Media influence of attitudes toward women: Let's make a list...!

[bliss_eternal]

I was struck during the Duke threads by a comment about rape and General Hospital. A poster commented about the impact it had on them that Luke raped Laura, but later the two characters had a relationship. While they weren't aware of the impact at the time, it did have a residual affect in their attitudes about women, rape, consent, etc.

As I watch television and film of late I'm noticing how women are portrayed and how the men around them react to them. I would love to see some of the frequent posters to this area compile a list of the various films, tv shows, etc. that have influenced feminism and how.

Of course the lesson of General Hospital and the Luke, Laura relationship--that rape, is merely seduction and deep down every woman wants it and desires it. It can even be the foundation of a beautiful, celebrated, long term relationship. :puke:

LA Confidential--The "whore with the heart of gold" is portrayed by Kim Basinger. She and Russell Crowe's character (Bud) start to see each other. While they are lying in bed she notices a scar and asks how he got it. He confesses that his mother was beat to death by his father, and he got the scar from him. Suddenly, his soft spot for women in trouble makes sense. His character frequently rescues women that are being physically abused. This endears him to the women viewers of the film--yet later in the film, while he feels betrayed by Basinger he hits her in a fit of anger. Of course the film ends with them riding off into the sunset together.

Excuse me, but what's wrong with this picture? While this may be a true representation of many relationships, particularly those from the era portrayed in the film, why should we buy it or applaud it at the end? For me, this is exactly the kind of film that reinforces the belief that all women are responsible for the man's rage and it is forgivable and a safe bet that it will never happen again.

My personal pet peeve of late are advertisers. Excuse me, but why do they want me to hate my vagina? All the ads for cleansing it and making it smell like a meadow of daisies on a dew kissed day are disturbing to say the least. According to tv ads I should fear my vagina and it's variant odors and all I have to look forward to in life are new cleaning products to make my life so much easier :eyes:, my bones becoming weak and brittle unless I use their item, attempting to avoid panty lines, deodorant marks on my clothing and adult diapers. :wtf: I've never had a conversation with any of the women in my life about any of these "alleged" problems.

What are films, television shows or other forms of media that have offered either a positive or negative message about women, women's rights, relationships, abuse, etc.

[femrap]

1. I consider the Media an enemy of

women. I turned off the TV....except for 2 stations which I can get on The Dish, Free Speech TV and Link TV. IMHO, they are the only channels worth watching....and PBS on occasion.

I can't stand the commercials...Victoria Secret is soft pOrn. Never do you see a commercial for condoms...shit, for every viagra commercial, there should be a commercial for condoms.

Soap Operas...I have to come clean and say that I had watched All My Children for years, but I stopped when one of the characters carried a rapist's child to term. And then all of the female characters were pregnant or trying to get pregnant....shit, they're dying to get pregnant. I feel so sorry for the young women of today....what a hostile environment that is demanding such narrow gender roles.

When I was young, very few of the female characters got pregnant. I believe the Media is pushing a message upon young women....be a mother...that's what you're here for. It's hard to battle the messages. And don't get me started on 'body image.' Corporations want women to be miserable...cuz when we're miserable, we buy stuff and they rich. GRRRRRRR.

And the effect that p0rn is having on young men....I just had to put up with copies of Penthouse....which were never allowed into my home.

I miss Murphy Brown, Roseanne, Designing Women, Cybil, Mary Tyler Moore. I don't think a strong woman character is allowed on TV. She might carry a gun, but her cleavage is always out there.

[bliss_eternal]

2. Most of what I watch are shows in syndication...

Murphy Brown, Roseanne, Golden Girls, Designing Women, etc. I'm also fond of Law and Order--SVU and Criminal Intent feature strong women that DO NOT have boobs hanging out. I can't name many, if any other first run shows that I watch presently other than L&O:Criminal Intent and SVU. Oh wait, some cable stuff too--but nothing of note.

