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I'm not doing anything wrong--let them listen

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The Blue Flower Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-11-06 03:48 PM
Original message
I'm not doing anything wrong--let them listen
Response to the story that the president lied about NSA wiretapping and that the government is, indeed, creating a database of tens of millions of everyday communications among Americans—the largest in history (http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2006-05-10-nsa_x.htm?csp=34) --falls into two general categories

One response to this explosive story, based on the old-fashioned notion that this is a nation of laws, is outrage. The other, based on a willingness to go along with whatever the administration says, is, “I’m not doing anything wrong, so let them listen. They’re just trying to protect us.”

To the latter response, I would like to ask a few questions. The first is, protect us from what? Let’s posit an enemy that wants to overthrow the government of the United States and subdue its people. Doesn’t overthrowing the government in fact mean throwing out our Constitution? If an enemy did away with the Constitution, would it not follow that we the people would end up powerless under an invader? So if we’re doing it to ourselves, what are we supposed to be protecting ourselves against?

“Another 9-11,” you say. In fact, the 9-11 Commission determined that this government ignored information about the attacks that came from foreign intelligence agencies around the world. They also ignored information from our own agents about foreign nationals taking flight lessons. If they couldn’t take action on that limited amount of information, how are we to believe they will be able to sift through tens of millions of communications and take adequate measures to protect us?

“Doesn’t matter. If it’s for our security, I don’t have a problem with it.” Well, then, let’s talk about security. We feel secure in our homes or out on the street because we have a basic faith that we live in a society in which people who try to hurt us or our families will be caught and punished. As a society, we have agreed on what criminal behavior is and have created a code of laws to enforce our values. In recent years, however, we’ve seen what happens when the goalposts are moved and what we call ‘crime’ is no longer crime. For example, bank robbery is wrong when the money is carried out the front door, but not when it disappears into the cooked books of a fraudulent pension or savings and loan scheme. Lying by a top government official is impeachable when it’s about a personal matter, but not when it takes this country into a disastrous war.

Have you wondered just who is doing the listening? Do you believe they’re pure souls whose motives are beyond reproach? By listening without warrants, they’ve already placed themselves outside of the law, so I doubt it. Could they be political operatives looking for leverage against their opponents or minions of corporations trolling for new customers? Might they even be government-sanctioned blackmailers looking to gain power over private citizens by gathering the most intimate information? Since they’re breaking the law—acting criminally by definition—I would definitely withhold my trust.

In 1993, I attended a panel discussion of crime novelists from the Western hemisphere. The Mexican and Cuban authors, whose names I don’t remember, spoke cogently about the relativism of law in regard to how societies define crime. The Mexican author pointed out that in Mexico, where police corruption is practically institutional, crime fiction is often about honest citizens bringing the cops to justice—exactly the opposite of American crime fiction. The Cuban author commented that because the Cuban system was so political, the government had codified an entirely different definition of crime. In his society, where material goods were so scarce and the penalties were so harsh, robbery was rare. But crimes of thought and speech were doggedly tracked down and punished, and that’s what his stories were about.

The point is, the foundation of law that allows us to live our lives with some sense of security is vague at best, can shift according to interpretations on the bench, and is undergoing aggressive attack at the highest levels of government. The Boston Globe recently reported that the president of the United States has himself broken 750 laws and has regularly violated the Constitution. He has declared that the laws passed by Congress, even those he has signed, carry no weight if he chooses not to follow them. (http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/editorials/articles/2006/05/10/bush_vs_congress/)

Suppose what you feel safe saying or doing today becomes a crime tomorrow? Suppose someone you’re talking to today gets placed on a secret watch list because of something they’ve done that you know nothing about? By association, you are now an enemy of the state and can be designated an enemy combatant on no one but the president’s say.

According to the Bush administration, your home may now be broken into, and you may be spirited away with no word to your family or access to legal counsel. You may then be tortured according to the rules laid out by the Attorney General, contrary to laws and treaties that are supposed to be firmly in place. Before the days of the “unitary executive” who now signs legislation into law and nullifies it with a presidential signing all at the same time, you were protected from such a scenario. Today, you and the members of your family are now completely vulnerable to this abuse. Our latest appointees to the Supreme Court are fully on board with it, so don’t look to the courts to protect you.

