Well, the Savannah cat is here at home, BUT

[Lorien]

he's not happy! Any input on calming him, toys, training, etc. would be appreciated!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=105x4473897

[Grateful for Hope]

1. I wish I could help

but I don't know enough. Just wanted to say that he is a beautiful cat. I hope you get some good suggestions here, Lorien.

[IndyOp]

2. For some immediate relief - I would try homeopathy -

I often use Bach's Flower Essences with my pets. I used them especially when introducing my first dog to the house when I had two cats at the time; also when I adopted my traumatized Golden from a rescue (he was abused and dumped at a shelter by an f'ing puppy mill owner)...

In my opinion - homeopathy is better than drugs (sedatives) which will only dull his experience of the world - not help him adjust...

In your situation, I would consider calling a practitioner - here are the ones in Florida from The American Veterinary Homeopath website <http://www.theavh.org> and several of them work with exotics (EX):

Lisa Edwards , DVM
Coastal Animal Hospital Wellness Center
545 Gus Hipp Blvd.
Rockledge , FL 32955
USA
Phone: [phone]
Fax: [phone]
Species Preferences : SA
Percent Homeopathic Cases : 50-75%
Phone Consultations NOT Accepted

Larry Bernstein , VMD, PcHom. CERTIFIED BY THE AVH
Natural Holistic Health Care
751 N.E. 168th Street
N. Miami Beach , FL 33162
USA
Phone: [phone]
Fax: [phone]
Species Preferences : SA, LA, EQ, EX
Percent Homeopathic Cases : 75-100%
Phone Consultations Accepted
Visit This Member's Web Page

Nancy Keller , DVM CERTIFIED BY THE AVH
Healing Heart
208 NE 3rd Street
Boynton Beach , FL 33435
USA
Phone: [phone]
Fax: [phone]
Species Preferences : SA
Percent Homeopathic Cases : 50-75%
Phone Consultations Accepted

Robin Cannizzaro , DVM
Wholistic Veterinary Care
5500 Haines Road
St. Petersburg , FL 33714
USA
Phone: [phone]
Fax: [phone]
Species Preferences : SA, LA, AV, EX
Percent Homeopathic Cases : 75-100%
Phone Consultations Accepted
Visit This Member's Web Page

Iris Ramirez , DVM
Box 8292
Fort Myers , FL 33908
USA
Phone: [phone]
Species Preferences : SA
Percent Homeopathic Cases : 50-75%
Phone Consultations Accepted

Anja Kordon , DVM
Animal Health Oasis, Inc
P.O. Box 2106
Bonita Springs , FL 34133
USA
Phone: [phone]
Fax: [phone]
Species Preferences : SA, AV, EX
Percent Homeopathic Cases : 25-50%
Phone Consultations NOT Accepted

Dawn Waltonbaugh , DVM
Animal Wellness Service
16208 Seminole Blvd.
Brooksville , FL 34601
USA
Phone: [phone]
Species Preferences : SA, AV, EX
Percent Homeopathic Cases : 75-100%
Phone Consultations Accepted

Arthur Young , DVM CERTIFIED BY THE AVH
Homeopathy for Animals
40 N. River Road
Stuart , FL 34996
USA
Phone: [phone]
Fax: [phone]
Species Preferences : SA, Avian, Exotic, LA
Percent Homeopathic Cases : 75-100%
Phone Consultations Accepted
Visit This Member's Web Page

American Veterinary Homeopath website <http://www.theavh.org> - click on Current AVH Referral List; and then on Proceed To The List and then I selected Florida.

No matter whether you decide to keep him, rehome him, or place him in a refuge - a homeopath could help him adjust more smoothly....

[Lorien]

4. Thanks for the addresses and links IndyOp

I think I'll try some Rescue Remedy in his water for now, but I'll also check out the website and maybe call one of the vets for advice.

[superconnected]

3. I went through months of mischief not being social - oddly since she

was born in my apt, and her siblings would crawl all over me and follow me around.

She still rarely wants to be picked up but now accepts me petting her and is a major toe hunter (mine), and she demands doors opened for her now- as well as is the most talk-a-tive of my cats. She vocalizes everything she wants - which she didn't for the first 6 or 7 months.

