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Snivi Yllom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-11-06 07:52 PM
Original message
Zarqawi's elimination will help end the war and will make a difference.
Edited on Mon Jun-12-06 08:03 AM by newyawker99
Zarqawi was a global terrorist with global aspirations. His demise will serve to end this terrible and unnecessary war. Unfortunately the war allowed his sick putrid mind to stew and ferment with all of the necessary ingredients to become a major player on the world terrorism stage. As sick it is to contemplate, Zarqawi enjoyed what he spewed and spread.

His actions were real and tangible, not those of a man made boogieman, the results clearly rendered via lost limbs, coffins, charred holes in the ground, and missing family members. He painted his own infamous legacy with the blood of hundreds. Zarqawi's legacy lives on via the scores of terrorists he trained in Iraq, but have left that battlefield with the anticipation of spreading bloodshed even further. Stopping him from providing on the job training to any more potential terrorists with Western targets (and Middle Eastern) in mind is a damn good thing.

I believe Zarqawi was a central powerful leader and his death will lead to a weakened insurgency organizational structure.

Furthermore, I do not believe his death was faked in any way. From what it has been reported so far, I see that there was an international operation to locate and either capture or kill Zarqawi, obviously with major help from Jordan. This was an effort not driven by political agenda, but by intense security driven fears and concerns. One day the international details of the intense search for Zarqawi will make for a fascinating book, maybe in 20 years or so when it's declassified.

There is potential for American troops to be withdrawn sooner with Zarqawi out of the picture. If the insurgency is hampered, Iraq becomes more stable, and American troops can leave the hell on earth they have inhabited for the past 3 years, then yes, Zarqawi's death is a good thing. I am under no illusions that there will be any immediate withdrawal, in fact I am certain US troops will permanently be a part of Iraq. However, I am hopeful and optimistic Zarqawi's death and the simultaneous filling of key posts in the Iraqi government is a turning point.

Did Zarqawi want to die a martyr? Did an F-16 provide exactly what Zarqawi had been seeking for 10 years? Judging by the last video of him hamming it up with a machine gun in the April videotape I saw a different man. I saw someone who's job was to become a terrorist. He liked his job, he did not want to die. Zarqawi had much bigger plans in store for Iraq, the Middle East and the West.

I am glad Zarqawi is gone for the sake of the innocent Iraqi's and all of the troops serving as sitting ducks for IED bombs planted by his trainees. Will his shoes be filled? That's the million dollar question. Osama is still out there. What will he do next?


the following article discusses some of my concerns and realizations.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/11/world/middleeast/11jordan.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

June 11, 2006
Terrorists Trained by Zarqawi Went Abroad, Jordan Says
By MICHAEL SLACKMAN and SCOTT SHANE
AMMAN, Jordan, June 10 — At the time of his death, Abu Musab al-Zarqawi was still trying to transform his organization from one focused on the Iraqi insurgency into a global operation capable of striking far beyond Iraq's borders, intelligence experts here and in the West agree.

His recruiting efforts, according to high-ranking Jordanian security officials interviewed Saturday, were threefold: He sought volunteers to fight in Iraq and others to become suicide bombers there, but he also recruited about 300 who went to Iraq for terrorist training and sent them back to their home countries, where they await orders to carry out strikes.

There have been scattered reports that Iraq had become a training ground, but Jordan's assessment was the first to offer firm numbers.

Of a range of intelligence experts in the United States, Europe and Jordan interviewed about Mr. Zarqawi's reach, only the Jordanians offered such detail.

Counterterrorism officials in the United States said that they, too, had seen a flow of terrorists into Iraq from other countries, including Saudi Arabia and Egypt, seeking training under Mr. Zarqawi and his associates.

But they said that they believed the "bleed out" of people trained and sent home to await orders was probably significantly lower than 300.

More at link...

EDIT: COPYRIGHT. PLEASE POST ONLY 4 OR 5 PARAGRAPHS
FROM THE COPYRIGHTED NEWS SOURCE PER DU RULES.
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tocqueville Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-11-06 07:56 PM
Response to Original message
1. Zarquawi was a poor leader and a bad strategist
he could only blow up civilians which pissed of teh Shiites and the Iranis that probably turned him in. He represented only a couple of percents of the insurgency. His death means very little strategically. Besides Al Quaeda will probably replace him with a far smarter person, because it's not that difficult...

all above is just spin
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Halliburton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-11-06 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #1
8. he can't even reload his rifle
he was more of a symbol more than anything.
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Snivi Yllom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-11-06 08:59 PM
Response to Reply #8
16. a symbol? Not important?
how about these?




