Camille Paglia - A Cat Among The Pigeons

[mongo]

Camille Paglia - A Cat Among The Pigeons
January 18, 2007
C R Sridhar

<snip>

Paglia's bete noire is the orthodox feminist establishment, which she attacks with a gusto that would shame the efforts of a Doberman tearing a slab of red meat. An enlightened feminism of the 21st century, she says, 'will embrace all sexuality and will turn away from the delusionalism, sanctimony, prudery and male- bashing of the MacKinnon-Dworkin brigade. Women will never know who they are until they let men be men. Let's get rid of Infirmary Feminism, with its bedlam of bellyachers, anorexics, bulimics, depressives, rape victims and incest survivors. Feminism has become a catch-all vegetable drawer where bunches of clingy sob sisters share their moldy neurosis.'

She earned the ire of the sisterhood by coining an interesting word "whuffle" which she defined as the annoying, scratchy sound made by weepy feminists as they lament the sufferings of women and, hound like, sniff out evidence of male oppression in literature, art and the media.

Paglia is especially severe on feminist divas, Catherine MacKinnon and Andrea Dworkin whose views on pornography resulted in the Minneapolis and Indianapolis ordinances against pornography that were subsequently declared as unconstitutional by the courts. Paglia and other pro-sex feminists challenged the campaign of Catherine MacKinnon and Andrea Dworkin that 'pornography degrades women' or 'Pornography is the subordination of women as being totally idiotic'. According to pro-sex feminists the notion that women are subordinate to men was downright misleading as most pornography shows women in as many dominant as subordinate roles in sex play. Moreover, Feminist anti- porn discourse ignores the gigantic gay porn industry, which deals with man-man, and woman-woman relationship, which has nothing to do with the subjugation of woman by man.

Commenting on the controversial debates initiated by the duo MacKinnon- Dworkin to abolish porn she thundered 'They are fanatics of the new feminist religion. Their alliance with the reactionary, anti- porn far right is no coincidence.' Pouring scorn on spurious feminist studies which purport to show the nexus between porn and rape, she said, 'Pornography does not cause rape or violence, which predate pornography by thousands of years. Rape and violence occur not because of patriarchal conditioning but because of the opposite, a breakdown of social controls.' Paglia is at her polemical best when she declares, 'In this mechanized technological world of steel and glass, the fires of sex have to be stoked. Pornography is a pagan arena of beauty, vitality, and brutality, of the archaic vigor of nature. It should break every rule, offend all morality.'

http://desicritics.org/2007/01/18/004050.php

[Warpy]

1. Great, an article about a woman hating pseudo feminist

written by somebody who shares her views of women as witless prey. The metaphors throughout this article are nauseating.

There is one gem, the first sentence, "'I came in like a scud,' declares Camille Paglia with iconoclastic fervour, ' I create total disorder. I just undermine authority.'"

Scud missiles were notorious for their inaccuracy.

[mongo]

3. Camilla Paglia

Defined sex-positive feminism and opened the door for a slew of great feminist writers:

Wendy McElroy
Nadine Strossen (former head of the ACLU)
Carol Queen
Susie Bright

just to name a few.

As a self described "feminist bisexual egomaniac", I don't think one could brand her as a "women-hater".

[Phredicles]

5. As I recall Susie Bright said she WAS a fan of Paglia's but became not one;

if Paglia's not a hater of women in general her hostility to a great many particular women is remarkable. And for someone claiming to be a feminist she sure spends a lot of time shitting on feminists.

[mongo]

9. She certainly shits on some ideologies

And the notion that hetro sex is inherantly sexist and opressive, and that women can't find power through their own sexual identity - and even acting that identity out through socially unwelcomed venues and practices.

[Miss_Strawberry]

30. She's kind of terrible

that book "Break, Blow, Burn" was an embarrassment

[Warpy]

8. There's a huge difference between loving women and loving

the use of women's bodies, one that Paglia and a sad number of men don't understand.

I don't think one could brand her as much of a feminist, assuming as she does that feminists are such sexless and vacuous creatures.

Most of the cohort she so describes came of age with the advent of the pill and, trust me, sexuality free from fear and guilt was one of the first things feminists explored.

However, she did have wonderful insights into Stupid's character back in 2001.

