Will Pitt enters fray on our side! Thought there would be interest!

[saracat]

From this thread!http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3598276


Hm


Why are you making this about Kerry? Seems out of place. I think you outed yourself there a bit. This is about the primaries still, right? Defend Dean at all costs. Rout your former foes.

Talk about divisive.

Who is PDA? I'm not even going to get into that. We're not worthy, we're not worthy...to have an opinion and advocate for it? Hm.

Final thoughts:

1. Whether you like it or not, whether you can wrap your mind around it or not, Dean is going to have to deal with this sooner or later. The California State Democratic Party just passed a resolution at their state convention (the largest gathering of state party Dems in the country) demanding a withdrawl from Iraq as soon as possible. New Mexico's state Dem party just did the same thing. In a couple of weeks, you're going to hear about Massachusetts and New Hampshire doing the same thing. That's three solid Blue states and one New Blue getting behind withdrawal. PDA may be nothing to you, but that's about 100 or so Electoral College votes knocking on the door.

2. Beyond the fact that advocating for withdrawal is the right thing to do, it is also prime political red meat. Bush's ratings are in the crapper, Congress is even worse off on the public opinion polls, and more than half the country for the first time believes the war was a total mistake. Meanwhile, hundreds are dying every day over there, adding to the noise at Bush's ear. It's the right issue at the right time to put the whole administration on the defensive.

But we can't have this messy ol' stuff happening now. Right?

*sigh*

Want the U.S. out of Iraq?




WilliamPitt (1000+ posts) Thu May-05-05 12:04 AM
Response to Reply #57

60. Um

Edited on Thu May-05-05 12:13 AM by WilliamPitt
Never mind.

I despair of ever understanding what motivates you. I think you are of that particular breed of Dean supporter who cannot abide anyone saying anything about or to him that involves anything other than total praise. It's too bad, really, and your lingering bitterness over Dean in the primaries colors everything you do here.

I made up my mind a long time ago to stop responding to what you post, because doing so has never been anything other than a total waste of time. I'm going to take my own advice. Flame away. You're a closed door to me.

[WildEyedLiberal]

1. That thread was ridiculous

He's right about some Dean people BTW. Their one single motivation is rabidly defending Dean and ripping down others Dems to the exclusion of all else.

[BlueIris]

2. Unfortunately, Will's observations

are apt descriptions of every Dean supporter I used to interact with. That just got so frustrating.

[LittleClarkie]

23. But isn't the person he's talking to

normally a Kerry person? Or at least a Kerriac?

I'm doing okay defending Dean, and impressing a couple of people in the process, I think.

It's just that Dean and Kerry's Iraq stance are very similar. Is this coming out now because people didn't understand that Dean only as anti-war as Kerry was, ie, wrong war at the wrong time, we need to succeed?

Did Dean really misrepresent himself? Did the RW media do it for him? Or did some people, Deaniacs included, not understand what their guy was really about?

[WildEyedLiberal]

34. At least one of the people he responded to

Has been on my ignore list for a LONG time for a VERY good reason. (I logged out to check who it was.)

[elshiva]

28. Does it describe me? If so I am sorry I frustrate you.

I am Derryiac, but I don't like to get into those "My candidate is more liberal than your candidate" debates. As far as I am concerned Dean and Kerry are very much alike politically. Oranges vs. Apples. eom

[WildEyedLiberal]

33. No, you know the Deaniacs who take every chance to hate on other Dems

You have always been great, elshiva, and it's a pity more Deaniacs aren't like you.

[elshiva]

35. Thank you! You are very wonderful yourself, WildEyedLiberal!

If more Deaniacs were sensible they would see in Kerry a lot of the same things they see in Dean. Just silly to continue the battle of Dem on Dem when we are a minority party and Dean and Kerry are both good Dems.

[whometense]

3. I find this interesting:

The California State Democratic Party just passed a resolution at their state convention (the largest gathering of state party Dems in the country) demanding a withdrawl from Iraq as soon as possible. New Mexico's state Dem party just did the same thing. In a couple of weeks, you're going to hear about Massachusetts and New Hampshire doing the same thing. That's three solid Blue states and one New Blue getting behind withdrawal.

That's TayTay's convention. TayTay, if you're reading this, are you aware of such a resolution? All for it, myself.

[TayTay]

4. TayTay plans on going hard left at the Con

I am voting to put support for Gay Marriage in the official Party platform. (I strongly support this.)

I will vote FOR the Iraq resolution. I am not being two-faced. I understand Sen. Kerry's objections to leaving and even support them. I would support the MA Con resolution as a wedge thing against Bush. (And for the sheer, amazing, wonderful chance to say, in so many words, "F*ck you Bush, from deep in the heart of Massachusetts. Bite me, you lying, squirmy, mofo warmonger.") Good thing I'm in a good mood.

