The gun issue

[democratreformed]

I read somewhere on here that rural voters have a different relationship with guns than urban voters. So, that got me to thinking....

From a personal perspective, this is exactly true.
We (I) don't view guns a evil things like some people do. Maybe if I was a "city person" and subjected to daily gun violence, it might be different. Being a "country gal" though, I see guns as a "tool". A couple of years ago, I had a bobcat eating my chickens. It took out one a night until it ate 30 or so chickens. I finally began to bait it. One night, I came home from eating out at the local DQ and snuck over to my baiting area. I had my .38 ready. I saw its head as it was eating the chicken I bought for it at the grocery store.

Unfortunately, I can't hit the broad side of a barn with that pistol. It was a Christmas present and I have never been able to hit ANYTHING with it. I should've gone and got a shotgun. But, oh well. I finally started baiting it with chickens packed with rat poison. Finally, my chickens stopped dying.

We (my husband and I) have several guns - most of which are used for hunting. But, when he's away from home, it sometimes gives me comfort to know they are there if I need them.

After saying all that, I also have no problem with gun control. It doesn't bother me to have to register my guns or have a background check before I get a new one. And, I agree that gun shows should not be able to circumvent the rules. Oh, and flea markets too. I see people selling guns at flea markets all the time. You KNOW they don't do background checks and registrations.

The question is: How do we get the majority of other rural gun owners to view these laws as something good? How do we convince them that Democrats (as a group) don't want to "take their guns away"? I think I finally convinced my dad by saying "Look, I'm a Democrat and I wouldn't let them take our guns away either". And, as my husband said this year, "How long have they been supposed to take our guns away?" I said, "Oh, at least 30 or 40 years now." How do we convince rural voters to compromise for the sake of urban voters and vice versa?

[purduejake]

1. You would think that....

The pictures and video with Kerry hunting would have helped.

[democratreformed]

3. I'm not knocking Kerry at all...

but almost everyone that I talked to thought they were staged. I thought they were pretty good and I loved the pics of him with the Carhart jacket too (unrelated to this issue, I know). I guess maybe it was a "too late" type of thing. If there were pics of a long-time hunting tradition, it might have been better. I don't know.

[xmas74]

16. I love Carhart jackets.

They are so warm in the winter (and I don't feel bad when they get dirty).

[skippythwndrdog]

6. Not when they were so obviously staged.

Heck, in an interview, Senator Kerry said that he used a double barrel to hunt deer with, and that he crawled around on his stomach to do it. He also didn't know what his biggest buck was. The Senator tried to look like a hunter, and was ridiculed by many in the hunting community for it. Perhaps a slightly different tactic of truthfully saying that he had been on bird hunts, but had not tried deer hunting yet. I don't know. This whole thing sucks.

[sandnsea]

22. Where?

I heard stories that said he said that, but I never once saw any legitimate article where he said that and I followed the campaign daily.

By the way, my husband has crawled up to a ledge on his belly to shoot deer more times than I can count. Some folks don't hunt in tree stands.

What really sucks is the number of people who will repeat right wing talking points more readily than they will knock them down. Doesn't matter who runs if rural Democrats keep cowering to the noise machine tactics.

[benEzra]

28. The problem is, 80% of us gun owners ARE NOT HUNTERS

so saying you'll "allow" my wife and I to own high-powered hunting rifles and over-and-under shotguns (which we have exactly zero use for), but that you'll fight to confiscate her 15-round 9mm defensive handgun and our modern-looking small-caliber rifles, is going to alienate us faster than just about anything else you could propose.

I've written at length about this problem here, if anyone is interested:

Democrats and the Gun Issue: Now What?

DU's "virginiamountainman" also posted his insights on how neoprohibitionists alienate gun owners here:

Alienated Rural Democrat

If the mods permit, I may post my essay in this thread as a response to the OP.

[blue neen]

2. Tomorrow is the opening of deer season here in PA.

All the schools have a holiday tomorrow; it's a state tradition. I personally have just about the same opinion as you do about guns.

