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Stuckinthebush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 12:11 PM
Original message
Somebody explain all the veg hate out there
I am really amazed at the number of people I meet who will openly become verbally hostile when I tell them that I have been vegetarian/vegan for almost a year.

First they say, "Why would you do that?"

Then I tell them about how my doctor warned me about my cholesterol problems and how I needed to cut back on meat. Then I tell them that my wife, a physician, said, "Let's just go vegetarian. It doesn't make any sense to eat meat now." And how this naturally led to veganism.

On Friday, I picked up an old friend for lunch. He asked me where I wanted to go, and I told him, "Anywhere as long as I can get something without meat" (I am vegetarian out and vegan in the house). He then started the above question of "Why?", and I explained the whole health thing emphasizing that it was a health issue specifically for me because of very high LDL and very low HDL.

The following exchange occurred:

Him: "You need meat."
Me: "No I don't - that's a myth"
Him: "Yes you do. Where are you going to get your protein?"
Me: (big sigh) "There is protein all over the vegetable world."
Him: "Well, I'm sure you don't get all of the vitamins you need. What kind of massive vitamins do you have to take because of this?"
Me: "Only B-12. And that is because our vegetables are too clean these days."
Him: "Huh?"
Me: (I explain B-12 issues and history to him)
Him: "Oh. Well, all I know is that every vegetarian and vegan I have ever met is pale and sickly looking."
Me: "Really? Do I look pale and sickly?"
Him: "Well, no. Not yet."
Me: "Hmmmm. I've been veg for almost a year now and feel healthier than ever. Most vegs I know are very healthy looking. More so than all of those burger eating friends of mine."
Him: "Well, it just can't be good for you. It won't last anyway, you'll want meat soon."
Me: "It is extremely good for you and I can't see myself suddenly deciding to eat meat. In fact, after you stop eating it for a while, it starts to look and smell really nasty."
Him: "Whatever"
Me: "OK"


So...tell me. What is so damn threatening about us? Jeez.

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livinginphotographs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 12:16 PM
Response to Original message
1. Because roving gangs of vegans like to beat people up.
We chase them down and force broccoli down their throats. We also like to sit on roof tops and hurl tofu at little old ladies. That's the best part of being vegan! :D

Seriously, though, I have no idea. I've been vegetarian for about 6 months now, vegan for about two, and was completely unprepared for some of the attitudes I get now. I'm not militant by any means, and rarely even talk to people about it unless they ask, but people always want to bring it up and spout ignorant crap about it.
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hollywood926 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Me too...
I'm only been meat-free for just over a month, but I find if I mention it all, I'm usually in big trouble.

Fuck 'em.
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Stuckinthebush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. The tofu hurling is the best part!
That was the part in the vegan recruitment literature that did it for me!

LOL!

:D
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Ellen Forradalom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-07-05 01:53 AM
Response to Original message
4. During the time I've spent vegetarian
(on-again, off-again thing) I've never encountered hatred. Derision, yes, but not hate.
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Stuckinthebush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-07-05 08:10 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. Yes, hate is too strong
But there is a strong undercurrent of disgust and animosity.
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Ellen Forradalom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-07-05 08:40 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. I think it is defensiveness
particularly if you went veg for moral or ethical reasons. They are throwing up their shields to defend against the criticism (explicit or implicit) of their eating habits (which are, by defintion, very personal.)

It's wearisome when all you were doing was standing there, minding your own business, munching on an organic carrot.
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Ellen Forradalom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-07-05 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #5
13. Now what really brought out the loathesome side of most people
was owning a pet rabbit. You would not believe the number of stew-and-mittens, kill-the-wabbit comments I had to endure from otherwise decent people.
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Maru Kitteh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-07-05 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #4
10. No actually, I have definately seen hate
Violent comments like how much fun it would be to tie a vegetarian down and force a cheeseburger down their throat. I've seen that many times.

