Check in if you enjoy sex.

[Katherine Brengle]

Since we're being told we all hate sex, maybe this is something we should talk about here in a safer place.

I'll start.

I enjoy thoughtful, consensual, intimate sexual activity. I consider myself lucky to experience this in my marriage.

I've been in relationships in the past where this was not the situation, though not nearly so bad as many stories I have heard here and elsewhere. In fact, what I have experienced seems to be the norm for the vast majority of women.

Sometimes living the way we do, as part of the sex class in the patriarchy, can be overwhelming and make it difficult to "let go" to the extent necessary to fully enjoy sex. That's just how it is, imo. Those are the days I don't seek it out or accept invitations to it.

Other days, I can separate myself from the world for awhile and those are wonderful times.

I don't see that as any different from any other part of my politics. I find it hard to go out to eat in restaurants sometimes because I sit there and think about the exploitation of workers in the agricultural industry, the horrible practices of factory farming, and the fact that there are people in the world with nothing to eat.

Some days, I can't even read the news because it is painful, and because I must distance myself from that pain in order to have a decent life.

So do I hate sex? No. I don't. Sometimes I can't accept it. And I'm lucky enough to have that right in my marriage - thanks to feminists.

[ThomCat]

1. The idea that any of us hate sex is totally ridiculous.

All of this because we recognize that porn perpetuates the idea of women as a sex-class.

I don't doubt that many people enjoy being sexualized and enjoy working in the sex industry. But that doesn't change the impact of the porn industry taken as a whole.

I don't doubt that people can view porn without necessarily being misogynists. I own porn, so I certainly don't hold an absolutist position. There are many types of porn, and some are better/worse than others. But that doesn't mean that we have to ignore the role that porn does play in supporting sexism and misogyny.

We don't have to ignore the role misogyny plays in promoting porn. I recognize that I view products that are double-edged, and care and intelligent consideration needs to go into every choice. We can recognize and discuss that double edge, and be sensitive to the messages in porn.

What are those messages? How prevalent are they? Which types of porn, and which themes in porn present the worst messages, and which are more benign?

Presentations of sex and sexuality are not inherently bad, and I don't think anyone has said that they are. But the way sex and sexuality are being presented, and the messages it includes, and the stereotypes it perpetuates are inherently bad.

I think the pro-porn people are presenting a very over-simplified position on what porn is and what porn does. They're all but cannonizing the porn industry,and implying very heavily that porn and sex are interchangeable. (and what a sad idea that is.)

[Katherine Brengle]

2. Well said --

Presentations of sex and sexuality are not inherently bad, and I don't think anyone has said that they are. But the way sex and sexuality are being presented, and the messages it includes, and the stereotypes it perpetuates are inherently bad.

I think the pro-porn people are presenting a very over-simplified position on what porn is and what porn does. They're all but cannonizing the porn industry,and implying very heavily that porn and sex are interchangeable. (and what a sad idea that is.)

I couldn't agree more, with all of that.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

5. Bravo!

"I think the pro-porn people are presenting a very over-simplified position on what porn is and what porn does. They're all but cannonizing the porn industry,and implying very heavily that porn and sex are interchangeable. (and what a sad idea that is.)"

What you said there really hits the nail on the head on how the porn industry is shoving it's "product" down all of our throats. (Pardon the pun!) If porn = sex, then to be the slightest bit anti-porn = anti-sex. Furthermore, if you think about it, you cannot even be neutral toward or have no opinion on porn if porn = sex. The only acceptable and healthy option, according to this argument, is to be an enthusiastic consumer of porn. Anything less than that means you don't like sex.

[LostinVA]

13. Thom -- a simple question

How do you justify what you are saying, in light of your own porn collection, which you admittedly enjoy?

[Katherine Brengle]

14. I think he was trying to draw a distinction between thoughtless

consumption and considered consumption. Considering the source and quality of pornography is a step in the right direction (though personally I believe that in our current culture, it is not fully possible for any significant quantity of woman-friendly visual erotica to exist - I have different feelings about written erotica, which didn't come up in any of the GD discussions).

But I don't speak for him, so I am interested to hear his answer as well.

[ThomCat]

18. I have often considered exactly that point,

whether or not all porn is inherently sexist.

Sexuality is inherent in being human, but exploiting sexuality to push misogyny is not.

I think, like any type of communication (and porn is definitely a form of communication) it depends on who's doing the communicating, what blatant or buried messages they are conveying, and how people respond to that message.

Unfortunately, I think you're mostly right. I think there the sexism is so blatant in most porn that very little of it is free of sexism.

Even gay porn is loaded with dedicated tops and bottoms, which is a throwback to gender roles. There is a significant amount of gay porn that is about macho posturing instead of affectionate attraction. Often, it seems like the "top" is overpowering the "bottom." There's a very obvious power dynamic they're trying to portray, and it's not purely just affectionate sex.

I mention that because on a few threads people have thrown out the idea that gay porn proves somehow that porn is not misogynist. And I totally disagree with that idea. Even (maybe especailly) when gay porn is all muscular men, the gender roles, the sexism, and the patriarchy are obviously there.

