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Broken_Hero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-20-06 03:10 AM
Original message
Question....
I have a .41 revolver, and the ammo for the beast is killing me big time. Its bout 33 dollars at Bass Pro for 50 rounds. I got it, because a buddy of mine told me it was a collectible, and therein lies my question.

Is a .41 a hot commodity, or even a decent handgun? I have practiced, and its decent, a bit heavy(thats to be expected though). Its a Ruger Redhawk, and I was wondering, if its feasible to trade it off for a smaller handgun, like say a .357, or is the .41 worth more than that? I have never been to gun shows, and thats where my bud has told me to go, but I'm skeptical. I'm afraid I'm going to get hosed in a trade, cause my knowledge is very limited in that area. I haven't been able to find decent info online, and I thought some of you might be able to give some insight.

If you can give me some insight, it will be appreciated, thanks...:)
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krispos42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-20-06 06:16 AM
Response to Original message
1. The .41 Magnum never was a huge hit
In fact, Ruger doesn't make the Redhawk anymore in the .41, only in the Blackhawk model. There is nothing wrong with the power of the cartridge if you are planning on hunting big game. It's a bit more powerful than a .357 and less powerful than the .44, both of which are suitable for taking deer. It is considered a little bit heavy for self-defense, but what you will hit will stay hit!

The price for the ammo does not sound too horrible. A lot of the good-quality handgun ammo, especially for a Magnum, costs that much. Winchester's MSRP for a box of 20 hunting bullets in .41 Mag is $17.75, which is more per round than the stuff you got.

If you want a decently-powered gun that has lots of cheap ammo available, get yourself a 9mm Parabellum because there is plenty of military-surplus ammo floating around for ten or fifteen cents a round. It is usually found in autoloading pistols, but you can get revolvers in 9mm as well. Ruger makes a Blackhawk model that had one cylinder for .357 Mag/.38 Special, and one for 9mm.

You can find the going price for your gun on firearm auction sites, perhaps. I checked out www.gunbroker.com and typed in ".41 Magnum". A single Ruger Redhawk came up with a high bid of $490, 4 bids total. Since they don't make them anymore, they might be worth a little bit more, especially if in good shape. $400 as a guesstimate sounds pretty good.

You might be able to trade in your Redhawk for, say, a lightly-used 9mm pistol straight-up. You could troll a gun show making this offer and see if anybody bites. It is coming up on deer season and you might find a stand hunter looking for something for close-in work.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=58311876

You can also, if you wanted to save money in the long run, load your own ammuntion. For practice, you could load up some lower-power rounds that fire cheap all-lead bullets. Easy on the wallet, easy on the wrist. By using the brass several times you can save a fair amount of money as well. It would cost a couple of hundred bucks to get set up with the press, dies, scale, and consumables, but then you'd start saving money.
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Broken_Hero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-20-06 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Thanks for the info...
I have a 9mm all ready, but a 9mm IMO isn't very good with stopping power, but I use the light shells from WM. Speaking of 9mm rounds, do they make a shot shell for the 9mm? My bud says they do, but I haven't been able to find any. When I was at Bass Pro I say .44 rounds//45 rounds for about 12 bucks for 50 rounds...I had to go to the speciality side of the store, to look at .41 rounds...but perhaps those .44/.45 rounds were lighter loads.

I like the .41, don't get me wrong, I just wish there was a lighter/cheaper round I could use with it, so I could get my practice time in. The first time I got .41 rounds, my wifes friend from work makes his own and I got 100 rounds for 30 bucks, which was good...but he sold his gear, and doesn't load his own anymore.

My father has been wanting to give me his loading equipment, but I am still a relative newbie to "guns." I hunted/shot when I was growing up, on camping trips with my father, but it was very limited. I got my first firearm in 2004, a 12 gauge single shot, for vermin, and home protection(thats a long story there). Since then, I have gotten a few more firearms the .41, a 9mm, and a few others, but my experience with loading is...nothing, zero. Damn, I'm still in the target practice mode! With the 9mm I'm decent from 20ft away, can't hit bullseye's on command, but I'm around the bullseye...with the .41 I'm still a bit shaky with it.