[whometense]

12. You GO!!!

Wedge issue, and it's a great one. I'm not generally one for kicking someone when they're down, but we need to kick these evil bastards until they crawl back into their Texas/Wyoming bomb shelters, whence they will hopefully never emerge again.

[sandnsea]

18. Iraq divides Dems

I don't see it as a wedge against Bush at all. Iraq Withdrawal, when no plan actually calls for immediate withdrawal, divides the Democratic Party. I don't see any purpose in it, and I sure don't see it as being harmful to Bush. Iraq Catastrophe Resolution, and a demand to implement the Kerry Plan, that would be helpful. Just me I guess.

[cestpaspossible]

19. 'No permanent bases' does not divide Dems however.

[sandnsea]

22. I agree with that

Lots of ways to fight for a change in Iraq without having to get into the confusing "withdrawal", but not withdrawal, argument.

[TayTay]

29. My Cong. Rep has a plan for withdrawal

that I agree with. It's at http://www.house.gov/meehan/iraq.html
I also liked Sen. Kennedy's plan for withdrawal. (Although it has been back-burnered since the press went all woozy with Chipmunk Love over * in late January.)

I like this. I like the idea of states putting some pressure on * to do more in Iraq than just the status quo. The resolutions to withdraw are a wedge to do just that. I will vote for it.

My other Senator has not endorsed this. (Please, just for the moment, I am thinking of my other Senator as a pol from MA that I can agree or disagree with sometimes.) Sen. Kerry doesn't have any big beefs with Rep Meehan or with Sen. Kennedy over their support for withdrawal. (It's not immediate withdrawal, but gradual.) The Con vote is a way for MA Dems to pressure their Congressional delegations to remind * that his war is not popular and the people will not tolerate his incompetence over there forever. My vote, as a MA Dem, is meant to specifically and purposefully remind my other Senator from MA that Massachusetts Dems are not in favor of this war and that we would like him to speak out against it.

After all the stuff I have written in here, it almost feels bizarre to talk about Sen. Kerry as a MA pol. Supporting or not supporting a MA Dems resolution is not a deal-breaker with me for with Sen. Kerry. But I want this real bad. And I want my MA delegation to DC to know that we want this real bad. This vote would accurately reflect the will of the Dems of MA and our guys in DC should know this.

[sandnsea]

32. I don't get it

Not to be bitchy, but I don't get what's different in Meehan's plan than Kerry's plan. The only difference I see is whether it's called some sort of plan for success, or an exit strategy. The meat and potatoes is all the same. That's true of Lynn Woolsey's withdrawal plan too. It's the same as what Meehan has, which is the same as what Kerry has, which is essentially the same as what Kucinich has, except Kucinch calls for UN troops.

Isn't there some name to put on the plan that doesn't sound defeatist, but also indicates unilateralism, Iraqi authority, and no bases.

[TayTay]

36. Sigh! A foreign policy resolution is meant as a wedge

It is meant to show that the citizens of Massachusetts (or Vermont or any other state that passes them in Dem Convocations) are adamantly and vocally opposed to Bush's war.

That is what voting for this means. That is why I will vote for it. I don't see the down on this one. I want a plan that says 'Eventual Withdrawal' on it. I want Sens. Kennedy and Kerry and all the House Reps to support it. Such a thing would accurately reflect the opinion of the Dems in MA. It's a domino that needs to fall.

EDIT: That said, I have always had a bug up my ass about the Iraq War. I have admitted as much. I have always been against this war and I had real problems with Sen. Kerry's original vote. I completely understand it from an intellectual point of view. It is not a deal-breaker for me with the Senator. But I have never liked the vote. This action on my part is consistent with what I have said. I want the Senator to talk about eventually bringing the troops home. Safely.

You never asked me what the pol-watcher in me thinks of this. That is a very different thing. As a Massachusetts Democrat, I want a resolution passed on withdrawal. As a pol-watcher, well, that is a different kettle of fish.

[sandnsea]

37. I want something effective

Has nothing to do with poll watching. I want something we can rally behind and embarrass Bush with. Something that says no to a US Colonial Iraq, no to this continued botched up mess, and yes to a foreign policy that gives Iraq to the Iraqis and yes to really dealing with extremists who resort to terror. Got something catchy for that, as catchy as "Bring Them Home Now" or "Victory in Iraq". I don't. Why are there still terrorists who can set up shop in Iraq? That was what Howard Dean should have said.

I completely understand voting for an anti-occupation resolution on principle. Completely. But I do think it will be a wedge in the Democratic Party and do absolutely nothing to Bush. Just my opinion.

[TayTay]

39. Understood

I love the fact that this forum has such congeniality. We still have hugs and love after a disagreement.

That's very special!