Bumper stickers like this one http://www.cafepress.com/cp/browse/Ntt-vegan_p-3_N-0_pv-simplehatred.15124393_No-1_Ntk-All_D-vegan_Nao-1

How about this creative and humorous shirt? http://www.cafepress.com/cp/browse/Ntt-vegetarian_pp-_N-0_pv-agentofoblivion.10090794_No-1_Ntk-All_D-vegetarian_Nao-1_p-3

Don't kid yourself, the hate is out there.
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livinginphotographs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-08-05 08:23 AM
Response to Reply #10
18. Why the hell would someone want a T-shirt that said that?
If someone has personal issues (victim of vegan tofu-rape or something) and ends up hating vegans, good for them, but why the hell would you want a T-shirt that says that?

I guess people will buy anything...
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Ellen Forradalom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-08-05 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. It's CafePress
It only shows that someone is offering it (disturbing enough), not that anyone has bought it.
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Maru Kitteh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-08-05 10:00 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. The fact that it is on Cafe Press does not nullify the fact
the hate is out there. And the post does not rest entirely on those items for sale, it also rests on my own experiences.
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flvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 06:51 AM
Response to Reply #10
26. Those 2 examples...
You should see the rest of the options.

The first one lacks creativity. "I hate..." everything from vegans to hot chicks. Morons.

The second one also hates gays, jews and anyone that's not a Bushbot.

It's out there.
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Maru Kitteh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-07-05 12:03 PM
Response to Original message
7. I think the reasons are three-fold. First the animal slaughter and dairy
industries have done a remarkably wonderful job of selling their wares as essential to human survival. Your earliest memories of nutrition education most likely consist of sitting at your tiny little desk in about the second grade learning about the "four food groups" on a pie chart. Half of that pie was meat and dairy. You NEED meat for strong muscles you are told, never mind that Americans eat so much protein they're washing their bones away in their pee every day. You NEED milk for strong muscles you are told, forget that milk adds to the protein problem; or that you get plenty of calcium in your veggies and beans. This travesty of "education" compliments of lobbyists and big business began in the 40's and 50's if I remember correctly and boy have they done their job well.

Second up; the media. In popular culture vegetarians are ALWAYS portrayed as weird, loopy, freakish half crazy hippie types who sit around in a room so thick with incense it looks like a small house fire talking about moonbeam vibrations. The idea of vegetarian cuisine gets the same treatment. Everybody Loves Raymond did an episode where the parents find out they have dangerously high cholesterol and decide to fix a tofu turkey for Thanksgiving but of course being vegetarian fare everyone hates it and spits it out making faces like they will throw up because tofu is just so WEIRD. We're shown as eating nothing but rice cakes and celery sticks, starving ourselves into a gaunt hollow shell. Have you ever seen in popular media the image of a healthy vegetarian sitting down to a beautiful feast of vegetables, fruit and bread? I haven't.

Third; pure guilt. People really freak OUT when you take control of your health and in the process also manage to make do something that demonstrates compassion for animals instead of just the usual callous disregard for suffering, and benefits the environment as well. You BASTARD! How dare you make them look bad with your obnoxiously reality based knowledge of nutrition and how dare you make them consider for just a moment, where their food comes from, how it got there and just what is in it. You should be flogged publicly with an eggplant.
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Borgnine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 04:31 AM
Response to Reply #7
25. Well said.
I think you nailed it.
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flvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-07-05 02:42 PM
Response to Original message
8. BECAUSE YOU'RE TRYING TO TAKE AWAY MY RIGHT TO EAT MEAT!!
Damn you vegetarianis and veeeguns! You're unMurkin and gonna burn in hell.

It's all about me, me, Me, Me, ME, ME, ME!

Right vs. wrong? What do I care, it tastes good!!! Environment...health? We all gotta die of sumthin, might's well taste good. Mmmm...steak.

And soy is bad 4 u, anyway. It'll make men grow boobs with all the extrogen. Besides, them Californee cows r happy bein dairy-ed up. I seen it in a 'mercial this one time at my cuzzin Cletus' house (he gots him a set up where he steals cable from his neighbor).

There's also this guy, Jesus. He's the Lord and Savior. He ate meat. Yup. All the time. Screw that Adam and Eve Garden of Eden "fruit be meat" BS. Adam just didn't know how to hunt, and God knew it. Last Supper, I tell you what. Big ole fish fry. If that WJWD, then that's what we should all do. Matter of fact, when the Second Coming occurs, I'm gonna take Jesus through the Arby's drive through. It's on me, Big Guy.