For the Democratic party, the issue is just a loser--period. I think it should not be part of the party platform. There were people in PA who voted for Bush on that issue ALONE. I worked at the polls on Nov. 2. I talked to voters--this is a big issue in PA, WV, VA, OH, MI also. I'm sure there are many others.

My husband is at our camp in the mountains. He'll be up at 4 a.m. to try to bag a deer. We will use it for the meat.

[democratreformed]

4. Ha! Our schools had theirs a couple of weeks ago.

I thought we were the only state that had that tradition!!

My hubby and son went today. They didn't see anything though. My hubby got one a couple of weeks ago. We use it for the meat too. We love it. We were completely out too. So, it's great to finally have some more.

[TheMightyFavog]

5. We have schools that get the entire week of Deer season off.

A number of rural schools in WI do this.

[cattleman22]

7. RE: Dems and taking away guns

""How do we convince them that Democrats (as a group) don't want to "take their guns away"?""



The first step would be to get prominent congressional Democrats from proclaiming they want to ban private ownership of guns. Unfortunately, this problem was self created.

[sandnsea]

8. I think it's suburban gun owners

I think rural gun owners do understand gun regulation. Because they DO view guns differently and know that guns are to kill with. I think it's the suburban white male who buys a gun, or gets obsessed with guns, because he doesn't feel tough and manly sitting at a computer all day. I would bet a really thorough study would find these guys to be the most vocal NRA types. Guns are bought mostly by people in areas with no crime, stolen, and brought to inner cities. People aren't scouring rural America to steal guns.

[democratreformed]

9. Personal experience tell me something different.

I combatted the gun issue with many many people around here. My husband tried too - with his brother-in-law and their family - to no avail. I was able to convince my dad and brother that their guns were not in danger of being taken away. It is a BIG issue here.

As far as people scouring rural America to steal guns, that's a big thing here too. Our guns were stolen many years ago. My brother-in-law's guns were stolen several years ago. My dad's guns were stolen last year. Many, many rural men now have gun safes AND alarm systems - primarily to protect their guns.

[sandnsea]

23. You're in Arkansas?

My family is in Arkansas. My dad and brother don't own guns, don't hunt, don't care. My brother-in-law has his guns locked up because he blames gun owners for gun accidents to kids. Never heard of a rampant gun stealing problem in Arkansas.

Sounds like a bunch of rationalizations to me, which is mostly what the NRA crap is, rationalizations by men who measure their manhood with guns.

[benEzra]

29. Stereotyping like that is Exhibit A of what NOT to do...

Sounds like a bunch of rationalizations to me, which is mostly what the NRA crap is, rationalizations by men who measure their manhood with guns.

Sure, that's why my wife owns a 9mm handgun and a Russian SKS carbine, because she's a "man who measures her manhood with a gun"?

This is precisely the sort of stereotyping and misunderstanding that hurts the party among gun owners.

[Township75]

10. If this party wants gun registration, it is going to lose more voters...

including myself. I don't think there is a way to make rural gun owners view that "as something good."

While John Kerry may not want to confiscate all guns, it doesn't mean a politician in the future (from either party) wouldn't want to confiscate all guns with the aide of a registration list. Additionally, I believe only a few states require registration, and they don't have shit to show for it crime wise (i.e. Maryland, New Jersey, and CA come to mind).

I would propose Democrats endorse closing the gun show loophole with Insta-check, like many states already have. Additionally, our leaders need to support removing gun control that clearly doesn't work. Chicago and DC are the murder capitols of the US, despite bans on hand guns; why aren't any Dems calling for the removal of the bans? There sure as hell havent helped any. When was the last time people who claimed to support common sense gun control actually suggested removing gun control that hasn't worked? Doing stuff like this would help us a great deal.

[illflem]

11. The way for the Dem's to win the gun vote

is to alert the hunting and fishing crowd to the undeniable fact that the GOP consistently gives away their sacred hunting and fishing grounds to private industry at an alarming rate.
Who wants to go hunting amongst the oil wells?
With a strategy like this many gun owners may realize they've been closet tree-huggers all their lives...

[cattleman22]

12. RE:"Who wants to go hunting amongst the oil wells?"

where do most people hunt? Where I am from in the east, most people hunt on private property. For the most part, hunting is prohibited on public owned land except for some local culling hunts.