I think I could get more for my .41 than a 9mm...the usually running price I see for 9mm is around 200 dollars, new. I haven't priced many firearms at pawn shops, but again, I'm relatively new to this...:) But, thanks for the info, the links were helpful...:hi:
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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-20-06 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Thoughts...
Edited on Fri Oct-20-06 05:18 PM by benEzra
Thanks for the info...

I have a 9mm all ready, but a 9mm IMO isn't very good with stopping power, but I use the light shells from WM.

What make/model of 9mm? If your pistol is rated for +P or +P+ ammunition (higher chamber pressure than the original 9mm spec, which dates to the early 1900's), those fall about halfway between a standard-pressure 9mm load and a .357 in terms of energy. All Glock 9mm's are rated for +P+, for example. My favorite 9mm load is Cor-Bon's +P 115gr JHP, which does about 1350 feet per second/466 ft-lb out of a full-size pistol (a little less out of a compact).

http://www.sportsmansguide.com/cb/cb.asp?a=92043

Speaking of 9mm rounds, do they make a shot shell for the 9mm? My bud says they do, but I haven't been able to find any.

Yes. CCI makes them, and I think you may be able to get them at Wal-Mart. The shot is contained in a blue transparent capsule that allows the round to feed through a pistols' magazine. They don't have enough oomph to cycle the slide of a pistol, though, so it's manual operation for any second shots.

When I was at Bass Pro I say .44 rounds//45 rounds for about 12 bucks for 50 rounds...I had to go to the speciality side of the store, to look at .41 rounds...but perhaps those .44/.45 rounds were lighter loads.

I like the .41, don't get me wrong, I just wish there was a lighter/cheaper round I could use with it, so I could get my practice time in. The first time I got .41 rounds, my wifes friend from work makes his own and I got 100 rounds for 30 bucks, which was good...but he sold his gear, and doesn't load his own anymore.

My father has been wanting to give me his loading equipment, but I am still a relative newbie to "guns." I hunted/shot when I was growing up, on camping trips with my father, but it was very limited. I got my first firearm in 2004, a 12 gauge single shot, for vermin, and home protection(thats a long story there). Since then, I have gotten a few more firearms the .41, a 9mm, and a few others, but my experience with loading is...nothing, zero. Damn, I'm still in the target practice mode! With the 9mm I'm decent from 20ft away, can't hit bullseye's on command, but I'm around the bullseye...with the .41 I'm still a bit shaky with it.

Probably has more to do with the volume of production. .45 and .44 are much more common than .41. It's also possible that the only .41 loads you can find are high-profit-margin premium hunting loads, whereas for the other calibers you can get cheaper plinking ammo.

With rare calibers like the .41, reloading is often the cheapest way to go, but you may also be able to find more economically priced ammunition on the Internet.

Here's some lead plinking ammo for $16 for 50 rounds, plus shipping (scroll down to .41 magnum):

http://www.georgia-arms.com/pistol.htm

Not as cheap as 9mm, but better than $33/50. Disclaimer--I've never dealt with Georgia Arms myself, but have heard good things about them on other gun forums.

I think I could get more for my .41 than a 9mm...the usually running price I see for 9mm is around 200 dollars, new. I haven't priced many firearms at pawn shops, but again, I'm relatively new to this... :) But, thanks for the info, the links were helpful... :hi:

You might think about getting a quality .22 revolver or pistol. .22 ammunition is like $2.00 for 50 rounds, or $20.00 for a 500-round brick, so you wouldn't have to shoot a lot to recover the price of the new gun in ammo costs...beats the heck out of $33 for 50 rounds. .22 is also more pleasant to shoot if you're fairly new to handguns, since you have less recoil and muzzle blast to deal with. (Call me a wimp, but I use both earplugs AND earmuffs even when shooting 9mm.)

Good resource on improving your shooting:

http://72.14.209.104/search?q=cache:RYLKxAKPuioJ:www.recguns.com/Sources/VIIIA3.html (might want to save this cache since it looks like the recguns server is down).
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Broken_Hero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-20-06 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Hey, I was hoping you would show up...:)
Edited on Fri Oct-20-06 05:26 PM by petersond
For you first question/reply....