[mongo]

12. Does it have to be an either/or proposition?

There's a huge difference between loving women and loving the use of women's bodies

Is it not possible that one can do both? I don't have any qualms with someone acting out their (consentual) exhibitionism or voyerism for that matter.

Most of the cohort she so describes came of age with the advent of the pill and, trust me, sexuality free from fear and guilt was one of the first things feminists explored.

And a big positive that came out of that was that for the first time, women's sexual satisfaction became a desired outcome from sexual relations -- at least that was drilled into my generaltion (I'm 45).

[Der Blaue Engel]

15. As a friend of Carol's

I believe I can safely say that she is no fan of Camille's. I'll check with her to make sure though and get back to you. I could be wrong, but I would be very surprised.

[mongo]

16. I was only saying that Paglia paved the way for other sex-positive

feminist writers. I would expect that Ms. Queen is no fan of Dworkin, either.

[Der Blaue Engel]

19. Oh, she's absolutely no fan of Dworkin

:) But I think (and again, I've never sat down and had a discussion about this with her) that she would share my lack of respect for Paglia, based on Paglia's lack of respect for many women.

I personally don't view Paglia as having been instrumental in promoting the sex-positive feminism movement; she almost set it back a few centuries, in my opinion. But it's been years since I've read her work, so it's possible I'd have a different opinion of it if I were to look back at it now.

At any rate, I'd be interested to know what Carol's thoughts are on the subject, so I'll ask her the next time I talk to her.

[Midlodemocrat]

22. I think I would brand her a 'women hater'.

I saw her speak once many years ago.

Interestingly, it was on the heels of Margaret Mead, which is a story for another day.

I thought Paglia was awful. She struck me as a loathesome human being who was uncomfortable being in a woman's body.

I couldn't get out of there fast enough.

I do remember seeing Gloria Steinen speaking and Camille attempting to interrupt and being shown the door. A long time ago. The applause of the women in the crowd as Camille was ushered out was deafening. Thank God.

[iverglas]

33. Wendy fucking McElroy??

C'mon. You were kidding. Right?

Some people just never do grow out of Ayn Rand ...

[mongo]

4. And the "witless prey" comment

Would you like to expound on that?

Are you saying that by acknowledging yourself or women (and men) as sexual beings, that women must take a "witless prey" dynamic? Because I don't think Paglia would agree with you on that.

Is there no way for women to be powerful in a sexual context?

[Warpy]

6. Pigeons

'Nuff said.

[mongo]

10. Ah. Understood

But isn't the point that you don't have to be a pigeon?

[ellenfl]

2. and she calls herself a feminist. we should strip her of her

membership in the female human race. she's been trashing feminists for decades. just ignore her and maybe she will go away.

ellen fl

[tishaLA]

7. The thing is, I'm not unsympathetic to some of her positions

I, too, think the Dworkin-MacKinnon anti-porn endeavor was not especially useful, but there are so many areas she can direct her attention without cannibalizing other feminists. Judith Butler, among others, has made interesting arguments against Dworkin et al, but did it in a way that avoided Paglia's bluster and (frequent) sloppiness.

[mongo]

11. Interesting

And thanks for turning me on the Judith Butler. I'll have to find one of her books sometime.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judith_Butler

Yeah, Paglia is brash -- but that also gets you airtime and sells books.

[tishaLA]

14. The Butler book

where she talks about Dworkin and Mary Matsuda (another anti-porn advocate) is "Excitable Speech." Butler is a professor of Rhetoric and Communication (and Literature) at Berkeley.

[mongo]

17. Thanks.

I am so backed up on books I already own and want to read. Guess I spend too much time on DU.

But it is fun to confuse the customers by reading Feminist books while at the counter here at the porn shop.

[Book Lover]

13. An skimpy opinion piece written by nobody about a book that was new ten years ago...

And the book itself trashes a now-dead woman and someone who hasn't made a ripple in feminism in years...

So, what exactly was the point of posting this?

[Atargatis]

18. Why are you posting an anti-feminist diatribe to a women's rights

forum which I believe, based on reading some of the posts, includes feminists? And, why are you blocking discussion by some of its members?

What is the purpose of the blocking feature? Please direct me to where a discussion board sets up a way to block discussion and why.

Thanks in advance.

