How much fuss would we have to make

[noamnety]

to get DUers to stop objectifying women in the main political forums?

If we replied with a statement that it was offensive, every single time it occured, would we at least wear them down so - even if they didn't see WHY it's so offensive - they'd stop doing it because they're tired of having their threads derailed by a debate over it?

I'm talking about threads like female politicians or pundits being put down for their physical appearance, as well as threads about an entirely different subject where someone feels the urge to chime in with "I'd do her" or some other brilliant observation.

If they can't stop because it's wrong, can they at least be trained to recognize before they hit send that they're about to offend someone here?

(little annoyed)

[Kerrytravelers]

1. Clik on link below. Read thread. Bang head against wall.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1354994

Women aren't second-class citizens. :crazy:

[BlueIris]

9. That thread was good for putting a bunch of condescending assholes

on Ignore. Hey, patronizing men of DU? I know I don't have equal rights. I don't need you to explain that to me as if it were an issue I was totally clueless about until the minute you stopped fellating the fat, salty phallus of Patriarchy and decided to explain it to me. Which you obviously feel I should be so grateful that you decided to do, and give you special, extra Sensitive Man points for. Slimy little fuckwads.

[bliss_eternal]

2. Calling DU'ers on insensitivity

will wear you out long before anyone else is worn down. Trust me. I've watched many women (and men) from this area defend our rights in GD and GDP--pointing out language, etc. One has to be open to other perspectives in order to change or learn. Most on these boards just want to argue and think themselves right, superior, holier than thou, etc.

I've had groups of people (including women)flame me relentlessly for speaking up regarding language use and how derogatory and insensitive it can be. Some respond directly. Others respond passive aggressively, commenting to others on the thread about my comments. When I call them on that behaviour, and ask to be addressed directly they usually slither back under their rocks. Apparently some would rather be indirectly snarky.:eyes:

[VelmaD]

3. One need only read the great "bitch" war threads...

to understand how attached some misogynists are to their right to be obnoxious assholes. The OP in this thread has links to the multiple threads where we debated the word "bitch". It might surprise you who you'll want to put on ignore by the time you finish reading.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1361548#1365536

[noamnety]

4. that was a depressing read

so many well reasoned arguments, followed by the usual load of women need thicker skins (which I read as women need to shut up and learn their place).

[Kerrytravelers]

10. That was unbelievable.

I am ashamed that the word "ban" was used. If one enforces the pre-set rules we all agree to when joining, then banning a word shouldn't be necessary, it is already covered under the rules.

Shouldn't anyone in a position to do so just encourage enforcing the DU Rules?

Content: Do not post messages that are inflammatory, extreme, divisive, incoherent, or otherwise inappropriate. Do not engage in anti-social, disruptive, or trolling behavior. Do not post broad-brush, bigoted statements. The moderators and administrators work very hard to enforce some minimal standards regarding what content is appropriate.



Minimal standards... hum...



However, this allows the picking and choosing by calling others too sensitive...


But please remember that this is a large and diverse community that includes a broad range of opinion. People who are easily offended, or who are not accustomed to having their opinions (including deeply personal convictions) challenged may not feel entirely comfortable here. A thick skin is necessary to participate on this or any other discussion forum.


Apparently, many here at DU interpertate "thick skin" as code word for "shut up and deal, bitch."







Edited to add:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=105&topic_id=5234515#5234626

Locking.

Referring to s locked sexist post in GD Politics

And here's from the rules:

For this reason, we no longer automatically remove the word "bitch." However, we strongly urge members to voluntarily avoid using the word if they wish to keep their own discussions from going off-topic, and we reserve the right to take disciplinary action if we think someone is deliberately using the word in an effort to disrupt or cause trouble.

[MuseRider]

5. Anymore I just alert

and try to stay out of it. I have never been able to fight one of these out. My most well reasoned, well said posts have been disregarded with a couple of words and at this point I am trying to stay calm, my life is too screwed up at this moment to add to it.

Would it be at all effective if we simply posted, "I find this offensive" and left it at that? No arguing just a continuous posting of those simple words? The impact would be small at first but with constant repeating those who have a shred of decency in them might take note and tone it down if not coming over to our point of view. Just thinking of a way to deal while trying to keep cool. Add to that the usually but sometimes effective alert and maybe we might make a slow impact.

I know that all of the people who post the offensive words and thoughts know better. They know the reaction they are going to get and they just like to fight, it makes them feel...ummm...powerful shall we say. Maybe taking the power out of them would work. They don't want to change things they just want to exert their powerful place (in their minds).