Whether its people or actions, symbols make history. Zarqawi made infamous history.




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Dutch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-12-06 09:25 AM
Response to Reply #16
31. Interesting you chose che as your first example
Given that it was, above all, his death that made him into such a powerful and potent symbol. Actually I'm glad Zarqawi's gone, but you're overestimating the positive impact his death will make to the point of absurdity.
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Snivi Yllom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-12-06 10:16 AM
Response to Reply #31
35. Why are you glad he's gone?
You must to some degree think he was a bad enough to make you think the world is better without him.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-11-06 09:08 PM
Response to Reply #8
19. My husband said he was a rock star
and so was ML King and JFK. Powerful and impossible to replace. And we all know what happens to those kinds of rock stars in our modern world.
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Snivi Yllom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-11-06 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #19
23. Donald Trump
a terrorist Donald Trump

they both leveraged themselves into positions of fame and power
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OmmmSweetOmmm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-12-06 08:43 AM
Response to Reply #8
27. Actually he looked like an actor because what we saw with the rifle gaff
was an outtake.
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Snivi Yllom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-11-06 08:48 PM
Response to Reply #1
15. Disagree, his atacks were well publicized
By getting credit and becoming well known, the power of his attacks were equal to 100 attacks by unknown insurgents.


Tactically his attacks were a small percentage of the overall insurgency, strategically he was much more important to the insurgency. Zarqawi was the Donald Trump of terorrism, a blatant self promoter who used his name to highlight his actions.

His attacks on Shiites helped spark a larger civil war within Iraq.

another good background article
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1202918,00.html


By the time he died, al-Zarqawi had not only rewritten the history of the insurgency in Iraq but also bequeathed to the world a deadly new type of terrorist. While Osama bin Laden and Ayman al-Zawahiri issued impotent threats from their hideouts, al-Zarqawi got his hands bloody in Iraq, turning it into the holy war's primary battlefield. He became the jihad's eminent fighter-superstar, embracing and embellishing his infamy with brazen declarations and brutal atrocities--he personally decapitated American Nicholas Berg on videotape, sent scores of suicide bombers to their doom, killed fellow Muslims and attacked their houses of worship. He extended his reach beyond Iraq, dispatching suicide bombers to attack hotels in his native Jordan last November, killing 60.

It was not just his insistence on remaining on the front lines of the battle that set him apart from his al-Qaeda elders. As the insurgency unfolded, al-Zarqawi articulated and then acted upon an ideology more forbidding and toxic than even bin Laden may have imagined. In branding Shi'ites as betrayers of the faith and calling for their liquidation, al-Zarqawi stoked a war within Islam itself--one that is being played out in the streets of Iraq every day, with Iraqis engaging in the kind of sectarian frenzy that al-Zarqawi had advocated all along.
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bahrbearian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-11-06 08:03 PM
Response to Original message
2. Zarqawi was a global terrorist ????
Really ...
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karlrschneider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-11-06 08:06 PM
Response to Original message
3. Uh, did you perchance neglect to quote and attribute the first 2 paras?
/////

:eyes:
???
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applegrove Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-11-06 08:06 PM
Response to Original message
4. Let's hope something stops the war from going from excrutiatingly horrible
to something else. I don't know what. But it pretty much couldn't get worse.
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ContraBass Black Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-11-06 08:21 PM
Response to Reply #4
10. "But it pretty much couldn't get worse."
Yes it could.
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applegrove Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-11-06 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. Let's hope it does something to stop the war. Wind it up. Let's hope.
Kids are being killed every day. That is as bad as it gets.

Let's hope.

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Snivi Yllom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-11-06 08:40 PM
Response to Reply #4
14. hope that it ends
Yes I am hopeful, and this was a hopeful moment for me.
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Roland99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-11-06 08:09 PM
Response to Original message
5. Hunh? Is my sarcasm detection meter on the fritz again?
Here, read this to find out about Zarqawi and cut thru the propagand and BS


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=1387710

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peacetalksforall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-11-06 08:13 PM
Response to Original message
6. You are unique in that you seem so confident with the sources that
have allowed you to so confidently believe in.