[Katherine Brengle]

20. That's a great explanation of

misogyny and gender roles in gay pornography - I've never seen it more clearly discussed.

[ThomCat]

15. I don't see the contradiction.

I've said several times that it's not the visual depiction of sex that is the problem. It's the themes that run through most porn. It's the industry, and the stereotypes it perpetuates.

Owning porn is something people should so with their eyes open. (no pun intended) Nobody should see only the good and ignore the bad. I see that as a tactic of libertarians.

If it was possible to browse porn and not see sexist stereotypes of "sluts," gangbangs, women who exist only to please men, glorified rape, etc. then I wouldn't have any problem with porn.

If it wasn't so common to see women who are clearly high and/or not enjoying themselves in porn, then I might believe that women are not being exploited by porn, and then I wouldn't have any problem with porn.

If porn was really respectable enough that all the performers (the thousands of them, not just a few celebrity porn stars) could proudly use their real names, then I would not have any problem with porn.

Viewing sex is not in-and-of-itself bad. But the porn industry has a very large dark side. Ignoring that doesn't help anyone. And confronting something like this is exactly what the feminist movement is all about.

This is not an absolutist issue. Facing the huge bad parts of the porn industry does not mean getting rid of all depictions of sex. But those bad parts of the porn industry do absolutely need to be challenged.

I could turn this question around to you. How can you call yourself a feminist if you ignore all the misogyny and harm that that porn industry causes? How can you be "pro-sex feminist" if you ignore all the ways the sex industry promotes misogyny and sexist stereotypes?

[LostinVA]

16. Thom -- please find me a single post of mine that says

there is no misogyny and sexism in the porn industry.

You can't do it, because I never said that.

[ThomCat]

17. No, you haven't.

You've just smeared the people who have pointed out the sexism and misogyny by saying that they're not "pro-sex" feminists. You've helped polarize the discussion so it seems to be some people absolutely for, and others absolutely against. Unfortunately, in debates like that, the people cheerleading for porn give aid and cover to total misogynists, and make it nearly impossible to attack the real root problems.

You and I don't get along, and you put me on ignore a long time ago. I'm surprised we're having a discussion at all. But on most issues I know you have strong feminist credentials. I've argued side by side with you on many threads. But we've disagreed on this issue before.

I knew your position before, and I know you're marrying into a family that includes a porn director. (who's pod-casts about porn Haruka sent me a link to, I've listened to, and been impressed by.) I know your immediate reaction is going to be to defend porn.

Despite owning porn I see the danger and harm in it. I used to have guns too, and I recognized the danger of guns, the gun industry, and gun culture too. There are dangerous comodities out there that are culturally loaded. Porn is one of them.

[iverglas]

25. what a fine expression of it all

Despite owning porn I see the danger and harm in it. I used to have guns too, and I recognized the danger of guns, the gun industry, and gun culture too. There are dangerous comodities out there that are culturally loaded. Porn is one of them.

Benjamin Franklin, I submit, would be proud.

Those who would give up Essential Liberty, to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.

The flip side is s/he who is willing to give up a little temporary liberty to purchase someone else's essential safety deserves the best of everything.

[LostinVA]

27. I don't think I smeared anyone

And, Thom, there are posters on here, who do think certain kinds of consensual sex are "wrong," even if the people doing it enjoy it. That I have a huge problem with. Lots of women on here, whom I consider to be strong feminists, don't feel welcome in the women's rights and feminists groups, because if you don't toe a certain line, you are not a feminist, apparently.

Once again, I don't defend all porn, but broad-brushed statements against porn (or anything else) don't help anything. For the record, I'd feel that way even if I wasn't marrying into a family with a porn director. That's a strawman and you know it. I'm also marrying into a family with a convicted kidnapper, but that doesn't mean I defend kidnapping.

Is some porn misogynistic? Yes. Is too much porn bad? Yes, but then again so is drinking or eating too much.

P.S. I've NEVER had you on ignore. If anybody told you that, they were lying.

[ismnotwasm]

29. It's the industry

I despise the porn industry from personal experience. I don't need to go into detail. I despise it from anecdotal stories from others in the industry. I despise it for being the biggest and most manipulative scam since old time religion. The pornography industry has big problems. And the problems are really not hard to track--follow the money. If you're marrying into it, you'll know exactly what I mean.

What's been happening here, is criticizing porn is 1)immediately seen at as an attempt to violate someone's rights. To this day I know sex workers. I don't try to talk them out of it, unless they are clearly in danger, ie; addiction, abuse, or as the case for many women, being set up for non-sex related crimes. (I've done some volunteer work for women in prison, it amazes me how many "did it for their man" rather than take responsibility. Or sometimes the man just bails on them) 2)Get labeled as anti-sex, a very old, very tired and very effective ploy.

And One of the reason I find the "sex-positive" feminist so disingenuous. It also tends to deny patriarchy, which is simply a gender system, and the one we happen to live under. I find it dangerous and violent toward women, perhaps you don't, or perhaps you, along with others, don't believe patriarchy is a valid definition. I don't know.