[noamnety]

6. "I find this offensive"

I've done that a few times. I usually phrase it differently, and perhaps more snarkily - "Derogatory sexist language duly noted" although I tend to use that more on another forum that I finally withdrew from, where I would post an argument about something, only to be met with completely unrelated gender-slams.

I might try the offensive line, maybe with a short explanation if I think it's possible they won't get why it's offensive. I just know the more I told I'm being too sensitive - I should just "not read those posts if they bother me" the more it makes me want to not accept it quietly. Seems I'm a stubborn one.

[MuseRider]

7. No you are not stubborn in a bad way

you are stubborn because that is the only way we will ever win. I understand totally where you are on this. I am having a bad time right now and find that when I get involved in this I just lose it, not that that is bad but it is not healthy for me at this moment in my life. That will change soon I think and I will be back in.

I think they all understand why we would be offended, they understand but they do not care. That is why I think it might work not to fight it but just state it. It would diffuse them immediately, when there is nobody to fight with they will just spend the time reaffirming their superiority with each other but they will not be able to use us to get to that point. I don't know, I was actually just wondering since it seems we are getting jerked around a lot these days by the same people who look for the opportunity every time they can find it to use it to make us angry and to make them seem more "manly" or (and this I will never understand) make the men think they are OK because they are females who can "handle" the labels.

[atommom]

12. I'm at the same place myself...

I'm too busy in my off-screen life to spend a lot of time and energy fighting battles here. Sometimes we just need some time to recharge.

And I think you're completely right about the repeat offenders. It gives them a charge when they upset us, makes them feel more powerful somehow. The anonymity of the web makes them bolder, makes them more eager to pick a fight. These are probably the same men who keep cutting us off in traffic! ;)

[MuseRider]

16. I'm BACK!

We were getting ready to take a big loan to build our house finally, it was killing me. The loan is done and we start digging in 2 days so I am much more able to handle the stress.

I don't want to give them power and as much as I hate to admit it I am not very good at arguing. I think I will take a stance now (much like one of the DUers here who fights for different issues) that I know who I am and I do not have to prove anything to any of these creeps. It is offensive what they say and I don't have to have a reason that I am offended, especially when these issues have been hashed and rehashed for eons it seems. They should not have to have a reason, if it is offensive then they should prove their liberal credentials by backing the hell off and sharing the spotlight without being fearful of losing their coveted position of all powerful.

[ismnotwasm]

8. A Lot

I'm not very good with computer arguments, but I don't accept that attitude in real life. I find people back down easier when it's face to face. When comfronted on-line, they are not as threatened and even see to enjoy stirring it up. And then others join in, and instead of a discussion there is a "flame war" Which is not always a bad thing, depending on what the topic was in the first place.
It was a different issue, and I forget the thread,(I think it was yesterday) but I saw a DU'er ask someone NOT to compare Ms. Coulter to a man, as it insulted the transgendered-- very pleasantly, and it seemed to work with ONE individual. Unfortunately, there are a thousand more who think that stuff is fine and dandy.

[bliss_eternal]

14. This is a great point--

Quote:

I'm not very good with computer arguments, but I don't accept that attitude in real life. I find people back down easier when it's face to face. When comfronted on-line, they are not as threatened and even see to enjoy stirring it up.

I'm completely convinced that those that seem to take such joy in exchanges are cowards, with major issues in the real world. In real life (away from the cyberspace world) they are inept on some level and this is where they find their footing and become what they can't be in reality.

Bullies on the internet are a little different from bullies in the real world. In the real world, when you stand up to them and call them on their bullshit, they tend to back down or at least realize you aren't having it--and move on. On the internet, there is a certain power in anonymity.

[Marie26]

11. I've given up. nt

[Kerrytravelers]

13. I guess I have given up as well.

Defending myself isn't allowed, especially when I defend myself against chauvinists.

[Cerridwen]

15. Not as much fuss as we would be *allowed* to make

We're allowed to point to and criticize posters at other sites, but DU rules forbid us to point to and criticize fellow (I just love that our language isn't in any way gendered) DUers. Any attempt to criticize or correct a poster's misogynistic comments results in belittling us for not having a "thick skin," i.e. "not taking it like a man," a flamewar, deleted posts (we can't have "angry" women speaking out here; it's embarrassing) or deleted threads (see same about angry women).

My experience has been that feminists are despised by the right and the left; those on the right are more honest about their hatred. (*standard disclaimer: I am using generalities in this post in order to keep the post length down. Rather than putting in all the conditionals, i.e., some on the left, some men, some women-who-want-to-be-men, etc. Please read conditionals in the phrasing if that keeps your defenses from going into overload and requiring you begin bashing me for lumping you all together. Thank you.)

