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Syrinx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 01:53 AM
Original message
Shouldn't The Grown-Ups Fight The Wars?
Edited on Sun Jun-04-06 01:54 AM by Syrinx
This is an email that I received from a friend. I thought it was interesting.

I remember sitting in a hot Tuscaloosa High School, trying to be attentive to what my American History teacher was saying. He was talking about war, of which I had no interest whatsoever, even though my country was in a war in Viet Nam at the time. He rattled on, just a distant voice in my 16 year old ears, until he said something that caught my attention. He began talking about why countries send their youngsters to fight wars, rather than adults. The youngsters, he said, are right out of their parental homes, often just out of high school. They are still accustomed to taking orders from adults. They trust adults. They are still at the age where they believe bad things happen to other people, not them. He created, in our minds, a scene on a battlefield, with an 18 year old, and a 35 year old. The sergeant orders the eighteen year old onto the battlefield, to what is very likely a certain death. The eighteen year old is too afraid to disobey. He's too scared to do anything other than what he is told. He goes. The same sergeant then orders the 35 year old to the battlefield. The man stops and evaluates the situation. He thinks of home. His family. He is unsure that his death at this particular moment will make a significant contribution toward the goal the war is trying to achieve. He is not a coward. Not a coward at all.

The older man has something the teenager does not have. He is able to make judgments independently. He possesses a brain which tends to be naturally more analytical. He is cautious. His personal ethics are well developed. He is wise.

When I first saw footage of Jessica Lynch on television, I thought so this is it. This is what we have come to. We are sending teenage girls to fight our wars. Hmm. So what if we didn't? Should adults be the ones to fight (what seems to be endless) wars?? Suppose we sent, say, ages 27 - 45 or thereabouts. That age range would actually include some of the population which determines whether or not we engage in war. That's an interesting notion. I wonder if, some of them, realizing that they might be called upon to actually go fight, might then think twice. Might then sit back, and think, well...let's see.....maybe there is another way to accomplish this goal.

The American men I know, are not cowards. They're not sissies. They're not afraid. They would go fight and risk their lives if necessary to protect their families and their country. But only, only, if they were personally convinced there was no other way. And of course "no other way", is the only way we should ever engage in war.

The news about the problem with innocents being killed in Iraq has brought all this back into my mind. The military has said "these were trained soldiers" (who allegedly perpetrated these shootings). Trained, yes, in some ways. But you can't "train" emotional maturity. You can't "train" wisdom. You can't "train" coping with enormous stress for such long periods of time, when the greatest duration of stress you have experienced prior to war, is boot-camp, I imagine. I'm not excusing it. I think humans know while their age is still in "single digits"that it is wrong to take the life of an innocent person. I'm just saying they are in extraordinary circumstances they are not truly prepared to cope with on an emotional level, and whose fault is that? But I do wonder. Would a 40 year old man have broken into a private residence and shot a 10 year old boy that was hiding under his bed? (If that in fact happened.) Maybe. Maybe not.

Sending our children to fight wars is not unique to this administration, nor are we the only country who practices it. And the reasons are given above. If the grown-ups determine that military action is so desperately indicated that the sacrifice of our youngsters (our "young men and women" as they say, who, I think we all know are not really even old enough to vote or have a beer with their pizza), is justified, then let the grown- ups go do the fighting. It's interesting to me that when they are home we call them teenagers, but they join the military and graduate to "young men and women". It's just a disguise. We disguise the words because we can't bring ourselves to say "and let's support and pray for all our teenagers who are fighting this war". Or, "two teenagers were killed today in Baghdad". And why can't they have a beer? Because they are still physically growing. Their brains are still maturing. Because they are too young and not emotionally stable enough or mature enough to handle the effects of alcohol. And why can't they vote? Because they are not informed? They are not savvy at decision making; and might have a tendency to support frivolous principles? I know I'm not the first person to say these things. Lots of people think it and have said it. It's an old, old, plan to send our teens and youngsters to fight our wars and we need to change it. I knew it was wrong when I heard the words coming out of my American History teacher's mouth when I was in the 11th grade. He didn't say so, but he knew it was wrong too. So, we just somehow shrug our shoulder's, know they're kids, but send them nonetheless because that is the way it is, and the way it has always been. Yes, that is the way it has always been, and it is absolutely wrong. We call ourselves sending them to fight for freedom and that's ironic because for many of them, it's a freedom they haven't even truly experienced yet. Not really. I don't know about you, but I didn't experience true freedom until I was well out of high school, and to some degree, college, and out of the jurisdiction of the watchful eyes of my parents and teachers. My freedom at that age was determined by what my parents permitted, which wasn't always to my liking, but as it turns out, was a good thing. And I've had it for a long time now. And I love it. Freedom. You can't beat it. And yes, it is well worth fighting for.