I don't believe anything this administration says or does. It is always necessary to wait, watch, analyze, read as much as possible to be in a position to finally figure out the truth. We shouldn't have to be this disbelieving and we shouldn't have to work so hard to figure it out.

This country is in a sewer of lies.

We can't trust our State Dept. We can't trust our Intelligence services. We sure as heck can't trust the corporations. Nor the military. We can't believe corporate propaganda networks. An entire force of right wingers is moving forward on destroying our judicial system. It is the intention of these people to make a gruel of Congress.

This is not my country and there is NO TRUTH.

To make it worse, some in the Democratic Party facilitate the Republican agenda.

I can't understand why any person who attempts to keep up with what is going on (to the best of their ability) would believe these people.

Z should have been taken alive. We have been wasting lives and spending a fortune to buy and torture people for intelligence. So we know where the kingpin of intelligence is if you want to believe these fools) and we the DON'T capture him for the intelligence???????????? Stupid, lying, inhumans. That's what we have.

So we're only left with another event to figure out - what was the reason for killing him? What a waste of lives, money, torture.
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jobycom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-11-06 08:14 PM
Response to Original message
7. Supply and demand
If there is a demand for what al-Zarqawi was doing, then someone will step into his place. If there wasn't a demand, no one would have followed him in the first place. It's possible that he was the type of genius that will be impossible to replace, so that whoever follows him will not be as successful. But that's unlikely. We have trained many thousands of terrorist leaders, and inspired many clever amateurs.

We'll see.
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ContraBass Black Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-11-06 08:20 PM
Response to Original message
9. Zarqawi was a regional terrorist, who was reprimanded for incompetence
Edited on Sun Jun-11-06 08:21 PM by ContraBass Black
And stupidity. He will be replaced, though hopefully not by somebody any smarter or more effective.

Sadr remains untouched. Various factions will continue to fight for their piece of the new Iraq, and Americans will continue to die trying to bring order.

The death of Zarqawi is no loss to this world, but that doesn't make it a massive gain.
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Snivi Yllom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-12-06 10:22 AM
Response to Reply #9
36. regional like Jordan and Iraq?
That's international.


http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:MyTg8yNnNR8J:iht.com/articles/2006/06/09/opinion/edben.php+zarqawi+golden+mosque+herald+iht&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1

Moreover, because of Zarqawi's success in exploiting anger among Sunnis over losing their long domination of Iraq, the threat of a broader conflict between Islam's two largest sects now hangs over a broad swath of the world.

As such, fears are growing of unrest in countries like Saudi Arabia, whose Shiite minority is concentrated in the Eastern Province, where the largest oil fields are; Bahrain, which has a Sunni monarchy and Shiite minority; Lebanon, with its civil war still fresh in memory; and Pakistan, which has been plagued by violence for decades. Should the sectarian conflict in Iraq worsen, Sunni neighbors like Turkey and Saudi Arabia could soon be facing off against Shiite Iran. Farther afield, Zarqawi had been rapidly building a network that has raised the anxieties of intelligence and law enforcement officials in Europe and elsewhere. This adds more complexity to the situation for those who were trying to cope with the new breed of so-called self-starter terrorists, like those responsible for the bombings in London last year and in Madrid the year before.

According to the U.S. National Counterterrorism Center, Zarqawi's operatives are at work in 40 countries and linked with 24 extremist organizations. At a terrorism trial in Germany last autumn, a judge declared that "Zarqawi should also be sitting on the defendants' bench." In Afghanistan, local intelligence experts believe that Zarqawi was responsible for dispatching operatives to increase the violence against the government and NATO forces.
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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-11-06 08:24 PM
Response to Original message
11. How come?
Is it because Bush and his minions have lied to you about everything else so you figure the odds have to be in your favor that they are not lying this time maybe?

Don
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Snivi Yllom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-11-06 09:02 PM
Response to Reply #11
17. about what?
That was too general a post to answer.

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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-11-06 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #17
24. How come you think...
...Zarqawi's elimination will help end the war and will make a differnce?