[mongo]

20. I don't consider it "anti-feminist"

to point out that there are differences in feminist thought - especially when it comes to sexual issues.

Why am I blocking posters? Well, as soon as this feature was implimented, I was blocked from participating in several threads in this forum. My block list is an exercise to show how this change is not the panacea that so many people think it is.

When someone is blocked in a thread, you have no idea that they cannot participate. But when you become blocked, you get to see life from their shoes, and how it is to "be silenced", as a DU'er put it in another thread.

[noamnety]

21. First, thanks for unblocking me.

Second ... I suspect a great many of us already know what it is to be silenced.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

23. I don't know anything about the woman, but at least one of the quotes from her is great.

"Rape and violence occur not because of patriarchal conditioning but because of the opposite, a breakdown of social controls." is an accurate, important and very widely-contradicted point.


On the other hand "'In this mechanized technological world of steel and glass, the fires of sex have to be stoked. Pornography is a pagan arena of beauty, vitality, and brutality, of the archaic vigor of nature. It should break every rule, offend all morality" is a silly statement, I think - it gives far more credit to pornography than it deserves - but I think she's quite right that the people campaigning to ban it on the grounds that it degrades women are totally idiotic, and the tone of the remark makes me suspect it's at least partly self-mocking.

I think she's absolutely right to dismiss campaigning to ban pornography because it degrades women as "totally idiotic", but if this is a sample of her reasoning then I think it's suspect.

[bettyellen]

24. exactly how is the opposite of patriarchy a breakdown of social controls?

and is she implying that either patriarchy creates a good (not being a breakdown is good, right?) safe haven for women and that rape and violence are just a natural thing, and men have to impose "unatural" controls to stop them? That seems to be the message behind that "great quote". I guess I need the great part explained.

I find her argument inaccurate and contradicted because it's BS. to put it mildly. And her espousal of brutality and "archaic vigor" make me wonder if she's leaning toward being a rape apologist. It sure sounds that way to me. I have nothing against porn, but she has always been an embarrassment with this macho stream of consciousness bullshit. As far as I can see she's nothing more than an attention whore. And what is her big exciting message? That there's nothing wrong with the status quo, where men rule with an iron fist, and women look up to them for it. Men pat themselves on the back for listening to her, and seriously try to argue that she's not against feminism. It's hilarious. She is strapping on the kneepads and metaphorically, collectively sucking off the men of America, assuring them they are so "pagan and powerful". Good god, she is a scam artist masquerading as an intellectual.

[noamnety]

25. I think I need a lot of it explained.

... let men be men. Let's get rid of ... rape victims

Do those rape victims just create themselves?

[Donald Ian Rankin]

26. "An", not "the", I think.

The opposite of breakdown of social controls is a strictly regulated society. Historically, that in America has taken the form of something which could be caricatured as "patriarchy".

I do, indeed, believe that rape, violence, theft, murder, cruelties great and petty, drinking, incivility and most other forms of misbehaviour are "natural things that need unnatural controls to stop them", for some values of the words "natural" and "unnatural". Not doing exactly what you want, when you want it, irregardless of the effect on other people, is "natural", and forcing oneself to consider the moral aspect isn't - no other species does, so far as I know, although some produce forms of ultimately self-interested behaviour that produce similar results. The most important part of growing up is learning to supress those of ones desires that are immoral, and do things one doesn't want to do. That's what "civilisation" is.

I've never felt a desire to rape anyone, but given that some people give in to such desires there must be a great many more (although probably still not that many, given how few give in to them) people who feel them but are able to suppress them as a result of learned, "unnatural" morality. Humans are naturally completely selfish. Morality is learned.

All civilisation, all morality, all art, culture, science, technology and learning, all manners, nearly all compassion and altruism except that between family members, and pretty much everything that makes life livable or worth living are "unnatural".

"Natural" is the most overrated word in the English language.


The suggestion that Ms Paglia is a "rape apologist" is foolish, I think, at least on the basis of this article, and I note that you don't go any further than "makes me wonder if". I haven't read anything else she's written, but there's certainly no evidence for it here. Likewise, she may say or suggest somewhere else that "That there's nothing wrong with the status quo, where men rule with an iron fist, and women look up to them for it.", but she certainly doesn't here.