Shouldn't adolescents be permitted the luxury to stay home and grow up and enjoy our wonderful country and all the delightful and amazing freedoms it has before they go defend it? When it comes to war, I'm uncooperative and a sissy. I admit it. But if push came to shove would I die for our country? Like most American's I probably would. But I would have to be certain in my own mind and within my own reason that it was the right thing and the only thing to do. Not because someone pointed their finger at me and said "go", and I blindly went because I didn't know what else to do, or I was afraid of "getting in trouble" if I didn't. And of course, any 18 year old will voice the typical teenage rant of "we are grown, we are smart, we know everything, blah, blah, blah, the same things they have been saying since time began. But we know better. Don't we? They go over there thinking they are going to be hero's, and then they will come home. We send them over there knowing perfectly well there is a good chance they won't return. And in the meantime, the innocents are killing the innocents.
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 02:07 AM
Response to Original message
1. it's patronizing
an 18 year old is not a child and the young adult at that time of life is usually free of the career or family responsibilities that would divide the heart and attention of the older person

reality is that society would be in a constant state of disruption if people were yanked out of their lives in mid-career, after the peak of their health has passed, to fight in wars that require youth and strength

it's bad enough that we actually DO have huge numbers of older people's lives being destroyed by this war, because they are indeed being yanked out of their careers at mid-life

we're hearing of people being stop lossed or called back in their 40s or 50s

where does it end?

we do have a volunteer service, i don't see the need to insult 18 year olds by saying that they lack judgment or that they have never experienced freedom, they were not drafted, they made a CHOICE to serve and perhaps they know better than the emailer what they want to do with their lives

not everyone is college bound and there is no freedom in a dead end job in a dead end town, for many young people the service is their chance to see the world


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bluesbassman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 02:29 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. Have you talked to a recruiter recently?
These "kids" are sold a bill of goods on what the service provides for them. Some flea infested rathole in the middle of the desert is not "seeing the world". And I'm sorry but for the most part 18 year olds do lack the judgment to make these decisions. Maybe if more "prime of life" people who do possess more sound judgment, were being forced to serve, we might not be in this mess.

And BTW, my dad was 26 years old when he was called to serve in WWII. I guess maybe he should not have been forced to go, seeing how it caused him to miss four of those productive career years.
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Syrinx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 02:32 AM
Response to Reply #1
5. I disagree
I don't think the email was patronizing at all.

An 18-year-old doesn't have the emotional maturity of a 40-year-old.

The person who wrote the email, by the way, is a highly-educated psychologist and a liberal. And I don't think the message was really intended as a serious policy proposal, as much as just something to think about.
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 02:50 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. my dad would be shocked to have been told to wait until he was 26!
Edited on Sun Jun-04-06 02:54 AM by pitohui
my dad came from a farm background, no opportunity, joining the army as soon as he left high school gave him his chance to see the world and, yes, come back and be the first in his family to graduate college

i can't see him being v. happy if he had been told to twiddle his thumbs on a stupid farm until he was 26 years old, he was plenty mature enough to know he wanted more out of life when he was 18!

in any case an army requires young recruits because they are at the peak of their PHYSICAL capability

it is perfectly reasonable for younger people who have the time, health, and youth to be the soldiers

i don't know how old you are but no way i can march any distance w. a loaded backpack in my 40s the way i did in my teens

the writer may be a very fine person but it's just...silly, isn't it?

by the way, you can say "drafted" if you think middle aged people should be "forced to serve" -- and i can just laugh, you must be VERY young and unaware of the physical realities of what happens to people's bodies as they age

attempting to "draft" an army of middle-aged people with bad backs, knees, ankles, and god don't forget the bifocals, that is funny, maybe they can "draft" us during those awkward years between 50 and 65 when we can't buy health insurance but can't get medicare and the VA can pay all our medical expenses, yeah, that's the ticket

heck of a shambling mess of an army that would be!