What I suggest is that you do the same as I did with mischief. Respect Savannahs boundries but be warm and pretend it's not happening and he's just like the other cats. Don't see him if he wants to be invisible. Give him all the space he wants.

One of the things new cats at my home like is that I feed them on their own paper plate and push it toward them or take it to them if they aren't in the kitchen at feeding time. Whether they eat or not at the start, all end up liking the preferencial treatment. It's only putting down food and pushing the plate toward them - maybe a few inches then leaving them alone.

[IndyOp]

5. I love what you are saying here - I did the same with my Golden, Ben,

in terms of giving him all the space he wanted and, especially, instructing visitors to do the same.

When I visited Ben at his foster home, his other-wise sweet foster mom was actually making him worse because she spent lots of time trying to push him into interacting 'normally' when he wasn't ready. Ben was interacting well with the other dogs in the house - running around, playing - when she ignored him. When she tried to pay "extra" attention to him, he would hide under the kitchen table with his head shoved into the corner, trembling. And she thought this was helping? :eyes:

[Lorien]

7. Well, I've been fixing him special plates of his favorite foods

and pushing them towards him. Usually he doesn't eat, but he did go for some wheat grass today, and went wild for a few sprigs of parsley last night.

You can tell that he's depressed and anxious just by looking at him. I feel so awful for the guy, being abandoned by the person he was bonded to since kittenhood like that! It's especially hard to watch very intelligent animals suffer emotionally. :-(

[demnan]

6. I think if anyone can tame him, you can

with your intense love and patience for the animal. I have no suggestions as I've never had anything but a domestic cat before.

With helpful suggestions here, I know you'll do ok. I think you are wise not to introduce him to your other cats very quickly. I'd hate to see those sweeties injuried by a scared half-wild cat.

[Lorien]

8. Thanks Demnan. I wish I had a bit more confidence in myself

here! When he stands on his hind legs he can reach my chest-and I'm nearly 5' 8"-so that's a bit intimidating. It's going to be quite some time before the others get to meet him.

[Lorien]

9. UPDATE: I managed to get close enough to take these photos

today. Not great work, but I was worried about him lunging at me the whole time.The close up was taken through the back door-at least he wasn't hissing or growling.



He was watching a feather toy here, but he's still "hunkered down", so I know he's not entirely comfortable yet:







A little playtime:



I have a meeting with a guy that's on the board of our local wildlife sanctuary tomorrow. If I can't make it work, then I'll need a back up plan.Puck throws herself at the window whenever Ashiki walks by it-not good!

[IndyOp]

10. He is gorgeous - and I can tell how big he is by

looking at how he has to squeeze to fit on a standard cat tree. The very fact that you were able to get in to play with him with the feather toy is hopeful...

Maybe Puck and your other babies could also use some Rescue Remedy during the 'attempted adjustment period'.

How many pounds does this guy weigh? How plausible is it that you would keep him and keep him completely separate from your other cats? Was the Pixie Bob at his old house introduced to him when he was a kitten or when he was an adult? :shrug:

You are a brave woman.

[Lorien]

11. Or I'm just an idiot ;-). He must weigh 25 pounds or more

what's really scary is that he can reach my chest when he stands on his hind legs-and I'm nearly 5'8". He's a loooong cat!

I think the Junglebob was introduced as a kitten. Ashiki was a totally different cat at his previous owner's home-as gentle as my Oberon. He's nothing like that now!

[IndyOp]

12. If he was really as gentle as Oberon at his previous home then

maybe it is worth giving him plenty of time to adjust. The more *wild* the animal the harder the transition, and he was just banished from his person, his home territory, his pride (Pixie Bob).

And, now he has landed in the territory of three other cats. He has got to be terrified and disoriented.

If I were you, I would be tempted to send his person daily emails with photos and stories of his distress - I am pissed as hell that she is thinking about getting another exotic. :grr:

I can barely empathize with someone who took on an exotic thinking they could handle it and then realizes they are in over their head - I cannot empathize *at all* with this woman who can't handle this guy and is planning to get another.