I have a Ruger P-85, 9mm x 19. From what I've read online, and from what my bud has told me, its a standard firearm for LEO. I'm going with my friend on this, he is in his mid 50's, vietnam vet, and he told me stopping power is important, and a 9mm isnt' really good for stopping power. What I mean by stopping power...say for example...across the street from me, my neighbor has 10cows, and one is a bull...its been bucking fence the last two weeks...if that animal broke free, and came at me, stopping power would be a plus. I believe if I tried protecting myself with 9mm the bull in question wouldn't stop, but be more pissed off.

Back home in Alaska, we have a black bear problem big time, and throw in Brown Bears(normally twice the size if not bigger than black bears) it makes for some interesting run ins...my father always carried a .357 for protection whenever we went hiking/camping...he told me it wasn't enough to "kill a bear persay" but packed enough of a punch to make the bear think twice. Thats what I mean by stopping power....

For your second question/reply....

The local WM doesn't have them, and the guy looked at me like I was from the moon when I asked about 9mm shot shell...and when I went to Bass Pro last year, I totally spaced off looking for 9mm shot shell, I was in the mode of "looking for .41 rounds/and xmas shopping at the time" and a I plain forgot. I plan on heading back up there next month...and I'll definately look into it. The main reason why I want shot shell is for snakes...I have come across some very aggressive water mochassins...man, they are not afraid of anything, and I believe a shot shell for the 9mm will do good in defending myself from the snakes. Also, I have had numerous run ins with Copperheads during my daily walks...but, only 2 that were aggressive....

For you third question/reply...

I agree, I think its because the .44 and .45 are more popular the rounds are cheaper...I had the oppurtunity to get the .41 or the .44 and my bud told me to get the .41 because its more a collectors item...and I didn't think I would get into the firearm lifestyle that far(meaning I wouldn't shoot often), but it has gotten me, and I enjoy the plinking/target practicing...:)

For the 4th question/reply...

Yeah, I agree...I need to get out more into the outdoor/fiream groups in my area and find out who makes there own...I got a friend from here, but his knowledge of the firearms is about the same as mine...I figured he would be more in the "know" than me, but he is learning just like I am...I am leaning towards calling around Gun Smith shops and what not, and see who all does their own loading.

For you last question/reply...

I am not afraid of recoil in the least bit...I was thinking of getting a .22 magnum rifle, from walmart for pliking, but the 9mm is pretty decent...my main concern was trying to become "proficient" with the .41, and me griping about price...:) I wish there was a lighter load for the .41, my bud tells me that .38 rounds can be used for the .357, and some other handguns can use lighter loads, but not the .41(to my knowledge, or Bass Pro's gun gurus). I like the .41, just the ammo kills me...I haven't fired it..in...over a year...been messing around with the 9mm more often. I got 6 rounds of .41 left, and thats it...I've been thinking of getting another handgun with stopping power, thats reasonable with ammo costs...but I get the impression(from you), that there are heavier/better loads of the 9mm, for stopping power...

on edit: Speaking of recoil, I have a pump action 12 gauge, and I can shoot it with one arm and hit whatever target I'm aiming at, so recoil isnt' much an issue with me...I'm a rather big/strong man...and don't fear the recoil much...I'm a patient shooter also.
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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-20-06 09:04 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. In that case...
I have a Ruger P-85, 9mm x 19. From what I've read online, and from what my bud has told me, its a standard firearm for LEO. I'm going with my friend on this, he is in his mid 50's, vietnam vet, and he told me stopping power is important, and a 9mm isnt' really good for stopping power. What I mean by stopping power...say for example...across the street from me, my neighbor has 10cows, and one is a bull...its been bucking fence the last two weeks...if that animal broke free, and came at me, stopping power would be a plus. I believe if I tried protecting myself with 9mm the bull in question wouldn't stop, but be more pissed off.

Back home in Alaska, we have a black bear problem big time, and throw in Brown Bears(normally twice the size if not bigger than black bears) it makes for some interesting run ins...my father always carried a .357 for protection whenever we went hiking/camping...he told me it wasn't enough to "kill a bear persay" but packed enough of a punch to make the bear think twice. Thats what I mean by stopping power....

The Ruger P-85 and P-89 are definitely strong enough for +P/+P+ ammunition. HOWEVER, while IMHO high-pressure 9mm loads are quite sufficient for defense against humans, humans don't weigh a thousand pounds...I think if you are concerned with defense against large animals, your friend is right--9mm is marginal at best, and definitely inferior to .41 magnum.