I sat here with my mouth agape a few weeks ago. One of the cable networks was featuring some ad about "bumps being in fashion." Pregnancy is hot according to them--so I guess that means if I want to wear all the cute clothes I should go out and get pregnant so I can have the best fashion accessory (according to them) "a bump." :wtf:

Last I checked, pregnancy was a life changing event,something to not be entered lightly--not a fashion DO. :eyes:

[OldLeftieLawyer]

4. On TNT,

there is a show called "The Closer."

You might want to check it out. The first season might be out on DVD by now.

[bliss_eternal]

5. Is that the one with Kyra Sedgewick?

I think I've seen some ads for it...what's it like?

[geniph]

11. Sometimes I think only sci-fi can show strong women

It seems sometimes like it has to be science fiction, the idea of women being treated as actual equal partners - Farscape or, better yet, Firefly, had strong, intelligent, EQUAL women. I loved the concept in Firefly that the sex worker was by far the most societally respectable person on the ship.

[lukasahero]

12. Speaking of sci-fi, Firefly and strong women,

for those who haven't seen this posted in the WR&Is forum, here's a speech by Joss Whedon (creator of Buffy and Firefly) receiving the "Men on the Front Lines" award given by Equality Now (introduction by Meryl Streep)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYaczoJMRhs

[bliss_eternal]

18. I enjoyed Joss Whedon's work

with Buffy the Vampire Slayer. It was so fresh, funny, incisive and interesting. Strong women were represented against a backdrop of the myriad of challenges women face in society with humour, honesty and poignancy. I miss it, but am glad that it ended when it did as it was starting to decline in terms of quality and style--at least to me.

Thank you for the link! :hi:

[bliss_eternal]

19. Sci-fi for the most part

does allow for women's stereotypes to be broken. But it depends on the source of the work, too. The Aliens series (most notably the first two--Alien and Aliens)with Ripley as the heroine, Joss Whedon's Firefly and Buffy the Vampire Slayer are notable. Even Star Wars (the originals) featuring Princess Leia as a woman on a mission that frequently rescued the rescuers.

But there are times sci-fi gets sexist--I think it just depends on the source. With the growing popularity of the science fiction/comic book conventions, there's a whole genre devoted to comic heroines. Most of the comic book heroines are sold as Amazons of sorts featuring pin-up looks, bodies featuring teeny, tiny waists, uber boobs and legs for days. While these women may be strong I'm rather disgruntled that they can't vary from looking a certain way in terms of this limited genre.

The legion of comic book fans tend to also be very big on porn, and the simularities in the way the women look can't be ignored. I'm not sure which spawned the other (comic books to sci fi) or vice versa. But again, this is kind of a sub-genre of science fiction, and thankfully not the whole.

Having read interviews with Joss Whedon, he always stated he looked for intelligent women/actresses to embody his characters, as opposed to them looking a certain way. Whereas standard Hollywood casting seeks model types when casting sci-fi characters--a woman that will look good kicking a guy's ass. :eyes: They don't factor into the equation the act of the woman kicking ass is in itself sexy, interesting, attractive and fun to watch--regardless of the woman's physical attributes.

[ismnotwasm]

3. Where to start?

I admit to being a fan of forensic type shows, but let's look at my former favorite, CSI Las Vegas. First time I've seen a "token feminist" in the character of Sara Sidal. But wait! She has a rough past, foster homes, abuse etc, well no wonder she's angry! Awkward in relationships, looking for a relationship with a "Daddy" figure in the Spock like character of Grisim. (She finally got him, at season's end this year) The redhead, I forget her name, quite beautiful OF COURSE used to be a stripper. And she's angry as well, but in a different way. Now that in itself doesn't offend me, and I found the argument between her and Sara one time---Something to the affect that the former stripper was going to use every tool in her arsenal so to speak, to obtain information to put the bad guys away, and Sara's objection to it, let's say, interesting. I like Sara, but they won't let that inner feminist REALLY come out of course.