She should be exposed the blow-by-blow consequences of her actions --> his distress. :mad:

[Lorien]

14. His previous owner simply isn't right in the head. At this point I can

barely stand to be on the phone with her for even two minutes. The people at the holistic pet food store where I do my adoptions detest her; she comes in there, moves all the merchandise around,opens products, lectures them about the ingredients in all their products for over an hour, then leaves with a $5 purchase-which she returns the next day. They think she's just lonely-or simply nuts. She has an expensive home and car, but is very stingy with her cash. She told me she was 35 when I know she's 51...I could go on and on. The capper yesterday was when an animal handler for Jack Hannah told me to get a towel or old article of clothing from her to help Ashiki transition-and she refused! Here she was crying when I took him away, then she's so stingy she can't part with a towel???! Freaking insane!

[IndyOp]

16. Now I am somewhere between tears and rage --

The capper yesterday was when an animal handler for Jack Hannah told me to get a towel or old article of clothing from her to help Ashiki transition-and she refused!

That WITCH! :nuke:

We have already established that she is heartless, so I suppose that explains how she could be so cheap or so cruel as to want to deny that he is experiencing any distress as a result of being separated from her and from his home (and giving the towel indicates that she accepts responsibility for his distress). She just wants to forget him, fantasize that he is happy, and reassure herself that she is a wonderful person...

I might just go back to her house unannounced and demand the towel. I am not big on 'revenge' but I think the suffering she has caused should be made very clear to her - if you can send a friend. I would expect her to react defensively - as if she is being attacked by having someone imply that giving away the cat was the wrong thing to do - but someone should tell her point blank that she has no business taking any new animals, especially exotics, into her home.

[Lorien]

17. That's how I've been feeling all week

I know that if I confronted her I would quickly dissolve into tears because I get so emotional when I talk about an animal suffering-and when I get really angry.I find that I've been using a very flat, controlled professional tone with her because otherwise I might just lose it-which I nearly did when I asked for an item of clothing or towel, and she said "but he has his baby (a small catnip toy), that's enough". :grr:

I've rehabilitated orphaned raccoon cubs, and when I've sent them off to the wildlife rehab center for their "un domesticating" (they are put in an enclosure with other raccoons, where they can no longer see people) I leave them with a favorite blanket, stuffed toy, and several weeks of their favorite foods for the transition. My foster kittens get a similar sendoff. I can't imagine having a pet for two years and not sending it off to a new home with a proper care package!

[ThingsGottaChange]

18. What an unbelievably stunning creature!

I wish you the best of luck with him. I think he is better off with you than anyone else at this point. Kudos to you for being so willing to help the helpless! :hug:

[IndyOp]

13. One last Q - have you tried Feliway?

It might be a good idea to use on the entire household. :shrug:

[Lorien]

15. Yeah, I've been using it in his room, but I think the suggestion

for the entire household is a good one.

[Lorien]

19. Well, the wildlife sanctuary guy (Jim) came by to look at him today

he was blown away; walked right into Ashiki's room and call his wife on his cell while he was PETTING the snarling beast (Ashiki didn't bite, to his credit) "Yeah, he looks like a giant ocelot, or a smaller cheetah-looks to be about 40 pounds-just gorgeous! Stunning! Nearly all serval, by the looks of him..."needless to say it was love at first sight for Jim, and Ashiki actually behaved fairly well with him. I guess it was because he could tell that Jim wasn't even vaguely frightened of him. Jim said that he would give Ashiki a home if it didn't work out for him here-he has 22 other animals at his sanctuary and makes a living as a wildlife relocator, plus he's on the board of the largest sanctuary and rehab facility in Central Florida, so I guess he knows his critters.

With Jim's help, I was able to clean up Ashiki's room and litter box. Whew!

[IndyOp]

20. Wonderful! I am so glad to hear you have support -

you deserve it! 40 pounds?! Nearly all serval?!?! A smaller cheetah?!?!?! Oh my!

I am glad to hear that Jim is offering him a home. Maybe you could go visit to see how he has it set up? If Ashiki would have great big space to play and maybe even another cat like himself to play with...?

I know that you promised the previous owner to keep him - but you don't owe her anything. :mad:

You only owe yourself and Ashiki...

Got any pics of wildlife guy Jim and Ashiki interacting? Probably not your priority when he was there, I'm just asking -> :)

[okasha]

21. Any updates?

How are you and Ashiki doing?

[Lorien]

22. I got a headbutt and a chuff for Christmas!

Yesterday I was playing with one of his fishing pole toys in his room with him, and he started catching it, them bringing it to me and dropping it on my foot! Finally he rubbed against my legs, chuffed a few times (a Big cat friendly noise) and gave me a headbutt! Still a few hisses today, but we're making progress!