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bluesbassman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 03:32 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. Of course its "reasonable" for the young people to serve.
When it's "reasonable" for them to serve. I enlisted in the volunteer US Army in 1976 at the age of 18, do the math and that makes me 48, and if I had to serve my country today I'd do it, bad back and all. But that's not the point I was trying to make and you know it. The point is that we're sending kids who are making decisions not based on patriotism, but economic need. And they're not being told the reality of what they're getting into. Not from the recruiters, not from the Pentagon, and certainly not from b*sh. Regardless of the fabulous monetary incentives, and the chance to see so much of the "world", I don't think even very many of these "kids" would be signing up if they knew the whole story. You don't believe me? Then tell me why enlistment has dropped so dramatically since the truth of who they're actually serving has finally started reaching the average American?

Amd FYI, my dad wasn't "twiddling his thumbs" waiting to be drafted, he was 26 when the war broke out. But I guess he was a slacker and should have joined 8 years earlier in anticipation that we would go to war.
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Syrinx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 03:35 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. I'm on the cusp of middle-age, if not quite there yet
And I speak from personal experience when I say that 40-year-olds are more mature than 18-year-olds. Not that I don't still do something really stupid periodically. But not nearly as much as I did at a younger age.

Joining the army to "see the world" may have been a fine idea sometime in the past. But volunteering while the Bush family controls the world is nothing short of self-hating. Getting cut down in the desert for the sake of Halliburton and the Carlyle Group is not my idea of Patriotic Duty, nor my idea of effective self-help.

Again, I think the email was more of a philosophical "what-if," than a serious policy proposal. We would be far less likely to get entangled in misadventureous quagmires like the Iraq War, if the war "deciders" were also the war fighters.

(Sorry for the delay answering. DU seemed to go to sleep for a while.)
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 06:42 AM
Response to Reply #5
10. I agree with you.
18 year olds are still prone to "obey" the orders of the great gym coach in uniform. At the age of 38, for example, it usually would be less likely for an individual to take seriously some red-faced person yelling at you because your shoes are polished properly.

More, 18-year olds do not tend to have the financial investments in a country that are worth protecting. Instead, those with the investments that they seek to protect send 18-year olds, because they are more willing to kill and die when instructed to do so by their gym coach in uniform.
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Syrinx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-05-06 03:29 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. thanks!
It's cool that my first real interaction with H2O Man is him agreeing with me. ;)

I love your essays. Please keep them coming!
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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-05-06 03:59 AM
Response to Reply #5
13. nor do they have the brain development
the prefrontal cortex - responsible for decision making - doesn't fully mature until about age 25.
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 08:35 AM
Response to Reply #1
11. Oh those poor middle aged people
they are the ones who should THINK TWICE about causing the war.

At least they have lives to disrupt.

Someone who is only 18-25 and is killed in a war never gets a chance at life.

Screw that, the older people should go and suffer the "disruption" - if they really think the war is necessary they will be willing to put up with a little "disruption."

There is no excuse regarding physical conditioning nowadays either. War is not fought as hand to hand combat and older people might even be better at it.

Men of all ages served in the civil war and other earlier wars. It was only with Vietnam that it was discovered that the "obedience factor" made it easier to get involved in them.


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bluesbassman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 02:17 AM
Response to Original message
2. Thanks for posting this.
It should be required reading when you purchase a "Support Our Troops" ribbon for your car.

IMHO, this essay sums up the dirty secret behind b*sh's "war". Most of those kids are in the service because they are trying to provide for their education or because they really don't have a better option. Sure there are some who are into the Flag waving rhetoric, but I bet that loses it's luster the first time they see one of their buddies limbs blown off.

As a vet myself, I have never understood how b*sh pulled this con off on other vets and our active duty soldiers.
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magellan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 02:23 AM
Response to Original message
3. Exactly right.
Thanks for posting.
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KarenS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 06:22 AM
Response to Original message
9. If the fat old rich white men, that declare and profit from the Wars
actually had to go fight in them,,,, I suspect we'd have less war.

:shrug:
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