I know folks into all kinds of sex. I mind my business. This is a discussion board and social commentary is to be expected. I don't tell my SMBD acquaintances they're doing it wrong. Nor would I tell anyone so disposed here that. I don't want to know about who is doing what. What I want to know is how things affects society, and as a feminist, how it affects women. Porn is high on my personal list of examples of misogyny. So are BRATS dolls. So are CSI "dead chick" shows. They reflect something, and one of the things they reflect is how women are valued.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

71. Here's my take on that

Let me try to break it down for you so you will understand where some of us are coming from. Obviously, I can only speak for myself (and not very aptly) but here goes:

I feel like you "sex positive feminists"* want to play both sides of the fence. It seems like you want to get brownie points from the guys at the expense of other women. You talk about strawmen and broad brushes, but I see the same thing when you write posts that imply that someone like me is uptight and sexually repressed because I criticize the porn industry for promoting harmful stereotypes of gender and sexuality. You act as if I am condemning YOU personally, when I think it's pretty clear that I am talking about systems, industries, and society. For all of that you get accolades and appreciation from the male DUers who are hostile to me. Then you come into this group and expect me to welcome you as a feminist after you pretty much threw me under the bus in GD. Even if I try to engage you in dialogue here, there's a good chance you will go back there and complain that I snubbed you for not "toeing the line".


*Please understand that I am not talking about you, specifically, as I'm not familiar with your posting history. I am making a general statement about what I perceive from various women on DU who have been critical of the Feminists Group.

[LostinVA]

79. You do realize that I'm

one, a lesbian, and two, involved in a monogamous relationship, right?

[mrreowwr_kittty]

81. I have no idea why you think those things are relevant

I specifically said I wasn't talking about you, personally. Moreover, your being a lesbian in a committed relationship does not necessarily preclude the possibility that you would try to gain favor with males. This is a patriarchy and lesbians are every bit as subject to it, and are as likely to internalize its precepts, as hetero women. In fact, I've met some pretty misogynistic gay women in my time.

You said that some women felt unwelcome in this group, that they had to toe the line. You accused us of making "broad brush" statements against porn, which is unfair since most of us take great pains to qualify our statements so that it's clear that we are a) not talking about all forms of sexually explicit material, and b) not trying to ban any form of such material.

But it doesn't matter because you'll still say things like "there are posters on here, who do think certain kinds of consensual sex are "wrong," even if the people doing it enjoy it..." Which, aside from being complete horseshit, is about as much of a broad brush and a strawman as it gets. And then, like I said, you'll go back to GD and complain to the guys about how mean we are to you.

Let me also take the opportunity to remind you of one of the rules of the Feminists Group: If, for example, you believe that women who have concerns about the prevalance of pornography in our society are uptight, sexually-repressed prudes who need to be enlightened to the "facts" and "realities" of the sex industry, this is not the group for you. It really couldn't be clearer than that. It's my understanding that one of the reasons this group was formed so that feminists could have a safe space free from porn-apologists and deniers of the existence of patriarchy on the Women's Rights forum. I guess there is a "sex-positive"* group being started. Maybe you'll feel more welcome there.

*Have I mentioned how annoying I find that phrasing? As though anyone who disagrees with you is, by default, sex-negative. Talk about requiring people to toe the line.

[Katherine Brengle]

83. About this part of your post:

"there are posters on here, who do think certain kinds of consensual sex are "wrong," even if the people doing it enjoy it..."

Did she say that? If so, I am curious where this came from. I don't recall such a statement being issued by anyone in this group, but I've been wrong a couple of times in my life ;).

And ditto on the sexpos/sexneg thing - Sex-positive feminism isn't about being "positive about sex" as far as I can tell (at least not as commonly applied, I know in theory it is) - it's mostly about lightening the spirit of feminism so the poor men and anti-feminist women don't get scared.

Once again, as this thread was created to point out, being critical of the sex industry, and pornography specifically, does not mean being critical of sexual activity - the two are not synonymous. And it doesn't mean bupkis about liking or not liking sex itself, which as you can see, we all seem to quite a bit (not that it should matter, but as a rebuttal to the common claim that we are all uptight and repressed).

[mrreowwr_kittty]

84. It's in the post I initially responded to. Direct quote from her. nt

[Katherine Brengle]

82. Exactly.

I have nothing to add to that other than agreement.

[Katherine Brengle]

85. ?

there are posters on here, who do think certain kinds of consensual sex are "wrong," even if the people doing it enjoy it.

I've never seen anyone from this group make a comment like this.

[LostinVA]

86. It was posted in the women's rights forum

to my fiancee, Haruka. I can't link to the specific post, because then I'd be calling out a DUer and breaking DU rules.

Incidentally, it was actually a DUer we get along with.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

87. One person says something on the Women's Right's forum and you trash all of us for it.

Nice.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

51. i own porn too and love porn. however porn is an industry not a concept

and industry should be subject to criticism and control.

the meat industry imo is similar, i dont think there is anything wrong with eating meat however i think there is much wrong in the production of meat.

[femrap]

95. I hate bad sex....you

know the kind where the dude is just into for himself. Maybe you are lucky enough not to have endured that kind of sex.