Is it because Bush and his minions have lied to you about everything else so you figure the odds have to be in your favor that they are not lying this time maybe?

Don
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Snivi Yllom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-12-06 08:38 AM
Response to Reply #24
26. Anyone who blows up a mosque like Golden mosque
is an incredibly negative and divisive force in Iraq. I have not heard Bush or his minions claiming Zarqawi's death will end the war.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/02/22/AR2006022200454.html

not written by Bush 'minions'. Zarqawi was destabilizing and was trying to instigate a full on civil war. He was a walking piece of shit and Iraq is better off with him gone.

http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0226-26.htm
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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-12-06 09:09 AM
Response to Reply #26
30. Do you think the Iraqis are just going to forget our Shock and Awe?
We killed tens of thousands of innocent Iraqis. You think any of those dead people have family members? Pissed off family members?

You think the Iraqi people aren't aware of the two British undercover SAS members who were caught dressed like Sadr followers by Iraqi police in a car full of weapons and explosives who the British had to bust out of an Iraqi prison with tanks?

Americans might forget this stuff, but I guarantee the Iraqi people are not going to forget.

Take that to the bank.

Don
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Snivi Yllom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-12-06 09:37 AM
Response to Reply #30
34. What does than have to do with Zarqawi's death?
Or what I wrote?
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BillZBubb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-11-06 08:32 PM
Response to Original message
13. Wow 1000+ posts and catapulting the propaganda!
Hmmmm....

Zarqawi's death won't make a bit of difference, anymore than Saddam's capture, or the establishment of the CPA, or the Iraqi elections, or any other Bushbot nonsense.
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Libby2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-11-06 09:04 PM
Response to Original message
18. I personally don't think it will
make one damned bit of difference.
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Philosoraptor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-11-06 09:08 PM
Response to Original message
20. Best laugh of the day. I appreciate sarcasm, I really do.
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sendero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-11-06 09:10 PM
Response to Original message
21. I'll bet you anything you've got..
... that the "insurgency" is not affected one whit by the passing of this dude, who by all accounts was in control of only a tiny tiny fraction of the "insurgents".

I'm amused by folks who think that our military, much less one man, is going to to have much effect on what happens in Iraq in the coming years. There will be a civil war, it is already brewing, and we can't stop it, he would not be able to stop it, nobody is going to stop it - it was set into motion the day we invaded Iraq.

Wait and see.
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Snivi Yllom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-11-06 09:14 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. quite a bit of the civil war in Iraq was intensified by Zarqawi himself
Mosque bombings in an attempt to pit Sunnis against Shias

http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0226-26.htm

Published on Sunday, February 26, 2006 by the WorkingForChange
Askari Mosque Bombing is Bigger Than You Think
by Geov Parrish

It's almost impossible to overstate the importance of Wednesday Morning's destruction of the Askari mosque, a key Shi'a shrine, in Samarra, Iraq. The response, of course, has been swift, violent, and overwhelming. As of late Thursday Iraq time, the Australian Broadcast Corp. placed the national death toll from reprisals at 130, with most of the victims being Sunni. The hardline Sunni Clerical Association of Muslim Scholars claimed that 168 Sunni mosques have been attacked, and some burned to the ground, with 10 imams murdered and another 15 kidnapped since the bombing. Despite widespread appeals for calm, the violence continues, fueled by Shiite militias which seem to have been poised for just such a reason for attacking Sunni targets.

There was immediate political fallout, too. In response to the reprisals, on Thursday the Iraqi Accordance Front, the Sunni electoral group that had won 44 parliamentary seats in the Dec. 15 election, angrily pulled out of talks aimed at forming a government of national unity. On the same day, a group of leading Sunni clerics issued a remarkably blunt criticism of their Shiite counterparts, charging that calls for protest in the wake of the bombing had fueled the violence.

In other words, it's a mess. And despite the American media's fixation on an Arab company buying U.S. ports, this is a far, far more important story.

While radical Shiite cleric Moktada al-Sadr (whose militia has mustered in protest) and Iran's hardline cleric leaders blamed the U.S. and Israel for the attacks, most of the speculation as to responsibility is focusing on Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the Sunni terrorist leader whose group's attacks on Shiite targets and loose affiliation with al-Qaeda have long made him the leading focus of American "War on Terror" attention. Even before Wednesday's attack, al-Zarqawi's skillful use of the invasion of Iraq as a terrorist recruiting tool, his direct assaults on American and British targets, and his sophisticated use of Iraq as a testing ground for terror techniques have allowed him to easily surpass Osama bin Laden in terms of street credibility in the Muslim world.