The problem is, all handguns are compromises between power and portability; a typical deer rifle is about seven times as powerful as a 9mm, and roughly three times as powerful as a .44 magnum.

If I knew I was going to be charged by a bull or a bear, I'd want your shotgun, loaded with slugs...but since you presumably want something more portable, the .41 isn't actually a bad choice. It's about twice as powerful as 9mm, and is roughly halfway between .357 and .44 magnum. But that 12-gauge is .729 caliber/18.5mm, and is between two and three times as powerful as .44...

9mm - http://www.remington.com/products/ammunition/ballistics/results/default.aspx?type=pistol&cal=6
.357 - http://www.remington.com/products/ammunition/ballistics/results/default.aspx?type=pistol&cal=5
.41 - http://www.remington.com/products/ammunition/ballistics/results/default.aspx?type=pistol&cal=15
.44 - http://www.remington.com/products/ammunition/ballistics/results/default.aspx?type=pistol&cal=16

I am not afraid of recoil in the least bit...I was thinking of getting a .22 magnum rifle, from walmart for pliking, but the 9mm is pretty decent...my main concern was trying to become "proficient" with the .41, and me griping about price... :) I wish there was a lighter load for the .41, my bud tells me that .38 rounds can be used for the .357, and some other handguns can use lighter loads, but not the .41(to my knowledge, or Bass Pro's gun gurus). I like the .41, just the ammo kills me...I haven't fired it..in...over a year...been messing around with the 9mm more often. I got 6 rounds of .41 left, and thats it...I've been thinking of getting another handgun with stopping power, thats reasonable with ammo costs...but I get the impression(from you), that there are heavier/better loads of the 9mm, for stopping power...

Definitely, but not for big animals.

on edit: Speaking of recoil, I have a pump action 12 gauge, and I can shoot it with one arm and hit whatever target I'm aiming at, so recoil isnt' much an issue with me...I'm a rather big/strong man...and don't fear the recoil much...I'm a patient shooter also.

Sounds like what you have (.41 magnum and 12-gauge pump) are actually pretty good choices for the animals you are worried about. Keep the 9mm and use it for target practice, and it's an excellent gun for defense against human predators, but not big animals.

There's a gun-shop joke about a guy who comes into a gun shop with a .38 revolver, and asks the gunsmith to optimize it is as defensive sidearm for bear country. The gunsmith says "OK, I'll remove the sights, bob the hammer, and fit it with smooth wooden grips." Owner says, "Why?" Gunsmith says, "So it won't hurt so much when the bear shoves it up your ass..."

Definitely keep the .41...
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krispos42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-20-06 09:27 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. More thoughts :-)
Nothing wrong with a P85, I don't think. I know Ruger updated it a few years later, but if it works, then why mess with sucess? You'll have to check the owner's manual to see if you can use +P ammo safely.

If you are worried about a charging bull, then you should definately run and hide. Barring that, keep that .41 Mag handy with a good-quality hunting bullet.

A full-metal-jacket 9mm round will actually penerate flesh pretty deeply, but the hole will not be particularly big, and 9mms, while having good energy, have less momentum (thump) than a heavier bullet of the same energy. Energy is a function of velocity squared, while momentum is only a function of velocity. A non-scientific unit of momentum is the "power factor", which shooters uses as a quick-and-dirty impact guide, and is simply the bullet weight in grains times the velocity in feet per second. It defines how hard the bullet hits (and how hard the gun bucks when fired), where energy defines how much damage is done. A bullet that hits harder is more likely to make the person being shot aware that he has been shot, and is more likely to have negative psychological effects on the shootee such as panic, fear, flight, and/or surrender.

Using an expanding bullet in your 9mm will make a larger wound and will dump the energy and momentum faster than a non-expanding bullet, so there is both a larger wound channel and a sharper impact. Any expanding bullet from a major manufacturer will do the job well, for they are optimized for anti-personal use. Federal Hydra-Shok, Remington Golden Sabre, Winchester Silvertip, Speer Gold Dot, and Hornady TAP-FPD are all quality self-defense ammunition. It's the stuff the police use.

But they are designed to only penetrate about 12-15 inches of flesh, which is how far a bullet must go in a person to guarantee reaching vital organs. They also typically expand to about .60 caliber (about 15mm) while doing so. This is good for upright humans, not not real good for half-ton bulls!