I like good sex....sharing sex...fun sex. If I can't have that, I have a shower massage....and that does a lovely job imho.

[ismnotwasm]

3. Oh hell yes

That YouMustBeAntiSex crap would be funny if it wasn't so sad. Without going into too much unnecessary detail, suffice it say I have a great sex life. Lots of intensity, laughter, love, impulse,--all the good stuff. I have enough experience behind me to discard the sexual garbage people like to hang on to to convince themselves they're sexually sophisticated. AND I'm an expert flirt, if I do say so myself.

And I'll tell you something else. I just had a conversation with my oldest daughter, who is 28. I was a very young mother, but by the time she was a teenager I had learned a thing or two.

She said this to me, "You know why I never had to sleep around? Why I never needed a man to feel good about myself? Because when I was 14 you looked me in the eye and said that sex was my choice, to have it, to not have it, to be in control of it, when and where and why. I held on to that and have carried it with me for my entire life"

Damn, that made me feel good.

[Katherine Brengle]

10. Wow --

I only hope to impart half that much wisdom to my daughter.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

4. I rather like it, myself

I'm like many of you in that the people who know me best would be astonished to see what a dour, asexual, prude I've been portrayed as on some threads. I know my b/f would heartily disagree with that characterization.

After spending (wasting) the past few hours this evening tussling with members of the Porn Brigade in GD, I honestly feel sorry for them. They just keep repeating the same arguments over and over. And I find myself sounding like a broken record: No, I'm not trying to ban your porn. No, I'm not trying to ban your porn. (As if I could if I wanted to!)

I've come across more than a few guys that I know to be heavily into porn. I can also safely say that not one of them could be described as having a good personal life. I seriously doubt any of them are sexually satisfied, either.

[Branjor]

6. I for one

also enjoy sex, but only if it's loving and respectful to all involved. I am not into humiliation or degradation, either giving or receiving it.

[gollygee]

7. Very happily married woman here

With a very happily married husband and a very happy and active sex life.

:hi:

I'm about done with DU. I don't like men's rights groups. We seem to have a lot of members of such groups at DU.

[Katherine Brengle]

11. Indeed --

do you post on the IBTP forum at all? I got here when I feel like I need a shower after being on DU.

[gollygee]

43. I googled IBTP

And came up with "I Blame The Patriarchy" - I have seen this blog before - with something about a Details article about anal sex, and now there's something about my hometown of Kalamazoo on it, oddly enough. I don't know if I'm up to another forum at this point but I will have to keep better track of the blog.

[Katherine Brengle]

53. Twisty is quite brilliant.

The board doesn't move anywhere as fast as DU, so it's not too hard.

:D

[atommom]

8. Of course I like sex. But then it never occurred to me until I got to DU

that people who liked sex weren't allowed to say anything critical about porn whatsoever. Did I lose my "I like sex" card? I'm crushed. :cry:

[Katherine Brengle]

12. lol

I never heard it until I started posting about feminism here either.

[cally]

9. Of course I do

It's so ridiculous that DUers are implying otherwise. Somehow, their definition of enjoying sex is liking porn. That's insane.

[libnnc]

19. Question: do lesbians who enjoy sex

and who enjoy lesbian erotica (made by lesbians for lesbians) -- are they participating in patriarchal society?

Or are they participating in sexual expression that affirms their orientation?

[Katherine Brengle]

21. I can't really answer that,

since I am not a lesbian and have not been exposed to truly made for women by women lesbian pornoraphy.

I will say that pretty much everyone is participating in patriarchy at least *some* of the time. We can't avoid it. That's why the need for revolution exists.

Nothing happens in an oppression-free vacuum, as someone said on another feminist board recently.

[libnnc]

22. thank you for your honesty

Just know that lesbian produced and centered erotica is indeed out there available for critique.

It does exist (and is a growing market from what I understand).

[Katherine Brengle]

23. Thanks.

I'll keep that in mind.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

28. As I answered to your post in GD - Everyone participates in the patriarchy

As a woman, you are a member of an oppressed class, and the sex class. Your sexual orientation does not exempt you. As for lesbian-to-lesbian erotica or porn, I can't give you an opinion on it because I am not familiar with it.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

31. any lesbian made porn that i have seen is very liberating with adult actors.

and by adult i mean adult, not barely legal.

[lizerdbits]

36. Interestingly

I have a female coworker who likes gay male porn. Several other women I work with are also porn viewers. I don't know details about what specifically they have seen. I'm also not a porn viewer myself. I think there can be erotic films where no one is degraded or humiliated, and not have the current "industry" behind it. Whether it exists or not I don't know.

Edit- SEX IS GOOD!

[Samurai_Writer]

24. This feminist likes sex, and was in the adult sex industry

Well, kind of. I was a lingerie and erotic model (photography and runway) until 2 years ago. Even in the 'soft porn' industry, it was rampant with sexism. It was for this reason that I left it. It went from being empowering (because it helped me feel better about my body) to being viewed as a piece of meat. And I didn't even do anything sexually explicit. Only lingerie and nude shots, not showing any 'pink'. But after a while, I saw what it was really all about. Objectifying women for another's pleasure, not empowering them.