Besides, this one time, at band camp, there was this vegan there, and he accidentally ate a tiny piece of pork that was in the beans, and his head exploded. I don't want an accident with my food to kill me like that. It was gross.

Veggie folks are poopyheads.

There. I think I covered it.
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livinginphotographs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-07-05 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Yep, you covered it.
:D
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Lorien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-07-05 06:42 PM
Response to Original message
11. Advertising
the beef and pork lobbys are VERY powerful in this country.People feel like they MUST eat meat, just as they feel that they MUST dress a certain way and own a late model vehicle and watch TV every night. It's groupthink.
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Piperay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-07-05 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. I've been a veggie since I was 7-8 years old
and it was always the last thing I ever wanted anyone to know about myself. Growing up as a veggie in the early 1960s (which was like the 50) was equivilent or worse than being a'commie'. I didn't even want to 'sleepover' at friend's homes for fear they would find out my deep dark secret...I HATE MEAT. If people found out you were a veggie they thought you were really a freak, I was so glad that in the late 60s with all the alternative lifestyles it became somewhat acceptable but still people get defensive. I think they feel you are putting them down just by the fact that you gave up meat. I have had people say some insulting personal stuff like 'you are too skinny, your legs look like sticks etc' for no other reason than me saying I don't eat meat. I am not undernourished, and I am 'sticklike'! I know that some vegetarians do get self-rightious but I never have and don't see as there is any call for someone to insult my appearance. I wonder what they would say if I said they were bloated cause of all the animal flesh they consume.
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Lorien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-07-05 09:02 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. Look at any PETA thread
many people-including so called "liberals"-hate the very notion of "animals rights" or the idea that animals deserve humane treatment of any kind. I suppose it's the same way slave owners felt hundreds of years ago; they need to be the ONLY ones who deserve rights and a show of compassion. It's only by the suffering of others that they can measure their own inherit "superiority". America-and DU-is full of those who hate animals and consume them in huge quantities partially because they like the taste, and partially because it gives them a feeling of control, power, and superiority (just MHO).

My dad eats a more meat based diet than my cats do; often his dinner is nothing more than a steak, his lunch pork, and his breakfast a pound of bacon. He has a pacemaker, is 80 pounds overweight, sweats constantly, has high blood pressure, had surgery for an aortic aneurysm this past year, and can't walk across a room without losing his breath.I've never met you, but I dare say you probably look a great deal healthier than he does!
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Stuckinthebush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-07-05 11:33 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. 5' 11'', 150 pounds, and NOT sickly looking!
Edited on Mon Mar-07-05 11:37 PM by Stuckinthebush
:D

I'm sure Piperay is not sickly looking either. Hell, I bet all of the beautiful vegetarians and vegans here are the healthiest damn bunch on DU!



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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-05 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #12
39. I feel your pain
because that's how I grew up, too. Meat was magic, and milk was absolutely essential (never mind I was lactose intolerant). I liked fish, but I've never been particularly fond of any other flesh foods.

Of course, I learned at the age of 5 how to palm the stuff and hide it in my undies and take it out in the yard and bury it under the shrubbery. Then they did me a favor and got a dog, and I didn't even have to go outside to get rid of it.

They never caught on.
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JackieO Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-08-05 04:18 AM
Response to Original message
16. This might sound twisted, but...
...if a particular meathead is really hateful, I often feel the urge to encourage them to eat even more meat... as much as possible... breakfast, lunch, dinner, snacks... if you get my drift...

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Piperay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-08-05 05:29 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. Hehehe
yeah, it's their funeral. (I know I am bad too :spank: )
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flvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-08-05 09:19 AM
Response to Reply #16
19. When I've reached my absolute limit...
which is very rare, I'll usually sign off with something like: "Go ahead and suck it down, carnivore, so you can die sooner and I can have your parking place."