If al-Zarqawi is, in fact, the culprit -- and it's certainly his style -- it remains to be seen how his attack on the shrine, one of Shi'a's holiest sites, will affect that standing. But in the short term, fomenting all-out civil war serves Zarqawi's purposes well. Even if it does not lead to the disintegration of Iraq's fledgling, Shiite-led government, it will (and already has) provoked bloody reprisals that can easily be linked to and used to discredit a government that already stands accused of anti-Sunni torture and death squads. While the majority of Iraqis almost certainly want to avoid all-out civil war, with so much weaponry in the country and such a long history of injustices perpetrated by all sides, this may have been the match that lit the tinderbox.

What can the United States do? Almost nothing. So far, it has invested almost all of its efforts in promoting the legitimacy of the elected, Shiite-led government, even though that government will be closely aligned with Iran, has already perpetrated well-documented abuses, and has essentially imposed repressive Sharia law in the parts of the country (such as the South) where it has firmest control. Washington worked hard to get Sunni parties like the Iraqi Accordance Front to invest in the legitimacy of this political process; it only took 24 hours of ethnic reprisals to destroy those efforts. Sunnis were already leading the anti-American insurgency, and because of our strong political pressure to include them in the government anyway, many Shiites now believe Washington is siding with the Sunnis. (Hence, the wilder accusations that Washington was behind the original bombing.) The Kurds, also, are seeing their dreams of autonomy under the new constitution threatened. As the inevitable waves of violence and counter-violence wear on, America is left with virtually no friends on any side, and virtually no credibility (other than its sheer military manpower, which it has been reluctant to deploy en masse) as a mediator that can stop the bloodshed.

One of the likeliest outcomes of this attack is an escalation, perhaps a dramatic one, in Iraq's civil war. Another outcome is the likely involvement, finally of the U.N. in Iraqi peacemaking efforts, as the agency is brought in to do the job that Washington plainly cannot effectively do. But don't look for the withdrawal of American troops from Iraq any time soon. President Bush will keep them there due to the civil war and may perhaps even expand their presence, ostensibly to curb the violence -- even though we likely will provoke far more violence than we prevent.

But the biggest fallout is likely to be political. Unless Washington and other foreign powers decree otherwise, Iraq -- if it stays together as a nation-state, an outcome the U.S. and the rest of the West is strongly vested in -- is almost certainly going to be led in the future by its 60% Shiite majority. The question is which Shiites will lead. If the present government fails to form and/or disintegrates, the void is likely to be filled by more radical leaders, particularly clerics like al-Sadr. Al-Sadr has gone in less than three years from being a little-known rebel cleric that occupying U.S. forces identified as a wanted criminal, to being a central power broker among Shiites. Out of this chaos, he, or someone ideologically similar, could well be the one who seizes power -- If so, Iraq's transition from a savage secular dictatorship (under Saddam) to a savage cleric-led dictatorship, a transition made possible by George Bush, will be complete.

In the interim, there is an immediate and stark risk of even more of an escalation in Iraq's bloodshed, and, as has already been the case, the primary victims will be civilians. More measured leaders on all sides, not to mention all of the international community, would like to avoid this outcome. But it may not be possible. The die has already been cast. In many ways, it was cast at the time of America's invasion, and something like the bombing of the Askari mosque was inevitable at some point.

Nonetheless, the bombing is a critical turning point. This has been an attack which has turned not only a mosque, but George Bush's entire Iraq policy, to rubble.



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Roland99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-12-06 08:53 AM
Response to Reply #22
28. Lot of "speculation" and "if" in that article.
Don't you recall Gen. Kimmitt's words about using Zarqawi as propaganda in the most successful information program they've had?
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-11-06 09:34 PM
Response to Original message
25. If thinking this helps you sleep, then God bless you
Now that Zarqawi is dead - again - many would have us believe this is a stirring victory. To be sure, the Shi'ite civilians massacred by Zarqawi can take comfort that his attacks have been brought to an end. But to see this as an end to the violence is to buy into a distinctly American view of the Iraq occupation, a view that would have us believe that it is one villain masterminding all the carnage.