Lady Heather, the Dominatrix, who popped up now and again was a hell of a character, but naturally she found her inner submissive in the form of the Spock-like Grisim (I dug Grisim precisely because he seemed analytical to the point of being damn near asexual, and here they are throwing these women characters at him. Turns out he's a dom of sorts.)

Lady Heather's daughter was brutally murdered by a particularly vicious serial killer, who actually CHEWED off her own hand to in an attempt to get away. The daughter had been doing very well when first introduced in the show via Lady Heather, going to Harvard all that, and It seemed a kind of "see what happens when you whip men for a living" kind of punishment for her to kill her daughter off.
Lady Heather, who is every man's dominatrix fantasy in appearance finds her daughter's killer ties him to a car and is beating him to death with a bull whip. Grisim finds her just to stop her from murder, and uses the BDSM "I'm saying stop"

So in short, while the show has strong women characters, none are independent of some sort of sexuality projection. Some sort of sexual "defect." Some male fantasy archetype. The background of Los Vegas makes it all seem Ok.
And of course there is the obligatory inference is that if they only found the "right" man, all would be well. They would be complete.

The male characters has one typical All-American-boy who seems to be attracted to beautiful hookers, but never brings himself to cross the line to actually have a relationship with the "fallen" women. Another falls in love--briefly, with a talented heroin addict. I haven't been watching regularly but that last one is married now, and I get the impression it's a "rocky" marriage. Another male character, cuckolded by his wife, had a daughter who is not his ("She doesn't know") Who grows up to be a crack whore. This character stoically endures his daughter's abuse, and suffers nobly, because he loves this girl no matter what. A Real Hero.
The males characters are nearly two dimensional some of them, kind of a backdrop for the violence so often portrayed against women. Not always, but dead girls/women are standard fodder.

I could go on and on. (This is one show I'm familiar with, so I can use it for an example, I'm more of a reader) I've lost interest in the show precisely because of the bullshit I've described. I won't even go into how the former stripper dresses to go to crime scenes. It's tit's and ass all the way though. She looks good, but damn women you don't need cleavage to look at dead bodies.

The show does cover interesting topics from time to time, so it's not a total loss. But it could be so much better without using women--both the dead ones and the living, as sexist fishing lures for ratings.

[Warpy]

8. Yeah, and what's with all that HAIR?

It seems that most of the CSI and L&O babes keep their hair long and loose on the job, a real nono for any woman who's had to work hard in a potentially dangerous situtation. Long hair tends to fall or blow into one's eyes at inopportune moments and it's too convenient a thing for a bad guy or a nutty person to grab when they want to HURT you.

It also seems that they like to wear fashionable, toe crunching high heeled shoes on the job. What's with THAT? Those jobs keep them on their feet! They have to climb into some weird places to do preliminary examinations on bodies! WHAT ARE THOSE PRODUCERS THINKING?

These may seem minor in the face of that "rape as seduction" garbage that gets played over and over, but it's an overall indication of just how unrealistic those women on TV are: they have the titles but those costumes show that they're not really to be taken all that seriously, not really,

[bliss_eternal]

9. You know, I've wondered about that aspect, too...

I think sometimes I'm so relieved to not be visually assaulted by cleavage that I don't even think about the other stuff. But I have looked at Mariska Hargitay sometimes and wondered, "...is she wearing heels? That's not realistic!"

Good points, Warpy! Now I think I'll watch and obsess over what they are wearing... LOL!

[ismnotwasm]

10. Yeah.

Long hair, heels. Think the female actors complain about their feet after a long shoot? Bet they do. Irritating. As well as stupid. But women have to be packaged for display, even a "token" feminist.

It's funny, I don't deny anybody the right to be attractive or vain. I do resent being force fed--from media manipulation to psychological or biological studies what "I" should consider attractive though. In women or men. I'll like what I like dammit.