[sandnsea]

40. But of course!!

:hug:

And that catchy thing, I'm serious. Been wracking my brains for months trying to come up with something that doesn't sound like surrender or endless war and occupation.

[TayTay]

41. Oh Lord, aren't we all

All options in Iraq just completely suck. There is no good and wonderful option. I feel that Iraq is unstable and is likely to remain that way for years to come. The best argumenton the side of keeping troops there is to ensure the safety of the people in a country we broke.

However, the other argument is that the country is in worse shape with US troops there. That argument posits that removing the US troops removes a flashpoint for the insurgency. Iraq is better of with Iraqis in charge and providing for their own saftey. Having the US there has done nothing for the Iraqi people and is the cause of most of the civilian deaths.

Sigh! I agree, there are no good options. It's a tragedy. (And I think Kerry as President would have been a great thing for Iraq. Sigh!)

[karynnj]

38. Kerry seems to have been pretty quiet on this

since his comments on the day of the Iraq election - when he said there was a lot they had to do immediately that they weren't doing and reiterated the 4 things he thought needed to be done. He also said it really was the last chance. He was noticeably not jumping on the freedom is on the move band wagon.

He more than anyone has to know the pros and cons of making the decision that we're not overall a positive force and need to just leave. It seemed from his Vietnam testimony, TV appearance etc that he was 100% convinced then that we were just adding to the overall death and destruction then. At least in January, he seemed to hold out a guarded hope that we could be helpful.

Has he said anything in the last 2 or so months? Maybe, he's giving those elected (if they can ever completely form a government) a chance. I hope he can back the resolution because it's gradual and consistent with his not wanting permanent bases. After all if you don't want to be there permanently you want to withdraw at some point. (gradually is the vaguest way) so it's not even a real change. (If he doesn't I respect him for not doing it, because at this point it would be better politically to side with Kennedy and Meehan because the right can not hate him more and it would likely differentiate him from Hillary.)

Kerry because of his position might make the issue more prominent. I think framing it as Permanent Bases - yes or no gets to the crux of whether it's an occupation.

[sandnsea]

42. His energy statement

on the floor of the senate. I don't remember if he said anything about Iraq. But he did point out that our troops are protecting oil pipelines. That the Navy was protecting oil tanker routes. And something to the affect of being reduce to begging the Saudi's for oil. I thought the comments about our troops and oil was huge, but it didn't seem to make much of an effect. I can't remember if he mentioned Iraq in that speech, but he does seem to still have security and oil and all of that on his mind. Do you think he'll say something about Iraq when it's perfectly clear that it's not going to get better?? Giving Bush every opportunity to succeed?

[kerrygoddess]

43. You are WICKED Tay Tay!

[Dr Ron]

5. The Nation has second article

The Nation posted their second letter from Dean--this time from Kucinich.

It makes no sense for the Deanies to be posting anti-Kerry stuff in response to these attacks. They are just paranoid about Kerry, but the criticism of Dean is coming from the far left of the party, not Kerry supporters.

[JI7]

6. yup, and Will Pitt worked for Kucinich and voted for Kucinich

[Dr Ron]

7. Using Progressives

One interesting line at the end of his post:

"Lastly I haven't an issue with you having an opinion that differs from Howard Dean on this matter. What I take issue with is your insinuation that Dean used progressives and hasn't been upfront about his position all along."

Actually there is some truth to Dean using Progressives. Dean did try to give the impression that he was much further to the left than he was early in the campaign. Of course if his supporters had the sense to acutally research their candidate and actually look at his statements in detail they would have realised that Dean was a poor candidate for leader of any anti-war movement.

[JohnKleeb]

9. Pitt liked Kerry also though I think primarily

and Pitt is an equal oppertunity critic, hes criticized Kucinich before too.

[JI7]

10. right, he has been critical of Kucinich and Kerry so why the fuck

do they keep attacking Kerry and those who like Kerry.

in fact some of those defending Dean are those who like Kerry such as paulk and littleclarkie.

[JohnKleeb]

11. yeah but Kerry you see is evil

;)
I dunno how I feel about this truly.

[TayTay]

31. Will Pitt is a good journalist

And a honest broker who writes 'em as he sees 'em. His article on Kerry's struggles to explain his original IWR vote was the best I ever read.

Will Pitt scored one of the first interviews after the election with Cameron Kerry, Sen. Kerry's brother. I think the family respects his opinions and view him as a straight shooter.

[sandnsea]

17. He worked for Kucinich

Briefly, not so sure that he voted for Kucinich. Will was a very strong Kerry backer.

[JohnKleeb]

24. neither am I really sure

[sandnsea]

26. I don't remember

I wouldn't be surprised if he had decided to vote for Kucinich, alot of people did. I just don't remember what he did, or if he even said.