This simply isn't true.

A report from the UK Telegraph last year quoted a number of anonymous intelligence sources who stated, flatly, that Zarqawi was not the all-encompassing boogeyman he was portrayed to be. "We were basically paying up to $10,000 a time to opportunists, criminals and chancers who passed off fiction and supposition about Zarqawi as cast-iron fact, making him out as the linchpin of just about every attack in Iraq," said one source in the report. "Back home this stuff was gratefully received and formed the basis of policy decisions. We needed a villain, someone identifiable for the public to latch on to, and we got one."

Said another source in the report, "From the information we have gathered, we have to conclude that Zarqawi is more myth than man. He isn't in the caliber of what many politicians want to believe he is."

More recently, on April 10, 2006, the Washington Post ran a detailed article titled "Military Plays Up Role of Zarqawi." The opening paragraph reads, "The U.S. military is conducting a propaganda campaign to magnify the role of the leader of al-Qaeda in Iraq, according to internal military documents and officers familiar with the program. The effort has raised his profile in a way that some military intelligence officials believe may have overstated his importance and helped the Bush administration tie the war to the organization responsible for the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks."

"One internal briefing, produced by the U.S. military headquarters in Iraq," continued the Post piece, "said that (Brig. Gen. Mark) Kimmitt had concluded that, 'The Zarqawi PSYOP program is the most successful information campaign to date.'"

Hm.

Our leaders would love us to believe that what is happening in Iraq is black-and-white, an issue of evil-doers attempting to shatter the hopes of democracy. Unfortunately, too many Americans buy into this Etch-a-Sketch view of our policies and practices there. The reality behind the bloodshed is far more discouraging, and hued with many shades of gray.

Those who fight and kill in Iraq did not do so because Zarqawi ordered them to. They fight because they are Sunnis with a generational hatred for Shi'ites, or because they are Shi'ites with a generational hatred for Sunnis, or because they are Kurds defending their turf, or because they don't want Iran running their country, or because they are defending their neighborhood, or because they are settling old grudges, or because they are opportunistic criminals looking to make a buck. In many instances, those who fight and kill in Iraq do so because they absolutely will not tolerate an occupying force under any circumstances.

The death of Zarqawi will not change any of this. The violence will continue, because the violence has nothing to do with him. He was a symptom, not a cause. Think of Iraq as a cancer patient. By killing Zarqawi, we have indeed cut out one tumor. But the cancer cells have metastasized, and have spread, and there will be a dozen more tumors to replace the one that has been removed. At the end of the day, the occupation itself is the cancer, and until it is removed, the tumors will continue to fester and grow.
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Snivi Yllom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-12-06 09:27 AM
Response to Reply #25
32. Zarqawi was gasoline thrown on simmering coals
You are kidding yourself if you think Zarqawi did not kick up the ethnic infighting within Iraq up more than a notch. He was a direct cause of inflammation, a provocateur, intentionally throwing gasoline on tribal tensions that have existed for thousands of years. Zarqawi was far more than a symptom, he was an instigator, and he was fiendishly good at stirring the pot. Bombing the Golden Mosque was not a symptom. Zarqawi created fresh excuses for Sunnis and Shias to bring out the guns, knives and bombs, and use them against each other.

Clearly you did not read what I said, or more likely you choose to ignore the truth of my writing. Firstly, Zarqawi had already begun the process of exporting freshly trained scumbags out of Iraq where they could spread Zarqawi's sick twisted vision of Islam not with speech and prayer, but with violence. Namely his home country of Jordan, but there is evidence he has trained fighters who have left Iraq, perhaps for the West. He was no mere 'psyops' creation. There is too much death and destruction attributable to Zarqawi to chalk him up as a symbol. Rather than exaggerate Zarqawi's capabilities, he was initially ignored in importance by Rumsfeld, the grand prize being the removal of Saddam Hussein. Zarqawi became a much much bigger problem for American forces and Iraq.

