For an Exhausted, Disenchanted Army There is Still No End in Sight...

[bridgit]

'As the shock of the allegations of the massacre at Haditha sinks in across America this weekend, one key question is being asked. If the stories of indiscriminate and cold-blooded killings of innocent civilians, from children to a man in a wheelchair, are proven to be true, how could the soldiers have behaved this way?

Nobody will be in the business of providing excuses for the soldiers if charges are filed against them. Yet, legitimate debate is bound to start on the conditions they were enduring in Iraq and how they contributed to a bloody rampage. And is there something about America's own culture - its attachment to guns - that played a part?' http://www.commondreams.org/headlines06/0603-04.htm

[Kagemusha]

1. "Nobody will be providing excuses" because that'd be blaming officers.

And we all know that officers aren't to blame for the independent behavior of the subordinates they're supposedly commanding. It's the new command principle: individuals are to blame for all wrongdoing, not the chain of command.

[wakeme2008]

2. It is more than officers it goes to Rummy and Bush

No Genva Convention in Iraq... That set the tone......

[Toots]

6. I think it is much deeper than that much more ingrained

I believe there is a core of Americans (about 30%) that have absolutely no problem with this behavior. They would just as soon "glass the whole damn area" They call themselves right to lifers but to them life has no real value at all. Rush Limbaugh is one of those and he is allowed to spew his propaganda at will throughout the military. To him torture is no worse than a college prank but he never went to college so he has no real idea what is done in college. He also never went into the military. It is real easy to direct the killing and encourage it from the overstuffed armchair he spends his days in. America has a real problem with guns and violence. It is not just a few soldiers that "snapped". This same shit happened in Vietnam and probably every "war" the US has been engaged in. 30% of the population of America is sick, warped, crazy, however you want to call it but it is a fact. America needs to take a long hard look into it's soul because their is evil dwelling there.

[sarge43]

3. Which is another way of saying

the military has degenerated into an armed mob.

[Kagemusha]

5. Not quite that bad, but it's how shall I put this... "loosely controlled."

As in, the worst parts of the military in Iraq are told where to go and what to do, and what happens from there, there's not all that much control over. Soldiers respond to their training to protect their own and engage "the enemy", whatever form "the enemy" takes. And most people resist the temptation to do intentional wrongdoing. But, when triggered, soldiers can go way too far if leadership is this loose. Individual virtue is not what militaries rely on to prevent atrocities. That requires leadership, too.

There's leadership lacking here.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

4. In the Marine Corps, gravity rules. Shit flows downhill.

[bridgit]

7. then imo it's up to we the people, to suggest changes from the top...

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

8. I certainly agree.

Unfortunately, it's still the "top" that makes the rules and will be as long as we allow "leaders" to run things.

[bridgit]

9. again, as with viet nam, and in too many cases, we have the same...

some the VERY same civilian politicians and bureaucrats making decisions that military experts should be making x( when will they learn and after how much blood & money

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

10. Well, I have little faith in the wisdom of "military experts".

If, you mean the generals, admirals, who are waiting to take their seats at Raytheon, General Dynamics, and Lockheed, when they retire.

[bridgit]

11. fair enough...