So are we safer yet? Let me pose one last question: How do you feel about these powers in the hands of a Democrat; for the sake of argument, President Hillary Rodham Clinton?

Throwing out the Constitution is the first step in subduing the people of this country. To preserve America, our foundation of freedom must be defended at all costs. Every government official and every member of the military have sworn an oath that they agree. Nullifying this foundation one article at a time, removing it one plank at a time, guarantees that what we consider to be security will most certainly disappear.





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katty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-11-06 03:57 PM
Response to Original message
1. if you want to listen: follow the LAW, present evidence to FISA
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EllieGreen Donating Member (116 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-11-06 03:59 PM
Response to Original message
2. A wise man once said...
...those who would trade their freedom for security deserve neither.

Suck it, Dubya, and your anti-American actions.
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lyonn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-11-06 04:02 PM
Response to Original message
3. THIS IS GOOD, describes all the reason this president
is ruining our Constitution. Not much more to add. People don't thoroughly understand how the govt. can intrude on your life and you not be able to defend yourself.
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Minnesota Libra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-11-06 04:10 PM
Response to Original message
4. The "I haven't done anything wrong..." argument that goes on to claim....
.."....people that haven't done anything wrong have nothing to hide" just burns me to no end and I answer them this way.....

I haven't done anything against my country either so the only thing I have to hide is my privacy. I live in a country where the Constitution says I can't be spied on just because someone wants to do so. It seems now, however, I live in North Korea or China where a person is always guilty until proven innocent."
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shadowknows69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-11-06 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. It's no business of anyone who I call
someone knowing is an invasion of my privacy period. Impeach now!!
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renate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-11-06 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. when I'm sitting in my living room reading I'm not doing anything wrong
But I don't want people to come up to the window and peek through a hole in the curtain.
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kiki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-11-06 04:58 PM
Response to Original message
6. "Take my liberty, I'm afraid to die."
The freeper rewrite of the classic Patrick Henry quote.

(Credit to another DUer whose name eludes me in my drunken state.)
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C_U_L8R Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-11-06 05:05 PM
Response to Original message
7. there are lots of things
that the govt doesn't need to know...
like what I say to my employer or
my future employer or my doctor
or my attorney or my tax preparer
or my children or my spouse.

It;s none of their business...
and it's MY right to privacy
that they are infringing on.

Republicans !! Get the fuck out of my life !!!!
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this_side_up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-11-06 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. they want to control the pot trade n/t
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-11-06 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. I was just debating one of them and they actually said this:
"If there is anything in my phone records that will help the government, I have no problem with them getting it."

Well, then volunteer your own records, idiot!



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C_U_L8R Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-11-06 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. If your "buddy" has no problem with it
then he should move to North Korea where it's standard practice.
But this is America.. thank you very much... land of the FREE.

(not land of the ratfink republican scumbags)
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-11-06 05:13 PM
Response to Original message
10. My idea for a documentary
Have one of these freepers that says this have their house searched by a cop. They said it's OK. So you get the filmmaker and the cop to go to the house and the cop does the search.

Or we need Hollywood to make a movie making it graphic for these idiots.

This argument is made by those who are willing to live in a dictatorship. They may live in a free country, but that's just because they happened to be born there. They are willing to live in a dictatorship.
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Minnesota Libra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-11-06 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. What TV needs to do is run the movie "1984" over and over nt
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n2doc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-12-06 07:28 AM
Response to Original message
14. I guess "trust" in government is only when * is running it
The thing I find amazing about these folks is that they have this incredible trust in Bushco. In the past, even under St. Ronnie, the presumption was that the Government always F**ked things up and that private biz was the way to go. Distrust of the Government was standard operating proceedure. Now these same folks are saying that the Government (and let's face it, >80% of the people in the Government are the same from administration to administration) is perfect, never makes mistakes and is always looking after your own personal best interests. Not even the most fervent Socialists would make that claim, yet here it is in this country from the same folks who 6 years ago were waiting for the black helicopters to arrive.
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-12-06 09:35 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. They complain about the nanny state but what is more of a nanny
state than the one that "protects you" personally from all possible crimes?

They complain about a few welfare programs and the government having the power to do it, but want a state powerful enough to protect them from all possible crime? It's like asking for the government to step in as parent when you reach the age of majority.

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Ksec Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-12-06 09:37 PM
Response to Original message
16. Im not a pervert, let them watch me in action in my bedroom
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