One minor setback last night; we were playing in his room while I was talking on the phone using my headset. Suddenly he fixed his eyes on me, then leaped up and snatched the headset right of my head! Nearly scared me to half to death! Fortunately he dropped the headset at my feet and didn't carry it back to his bed (where it would have been difficult to retrieve it).

[okasha]

23. Excellent.

Sounds as though he thinks your headset is one of his toys, too.

[Grateful for Hope]

24. Sounds as if

this boy is very highly intelligent. He doesn't want a distraction from his interaction with you. Lorien, it is important to you, and I suspect, that it is as equally important (if not moreso) to him.

[Lorien]

25. He is very, very bright

it's getting harder and harder for me to exit his room, he finds ways of keeping me inside, and won't be distracted if I throw another toy for him. His cunning is a bit unnerving-I certainly don't turn my back to him!

[Grateful for Hope]

26. you can just look at him

and see the intelligence in his eyes. What an amazing creature!

[IndyOp]

27. This guy is *so* smart - you might try training him, using

basic commands - sit and down, especially. It might help you establish your 'alpha' status and make you more confident that he can be controlled if/when you decide to enlarge his world by allowing him to interact with your cats or other people. I feel odd suggesting you treat him like a dog, but he is kind of doglike in his desires to interact with people...

You might also try a little agility work with him... :)

***Rare Pictures***Minnesota HOOPING Bugs****
<http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=243&topic_id=6017>

[Lorien]

28. I think I will try some behavioral modification with clicker training

He LOVES liv-a-littles chicken treats (bloody expensive)! He hisses when I walk towards the doors, so maybe if I wait until he makes his "ow, ow" friendly sounds, then *click* and enter the room. I think he might start to make the connection between friendly behavior and getting the contact he desires. I'm still not certain how to react when he lunges at me; soft tones only seem to encourage more bad behavior, while harsh tones scare him. :shrug:

I've started calling his best behavior his "kitty" moments, his hissy but still somewhat friendly behavior his "serval" moments (which is most of the time-but then he is mostly a serval), and his nasty wild cat attacks his "Asian leopard cat" moments. Here's hoping to see more of the kitty in Ashiki!

[IndyOp]

29. Check with your wild cat guy about this...

I'm still not certain how to react when he lunges at me; soft tones only seem to encourage more bad behavior, while harsh tones scare him.

Maybe the answer is freeze and ignore him - you won't engage with him...
Then again, maybe the answer is to use a harsh tone - and his being a little afraid is okay...

:shrug:

[okasha]

31. Lorien, what exactly is he doing when he lunges at you?

Does he bite, or try to? Or try to knock you down? When does he do it? Before/after food/play/when you enter the room?

[Samurai_Writer]

30. Glad to hear he's doing better, Lorien!

And glad to hear that the wildlife guy was so excited when seeing him. That huge cat would put the coyotes near my new house in their place, for sure! 40 pounds?!? That's unreal. I'd be a bit careful around him too! But it's good he is starting to bond with you and calm down a bit. Good luck!

PS. Sterling says hello.

[blindpig]

32. Chickens.

Hey, I'm just an old former zookeeper.:P

[IndyOp]

33. Are all of your appendages intact?

I have friends who worked with hyenas in a behavioral research facility - several of them were bitten - one when a female was delivering a pup and he reached in; another when they had to move the hyenas from one facility to another. They lied about having been bitten because they didn't want to have the hyenas removed.

What animals did you work with? What do you think of Ashiki's lunging?

[blindpig]

34. So far so good.

I was pretty lucky as I did have a few close calls. Waked in with a cougar once by accident, I was unfamaliar with the protocal, but no big deal, she was a sweetheart. Also walked in with a female polar bear, damned good thing she was as surprised as I was! If it had been the male I wouldn't be typing this. Only serious injury was a permanently mess up knee from an accident with an elephant. Also had a great crested porcupine back into me hard, leaving half a dozen quills in my leg.