[bettyellen]

27. she is glorifying the violent, the pagan (which is lawless and natural)

in sexuality and you see no connection whatsoever to being a rape apologist? Seriously can;t take that leap huh? Well I see it plain as day, but then I am familiar with her violence positive blatherings.

and perhaps you and camille need to actually look at rape statistics in other societies.
this patriarchal police state concept is manufactured out of whole cloth. you and camille both entirely ignore is that violent crime is much more prevelant when people are poor and neglected, not when they are well off and content. desperate people do desperate things. beverly hills is not going to break into riots the minute the police go home. amount of police officers on the job at any given time is not what makes women safe. sometimes the police, and very often the army (the most patriarchal group of all ) are the danger to woman. many patriarchal groups ignore some rapes, only protecting the group of women they see fit too.

[mongo]

28. I think you've made quite a leap

from acknowledging that there is an archtypical, primal, agressive componant to (most) consentual hetro sex and (much) consentual homosexual sex, to a "rape apologist".

There really isn't much egalitarian about human sexual interaction. Partners can trade off roles, even during the act, but one partner is nearly almost "topping" and one "bottoming".

The acknolegement of that fact of human nature has nothing to do with the crime of rape, a crime of mostly power and less of sex itself.

[bettyellen]

29. oh dear, it's your Gal Camille linking violence and sex here, not me.

and she is of he "get over it doll, thats how men are" old school. i've seen and heard lots of her over the years, and she's no intellectual heavyweight. she get attention for shock value, not for having valuable ideas.
she tells men what they want to hear. that the world makes too much of a big shit about their aggression- that it's natural, not really a problem.
it's not acknowledgment of aggression, it's romanticizing and making excuses for violent behaviour.

[naphthol]

31. rape apologist?

i think its a gross misrepresentation of paglia's views to
call her a rape apologist. 

even if she believes that rape is natural (although she uses
the words "primal and pagan" to connote
naturalness), there is no reason to  infer that she equates
naturalness with goodness.  in fact, i get the impression that
paglia yearns for a world that is as unnatural as possible. 
This, according to paglia, would be the height of civility. 
The prevention of rape and violence are suppressions of
natural urges.  i think paglia would applaud societal efforts
which aim to control what is primal within us.  Just because
patriarchy exacerbates unequal relations between the sexes
doesn't mean that patriarchy is the source of the social
inequality.     
More socialization does not necessarily mean more patriarchy. 
What is unnatural to our species (we are animals) must be
augmented for the sake of peace.  Unnatural civility can
co-exist with the liberation of women.  

Your statistics about where violence occurs most frequently
only confirm paglia's point.  Perhaps the reason why rape and
violence occur among low-income populations is that poor
people are usually not as educated and therefore, less
socialized.  It is difficult to be civil to one another when
you're worrying about losing all you have, or feeding yourself
along with your family. i don't know if paglia considers
herself much of an evolutionary biologist, but her overall
perspective  is in accordance with those views.  scarcity
breeds aggression because we revert to primal, survival
mentality.            

[iverglas]

32. I'm sure that all that needs to be said has been said

Haven't got time to read the whole thread yet ... but has anyone mentioned how hugely and unspeakably BORING this woman is?

Every time I hear her congratulating herself on having some great big original thought, I want to reach for my copy of Unskilled and Unaware of It: How Difficulties in Recognizing One's Own Incompetence Lead to Inflated Self-Assessments.



edit: Oh for pity's sake.

I usually do look at the date a thread started, and consider why it might have been resurrected ...

[gaspee]

34. Interesting, eh?

And Paglia's a pig with no original thought *and* a rape apologist. When I was a stupid kid, I thought she rocked, but then I grew up and learned how to think critically.

[iverglas]

36. heh

When I was a stupid kid, I thought she rocked, but then I grew up and learned how to think critically.

I'd managed to add another post before I looked at the dates -- referring to someone's reference to Wendy fucking McElroy (like David Frum of "axis of evil" fame, a Canadian we were happy to relinquish). Wendy's an Ayn Rand fan, re which I said Some people just never do grow out of Ayn Rand ...

Hee hee.

[noamnety]

35. lol on the thread resurrection

with its summary that poor people are just less civilized. :eyes:

[iverglas]

37. and like Wendy fucking McElroy and David Frum

claiming to be Canadian. Hmm. ;)