You're so right, on TV, it's the women who aim to visually
please. Even male TV "hunks" get to be safe on the job. It's manly. Women dress like they're going to need to be rescued at any minute.

And if by chance some scene pops up where a woman "rescues" a male, it's a big deal. More stupidity.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

6. If you are unmarried and over the age of 25 or so

You are DESPERATE!!!! Your number one goal in life is to corral some reluctant male and force-march him down the aisle. Being single and content is unthinkable. Single women are bitter, mentally unhinged, harpies with multiple cats.

[bliss_eternal]

7. The influx of shows like The Bachelor really pissed me off!

I'll admit it, I actually watched the show, primarily to piss myself off. Nothing is more sickening (and shocking frankly) than to watch a group of women try to usurp one another to obtain a rose from some arrogant man, that thinks he is the catch of the century. :eyes: Seriously, I found Howard Stern less offensive. Stern is what he is but at least he's honest about that. That show and shows like it were a huge manipulative lie.

Let's help get this guy married? Let's help two people get to know each other better, and possibly create a relationship? No. Let's show the depths these women will stoop to in order to vie for the attention of some guy they met days ago. :puke:

[geniph]

13. Ah, but remember, it's not shows like that

that threaten the "sanctity" of "traditional" marriage - it's two persons of the same gender marrying that's causing the institution of marriage to crumble at its very foundations! It's not Wife Swap, or the Bachelor, or Marry My Drunken Sister on National Television that's a threat.

Any drunken pair of scumbags can get married in Vegas the very day they meet in the Keno lounge, so long as they're of different genders, and THAT's no threat to marriage, oh no. Some filth-spewing slimeball like Limba-UGH can marry and divorce a half-dozen times, and THAT's no threat to marriage. No, the threat to marriage comes from the very idea of my friends Gregg and Tom, who've been together for 20 years, marrying one another. The horror, the horror!

[ismnotwasm]

14. Speaking of that disgusting Limbaugh

I found his "fun in the Dominican Republic wish I could tell you about it" particularly unfunny. Considering this:
http://www.catwinternational.org/factbook/DominicanR.php
And this:
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2004/05/25/domini8617.htm

Those TV shows are horrible. I can't watch them, if I'm in a patient's room who has say, "wife swap" on (this actually happened)and I'm in doing something I just cringe having to listen to some of it.

[bliss_eternal]

17. I'm still shocked that Wife Swap has remained on the air...

I'm proud to say that I've never watched. I was disappointed and surprised that a friend that I considered a strong woman, with at least some feminist ideals watched this crap regularly...:eyes: Apparently I was wrong about her.

I just don't get how any woman with a shred of self-respect could turn something on with such a title.

[bliss_eternal]

20. ...and once you get the guy, immediately procreate...

:eyes: I wasn't married a month before alleged friends started in on their "when are you going to get started having kids" campaign. :mad: It was sickening to say the least. Am I not more than a wife? Dare I not attempt to develop interests I have outside of motherhood? Or is motherhood the only truly worthy endeavor for women? :eyes:

This is so damaging. My dh has a relative who is attaching herself to any guy that seems interested, because she's bought into the message that she is not worthy on her own. She has a successful career, has bought her own home but still seems to feel none of that means a thing without a guy. Her parents are from the generation of "old maids" so I don't think they are helping the situation much. If a guy mentions the "m" word, she considers him a prospect without even considering if he is something worthy of her time or attention--because she thinks no one else will EVER be interested in marrying her.

Yes, I see she has major esteem issues as well, but the marriage brainwashing is disturbing.

[melnjones]

24. I hear ya on that one...

lol, and the multiple cat thing made me laugh really hard because I live in a self-made zoo. I never feel the need to corral and force-march a man though...only the pressure to take some guy that I'm not attracted to (but who has a thing for me) and somehow convince myself that I'd be happier just dating the dude than I currently am single. "Oh just give him a try!" "You know, you can change him." "He's such a nice guy though!" "You're just setting your standards too high/being too picky." If there's anything that ticks me off, it's being told to settle for something that isn't what I'm looking for in life because I'm 25 and might not find someone better.