I think we're all aware of why men and women-who-want-to-be-men on the right, despise feminists. What is less clear is why men and women-who-want-to-be-men (hereafter referred to as wwwtbm. *please see standard disclaimer.) on the left of the political spectrum despise us as well. Well, here's my theory.

Liberal, leftist, Democratic men and wwwtbm (*see disclaimer) have to deny and hide their prejudices; racism, homophobia, misogyny, ageism, elitism, etc., from themselves and others in order to "belong" to the leftist movements as they have been traditionally perceived and promoted. In other words, the "core values" of leftist movements and politics has been broadcast as diverse, accepting, evolved, caring, etc. Anything outside that "norm" has been ridiculed and dismissed as unworthy of "us."

When we call someone who is of the left, on their prejudice, we have just made them aware that they do not, perhaps, fit the ideal of a progressive, liberal, Democrat, socialist, etc. We have called into question their "right," as they perceive it, to call themselves...pick a label. Because we have pointed out the contradiction, cognitive dissonance can result. Cognitive dissonance is painful in the extreme. It is also, downright terrifying. Humans have a habit of becoming extremely violent when we are terrified. We must get rid of that feeling as quickly as possible. What better way to relieve our terror than to attack someone else or to place the blame on someone else. The "other" caused our feeling of terror therefore the "other" must be removed, silenced, destroyed. Women are the quintessential "other."

As such, we and our labor are the first to be exploited and we and our needs and rights are the first to be jettisoned when any suppressed organization or group attains "respectability." See for example the growth of the early xtian church and its use of women to "spread the word" and the early unions and workers' rights organizations and their use of women's labor to "spread the word" and the position of women in the civil rights movement as defined by one civil rights organization leader, "the only position for women...is prone." As soon as any organization achieves, or more correctly, appears to achieve "respectability," the women, their labor and their rights will be returned to "their place." Women's passion will be labeled as anger, our concerns will be dismissed as selfish and petty and our place will be defined as inconsequential in the "grand scheme of things." Much as has been done to the word and movement called liberal. Guess what they do to women was just a template, huh?

So, to finally come to the point, the Democratic party and leftist organizations and their people, haves attained the perception of "respectable" and its leaders and followers have decided that women, the quintessential "other," are a danger to the liberal, leftist status quo. Anything we say which may "threaten" said "respectability" must be removed, silenced, destroyed lest we cause cognitive dissonance in the "grand scheme of things" with our petty, selfish, angry concerns.

[noamnety]

17. We don't have a manifesto, do we?

Would anyone be interested in working on a DU feminist statement that encompasses what we see as offensive methods of political debate, and WHY we find them offensive? What if we came to agreement on that, and a number of us signed our approval to it?

Then we could do a standard "I find this offensive" post, but link it to our unified statement, rather than arguing it each and every time it comes up, and it wouldn't come across quite so much as a single "thin skinned" woman.

I know it wouldn't be incorporated into the rules, but I still see some potential value in a group of us taking a stand together. Then instead of being weak and thin-skinned, we might be perceived as having some strength. A force to be reckoned with. (Alright, I know I'm daydreaming there, sorry.)

[Cerridwen]

19. That's a great idea! Maybe we could "sticky" it at the top of this group

I don't know what my schedule is like today...Father's Day and "father" hasn't decided yet; :D but I'll add my .02...maybe even start a thread getting input from this group over the next few days or so, much as the mission statement was done.

A group created Manifesto stickied to the top of the group which we can all link to or copy paste as needed.

Wonderful thinking!



:yourock:

[femrap]

18. Great post.

The only way I have been able to handle sexist comments from the Leftie Boys (and the righties, too) is to use large amounts of ridicule and humor.

I used to use the "I find that offensive' method but it never worked. NEVER. Ridicule works....and what's good about ridicule is I FEEL GOOD! I get to laugh...in fact, lots of folks get a laugh...and all of a sudden some people start to see a bit of Truth.

Women are ridiculed a lot...for their physical attributes in particular. In the name of 'equality,' I try to mention/joke about the physical attributes of men...and it's amazing how some men become quiet...for example, mentioning rove and his baldness. Men hate going bald...do women broach that subject? Not very often.

In other words, I guess I'm being as mean as they are....and I do that because I don't think they realize how mean they are being. Cuz, we're the 'other.' Well, in my book, they're the 'other.' And I want them to feel what it is like to be considered the 'other.'

And Goddess knows that this entire planet has been ruined by FME Syndrome....Fragile Male Ego. If we didn't have this, we probably wouldn't have wars.