[illflem]

13. In the west

most hunt on US Forest Service or BLM land

[benEzra]

14. It's also good to keep in mind...

that although hunters are an important part of the gun vote, they are only a small part. There are roughly 13-16 million licensed hunters in the U.S. and 65-80 million gun owners at large, so roughly 4 out of 5 gun owners are not licensed hunters. Which means that as long as the party is trying to ban nonhunting guns (like over-10-round handguns, or low-powered long guns with nontraditional styling), support for hunting is not itself going to be sufficient to defuse the broader gun issue.

FWIW, my wife and I both strongly support hunting but are not hunters ourselves; we own guns for defensive purposes, informal target shooting, and historical interest.

[ribbit]

15. Gun control will keep the Dems out of office

And there's the rub. Tom Foley and the 1994 Assault Weapons Ban were undeniably what gave away the House and Senate majorities to the Greedy Old Plutocrats. The Speaker lost his seat. A whole bunch of safe Democratic districts went over.

A lot of normally apathetic voters believed with quite a bit of justification that this was the first step towards banning and confiscating guns in general. The bills that Schumer, Feinstein, Metzenbaum, Boxer, and Kennedy had lined up included 10000% taxes on ammunition and parts, lifetime buying limits and a number of other provisions lent some serious credence to the idea.

The gun owners felt that a cherished right was under attack. They voted accordingly and have now been mobilized against us.

Attempts to split the gun owners into the good-but-backwards-hick hunters and the evil-baby-killing gun nuts have failed so far and probably will continue to. If the Dems ever hope to get back into the race they will have to rip gun control out of the party platform.

[sendero]

17. I've been saying this..

.... forever but there are lots of people who seem to think that you can stop a criminal from committing a gun crime by making posession of the gun illegal.

The stupidity of it all is staggering.

[joshorton]

18. Control is not a good word

Democrats and leftists should be trying to change the image of the issue. I think a better way of describing this issue would be gun responsibility. To own a gun is a right that most people have (except felony criminals). I don't believe that this issue should be removed from the platform at all. Lets be real about this democrats believe in a few basic rules:

1) If you own a gun, your fellow citizens should be able to know this. Its their right to know as much as it is your right to own one.

2) There are some good national laws on the books. A study should be done to understand the interstate sale of guns and what can be done to help know where guns are going.

3) The biggest issue we can pull people in with is that the sale of guns from this country and outside into this country is a major problem when you look at it though the lens of terrorism. The number one killing machine in the hands of terrorists are guns, not bombs or chemicals. We should be more willing to regulate our guns leaving this country than we are now. Its a security issue for Americans traveling abroad and our soldiers. The PATRIOT Act never even mentioned guns, but did talk about the harms of box cutters.

Democrats should say we support responsible ownership of guns. But we must also take into account the rights of non-owners. Knowing is a right. The biggest issue is that some are not being responsible owners, mostly people trying to make a quick buck that puts citizens here and abroad in harms way. We must find a way to stop illegal sales of guns that could potentially harm innocent people and undermine the rights of responsible gun owners. Working with all levels of government is the only way to know what must be done. Current gun owners must be part of this discussion.

I myself am a hunter and a gun owner. I agree that John Kerry's hunting pics were bad. I say if he doesn't hunt thats fine, but don't dress up a politician and say they are something they are not. Its more insulting to do that than to just be honest.

[RiDuvessa]

20. I don't understand.

Where and how you get the idea that somebody else has the right to know if I own a gun.

[Township75]

21. Where is it written that you have the right to know who owns a gun?

The police and gun sellers have the right to know who is legally able to buy a gun, and that is it.

That is a really dangerous idea you are promoting...that lets every criminal know what house to rob when the owners are gone so they can get guns they can't buy legally.

[Qanisqineq]

19. I am really tired of the whole gun control issue

I don't like guns at all but I never thought taking them away from people was the right idea. Owning a gun is very important in other cultures as well and I see lots of democrats say, "don't take their guns away from them!" but *seem* to say the opposite about guns here in the USA.