[raccoon]

25. Whoever said "you can change him" needs their head examined. nt

[melnjones]

26. That would be my parents :-) nt

[raccoon]

27. Well, didn't mean to insult your folks, but I think it's a mistake

to think you can change somebody else.

I bet there are millions of women who can testify to this.

Probably men too, but it seems much more common for a woman to think she can change a man than vice versa.

[bliss_eternal]

28. So true--

unfortunately many women seem to be socialized and taught from early ages that they CAN change someone outside of themselves, namely men. Whether it is through watching a mother attempt to forge a relationship with married men, abusive men or just try to make some guy over the message is clear. Settle--then try to make him over. :eyes:

Or my personal favorite, you can love someone so much as to make them better with the power of your love. :puke: Such a load of crap...

[melnjones]

29. ha ha, no worries.

I think the worst thing they told me though was that I could have any guy I wanted wrapped around my little finger if I just tried hard enough. Such a damaging thing to tell a kid...if I'm single, then it's clearly my fault. Flirting is a necessary part of fixing the "singleness" problem, as was not setting any sort of strict boundaries with males. Such horribly conflicting messages...don't have sex, b/c that would make you a slut. (Add to that the messages that stuff like wearing nail polish or contact lenses was too worldly and unnecessary...gotta love the Amish influence in my family.) However, flirt and show off your body, and don't throw a fit if they want to do other physical stuff that you're uncomfortable with because that's just what guys want. If you have a problem with that, you're being too sensitive. Take the first guy that shows interest in you that we approve of...stop being so picky (aka, you're not worth anything).

I have built a wonderful relationship with my father in the last 7 years, and am forever grateful for the dad that he has become in my life. Thankfully, relationships can be restored. However, the crap that both my parents put me through still has an effect on me and I still struggle to move beyond the self-image problems that has created.

[spooky3]

15. Agree mostly with one important exception--please get DEXA scans

Your "brittle bones" example does not fit with the rest. It is a genuine health problem that is widely undetected and can be very serious, as opposed to something marketed to sell beauty or luxury products (maybe the diapers are too--I can't speak to that).

I was shocked to be diagnosed with borderline osteoporosis before menopause as a result of my terrific female feminist OBGYN's strong feeling that women should have bone scans to prevent or remedy this problem. This is a serious problem and many women have it but do not know it. I do not have any of the high risk factors and have always drunk milk, eaten yogurt, etc. I called my sister and she made an appointment to have a scan also and her bone density was worse than mine. After researching in on the web and elsewhere I found that the likely cause for me and for many others is that you need to eat a LOT of dairy products daily (as in 3-4 glasses of milk), or take supplements, to get as much as you need. If you have an insurance plan or can afford it, have a DEXA scan when you are 30 so that you can get a baseline measure. Then have one periodically later. If you don't have a bone problem, then you don't have to buy the promoted prescriptions. But I did, and the prescriptions DID and do help.

[bliss_eternal]

16. My intent is not

to debate what are actual valid concerns based on advertising. Nor was it my intent to debunk any valid health issues for women. I'm sorry--I didn't mean to offend you or hit a sore spot. While I understand your addressing my statement of brittle bones as it was a concern for you, I was speaking more in terms of generalities more than I was to any specific condition. This is one of the issues I hear of frequently in tv ads, so I used it as an example. But my using it here doesn't mean I don't feel it isn't a valid concern for some, or many.

But as a whole, I think we can all agree that advertisers, the media and the pharmaceutical companies are out of control and NOT our friends (women).

While I can appreciate your concerns given what you've experienced, I for one had the opposite of your experience in that I had specific issues that weren't addressed by what conventional medicine, nutrition, etc. teaches or advocates.