Horrible thing to say, and I usually feel ugly after.
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Lorien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-08-05 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. I honestly feel that someday soon
there will be a mad cow pandemic. I stopped eating mammals the day I saw the Oprah episode that got her in so much hot water. My family had always pushed meat as "essential protein", but I could never touch another steak or burger after seeing that show. Non organic fowl is no more safe.Someday, Americans will all kick themselves for not listening to their veggie friends and family members.
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CrispyQ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-08-05 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. Mad Cow is here.
Anyone who trusts our government when they say we've only had, what, one or two cases of it, are deluding themselves. And why anyone on this site would believe the government is beyond me.

I agree completely that it will be a pandemic. When my sci-fi state-of-mind takes over, I believe that AIDS will decimate the populations of developing nations & Mad Cow will do the same to developed countries.
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H3Dakota Donating Member (314 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 07:52 AM
Response to Reply #16
31. *grin* Just give 'em this quote...
"You're thinking I'm one of those wise-ass California vegetarians who is going to tell you that eating a few strips of bacon is bad for your health. I'm not. I say its a free country and you should be able to kill yourself at any rate you choose, as long as your cold dead body is not blocking my driveway."

~ Scott Adams (Dilbert creater)
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iamjoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-08-05 09:10 PM
Response to Original message
23. As An Omnivore...
Edited on Tue Mar-08-05 09:12 PM by iamjoy
Whose sister went vegan three years ago...

Veganistan had some good points, that we have been force fed (so to speak) this notion that we need meat and dairy products. Plus, even for those of us who aren't religious, we kind of get the idea put to us that animals are on this earth for humans.

I do think pop culture is trying to do a better job of portraying vegetarians as "normal" and in some cases, even more advanced (Star Trek shows Vulcans as vegetarian - live long and prosper).

Sometimes, we (meat eaters) perceive vegetarians as having a "holier than thou" attitude. Maybe that is our own guilt, but some vegetarians really do act smug and intolerant, whether they mean it or not. And perhaps what you are perceiving as hostility and hate is really just bewilderment and curiosity.

We think vegans are depriving themselves (can't have this, can't have that). Rather than just grabbing something to eat, it must be planned carefully to ensure the vegan's restrictions are met. Most restaurants have menus to accommodate lacto-ova, but strict vegan is harder. And we just can't imagine NOT wanting meat since (we think) it tastes so good.

And it can be inconvenient, especially if the vegan is being "inflexible." A couple of years ago, my mother, sister and I were traveling. We walked several blocks in the rain to find a restaurant where she would eat (she'd rejected a few along the way). So, once we sat down, Mom and I questioned her strict adherence to veganism. My sister replied, "can't you go a whole day without eating a piece of dead animal flesh?" Perhaps she was frustrated and felt under attack, but you can see where this attitude can turn people off.

Suggestion: Try to get your omnivore friends to reduce the amount of meat they eat. Most data out there does support that eating less meat and more vegetables and whole grains is healthier. You will save a few animal lives and keep your friends.
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Maru Kitteh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #23
27. I welcome bewilderment and curiosity! It gives me a great opportunity
to talk about veg*nism and show people how much veg*n food they already eat, that it's not strange and maybe blow up some of those big brother myths that are ingrained so very deeply.

Veganism is really only a problem when going out to eat and the truth is, you can almost always make do with side orders or just request something without the meat eggs and dairy with little fuss. I'm a vegan for a variety of reasons.

It disturbs me that Americans have no reverence at all for the animals which give their lives to spend a couple of minutes on a plate. We distort their flesh into amusing shapes, gobble it down in contests of gluttony and throw it away by the thousands of pounds per day like it was so much nothing. Americans think of a slice of beef like a cup of peanuts or a bite of bread but it's not. I knew it was hypocritical to eat animals when I was not willing to kill them myself and yet for many years I did it anyway. I was wrong - it, is wrong. These animals are living beings that know fear and suffering and could know joy or at least contentment but for the way we treat them. They live in pure hell and die in cold terror and brutality. This is a good and factual brochure, no matter how you may feel about PETA. http://petaliterature.com/ProductImages/p2vsk.pdf I live with these damnable slaughter houses and animal concentration camps all around me.

Mad cow is here, it is very, very here. Do some research on CJD in this country, and realize that you are not safe eating birds either, or pigs.