[JohnKleeb]

27. Neither do I and I dont know how I would have voted

[JI7]

30. i remember he said he was going to vote for Kucinich

when the news of his working for Kucinich came out. it wouldn't have made much difference anyways since it's Massachusettes which Kerry was going to win anyways.

[kerrygoddess]

44. Will was a very strong Kerry supporter.

I agree. Yes he worked for Dennis for a very short time. I like Dennis far better than some of his rabid supporters who in my opinion were not too helpful in the last few months although Dennis came on board after the convention.

[JohnKleeb]

8. I am not surprised

Pitt's a great guy who Ive actually met. Hmmmm I didnt click the thread but I may have an idea who he is talking about.

[ginnyinWI]

13. to quote a phrase:

"Why can't we all just get along?" sigh.

It's my impression that Dean and Kerry are pretty close on the issues. But the perception (by some) is that Dean is really far left, and Kerry centrist. ???? :crazy: And I also don't think Kucinich is much further left than Kerry is, if at all. DK's unequivocal statements on war give that impression, though.

I think JK is just as against the war as DK, but he knows that Bush has stepped his foot into it over there, and we can't just leave. You can bet that if he were president right now he'd be doing things on that front that would be moving toward us getting out responsibly.

Well, I know that people just getting behind their candidates emotionally, and often don't really look closely at their policies. It's just too bad when they get all hopped up over it.

WE are ALL on the same SIDE, after all! And while we squabble, the Repubs are running roughshod over us all! Haha--it's like two bugs fighting each other while the spider spins its web around them both.
Crazy.

[JohnKleeb]

14. On social issues, Kerry is to Kucinich's left

from what I know. I think the perception is actually the total opposite, Kerry is quite more liberal than Dean on some issues.

[rox63]

15. Kucinich was anti-choice until fairly recently n/t

[JohnKleeb]

16. not just that but the flag burning amendment as well

He is like many democrats from that area, more moderate on social issues but liberal economically.

[ginnyinWI]

20. there are so many ways to judge someone's position

You can look a social issues or fiscal. And it depends on what questions you address. Kerry's a fiscal moderate and social liberal, I think.

I was using VoteMatch as a way to compare. They compared issues that were up in the primary season, I assume. They put Dean and Kerry on the same spot on the graph (Left-liberal), and Kucinich one step toward Populist from them, with Clark sharing his spot too. Hill and Bill were more moderate, Gore more populist. Lieberman shared the sampe spot as Hillary!? And Edwards shared the same position with David Cobb. So yeah, it all depends on the questions used, etc. I'd like to see other comparisons. I like this kind of stuff, but I know it doesn't mean much in the end.

[karynnj]

21. They also had Cheney on the line between modrate and conservative

He voted against school lunches and head start and was very anti Nelson Mandela. If he's on the border of moderate (to the left of Bush) I have a problem with the criterion! Where is Ghengis Khan?

It may be they are giving more weight to the values type issues vs the more traditional liberal - help the unfortunate - issues. This ay also be why Kerry is where he iswith Dean.

[JohnKleeb]

25. Yeah I dont think that thing is that accurate honest

and that cant be right about Cheney btw because he was known to be one of the most conservative members in congress in his day.

[kerrygoddess]

45. Yes he was anti-choice until

just a couple of years ago.

[kerrygoddess]

46. The PDA is building up steam...

They are not out to get Dean or against Dean or Kerry. This I have been told by a good friend who knows the founder of the PDA very, very well.

They are sponsoring JK's Kids First and many other other good works. Their goal is to be more inclusive and it's my understanding that they feel Dean can put some pressure on this issue. I'm not sure that I agree, but...

The founder of the PDA worked for the Kucinich campaign and then worked for JK after the convention. I know he has a lot of respect for JK, as does also Will Pitt.

I've been keeping my friend appraised of the dust ups here on the whole PDA/Dean mess. I'm sure Will Pitt is too as he is now working for them.

Hopefully this will blow over soon.

[TayTay]

47. If it's a process fight, then that's okay

Fighting about what the policy should be is a good thing. It would be nice to have a fight (but not an all out bloodletting) that clarifies the issues. The whole Steney Hoyer dust-up with MoveOn is frustrating from all sides, but not necessarily a bad thing. Dems do have to decide what the party stands for and make it stick. We have to have at least some consistencies to put before the voters.

We also need to clarify the process. Sen. Kerry, in his speech at the JFK Library, specifically mentioned the problem with his Pres campaign being unable to communicate with their GOTV effort, which was done through 527's (and PACs.) This is a critical mistake that cannot be repeated for so many reasons. I want to see Gov. Dean start to put in place a permanent structure that reclaims the Dems own ability to rally the voters. (This addresses some of the election fraud issues as well. We have to have our own trusted people in there. People who are there from year to year and know from cold, hard experience what is going on in problem precincts.)