I felt terrible, and didn't look healthy either. Had I continued on their path, including consuming dairy foods and supplements I'd be considerably sicker and far more miserable than I am today. I can (and do) get the nutrients I need from other foods that don't adversely affect my system the way dairy does. Strength training (working out with weights),helps to prevent osteo concerns as well. But again, this was my personal experience and certainly not going to be applicable to everyone (my personal disclaimer that I am not offering medical advice here).

I'm glad to hear that you got the help you felt you needed to address your condition/concerns. Thank you for sharing about the test that you found helpful. :)

edited for clarity.

[spooky3]

21. thanks, I was not offended; just raising what I thought was a

legitimate point, and giving one example to try to illustrate it. I hope my post did not offend you. My intent also is not to make a case for any type of medicine over any other type nor to tell anyone what intervention will work for them, but instead simply to point out why I thought that the marketing of bone medicines is not in the same category as products to make you feel you are somehow unclean if you don't use a specific vagina product. Sorry if that was unclear. My intention also was not to make a case that you should take these medicines, eat dairy products, stop smoking or do any other specific thing, but rather, in my example, to note how I did not expect to have a condition that the medicine could help and to urge others to get tested.

I am glad that you got the help you felt you needed with your specific issues. You mentioned strength training. As I noted in my post, I had none of the risk factors, one of which is a sedentary lifestyle. I already did all of the recommended things, including not smoking, and engaging in exercise of all types, including weight bearing exercise, more than 10 hours per week for years. The only risk factor that was at all relevant to me was that I probably did not eat enough calcium.

The larger point that we both may want to make is that there is a lot that medical practitioners of all types, alternative or otherwise, simply do not know and that we are all in some sense guinea pigs.

[bliss_eternal]

22. I'm glad that you weren't...;)

I have to be honest, I do have a sore spot where the dairy industry is concerned and the medical establishment. So while it was not your intent of course, a mention of dairy intake bothered me as it is something you see on tv, but it is misleading.

So while I agree with you that osteoporosis is important, they way they addressing it I disagree with. My issue is with the fact that the dairy industry and the medical establishment are working together and aren't being completely honest with people. It's all about money in the grand scheme of things.

I was aware of Dexa scans as I have done a lot of personal research relating to alternative medicine. I think it's wonderful that you recieved one and found out such important information before it was too late. :thumbsup: Unfortunately Dexa's still fall under that grey area and aren't routinely recommended as most docs still don't see them as a necessity. They aren't encouraged as they are considered expensive and fall under the realm of being preventative. In the long run saving people money, health, etc.--not a priority sadly.

http://www.rxalternativemedicine.com/articles/osteoporosis.htm

In medical school, doctors spend the least amount of time on nutrition. Yet food has the power to heal so many issues before they become diseases. This frankly, pisses me off. They just tell everyone the same thing--drink milk, take calcium supplements. :mad: Many human beings have a difficult time digesting dairy products which can create other issues in our bodies, but you'll never hear this in the tv ads or even in doctor's offices because ultimately they have to sell their products. Everyone is individual but the medical establishment doesn't have the time to treat us as such.

No one is partnering with the farmers of America and touting leafy green vegetables as a means of getting the calcium required to prevent osteoporosis are they? No. Why? There's no money in it for them. That pisses me off, too.

Dairy and calcium supplements in my opinion are completely oversold as appropriate means to address women preventing osteoporosis and the whole thing pisses me off. If doctors were taught to look at our diets, they could assess our health based on what we are or are not eating. They could give tests that assess what vitamins and nutrients our bodies are lacking in. Such tests do exist, but you won't hear about them in most medical offices.

It sounds like you have a more evolved and concerned physician than most--good for you! It makes me angry that there are things out there that people can do to help themselves, but most (western)physisicians aren't going to help you find them.

Forgive my rant--I'm not angry with you or your post. Just felt I should explain my disdain for the dairy industry and the medical establishment such as it is. :hi:

[spooky3]

23. Excellent points (eom).