Does that mean I don't like sex? Heck no! I love sex. Indeed, my partner and I are very happy with each other sexually. What I don't like, is equating "You don't like porn, so you must be frigid," like what is happening in the GD topics. I'm far from frigid, and I believe that anything a couple does within the confines of a loving, respectful relationship is fine.

I really found it offensive that someone suggested the people in this group were negative and uptight when it came to sex, just because some of us think porn is a misogynist industry that abuses women.

[Katherine Brengle]

26. Thank you : )

Their assumptions are offensive, and just plain annoying to be honest.

Struggling to identify what is healthy within a sexual relationship also doesn't make one anti-sex, and I think the porn-posse doesn't understand this either.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

30. i love sex and i love SOME porn. porn can be a product of feminism but frequently isnt.

sex work can be a product of feminism but also mostly isn't.

i find it funnier that some people who claim to be sex positive feminists on du have previously mocked me because i have had a large number of sexual partners.

the irony of this is hysterically funny to me.

[ThomCat]

32. That is very hypocritical, and yes, ironic.

Wow.

If your experiences were safe, fun, and consentual then good for you. :)

[La Lioness Priyanka]

33. i had second thoughts about keeping this comment up

[ThomCat]

34. Definitely not an expression I would expect

from "pro-sex feminists." :(

I'm glad you have a sense of humor about it. :hug:

[La Lioness Priyanka]

35. my experience were part of who i am. i find people who like to call/imply that i am a slut

dont get that i dont think thats a bad word. i do what i want on my terms and i dont let society dictate how many partners is appropriate for a girl to have.

[ismnotwasm]

38. I'm glad you're here

When I was younger, I had different partners with no apologies. I learned a lot (About a variety of topics! I found one of my character flaws was I'm a bit of a predator, I could hurt people and not care.) It's probably one of the reasons I am so exceptionally (evidently it's exceptional) satisfied with monogamy today. I'm not sexually conflicted, I don't need to wonder about my sexuality preferences. I get a lot of incredible joy with my husband, (especially now the kids are out of the house)
Early experiences also formed my feminism. I made many mistakes. I regret nothing aside from the hurt I may have caused. The hurt I received, I learned from and was able to become a fully integrated woman and I'm more grateful for that than I can express. I'm very lucky. In my younger world, I lived pretty rough, and those I would be angriest with now are nearly all dead. Sad but true-- to use a Metallica line.

One of the things I learned, is monogamy isn't for everyone. At one point, I thought it wasn't for me. I would have sworn on a stack of physics books it's wasn't for me. Turned out very different and I amuse the hell out of my self sometimes.

I'm glad you feel good about who you are, and are confident in your choices. For a woman in today's world that's a rare gift.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

42. well thats because both men and women are critical about womens sexuality,

[Katherine Brengle]

54. How true.

[raccoon]

94. Amen to that! Even now a woman encounters a lot of judgement and social disapproval for

engaging in uncommitted sex.

[Gormy Cuss]

45. There you go.

"porn can be a product of feminism"

Wouldn't that be an interesting debate premise if we could have such a discussion with civility?

I stayed out of the porn threads specifically because I knew that civility would go out the window early on and there would be too much focus on an individual's right to consume porn rather than the broader issues like the social implications of porn consumption and the practices of the porn industry.

One of the barriers to having a constructive discussion is that porn means different things to different people. For example, I try to draw the line by describing sexually beneficial material as erotica and porn as that which I see as sexually negative (misogynistic or otherwise detrimental.) I realize that not everyone draws the line there and that define which is which is sometimes difficult.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

49. we should be able to have a debate about porn that does not depend on the misery of a woman

because imo most porn does depend on the misery of the porn stars life. she was poor/drug addicted/forced into etc.

we need to talk about how porn can be made where women have viable choices.

[Katherine Brengle]

55. Indeed.

While I tend to err on the side of porn being an inherent bad, I think what you said here is important. If *if* sexually explicit materials that are woman-friendly and made in that spirit can be produced and be preferred by consumers, that's a big step in the right direction.

Of course, the reason I err as I do is because in a society where women are the de facto sex class, I really don't think this is possible - at least not on any significant scale.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

58. it may be a problem with mass produced porn. most of the porn i own and watch is lesbian made porn

and i think the actors have other choices. most of them have other careers too. i have often contemplated moving to sf to be part of this queer porn industry. (since i am monogamous now, its not a choice anymore)

porn isnt inherently bad but some changes and tighter controls need to be made.

another reason i cannot agree to porn being bad is that i would never dictate to an adult woman what she should be able to do with her body.

[Katherine Brengle]

59. Nor would I.

In particular I never said that pornography should be censored or made illegal. I am all for tighter restrictions, but what I was really trying to push was concern on the part of consumers - for those who choose to watch pornography to take care in their choices and make a concerted effort to do no harm.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

62. absolutely.

[iverglas]

46. blows me away

I wouldn't believe it if you hadn't said it!