The taste for animal foods has cost the planet much more than it can bear on a continued basis. One of the best people at explaining this is Howard Lyman, a fourth generation Montana cattle rancher who is now a vegan, or John Robbins. He was the heir to the Baskin-Robbins empire and turned his back on it all to advocate better health for humanity and better management of our planet through diet.

I don't consider it any kind of deprivation to eliminate meat from my life. I'm sure deep-fried candy bars are glorious but they are really bad for me. I'm sure meth is lots of fun. I seldom drink alcohol because while it is very amusing cirrhosis is a stupid way to die. If I really wanted to I could go and buy 500 pounds of wheat and potatoes, take it down to the local food bank, soak it with gasoline and set it on fire. I could do that; but that would make me a real asshole.

When I see a plate of meat I see a child in Brazil who goes to bed hungry because the grains which once sustained her are now too expensive for her family to afford. Those grains are now being fed to livestock so Americans can kill themselves with fine steaks, cheap burgers and chicken "nuggets". I see that child going hungry and I cannot be a part of it.

When I see a plate of meat I see an Earth that cannot continue to indefinitely support the abuse of pollution and denudement inflicted upon it by the animal industries. I see small farmers being pushed out of their livelihoods and off of their lands by big global agribusiness just as they have been in the U.S. in order to feed the wealthy of the world their fillet and froi gras. When I see a plate of meat I see water basins fouled with waste and rain forest clear cut for a few short years of grazing and I cannot be a part of it.

When I see a plate of meat I see my mothers congestive heart failure, diabetes, obesity, heart attack and kidney disease. I see my sisters weight issues and high blood pressure at 38. I see my mother in laws obesity, her hypoglycemia, hyperuricemia, heart disease and breast cancer. I see her husbands gallstones, diverticulitis, partial colon removals and astronomical cholesterol counts. I see my seemingly thin and fit neighbor who had stents put in her arteries last summer because even though she followed the guidelines eating white meat and fish her arteries clogged and threatened her life. Bad genetics you wonder? No. Skinless white chicken flesh has just as much artery clogging cholesterol as sirloin steak. I love climbing and hiking and camping and biking and just enjoying my life. I don't want to spend the next 50 years or so getting fatter, slowed down by an abused heart and circulatory system, full of failing organs that have given up trying to rid my body of the hormone injected, pesticide, toxin and cholesterol laden products of the animal industry. I refuse to kill myself with my fork.

When I see a plate of meat I see pigs, which are more intelligent than dogs BTW, that spend their entire brutal lives in agonizingly small crates never feeling the sun or smelling air not befouled by the excrement of thousands only to be hung up by their back legs and skinned or cut apart alive. I see dairy cows who's male offspring have their heads bashed in, many times right in front of their mothers if no buyer is available for the "useless" calves. I see the feedlot cattle I drive by every day, standing in excrement past their knees. They are so goddammed sad and miserable looking, with open sores that will never heal, void of any kind of care. I see chickens and turkeys that are boiled alive till their eyes explode. All of these things I have seen with my own eyes, and I will not be a part of it.


Quick facts:
Average American cholesterol intake - 350 milligrams
Cholesterol intake of a vegan - 0 milligrams ~ Cholesterol is found in animal products only.

Gallons of water required to produce 1 lb. beef 5,214 gallons
Gallons of water required to produce 1 lb. potatoes 24 gallons

Obesity rate since 1980 - up 16 percent
Meat consumption since 1980 - up 14 percent *up 32 percent from 1960!

Cattle tested for mad cow in the U.S. - 57,000 out of 850,460,000 slaughtered in the last 13 years
Cattle tested for mad cow in France - 66,000 per WEEK

Poultry at your local grocer infected with Campylobacter - 80 percent
Persons who die every day in the US from infected food - 14
US cases of foodborne illness reported each year - 76 MILLION
Primary cause of foodborne illness - feces contamination of meat
Not considered an adulterant by the USDA - feces not immediately visible to the naked eye on meat

I don't harass my mom or give her lectures on the evils of hog production. I do cook her delicious and well balanced vegan meals and give her the recipes. I do print out the occasional short article from very reliable sources showing her how a lower protein consumption will help her kidneys or that weight bearing exercise is much more important for her bones than calcium intake. I show her by example that leaving out animal products can be very easy, nutritionally complete, delicious and very satisfying. As she has moved away from a meat based diet to a more vegetable, grain and fruit based diet her diabetes no longer requires medication, her cholesterol has dropped to 110 and she has begun losing weight at the rate of about 1 to 2 pounds per week. It's hard to argue with results like that.