The .41 Mag will expand more while penetrating deeper, so causing a larger, longer wound channel and dumping nearly twice the energy in the target.

In either case, shot placement is the key. If you're facing down that angry bull, you want to aim low in the chest and, if from a side shot, just behind the shoulders of the animal. That is where the heart and lungs are, and a good hit there will kill the bull fairly rapidly. Of course, if you have the time, go for a head shot and take out the brain, but that's a tough one.

If you load your own .41 Magnums, you can lower the power charge. There is a trick that the handloaders use for this. They buy a bag of rayon (pillow stuffing) at a hobby store, and after they prime the brass and pour in the powder, they use a snug-fitting wooden dowel to tap a wad of rayon into the case. The rayon keeps the powder by the primer for positive ignition and burns up in the barrel upon firing.

I have seen on a reloader's page that he had a load for a 170-grain bullet at 929 feet per second. This gives a muzzle energy of 325 foot-pounds, on par with 9mm loads. Compare this to the hard-hitting Winchester 240-grain hunting bullets at 1250 ft/s, which is 833 ft-lbs.

http://www.reloadammo.com/41loads.htm
http://www.winchester.com/products/catalog/handgundetail.aspx?symbol=S41PTHP&cart=NDEgUmVtIE1hZ251bQ==

You can get set up with Lee Precision loading gear not to expensively. 4-position turrent press is about $90, mechanical scale about $30, carbide reloading dies $33. A brass-trimmer is about $11 (two parts, one is $6 and one is $5) and can be used either manually or in a power drill, a case chamfering tool is $3. You might need a case-expanding tool for cast lead bullets so the lead doesnt' shave off while seating, and that is $13 and mounts in the turrent press. Buy some brass, some primers, some bullets, some powder, and a .41 Magnum reloading guide, and you're good to go. I've listed $180 in parts, plus the consumables and manual. I've used the stuff listed above to load .270 Win rifle cases, and once you set it up it's pretty simple to do. Measuring the power is the most time-consuming part. That case trimmer is a wonderful tool. Dead-on accurate, and if you buy a cheap battery-powered drill it's fast and easy.

The nice thing about the Lee press is that the turrent is removable. Once you set up the various pieces of the reloading dies it the turrent, you can buy another turrent for like $14 and set up the new turrent for a different cartridge. This way you could have one turrent for .41 Mag and one for your 9mm, and just swap them as needed. They pull right out, no problem, no tools.

http://www.leeprecision.com/cgi/catalog/browse.cgi?1161395986.296=/html/catalog/turretpress.html#ClassicTurretPress
http://www.leeprecision.com/cgi/catalog/browse.cgi?1161395986.296=/html/catalog/dies-pistol.html
http://www.leeprecision.com/cgi/catalog/browse.cgi?1161395986.296=/html/catalog/casecon.html
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Redneck Socialist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-20-06 11:08 PM
Response to Original message
7. What benEzra said.
Edited on Fri Oct-20-06 11:09 PM by Redneck Socialist
I was going to reply to this earlier, but BE beat me to it. ;-) So I'll just echo what he said. If you're interested in poking holes in bulls or bears, then yes your 9mm is underpowered. If you need to poke a hole in a human, it'll do just fine. Shot location is far more important than if you are toting a 9mm or a .45.

If you want a gun that makes a big hole, but that will be cheaper to shoot, look at a .357mag. You can shoot .38 specials through it pretty cheaply, and get some good hunting rounds if you need to power up. I don't know if it would be my first choice as a bull stopper, but it will beat your 9mm in that department. Don't ignore the .44mag either. Some of the target rounds will be fairly inexpensive.

Remember the internets are your friend. If you can't find it at Wal-fart (why the hell are you shopping there anyway?) you can order pretty much anything in the world on-line.

As for a trade in, I would be pretty confident that any decent gun shop wouldn't rip you off, bad for business and all that.
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krispos42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-21-06 02:55 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. A 44 Mag can also fire .44 Specials
Which are on par with .45 auto, which, while a substantial anti-personal round, is not a big-game crusher like the .44 Mag is. I forgot about that advantage for a minute, I got so involved in the hand-loading aspect!
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