I think gun owners main fear is we want to take all guns away. I see no reason to take guns used for hunting away. I don't hunt but there is a need for it with all the predators we've killed off (as an animal lover, it can take time to come to terms with this). I think guns just need to be registered, the screening process better to look for convicted felons, and I see absolutely no reason to make or own assault weapons. That is what they are called, right? The ones recently un-banned?

Anyway, to sum it up, I think we need to frame this in a different way. Making guns illegal isn't going to keep them out of the blackmarket.

Edit: typo and poorer wording that what is there now! (It sounded like I said give felons guns) :p

[benEzra]

32. Some thoughts...

I think gun owners main fear is we want to take all guns away. I see no reason to take guns used for hunting away. I don't hunt but there is a need for it with all the predators we've killed off (as an animal lover, it can take time to come to terms with this). I think guns just need to be registered, the screening process better to look for convicted felons

Actually, gun owners are mainly afraid that Feinstein et al want to take away the guns we own, not all guns.

As nonhunters, my wife and I have absolutely no use for hunting rifles, duck shotguns, etc. We do own a couple of handguns and a few modern-looking rifles, most of which Feinstein has promised to confiscate if she can get the votes.

I see absolutely no reason to make or own assault weapons. That is what they are called, right? The ones recently un-banned?

Nothing was un-banned. The 1994 "assault weapons ban" raised the price on full-capacity replacemente magazines for defensive handguns (but did not outlaw them), required that newly manufactured civiian rifles with protruding handgrips had to have smooth muzzles and non-adjustable stocks, and prohibited the marketing of civilian rifles under any of 19 banned names. Many people mistakenly think that the law banned automatic weapons like military AK-47's and Uzi's, but those weapons are controlled by the National Firearms Act of 1934 and had nothing to do with the 1994 ban.

The "assault weapon" bait-and-switch was the main albatross around the party's neck on the gun issue in 2000 and 2004, and helped cost Gore and Edwards their own home states in those elections.

[benEzra]

30. (self deleted--double post) (n/t)

[benEzra]

31. Most gun owners don't hunt

The way for the Dem's to win the gun vote is to alert the hunting and fishing crowd to the undeniable fact that the GOP consistently gives away their sacred hunting and fishing grounds to private industry at an alarming rate.

Who wants to go hunting amongst the oil wells?

With a strategy like this many gun owners may realize they've been closet tree-huggers all their lives...

Only a small minority (~20%) of gun owners are hunters. Many of those who do also own nonhunting-style guns. While the pro-environment message will certainly resonate among the minority who hunt, it is overshadowed by the endless promises to restrict or outlaw defensive-style firearms.

Defensive purposes are by far the #1 reason why American gun owners own firearms; recreational target shooting is #2 and hunting is a distant third, IIRC.

[Odin2005]

24. The problem as I see it...

...is that the Rethugs will allways fall back on thier BS that we are trying to take away people's guns. Excuse me? Gun registration, having technology that allows only the owner to use the gun, and keep assult rifles and submachine guns from everyone except collectors who would have to get a special license equils letting noone have guns? We need to make this an issue of public saftey, and stop the RW BS that we are going to take away people's guns.

[benEzra]

33. Assault rifles and submachine guns are already restricted

by the National Firearms Act of 1934, a law gun owners generally support. All automatic weapons are just as tightly controlled as hand grenades, bombs, silencers, and 105mm howitzers.

[Lefty48197]

25. Great question

"How do we convince them that Democrats (as a group) don't want to "take their guns away"? "

Getting groups like the NRA and GOA to stop lying and trying to stir up hysteria would be an excellent start. I'm a Democrat, and I only want nuts and criminals to be without guns. Others should have a choice.

Couldn't you have arranged to have the bobcat trapped and relocated? 30 Chicken days is enough time to arrange for that!

[Chicanery]

26. I'm also a rural voter

The only things I've ever killed with my husband's guns were paper targets, but I agree with him that, in our area, with coyotes and other pesky critters roaming around, we need to have guns around the house to keep the varmints under control.