I wonder if this post will be 'deleted' by the powers that be????

[Cerridwen]

20. Thank you for saying so.

I, too have tried "giving them a taste of their own medicine;" in real life and here. The look on their faces when I can see them, is priceless. Of course, as you've noted, we have to target the audience. Some respond well to seeing their prejudice mirrored back at them, some respond to a light reminder that they're leaving out entire perspectives and some just ain't gonna see it no matter what we, you, I do.

One comment I have used that has proved especially effective in real life one on one discussions; with the appropriate audience, of course, is to respond to any comment about a woman's appearance as some sort of barometer of her character is to look them up and down, noticeably, and say, oh so sweetly, "ah, yes, size does matter" with just the slightest "knowing" grin on my face. You see, I've met very few men who feel adequate, if you know what I mean, and that remark seems to remind them of their fear of what would happen if "we" judged them using similar criteria to how "they" judge us. (warning: select your audience carefully with this tactic as some men are not disinclined to become violent). Besides, it's regarded as a particularly mean statement, especially to those who've just mentioned what a "nice rack" or "great ass" some woman has.

But, I digress.

I wondered, too, if my post would survive the night. I've noticed many examples of DU rules breaking which results in posts in this group being deleted or threads being locked which, in other groups or forums are allowed to survive; in short, I've noticed the double standard. No, I'm not going to go off on a rant here. I'm making an observation. I started to compile a collection of the posts to compare and contrast the uneven treatment, but it became so common place, it was difficult to keep up and I do have a life outside of DU. :D Perhaps it's time to begin the compilation again?

I do like lwfern's idea of creating a manifesto that we can link to or copy and paste from each time we seem some of the sexist and women hating crap show up here. Sometimes a little education can go a long way.

[femrap]

25. Double standards exist at DU....

that's for sure. I wonder who is the specific mod doing this or if it is set at the top? Skinner has not struck me as a sexist male...but who knows?

You're right about watching to whom you say what to regarding 'size'...violence is sometimes man's answer.

[Kerrytravelers]

21. Yes, in the past months several of my posts and threads have been

deleted and locked. I find that very interesting. I never name-call, I don't use foul language (in those posts) and, in fact, made sure to be very diplomatic in my remarks, but also very honest. It is quite suspicious when someone only has a handful of posts, cites right-wing journalists and posts some very anti-choice comments. Yet, I am the one deleted and locked.

I don't want to be tombstoned, so I've just given up. I guess that was the idea all along.

[Cerridwen]

22. Precisely, and not, I think.

You said "I don't want to be tombstoned, so I've just given up. I guess that was the idea all along." and I agree with the effect such "silencing" has on many of us. I don't know that the mods sit there and consciously think, "gee, if I just delete this post here and lock that thread there, maybe this b*tch will finally just STFU and go away." However, 1 - I do think that seeing women posting angry passionate posts, the cognitive dissonance induced fear kicks in and they start deleting and, 2 - regardless of the intent of the deletion or lock, the effect is the same...silenced voices. In other words, their and our conditioning "kicks in" and we all play our part according so some old, worn-out, authoritarian script.

Perhaps if we can get some of the people on this site educated as to how we view their words, language and actions and the (un)intended consequences, they'll start to "get it" and quit participating in "the play."

Well, I can hope.

:D

[Kerrytravelers]

23. I don't think it was everyone sitting around and saying "STFU."

Within a 72 hour period, I had two threads locked and several posts deleted. It all happened at one time so I figured I was getting on someone's nerves...

[Cerridwen]

24. Yeah, I figured. I saw that, actually.

I've been watching very closely what is deleted/locked here in this group versus what is deleted/locked in other groups and forums. It's very uneven and will change as the mods change, as well. One group who was doing exactly what you did in your locked threads and deleted posts, has not, to date had their posts deleted or locked. When the mods changed, some of their newer posts were locked/deleted for doing exactly what they'd been doing all along. It became a bit more consistent across the groups and forums.

In short, I think it's mod specific and yeah, I guess you inadvertently "pissed" in someone's Wheaties. Since the mods can now lock/delete under the pseudonym "Moderator" it's more difficult to narrow it down to a specific mod, but we can narrow it down to whomever is assigned to this group. I then start to watch their pattern in the other groups to which they're assigned as well as their posting history. Opposition research, it's a grand thing when I have the time to keep at it. LOL Perhaps I can one day narrow it down to the specific mod and send them the link to the new manifesto once it's finished?

:evilgrin:


I think our manifesto and some education will help to address some of the inconsistencies. Well, okay, I hope it will. :D

edit: spelling