I find it telling that some meat eaters are so hateful and defensive right away as soon as you just say that you are a vegetarian. Trust me, you don't really have to beat them with celery sticks or tie them down and force them to look at photos of skinned cattle with their guts hanging out for some of them to just go OFF on you. All you have to say is "no thanks, I'm a vegetarian" usually after they have tried four or five times to get you to eat some kind of meat. This happened to my entire family in a Perkins restaurant. Somehow the waitress found it appropriate to evaluate my parenting skills based on the fact that we do not eat dead animals. I blame it on the three factors I already mentioned.

If your sister is being overly demanding I would humbly suggest it is more likely due to a character trait or a lack of maturity, and would probably occur with or without her present dietary habits. In those situations I would recommend that you offer a compromise with her like a good spaghetti or Italian place where she can get a dish with animal free marinara and the rest of you can get what you please as well. Meals together should be enjoyed by all and accommodating to everyone as much as possible, not centered around the inflexible demands of one person.
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livinginphotographs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. Great post!
You've addressed my own moral concerns with eating meat or using animal products perfectly.

I am not a member of PETA, I'm not militant, and most people don't even know I'm vegan unless it comes up. And if it does come up, it's usually because someone volunteers that information for me. No one really asks me about it, and if they do, I don't get all militant on them, I simply explain my position. The ones that go off after that have the problem, not me.

Sometimes I will make comments like what the OP's sister made, simply because I get frustrated with how insensitive people can be. But overall, I don't talk about it unless someone expresses an interest in my opinion, or offers an incredibly ignorant opinion and we're in an appropriate place to debate (like DU, for instance).

But I ramble....anyway, I've bookmarked this thread and will definitely go back and read your post whenever I start feeling frustrated.
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iamjoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 10:51 PM
Response to Reply #27
30. Some Of Us Stick Our Heads In The Sand
Edited on Wed Mar-09-05 10:53 PM by iamjoy
we'd rather not face the truth about the meat we eat, and maybe some resent vegetarians for making us face it.

About my sister, she has mellowed some about her vegetarianism (she's still strict vegan, but kinder to others). She has always been sensitive to criticism. When we went up to DC last year and she came down here a few weeks ago we were able to compromise and find places where everyone could eat.

I was telling her I feel bad for the animals, but I do like the taste, sometimes. A burger from McDonald's really doesn't taste good, although it would be hard for me to pass up filet mignon, even if I feel guilty about it. So my sister says, "so eat *less* meat."
Then I started thinking that I'm trying to eat healthier anyway, so of course I'd rather have french fries, but I'm going to get brocolli, why not extend that to cut my meat consumption as well? I have been trying, but sometimes I'm too tired to cook and it is hard to break the drive thru habit.

How do you NOT feel deprived, even if it is a sacrifice you are willing to make for good reasons? I know after a while you get to the point where meat sickens you, but how do you get to that point? I mean, even on a diet, one splurges every now and then and has something fattening and delicious. I'm not being snide, I am trying to reduce (if not eliminate)my meat consumption and need help.
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livinginphotographs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 08:22 AM
Response to Reply #30
32. Regarding feeling deprived...
I really haven't had any cravings for cheese, meat, etc. at all. You'd be surprised how many great vegan dishes are out there. I do eat out a lot less, so maybe the social experience of going out to dinner would be something I'll crave at some point, but I don't miss the meat. Once it really sinks in where it comes from, it doesn't look all that tasty anymore.

And good for you for at least reducing your meat consumption. It shows you are aware of the impact eating meat has on your health, the environment, etc., and eating less meat is definitely better than doing nothing at all.

See, this is the kind of discussion I'd like to have all the time with those who eat meat. :)
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iamjoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. Try Sharing Recipes
I think if you start out trying to get them to reduce their meat and sharing the health benefits without acting like you are trying to "convert" them, you'll have better luck.