Having lived previously in an urban area, I can see that viewpoint as well. When you hear gunshots off in the distance on a regular basis in your own neighborhood, you never really feel quite safe and it can easily seem as though the guns are the problem rather than the rampant poverty, gangs, and drug use.

I think the problem with reconciling the city and country dwellers is that, though only those who commit violent crimes against their fellow humans with guns (or threaten to do so) should forfeit their right to own guns, gun laws do nearly as little to prevent the violent offenders from acquiring guns as they do to prevent them from committing violence. Meanwhile, law-abiding gun-owners find it more and more difficult to acquire guns.

The only real way to solve the problem of gun violence in America would be through an arduous cultural shift. Economic and racial injustice would have to end and the culture would have to find better ways of solving problems without resorting to violence.

[Kevin75]

27. gunshows

People at gunshows dont actually circumvent the law. Its not federal law doesnt apply there. All waiting periods must be observed and if required by the state background checks must be done. I know of people busted by the BATFE for not abiding by these laws so its not like the gov isnt checking. Legally there is nothing wrong with gunshows.

[benEzra]

34. Democrats and the Gun Issue--Now What?

Please see this essay from the DU Guns forum:

Dems and the Gun Issue--Now What?

I'd post it here, but it's quite long so it'd probably be better to just post the link.

[57_TomCat]

35. I was raised in rural Georgia

Guns were a daily part of life on the family farm. I do not recall a single day my grandfather did not have a loaded rifle or shotgun between the seats of his pickup truck. Next to the farmhouse backdoor were several more, loaded with barrels pointed down. I had several in my room as well. All available if needed for pests, sport or defense. My first rifle was given to me at 12. I kept it AND .22 ammunition in the closet in my room.

This close proximity to guns did not in any way cause me mental distress. Instead they were simply tools to be used as needed for whatever purpose required them. I often would take my own rifle or shotgun out in the woods for long walks and plinking sessions on the creek. Many pests were dispatched as well including wild dogs running cows, coyotes too close to the farmhouse, poisonous snakes too close to the house, crows interfering with the game birds and more. Business as usual. It often went to school as well. Some prime small game hunting was available in the fields around the school. The guns were left in the principals office.

A military assignment in NYC allowed me to meet my first wife. She was scared to death of guns in general having never had reason or opportunity to learn about them. All she knew were they were used by crooks and cops. She took to them like a duck to water and truly embraced the rural lifestyle when brought down to the farm. She kept her own .22 revolver to protect her goats, show chickens, show rabbits and such from the critters of the night. She accepted them as tools as well.

I can not begin to fathom the chasm between the city folks and the country people. It scares me as being a divide to never be crossed. The Democratic Party has been successful in the larger urban areas and metroplexes. This success mirrors the fears of the cities and many democratic leaders have taken personal tragedy and turned it into anti-gun rhetoric that scares those without the city biases. I am afraid the democratic party will continue to lose at the national level as a result of this misguided policy. I for one consider it for every vote I make.

As for now...I no longer hunt but like benEzra I own guns for sport and defense. I have military style "assault" weapons and pistols for competitions. I currently live in an area frequented by hurricanes and know first hand what disaster can do to people. The looters come out and the cops are stretched too thin to help. 911 calls that are attempted on phones that do not work just prove that an individual must be prepared for both the good and bad. I lived in NYC (Brooklyn)from 1976 through 78. I was there during the infamous power failure. My guns were in Georgia. Never had I felt so helpless when I saw first hand some of the rioting and fires near Flushing Ave at the old Navy Yard where I was stationed.

By the way. I saw the photos and Kerry looked like a dufus being poorly directed. The right had a field day with those photos and it cost us. The fact that people such as Kennedy and Feinstein have indicated "sniper" guns are being used for nefarious purposes leads me to believe the hunting guns will go as well if they have their way. We will all lose if that happens. :(

[53 Jubilee]

36. 57_TomCat, you are so right,

The trouble comes when folks try to tell others what type of firearm they can own. Oh, you can have hunting guns, we just want to ban "Assault Weapons" and make you register your pistols. The divide between rural and urban will stand as long as Feinstein's anti-gun bias remains in the party platform.