
I should have everything validated or refuted by the time you get back. Have a great trip!



lol
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bronxiteforever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-02-08 09:17 PM
Response to Original message
4. I know you voted for Shrub
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bry2k Donating Member (18 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-02-08 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Actually, no, I didn't...
But whatever. That's why I rarely post here. :-( It seems whenever someone asks a sincere probing question about their party on the DU, they got shot down by paranoid people who think they're Republicans. If the "facts" in that email aren't true, I'd like to reply to my friend with solid ground to stand on. I really don't know the history of social security legislation, but I will study it more. Just figured many here know a lot more about it than I do. Ok, that's all for now.
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bronxiteforever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-02-08 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Because from checking your previous posts you seem to be proud of your
historical knowledge-seems strange that you need other people to fact check and your powers would suddenly fail in that department
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Tangerine LaBamba Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-02-08 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. What was your question?
I don't see any question in your post. I just see a cut-and-copy post, obviously one of those convoluted, idiotic things that aren't worthy of a response.

Whoever sent you that isn't interested in your attempted refutation, believe me.

Good luck with your research.
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bry2k Donating Member (18 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-02-08 09:51 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. My question was plain as day...
"Anyone willing to take a crack at this and back up the points presented or knock them down?"

And yes, I have the skills to research it and I intend to. Its just a subject I never studied much of the legislative history on. I thought I might get a head start from some informed DU'ers. Silly me perhaps. Re my friend who sent the email, yes she is open to debate. She forwards all kinds of stuff to me, mostly about the war, and believe me, I have changed her mind or at least convinced her to think more about many issues.

Alright, I gotta pack...maybe I should have waited to start this thread until next week, but that email stirred me up.
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RedEarth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-02-08 09:51 PM
Response to Original message
8. Debunking Myths:...here is what Snopes and Social Security has to say about this misinformation
Edited on Fri May-02-08 09:54 PM by RedEarth
http://www.snopes.com/politics/taxes/clinton-bush.asp

http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog/2008/03/another-tax-urb.html

FAQs
Debunking Some Internet Myths- Part 2



MYTHS AND MISINFORMATION ABOUT SOCIAL SECURITY- Part 2

Myths and misstatements of fact frequently circulate on the Internet, in email and on websites, and are repeated in endless loops of misinformation. One common set of such misinformation involves a series of questions about the history of the Social Security system.


One Common Form of the Questions:

Q1: Which political party took Social Security from the independent trust fund and put it into the general fund so that Congress could spend it?

Q2: Which political party eliminated the income tax deduction for Social Security (FICA) withholding?

Q3: Which political party started taxing Social Security annuities?

Q4: Which political party increased the taxes on Social Security annuities?

Q5: Which political party decided to start giving annuity payments to immigrants?




THE CORRECT ANSWERS TO THE FIVE QUESTIONS

Q1. Which political party took Social Security from the independent trust fund and put it into the general fund so that Congress could spend it?

A1: There has never been any change in the way the Social Security program is financed or the way that Social Security payroll taxes are used by the federal government. The Social Security Trust Fund was created in 1939 as part of the Amendments enacted in that year. From its inception, the Trust Fund has always worked the same way. The Social Security Trust Fund has never been "put into the general fund of the government."

Most likely this question comes from a confusion between the financing of the Social Security program and the way the Social Security Trust Fund is treated in federal budget accounting. Starting in 1969 (due to action by the Johnson Administration in 1968) the transactions to the Trust Fund were included in what is known as the "unified budget." This means that every function of the federal government is included in a single budget. This is sometimes described by saying that the Social Security Trust Funds are "on-budget." This budget treatment of the Social Security Trust Fund continued until 1990 when the Trust Funds were again taken "off-budget." This means only that they are shown as a separate account in the federal budget. But whether the Trust Funds are "on-budget" or "off-budget" is primarily a question of accounting practices--it has no affect on the actual operations of the Trust Fund itself.



Q2: Which political party eliminated the income tax deduction for Social Security (FICA) withholding?

A2: There was never any provision of law making the Social Security taxes paid by employees deductible for income tax purposes. In fact, the 1935 law expressly forbid this idea, in Section 803 of Title VIII.