The person who started this thread told their friend they had to go to a restaurant where they could get something vegetarian. A better approach may have been finding a few veggie friendly restaurants in advance and suggesting them.

Don't make a big deal about being vegetarian. Maybe people think vegetarians seem boastful about the whole thing, or acting like they are better (I don't mean this snidely, it's just an observation).

Both sides could be more tolerant, I say vegetarians shouldn't act like they are trying to "convert" meat eaters, but meat eaters shouldn't try to "convert" vegetarians (why don't you eat meat? you need meat. you're going to crave it eventually.)?

If it is any consolation, it isn't just vegetarianism. My step-dad doesn't eat chocolate. When my Mom met him, that drove her nuts and she kept trying to get him to eat it. That got him pissed off. She learned to respect his wishes and they've been married for twenty-one years - they've found other things to fight about now.
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Stuckinthebush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. He had mentioned BBQ on the phone
I left that part out.

You do have a point - I should have suggested a place instead of bringing up the vegetarian stuff. That would have meant that the confrontation would probably have been avoided.

But the tone I said it in was not nasty. There are many places one can go and eat vegetarian (vegan is a different issue). BBQ just isn't normally a good place to go and find vegetables. Perhaps a big plate of baked beans, but they usually have pork in them.

I do know jerky vegetarians and vegans. These people, however, are jerks in just about every aspect of their lives. I would never brow beat someone into becoming vegetarian, but many omnivores I have had conversations about vegetarianism with assume that I am going to judge them. I don't. I wish that more people would eat less meat - and eventually no meat - but I won't push it on anyone.

I have a neighbor whose work revolves around cooking. She lives to eat and cook. We we told her about our vegetarianism/veganism she got very hostile. I think it was because she felt that we were denigrating her worth by becoming vegs. We learned a lot from this exchange. The first thing is that we preface our conversations (usually) with, I'm veg because of health reasons. This tends to put people at ease and opens the door for other conversations about the environmental/animal respect benefits of vegetarianism/veganism.
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iamjoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 10:31 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. Exactly!
Yeah, BBQ isn't friendly to vegetarians or vegans!
But, starting out by saying it is for health reasons, you will probably get a better response. And, especially with your spouse being a physician, you can just smile and say it is physician approved.

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Maru Kitteh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #30
35. Those are all good points and questions
You don't feel deprived if you are eating tasty and satisfying food. When we first made the transition we ate a lot of Boca's "chic'n" sandwiches and veggie burgers. Morningstar farms being the favorites. Some people live on the stuff forever but we used it as kind of hold-over until we were more familiar with how to build our meals around veg cooking.

As you spend more time eating healthier meals I promise you the greasy salty foods which once made up so much of your regular fare will hold very little appeal whatsoever. It really doesn't take that long to break the spell either, you'll be amazed. I was a dedicated cheeseaholic for over 20 years and now it just doesn't sound very good. Same way with chips, crackers, fries, etc. It's not just the meat that smells gross now, it's all the other stuff too. I'll still eat some chips, but I used to sit with the hubby and we would clear out a bag. We don't have the urge to do that anymore.

I think your body craves high fat and calorie foods because most of us do not get the kind of nutrition that we should from the foods we eat. Your stomach gets full with these foods but your body stays hungry. When you feed your body the nutrition it craves with lots of fresh vegetables, whole grains and colorful fruits the junk food doesn't look good anymore.

Seven years ago on a Friday evening you would have found me right behind you in the drive-thru, eating anything that came in a bag, using the opportunity to have a smoke and contemplate the evenings festivities. I've broken TONS of bad habits since then. (thank God I never took up with drugs too!) You should make the transition to a healthier life at the pace which best suits you. Educate yourself along the way for additional motivation.