Using your analogy, Zarqawi was not just a tumor, he was one type of cancer, aggressively spreading throughout Iraq. Yes, Zarqawi spread an exceptional amount of hate and bloodshed. American lack of planning allowed Zarqawi's power and influence to grow unfettered out of control to the point where Zarqawi became a threat to Iraq's very stability as a nation. It's still touch and go whether Iraq can pull it off as a nation, but I am hopeful they have turned the corner, just in time. Zarqawi's death may be symbolic to Iraq, especially the Shias, but perhaps even to the Sunnis who don't want to live in perpetual violence.

Oh, and it doesn't matter how I sleep at night, but many Iraqis now suffer from one less nightmare. There may be another to take Zarqawi's place, but I think in many ways Zarqawi was far more effective than Osama Bin laden ever was in creating chaos and spreading radical Islam. I am hopeful his replacement will be less effective, and that the followers are fewer.

Another good article on Zarqawi and his ability to create chaos within Iraq
http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:MyTg8yNnNR8J:iht.com/articles/2006/06/09/opinion/edben.php+golden+mosque+zarqawi&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=4

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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-13-06 05:43 AM
Response to Reply #25
38. Well said. n/t
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-12-06 08:53 AM
Response to Original message
29. Zarqawi's death will mean little in the long run
And may mean little in the short run also. His death will make him a martyr, and thus will probably increase the violence. Given, as previously stated in other threads and media articles posted on DU, that Zarqawi was on the outs of the AlQaeda leadership, then his death won't effect the long term strategy of Al Qaeda in Iraq.

All that Zarqawi's death really does is give this misadministration a chance to say that they're actually doing something, even though it is nothing substansive. Bushco does get a photoshop, and those in the anti-war camp can put forth the notion that perhaps now is the time to leave Iraq and have it considered seriously.

Other than that, the death of Zarqawi means very, very little in the scope of things.
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ima_sinnic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-12-06 09:36 AM
Response to Original message
33. I have saved your post in my "predictions awaiting the test of time"
folder

My feeling is that you have greatly exaggerated the importance of one man whom al Qaeda itself wanted rid of, their "loose cannon" for whom it was reported only the day before his death they wanted a "martyr's death" (once again, as in withdrawal from Saudi Arabia right after 9/11, when al Qaeda demanded it, BushCo couldn't act fast enough to comply). And anyone who thinks the "insurgency" is some well-orchestrated campaign with a "leader" is clueless -- if the U.S. were invaded by a foreign country our resistance would certainly NOT revolve around any one individual.
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-13-06 05:16 AM
Response to Original message
37. Zarqawi's extermination will help end the war and Big Brother Loves You.
Edited on Tue Jun-13-06 05:50 AM by Swamp Rat
Wahrheit macht frei.



Edited to add "Abu Musab al-Zarqawi" in the pic. :)
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-13-06 05:50 AM
Response to Original message
39. Zaqarwi's replacement was installed within 24 hrs of his death
Sooner if you believe reports that Zaqarwi had been kicked to the curb by Al Qaeda. His death has made him a martyr, thus rallying even more followers. Attacks by insurgents have not decreased, in fact contrariwise, they've increased.

In this sort of war, killing a leader is virtually meaningless. Another one rises to take his place, and the killing continues. The only advantage that Zaqarwi's death gives the US is a propaganda one, for a short while.

But the situation hasn't fundamently changed, and this illegal, immoral war will continue to grind on.
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Philosoraptor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-13-06 05:51 AM
Response to Reply #39
40. All this proves that the war is lost, Zarq was meaningless.
Edited on Tue Jun-13-06 05:52 AM by Philosoraptor
I think the original poster is having a bit of fun with us.
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-13-06 05:58 AM
Response to Reply #39
41. The "war" is asymmetrical, as you described
The leader of the terrorists is an idea, not a person.

The question is: how long can Bushler&Co keep up the propaganda? The People are catching on...

What is Bushler's next step?

I fear it will be drastic and draco-nian. :hide:


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CJCRANE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-13-06 06:14 AM
Response to Original message
42. I dunno
just look at Hamas in the occupied territories (Israel/Palestine). Everytime the IDF takes out the Hamas military leader another one pops up. I guess lack of job security doesn't phase these guys.
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-13-06 06:31 AM
Response to Original message
43. That's a nice bunch of speculation, but it probably won't happen.
Zarqawi was simply the most public, not the most important face of the insurgency. For one thing, other insurgent groups wanted him dead, which tells you something.
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