I make a pretty firm point of not discussing personal stuff on the net -- both because of experience with very unpleasant people whom I very much do not want to know who and where I am and because personal info like how many sexual partners one has had has absolutely nothing to do with one's positions on anything ... other than maybe how many sexual partners is the perfect number. ;)

But okay, I'll make an exception. Now, I don't know how many is "a large number" in most people's minds, so maybe I should ask first (not how many partners anybody has had, but how many is "a large number" in their minds). I'm pretty sure I'd qualify by most yardsticks. I was a child of the sixties, I was a political activist, I was a feminist, I did things and went places and met lots of people, and I luvved sex. I had no interest whatsoever in settling down with anyone or even attaching myself to anyone. I had things to do and places to go and people to meet. And I turned 31, and I soon realized that all the men I met for the next decade had apparently sat up in bed one morning and said "it's time!" and set off to look for a wife. (Funny thing was that a couple of years after I noticed this phenomenon, the comic strip Cathy had it happen to the male lead character there: he actually sat up in bed and said "it's time".) Enormously frustrating. Every damn "date" (I didn't date either; if I decided to eat with someone, it was because I liked him enough to sleep with him) turned out to have been a job interview, unbeknownst to me, and after a couple of weeks' probation I would get the rejection notice ... when I hadn't applied for the damned job and wouldn't have taken it if it had been offered. All of them were married and breeding within the year, I swear.

So yeah. The whole thing is hilarious. Ha Ha. I'm a prude who hates sex and needs therapy, and you're a slut. And of course I'm just lying anyway about really being a slut and not a prude who hates sex and needs therapy; I'm really a menopausal virgin, doncha know.

If they don't have something to use as ammunition against you for their charming little ad locutorem "arguments",* they'll just make shit up and pretend to believe it. Your words will be unworthy of being heard if you have too much sex, if you have too little sex (by whatever standard whoever comes along might choose to apply), if nobody knows how much sex you have had, or if you are unable to have any sex at all because of a terrible childhood accident. Basically, you are unworthy of being heard because of what you say. Oh, and who you are; whatever it is, it comes down to woman who says something I don't want to hear.

_____

Ad locutorem = against the speaker.
Ad hominem = against the man.
I like mine, and offer it for anyone who wants it. (Ad personam doesn't work, because persona is a role in a play.)

And if I hear one more person call an analogy a straw man argument I'm going to throttle him/her ...

[La Lioness Priyanka]

50. a large number is more than most 'normal' women esp lesbians have had

i live in nyc and am attractive and dont believe that having a lot of sex makes me a 'bad person' but i find it funny when people want to have a sex positive feminist forum when the last thing they are is sex positive.

[Katherine Brengle]

56. Well said.

But what ought one say in place of "straw man" - I'm open to suggestions :D.

[iverglas]

60. well ...

"Straw person" is used by all the best logic sites. I tend to say "thingie", because I really can't dignify the crap they come up with by likening it to a human being. ;)

... even a man ...

hahahahahah!

[Katherine Brengle]

61. Muahahaha.

I thought there might be something else to it that bothered you, besides the "man" part lol.

Straw-dingbat maybe ;).

[iverglas]

67. just to sort it out if needed

I do find "straw man" unacceptable in polite society, just like fireman and all the rest of it. But the particular thing I was getting at was how people here fling terms from formal logic around as if they didn't actually have meaning.

I'm rather fond of using analogies to explain things. I've spoken a lot in public, and taught, sometimes rather complex subject matter, and my biggest rule of thumb was that if an idea is likely to be novel or a novel extrapolation from a familiar idea, never just say it once; always say it three different ways. So "it's like" is a useful technique, in addition to just a regular old example.

Trying to get someone to grasp the point of an analogy around here is like trying to get a garden slug to play the harmonica most of the time.

To try to convey the notion that it is not wise to leave a loaded handgun in one's bedside drawer while one is on vacation, because someone who broke in and stole it might then use it to kill a robbery victim, I might suggest that it's kinda like leaving an open barrel of toxic chemicals in one's garage: it's a potential danger to third parties, even if it is on your own property.

You just said guns are the same as poison!!!! is the usual kind of response. But almost invariably, someone will label the analogy a strawman. And that is just really bizarre.


We all do know what concrete thinking is a symptom of, of course. Two choices, actually ... intellectual immaturity ... and psychosis.

http://cancerweb.ncl.ac.uk/cgi-bin/omd?concrete+thinking

Thinking of objects or ideas as specific items rather than as an abstract representation of a more general concept, as contrasted with abstract thinking (e.g., perceiving a chair and a table as individual useful items and not as members of the general class, furniture).

... Prelogical thinking, a concrete type of thinking, characteristic of children and primitives, to which schizophrenic persons are sometimes said to regress.

Synonym: archaic-paralogical thinking, prelogical mind.

Hey, I like that. The prelogical mind. Prelogical thinking. That's about the best two-word summary of what's spewed in the porn threads I can think of.

Of course, there is a third possible thing it's a symptom of. Being wilfully blinded by an agenda. Those are the ones I look at and think (and sometimes say): why do you want to make yourself appear to be this stupid??