(The text of Title VIII. can be found elsewhere on our website.)



Q3. Which political party started taxing Social Security annuities?

A3. The taxation of Social Security began in 1984 following passage of a set of Amendments in 1983, which were signed into law by President Reagan in April 1983. These amendments passed the Congress in 1983 on an overwhelmingly bi-partisan vote.

The basic rule put in place was that up to 50% of Social Security benefits could be added to taxable income, if the taxpayer's total income exceeded certain thresholds.

The taxation of benefits was a proposal which came from the Greenspan Commission appointed by President Reagan and chaired by Alan Greenspan, who is presently serving as Chairman of the Federal Reserve.

The full text of the Greenspan Commission report is available on our website.

President's Reagan's signing statement for the 1983 Amendments can also be found on our website.

A detailed explanation of the provisions of the 1983 law is also available on the website.



Q4. Which political party increased the taxes on Social Security annuities?

A4. In 1993, legislation was enacted which had the effect of increasing the tax put in place under the 1983 law. It raised from 50% to 85% the portion of Social Security benefits subject to taxation; but the increased percentage only applied to "higher income" beneficiaries. Beneficiaries of modest incomes might still be subject to the 50% rate, or to no taxation at all, depending on their overall taxable income.

This change in the tax rate was one provision in a massive Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act (OBRA) passed that year. The OBRA 1993 legislation was deadlocked in the Senate on a tie vote of 50-50 and Vice President Al Gore cast the deciding vote in favor of passage. President Clinton signed the bill into law on August 10, 1993.

(You can find a brief historical summary of the development of taxation of Social Security benefits on the Social Security website.)



Q5. Which political party decided to start giving annuity payments to immigrants?

A5. Neither immigrants nor anyone else is able to collect Social Security benefits without someone paying Social Security payroll taxes into the system. The conditions under which Social Security benefits are payable, and to whom, can be found in the pamphlets available on our website.

The question confuses the Supplemental Security Income (SSI) program with Social Security. SSI is a federal welfare program and no contributions, from immigrants or citizens or anyone else, is required for eligibility. Under certain conditions, immigrants can qualify for SSI benefits. The SSI program was an initiative of the Nixon Administration and was signed into law by President Nixon on October 30, 1972.

An explanation of the basics of Social Security, and the distinction between Social Security and SSI, can be found on the Social Security website.


http://www.ssa.gov/history/InternetMyths2.html


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bry2k Donating Member (18 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-02-08 09:55 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. Thanks RedEarth...
I completely forgot about Snopes. Exactly the kind of info I was hoping someone would share. I will forward that link. Ok...must....get...off....computer...now... :-)
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RedEarth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-02-08 09:57 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. The part about SS is from the SS website........"Debunking Internet Myths"
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bry2k Donating Member (18 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-02-08 09:59 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Yes, I see. All links forwarded. Thanks. :-)
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rgbecker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-02-08 10:39 PM
Response to Original message
13. OK! I'll take the bait...Numbers don't match 1040 Instructions ....
So I got out my old 1040 instruction book from 1999 and most recent 2007...sorry no 2008 yet available. Here are the numbers from the tax tables. (I realize the email didn't give any information about the source of income (Capital gains, dividends, wages, rents or what) or if this income was gross or adjusted, but these are the numbers from the two years right from the tables as published by the IRS in the 1040 instruction book.

Single 30,000 1999- 5060 (not 8400) 2007- 4113 (not 4500)
Single 50,000 1999- 10660 (not 14000) 2007- 8930 (not 12500)
Single 75,000 1999- 18037 (not 23250) 2007- 15180 (not 18750)
Married Filing Jointly 60,000 1999- 11211 (not 16800) 2007- 8221 (not 9000)
Married 75,000 1999- 15411 (not 21000) 2007- 11604 (not 18750)
Married 125,000 1999- 30032 (not 38750) 2007- 24097.50 (not 31250)


As far as the immigrants receiving Social Security, that is hard to believe, as even my wife can't get anything as she never completed 40 quarters of work earning over $400 per quarter.
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