There are lots and lots of meals that you can cook that are old familiar favorites but with a healthier new veggie twist. Last night we had tacos with tofu instead of ground beef. Don't be afraid of the tofu! It's a very quick, easy and extremely versatile. All I did was press the tofu out, crumble it up, put a packet of taco seasoning in and put it in the trusty non-stick pan. For mexican foods you can use tofu or beans where you would once use meat. Have a pizza with veggies and some non-dairy cheese. Some fake cheeses REALLY suck so don't give up after trying the first package or two. My suggestions would be Tofutti slices and Vegan Gourmet Cheese by Follow Your Heart. Call your health food stores and see if they carry them or you can buy them online too. I have a cheap microwave rice cooker that works great. I use it to keep rice handy for a lighting fast meal of marinated tofu with stir-fried frozen vegetables. That takes about 6 or 7 minutes from the fridge to the table. If you think about it, that's faster than most drive-thrus anyway. If you must get food on the road or quickly, try a veggie-max patty at Subway, a BK Veggie at Burger King or see what kinds of vegetarian options are available for you.
Here is a great directory for vegan products in your supermarket. http://www.peta.org/accidentallyVegan/
And this is my favorite site for vegan/veg recipes http://vegweb.com/

You can ask for a free vegetarian starter kit here. It was very helpful to me, lots of great meal ideas! http://www.vegetarianstarterkit.com/?int=1
Or here from the Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine http://www.pcrm.org/health/VSK/starterkit.html

That last site is an excellent source of nutritional information also.

Please don't be afraid to ask for help or ideas or think that any question you may have is too silly to ask! We would be GLAD to help you in any way we can. I haven't met hardly ANY veg*ns that have been veg their whole lives. Almost ALL of us were essentially right where you are right now. It wasn't so long ago that my idea of a perfect meal would have been beef steak and lobster. I realized that although I did like the taste of some animals, I didn't like it any more than I did baby carrots or a nice slice of melon or a fresh red apple. Next time you go to the store, make a conscious effort to spend more time in your produce department. Pick up a few things you might usually pass by. If you will by buying less meat, give yourself permission to spend that money on bright colorful fruits and veggies.

Good luck, and please let us know however we can help you. :grouphug:
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Piperay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #23
29. Lots of vegans and vegetarians do have
Edited on Wed Mar-09-05 07:23 PM by Piperay
a self-righteous 'holier than thou' attitude and they make it difficult for the rest of us. When I first started going with my boyfriend I held off as long as possible telling him I was a vegetarian cause I knew it would freak him out. When I finally had to tell him he was 'freaked' but that was because he was scared I was going to dump all over him. I remember him asking in this worried tone of voice what my attitude about what he ate was etc. he was concerned that our relationship would be dominated by dietary concerns. I told him he could eat whatever he wanted and I was not going to lecture him or anything like that. Well that has been along time ago and he is practically a complete vegetarian himself now but that has been his own choice by observation. I really think that it is best to not brow-beat meat eaters, who wouldn't get defensive about what you eat, that is a very personal thing. Most meat-eaters have been pleasantly surprised when they find out that I am not going to take a self-righteous attitude toward them so they don't need to get defensive, I just want the same from them.
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Ellen Forradalom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 11:51 PM
Response to Reply #23
37. I am not entirely vegetarian at this time
since it doesn't work well with my family situation.

I do make the sure the majority of meals we eat are vegetarian/vegan. I've put three vegan dinners on the table in the past week. My main concern is good nutrition for my five-year-old boy. I am convinced that keeping meat eating to a minimum, or eliminating it altogether, is healthy.

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carolinayellowdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-05 11:28 AM
Response to Original message
38. Guilt, repressed and projected
Hey,

Having recently reverted to lacto-ovo-veg for health reasons after 25 years of anything-but-mammals, I notice myself making mental connections between wild and pet birds and industrialized chicken. Connections that we are carefully taught to repress. Birds have faces and minds and emotions, and this fact is buried somewhere in the unconscious of poultry-eaters. (At least as it applies to chickens and turkeys.) I wasn't troubled by it for all those years, but now I realize that deep down I knew it. Mammal eaters have a much bigger lump in the carpet of consciousness, having to sweep all those cows and pigs under it.

SOMEBODY is arrogant and guilty and harmful, and since their filters won't allow them to admit that it is meat-eaters, they turn it on THEM, the wicked vegans and vegetarians. Projection pure and simple, aided by the vegans and vegetarians who really are arrogant and harmful to the cause.

My take,

CYD
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Coventina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-05 01:27 AM
Response to Reply #38
40. Spot on
:thumbsup:
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