I'm pretty rusty on this stuff but I have a book on the shelf at home, The Psychology of Zoo and Circus Animals by Heidi Heidiger, an old work but possibly useful. As I recall Heidiger's basic premise of training circus cats was the manipulation of the fight and flight distances of the animal. I'll check it out tonight and report if I find anything useful. It does sound like she needs to be given some space, for the time being anyway. It's great that Lorien now has a backup plan, that fellow seems to really know his stuff.

I worked at the Children's Zoo for a year, mostly domestic stock. Two years with elephants, polar bears, sea lions, pygmy hippos and small clawed otters. My last two years were with primates and small mammals. Nowadays I just have a basement full of reptiles.

[Lorien]

35. Hi blindpig!

Mostly I'd like to know what the best way to react to his lunging is; I want him to know that I'm not intimidated, but I don't want to frighten him so much that he becomes more aggressive. I know what to do with canines, but wild cats have a very different social and psychological makeup.

[blindpig]

36. I'll let you know.

This seems to be right up Heidiger's alley, don't know if there would be much difference between Panthera and Felis but I'll post back to this thread what I find this evening or tomorrow morning.

I don't know why the hell people do this hybrid crap, no good can come of it and the poor mixed up critter is usually the one who suffers. You're doing good work.:toast:

[blindpig]

37. Okay

I've read over both threads and I've got to say that you're getting advice from persons more qualified and hands on than me. Anyway, the book that I was referring to, properly titled The Psychology and Behavior of Animals in Zoos and Circuses by H Hediger was not much specific help. It did get me thinking though. I don't recall you stating this cats age. Has it reached puberty? As long as it is not far past puberty the possibilities of modifying his behavior are good. If you're going to keep him you'll have to establish dominance. I expect that the fellow from the sanctuary would have good advice on that.

I've got to be honest with you, I think you're taking on a major project here. That is a wild animal, unmodified by domestication, though tame. I doubt that it can be a satisfactory house pet in the long run. A good sancturary/zoo setting might be more appropriate. Or you could give your bathroom over to him permanently. Maybe I'm wrong but I don't think that you'll ever be able to entirely let your guard down with him, dominance will always be an issue. Some can hang with that, to me it's too much like work.

I really wish you the best of luck, as a fellow biopheliac I know how it is with critters. I've got a gang of rescued/discarded pythons currently eating me out of house and home.What you gonna do?:shrug:

Best of Luck!:yourock:

[AlienGirl]

38. Some people are great with wild roommates

A basically wild cat is not going to be a "pet" in the conventional sense of the word, but there are people who do great with wild animals as roommates. I am one of them, though my talents run to birds and mammalian prey-species (especially rodents). We are rare, but where we exist, I believe we're better than an institutional setting for the creatures we share our lives with. And I believe Lorien is probably a person who can have a non-domestic feline roommate. It's more like living with someone from a very different culture than it is like having a "pet."

Tucker

[okasha]

39. That says it perfectly!

'It's more like living with someone from a very different culture than it is like having a "pet."'

Exactly! What's the famous quote--"they are different nations?"

[blindpig]

40. Please don't get me wrong.

I have the greatest respect for ya'all. You are one of the folks I was referring to as more qualified than myself and I defer to your superior experience. Guess I shouldn't have come off so gloom & doom but I'm just real cautious. I guess my experience of my former occupation was showing too. If it can be pulled off it's got to be very rewarding, a relationship pretty much impossible to have with the reptiles I work with excluding the terrestial turtles and tortioses, who can be pretty smart and personable. You both have my best wishes and admiration.

You work with rodents? I hope you don't find this offensive but are there any species of very small mice being bred well? I've seen one species at exotic shows, African I think, but don't know anything about them. Having very small pinks would be very useful for starting some small and persnickity baby snakes.

[AlienGirl]

42. African spiny mice are making their way into the pet trade

There are also dwarf mice, but I'm not sure who breeds them.

Tucker

[Lorien]

43. The weird part is that the neighborhood wildlife LOVES me!

I've even petted some of the raccoons in my backyard, and the screech owls let me walk right up to them. In High School I had the nickname "Princess Aurora", not just for my long blonde hair, but because squirrels would sit on my lap and wild birds would perch on my finger. This is one of the first wild animals that I've had any troubles with! :-(

[Grateful for Hope]

44. Maybe it isn't you, Lorien

Maybe he wants to be the only one in your life, and he senses your love for your other cats.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

41. How's he doing today?