But really and truly, there are some people in those threads who are just too plain old stupid to live.

Oops. There goes a figure of speech. Gotta watch out for them too ...

[Katherine Brengle]

74. "Now that's some prelogical thinking."

That just replaced a whole slew of phrases I normally use.

You rock.

[iverglas]

76. and I see you were being offered cake

so I'll pass on a piece of my birthday cake. For some reason, bozo got it in his head that I don't like chocolate cake, after all these years. No, I don't like chocolate ice cream. Chocolate cake, seedless grapes, Brie and filter-tip cigarettes are my idea of what to take to a desert island. (Although I and every female cat I have ever had would be faced with a dilemma if the situation arose: chips or chocolate, chips or chocolate ...)

So it's coffee cake. Granted, a particularly delicious coffee cake with half an inch of sugary coating on it that I ordinarily find it impossible to eat only half of. But coffee cake for your birthday? Well, it's what happens when the neighbourhood grocery store shuts down and birthday cakes have to be transported by bicycle. My particular bozo grew up in Toronto and only ever lived in Toronto and Montreal, with their splendid transit systems (although it seems that a major department store is about to collapse into one of Montreal's Metro stations this week), and has reached the age of almost as old as moi without ever getting a driver's licence.

So here ya go, only you'd better grab it fast 'cause there isn't nearly that much left!



You can borrow the Star Trek video I also got too, if you like, but I think I'll keep the chocolate covered almonds to myself.

Okay, and all that is probably way too much personal info. ;)

[mrreowwr_kittty]

63. It is funny how all this sex positive feminism

Hasn't managed to make a dent in the madonna/whore paradigm.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

66. yup

[femmedem]

69. The madonna/whore paradigm even exists in the sex industry.

Or at least it did in the 80's and 90's, in the clubs where I worked as an exotic dancer. If a dancer acted as if she was turned on by a customer, the other dancers admired her skill. But if she was actually turned on by any of her customers, hoo boy, the other dancers thought she was beneath contempt. Heaven forbid a woman get aroused by a dozen or more men a night. ;)

For me, dancing was inextricably linked to patriarchy. I would never have become a dancer if I hadn't been sexually assaulted. And yet, and yet...it was also a way to relearn how to establish my shattered boundaries. A way of expressing my own fantasies. Of being in control. And how sweet it was to come home to someone who knew I enjoyed my work and never judged me.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

80. wherever sexism exists that paradigm exists

[bliss_eternal]

37. Me, me, me...checking in...!

I dig sex! :bounce:

The argument that women that are critical of the porn industry must not enjoy sex, is like the argument I've seen that women that are critical of hip hop can't possibly enjoy such music. :shrug: I know many women that consider themselves hip hop music fans, that also refuse to listen to the artists that utilize lyrics and imagery that are disparaging of women.

I go back and forth in regard to my feelings about the porn industry. I won't bore anyone with those thoughts or ideas. ;)

[bliss_eternal]

39. Speaking out against rape somehow equates to ....

...our hating men in GD. :eyes: I really think the problem lays with the rape, sexism and misogyny apologists that come out anytime a thread on one of those topics is started. I'm sure you all know this, I just thought it was worth repeating.

;)

[Katherine Brengle]

40. Indeed.

It's the product of simple minds - there are two types of women - those who will ignore everything and live to please men and men's ego, and us - and by "us" I mean those who choose to see the world with eyes open, question assumptions, and refuse to live for the pleasure of men. Which of course means we hate them. Because there is no in between.

Slavery = love
Freedom = hate

Gotta love that logic.

Argh.

[Scout]

41. you can definitely count me in. n/t

[treestar]

44. Everyone's different

I respect everyone's right to be who they are. If they don't enjoy it, they don't have to do it. If they do, do whatever suits you without hurting others.

On the GD, I made the argument that women wouldn't pay a man for it, though. A gigolo or escort maybe but not just sex. We don't have male streetwalkers peddling to straight women. Or is that naive, as I was told on the thread? Are there women who'd buy sex from a male prostitute (with nothing else attached, no escort, no appearance of being a date or boyfriend, etc.)

Another idiot claims there are women who call him when they get the urge and pay him only with a home cooked meal.

[noamnety]

47. That's a common debate tactic

If one male DU poster earns less than his wife, then women aren't discriminated against as a class in the job market.

If one black person uses the word "cracker," we don't live in a white supremacist culture - we just have individual (and therefore equivalent) cases of racism.

If one woman has ever paid for sex from a man, then prostitution is an equal problem for men and women, not a symptom of a misogynistic culture.

If gay porn exists, then there is no class of mainstream porn that is misogynistic.

The existence of an exception disproves the existence of any systemic problems in DU land.

[ThomCat]

48. You've definitely been paying attention.

Those arguments are almost guaranteed to come out in every debate.

If they can reduce every social problem to nothing more than individual examples then they can make false comparisons and nit-pick any argument to death.
x(

[La Lioness Priyanka]

52. well said!

[treestar]

65. Yep, and then they talk down to you scornfully as if you are

idiotic for not recognizing that there are just as many male streetwalkers catering to women as there are the opposite!

[bliss_eternal]

68. Very well said...

...but I don't know that I would call it a debate tactic as much as a way to be dismissive of other's experiences, perspectives, observations and point of view.

But again, great point and post!

This is one of the reasons I stopped posting in GD. I tired of being dismissed by someone that could trot out their "one black friend" or "one gay guy" they know as an example. :eyes: oh and of course those that are actually of color, gay, women, etc. that love to jump into the fray to be dismissive by saying,"...it doesn't bother me(so it shouldn't bother them)." :banghead:

I knew I had enough when a guy told me it was "all good" that he used the "n word" because, and I quote, "I am one." :wow:

I was floored and disgusted that anyone would refer to themselves in such a way, and when called on it, proceed to defend it.
:puke:

Then I wondered why on earth I was arguing with someone that was too ignorant to realize the damage they were causing--themselves, the culture, future generations, race relations, society at large, etc. Why waste my time and energy?

[Katherine Brengle]

57. Our positions in society are different --

in a patriarchy, men are raised with innate male privilege. Their male privilege is what entitles them (as a class, there can be individual exceptions as we all know) to sex from women. They are also raised to believe that they should be in constant want and *need* of sexual gratification - to be otherwise is to be less than a real man.

Women, on the other hand, are raised in the sex class. We are raised to believe that our greatest purpose is to serve men, particularly sexually. Therefore, a woman soliciting a male prostitute is less likely, because we *know* that men do not exist to serve our sexual pleasure.

[treestar]

64. Arguing with those guys you get the vibe they definitely feel

entitled. And if they can't get it another way, they get to buy it.

It comes down to economics. When you have no women who have no better way to make a living, those Neanderthals will have to develop normal relationships like real men.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

70. I can't imagine ever feeling that I was entitled to use another person for my sexual gratification

It's completely alien to me. Yet, I've had men look at me like I was nuts when I've pointed out to them that, no, it's not okay to rape a woman because she is drunk/you paid for stuff/she is your girlfriend or wife. A lot of men honestly think that there are certain situations (several, actually) where a woman loses her right to refuse sex.

They also have no qualms about purchasing sex from some enslaved woman or girl. There was this truly horrific case in my area where a mentally retarded girl was being pimped out, by her drug-addicted mother, in a rundown motel. When the police found the girl she was being raped by several men a day. Who are these guys? Judging from the johns I've seen cruising the red light district in my city, I have a bad feeling that at least some of them were "upstanding" affluent suburbanites.

And the ones on DU and elsewhere who go straight to the "But it's my biology! Men have uncontrollable urges!" just reveal how deeply entrenched the entitlement is. When they say that I'm like, so? You have a hand. Use it. You don't get to commandeer someone else to help you relieve yourself.

[Katherine Brengle]

73. Exactly!

The entitlement aspect doesn't even exist in my consciousness.

That's not "urges" - I think pretty much everyone has "urges" that they'd like to be satisfied in recreational activity with another human being.

An urge is just desire. Believing that you have an unalienable right to act on that desire with another person is entitlement.

And it's learned.

[lizerdbits]

77. If men have "uncontrollable urges"

then maybe they should all have a night time curfew or have a constant escort to protect the rest of society. I realize that's ridiculous but when I've used that response in the past the looks I've received went from stunned to angry. Then it goes into the "if you jog in the dark and get raped you ask for it because women are told not to do that" rant. So if his daughter gets raped when she's out at night will he tell her it's her fault?

[Katherine Brengle]

78. Blaming the victim is what

radicalized me.

(And disclaimer: I've never been a victim, fortunately for me.)

[Ellen Forradalom]

72. I like sex.

So much so, that I get annoyed at the lopsided orgasm ratio with my past two lovers. Oh, and why does sex end abruptly when mister man comes, no matter what I need?

But all that means is I need me some better lovers. Sex itself is fine.

[Katherine Brengle]

75. Oh darling, it's because our culture (and most others as far as I can tell) define sex

in terms of a man's orgasm/ejaculation.

And yes, better lovers. Better yet, open-minded lovers who are willing to listen and learn.

[raccoon]

88. Amen/Ramen to that!

There's good sex and there's bad sex (such as, wham-bam-thank you ma'm).

To me no sex is better than bad sex.

[lizerdbits]

89. "No sex is better than bad sex"

You got that right. If I'm just going to have my pants off for 3 minutes I'll probably get more satisfaction from keeping them on and picking my nose.

[roody]

93. Also a vibrator beside the bed in case you need more.

[ThomCat]

90. I love that this thread has over 2,000 views, and almost 90 posts.

That's a hell of a lot of traffic for this forum.

So, how many people do you think only now discovered that there is a feminism forum? :)

[Boojatta]

91. Kick, to help more DU members discover this DU Group.

[seabeyond]

92. interesting read. thank you for pulling this back up. i agree with everyone. lol. nt

[Qanisqineq]

96. I don't remember

My husband has decided that he either doesn't like it, or to pursue it elsewhere.

:shrug:

Either way, it is apparently my fault. :eyes: