Why must everything be a conspiracy?

[Bluzmann57]

Now I am not knocking all the people out there who think that each and every thing that happens is a conspiracy. In fact, the more I look at voter fraud in 2000 and 2004, the more likely it seems that it really happened. And I also believe that while bush and co. did not commit 9/11, they certainly had the information to try and prevent it. But it does seem that a few (not all) people in here think that everything must be a conspiracy, without any concrete evidence. The arrest of terrorists in Canada last week, the death of AlZarqawi, the beheading of Berg last year, deaths of various progressives, New Orleans wall explosions, and on and on.
Lets face it people, the majority of conspiracy theories are based on less than verifiable evidence and should not be taken all that seriously. An example. The terrorist plot uncovered in Canada last week. Some say (sounds like faux news) that it was all a ploy to make the new conservative government up there look good in the U.S administration's eyes. I say bull****. The RCMP investigated this plot for quite a while and moved when they thought it was necessary; that is when they had solid evidence. That is the way most police investigations go. Another one; JFK Jr. was killed by someone in power. Or maybe he was not a real good pilot. I don't know, neither do you.
Just remember how implausible some of the stuff against Clinton seemed in the '90's and stop and think before you accuse anyone of some sort of conspiracy stuff. As already stated, I do think that there is something to Election fraud in the last two Presidential elections, in fact 2000 seems irrefutable, but some of the other stuff is just speculation and circumstantial stuff, or entirely made up from a fertile imagination. Proof, we need absolute irrefutable proof. If we have it, then it will be easy to bring the bush gang down.

[shance]

1. Hi. Come pull up a chair and join reality. It is a conspiracy.

n/t

[shance]

8. I think the better question is why must everything that happens be denied

?

The level that people will go to, to turn their heads to the reality which stares them in the face is what will be the end of our country.

Just like Germany, history repeats.

[smtpgirl]

15. It is a conspiracy theory

because fucknuts will NOT tell the truth.

When there isn't cooperation to what happened in a situation, then one must result in the conspiracy theroy

[driver8]

34. That is exactly what I was thinking.

People don't want to hear the truth and cannot believe that our "government" would ever do such things.

"Our government would never allow 9-11 to happen -- that is just ridiculous."

"Our government would never lie to get us into a war -- that is preposterous."

"No one would ever cheat in an election in our country...that is insane to even think that."

The more people that deny what our government is capable of, the worst things are going to get. Call them conspiracy theories if you want, but until I get the truth from our government, I am not putting anything past them. These people are criminals who are only out for themselves and they will do anything to achieve what they want. It is time for people to wake the fuck up and realize just what these people are capable of.

[Tulum_Moon]

44. I know this is is a late response to your post

But, how do we know what is denied? I am not trying to challenge you or start a fight. It just boggles the mind.
We are left to sift through information we get, only to doubt it. Then, because of this administration, we are left to try and make sense of it. Which ultimately leads us to disprove it. But I think that has become human nature considering this current regime.
Don't know if this made sense to you, but then again what does these days.
:shrug:

[idgiehkt]

53. the alternative? "Coincidence Theory."

just doesn't wash, lol. My question is why does everything have to be called a conspiracy theory unless it is blindly accepted by the masses with no questions. This label casts aspersions on people who question anything...oh, I guess that's the point.

[Redstone]

2. Because, well, there wouldn't be so many opportunities for

discussion & argument & suspicion & theories & "I discovered the Big Secret before you did" if there wasn't a Conspiracy, would there?

It helps people who don't have any other hobbies, basically. Been to the 9/11 group lately?

Redstone

[cobalt1999]

81. you nailed it!

The conspiracy fans I've meet and talked to mostly:

1) take pride that they are "smart" enough to know something few do and,
2) are awaiting the day their conspiracy is brought to light (aliens, bermuda triangle, govt mind chips, 9/11, fake moon landings, etc) and they can finally gloat. "SEE, I WAS RIGHT!"

Conspiracy fans don't shave with Occam's Razor.

[CJCRANE]

87. "aliens, bermuda triangle, govt mind chips...fake moon landings"

Those conspiracies are so 90's!

Those were the days when conspiracies were just the stuff of obscure magazines and reject science-ficiton geeks.

These days conspiracies are deadly serious - no WMD, the DSM, Plamegate, NSAgate, mass extraordinary renditions, Abu Ghraib etc etc.

They're not conspiracy theories any more, most are conspiracy FACTS.

Last week I posted that I had a hunch the London terror raids were politically motivated and guess what...this week we find out that the intelligence came from MI5 not a police informer. Top police officers were concerned that it was bogus but they were over-ruled by the Cabinet Office.

[wtmusic]

90. Sometimes the simplest answer is a conspiracy

Not very often. But sometimes (Watergate, frinstance).

[Kutjara]

3. Everyting isn't a conspiracy...

...but they want you to think it is. It's part of their masterplan, you see.

[BoneDaddy]

4. I see your point

but so much in this administration is TRUE, no need for conspiracy. As to the events you listed, that is also true, as people seem to want to think the worst, or best, depending upon how it may sway the enemey or the ally. Denial is an incredible thing.

[Caution]

5. It's because most people don't really understand critical thinking.

They don't take the time to weigh the evidence presented and they have a cultural bias towards distrust of authorty in whatever form it may take. Couple this with a feeling of powerlessness and people are ready to believe the most outlandish things.

[chill_wind]

49. "Cultural bias"??

What sort of "cultural" group do you have in mind? Care to further describe or stipulate?

[Caution]

60. Sure. Americans in general.

Throughout our history we have been taught that we should rebel against authority. It is a part of our national identity. It's mostly positive IMHO, but without the ability to think critically it leads to a natural susceptibility towards some dangerous things such as the current "alternative medicine" craze.

[idgiehkt]

54. thanks, well said.

to the question about the 'cultural bias' down south it is against distrusting the authority of whomever's side that 'God' is supposed to be on. That is the whole point of religion, I think to install an internal control panel on people so there are just certain things they will not be able to hear, because the bible, mom, dad, or the preacher, or all of the above, told them that it is not so in the period (age) before logic and critical thinking have developed yet. It's ingenious really.

[rman]

55. "bias towards distrust of authority" -

what are you saying, that it's better to trust authority?

[Caution]

59. I neither stated nor implied anything of the sort

Americans have a cultural bias towawrds distrust of authority. It's part of what makes us Americans. In general I think that it is a very good thing, but it also makes many who have not learned the skill that is critical thinking (which I firmly believe should be taught as a mandatory class in High School) more prone to accept any wild theory that "questions" the "official" explanation. It never ceases to amaze me that there could be 99 pieces of hard evidence to support something but we as Americans will cling to the 1 perceived inconsistency as teh item which disproves. We do it in the news as well. I couldn't tell you how many of my friends are considering home schooling or private school because of violence in public schools. millions of kids attend public schools safely every day but three or four insane children kill another 20 or so kids and suddenly "schools are no longer safe."

The rght has been using this mentality to harm the left for decades. They have undermined our faith in public education (making Columbine to be the rule and not the exception), medicine (distrust of doctors, hospitals, pharmaceuticals, the incredible rise of quackery in this country is truly disturbing), science ("Intelligent Design" and the global warming "skeptics"), the destruction of power within the judiciary (activist judges), the insanity of the drug war and the war on women (the pro-life movemnt, the so-called "partial-birth abortion" ban, the so-called "conscience" laws which allow pharmacists to refuse to dispense brith control. This all stems from the inability of the average American to think critically and to weigh the preponderance of evidence against the one or two small exceptions which the right clings to.

[rucky]

58. So what is your criteria...

that a critical thinker would use to weigh "information" coming from the Pentagon?

Considering the source, where's the line that makes one story "outlandish" and another one plausible, from here in our living rooms? Especially when they have quite the reputation for outlandishness themselves.

Wouldn't it be critical thinking to say that ALL people weigh biased evidence? Biased, in the sense that what they process is based upon their own belief system, environment, and personal experience?

[Caution]

61. The whole point to examining something using the scientific method

is to remove this bias. I'm not going to bother to attempt to get into an argument regarding the various hypotheses regarding what happened at the Pentagon here, it wasn't my intent to discuss the merits of any one hypothesis, but rather to provide an answer to the OP. There is no need to have his thread hijacked.

[Henny Penny]

103. You are right...

most people are unable or unwilling to think critically.

However you neglect to mention that while some of these people have an inbuilt bias that causes them to distrust authority no matter what, most are in the opposite camp. IE they refuse to believe anything that is not officially sanctioned by authority.

It is ironic that in our society, the more you are capable of critical thought, the more likely it is that you will be labeled a conspiracy theorist.

[NJ Democrats]

6. Because people don't want to

believe otherwise.

[Semblance]

7. I agree

Nothing is more annoying than asinine conspiracy theories sucking up the oxygen of otherwise excellent discussions.

Frankly, I think it's a sign that our education system does not teach proper critical thinking skills.

[EVDebs]

9. Knights of Malta and the CIA seems to start things off...

Their will be done
www.motherjones.com/news/feature/1983/07/willbedone.html

And the fact that the DoD won't allow for internet voting

http://www.computerworld.com/printthis/2004/0,4814,89902,00.html

but modemed computerized voting is allowed in the domestic elections seem to be the 'smoking gun' IMHO.

Bush's relatives DID indeed conspire to do a coup d'etat against FDR in the '30s (see USMC Gen. Smedley D. Butler's history and the book by Jules Archer, The Plot To Seize The White House if you can get the MSM to cover these stories, oh, I forgot, they won't), and Operation Mockingbird is still ongoing

Operation Mockingbird (scroll down)
www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKmockingbird.htm

The CIA and The Media by Carl Bernstein
http://danwismar.com/uploads/Bernstein%20-%20CIA%20and%20Media.htm

[dailykoff]

10. Because everything's a lie.

Take those three suicides in Guantanamo, now begin spun as "acts of war" against the US.

This administration makes its own reality, remember?

[originalpckelly]

11. These aren't conspiracy theories...

the are "proof challenged" theories.

[DireStrike]

12. Because to everybody, SOMETHING is a conspiracy.

And when 10 different people come forward with their ideas on 10 different possible conspiracies, some people feel overwhelmed.

It's just the community id doing its job. Let it work. It has a purpose.

Good to remind people to post proof when they have it, though, and to carefully consider things that there is no proof of.

[Downtown Hound]

13. When you have a government that lies perpetually and repeatedly

then you have to take everything they tell you with a grain of salt. You have to question the official explanation of Zarqawi because it's political, and politicians lie, especially these ones.

However, you should also question the conspiracy theories as well. Just because the government lies doesn't mean that any old conspiracy story is the truth. The bottom line? QUESTION EVERYTHING. Take nothing for granted.

[Philosoraptor]

17. Exactly, these guys conspire all day and night, a lie about it too.

[Philosoraptor]

14. Look at all the people who conspired on this thread, it's a conspiracy.

A conspiracy is when people conspire to do something. Like when people conspired to kill JFK. Or when the neocons conspired to go to war. Or when colonel Sanders conspired to go into business.

To conspire is a conspiracy. Not all conspiracies are secretive and clandestine, some are above ground and legal.

The word itself has been hijacked to mean a wacko theorist looking for something that isnt' there.

With republicans in office, it's natural to be suspicious.

[nolabels]

65. On the street it's called things like "gangbang"

It's really not all that complicated, but the bangers would like you to think otherwise

From what i can tell of the word origin in latin the same thing meaning as 'breathe together'

Check this lexicographical link
http://www.primapublishing.com/wotd/index.pperl?date=20010111

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[shance]

23. Are you saying they are justified in taking everyone elses 'stuff'?

And taking peoples lives and loved ones, and people's livlihoods as well?

That is what they seem to be engaged in, isn't it?

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

18. Why do people who have a common mental defect/agenda join

together in order to achieve nefarious goals?? Because it's easier when you have help to achieve your distorted designs.

It may be said that some have conspired to whittle away your civil rights, your privacy, the constitution and their own credibility.

conspire

v 1: engage in plotting or enter into a conspiracy, swear together; "They conspired to overthrow the government" 2: act in unison or agreement and in secret towards a deceitful or illegal purpose; "The two companies conspired to cause the value of the stock to fall"

[The Straight Story]

19. You are just one of 'Them' aren't you....

I will research all your posts, see what MSM says about you (if it is flattering, it is a lie and I won't trust them, but if it fits what I like - then I will quote it like gospel), and then look for photos of you with the same plastic chairs they sell at wal-mart.

And it will only get worse of course. Because I know more than the avg joe, or media, or scientist (although, scientists are like preachers - they all interpret things the way they want them to be) and anyone else. And then - I will write a book about it and cash in.

Yeah. It was sarcasm. Or was it....BWAHAHHAHAHAHA (now off to the bank to cash my bush check for being a good boy and not telling anyone anything.)

[Bluzmann57]

21. I may be one of them

But if I tell you then...ah never mind. And if the MSM ever says anything about me it may say "Wanted by the police for traitorous acts against the bushies". But don't hold your breath. Was that sarcasm? I dunno. Maybe it's all a conspiracy.

[fooj]

20. Definition of CONSPIRACY...

***a secret agreement between two or more people to perform an unlawful act
***a plot to carry out some harmful or illegal act (especially a political plot)
***a group of conspirators banded together to achieve some harmful or illegal purpose


2000 SEEMS irrefutable? It is UNCONSTITUTIONAL for the SCOTUS to CHOOSE the US President. Period.

[shance]

22. Thanks Fooj. That's where we all need to begin.

With the correct definition.

[Bluzmann57]

24. I didn't mean the Supreme Court selection

I meant the purge of voters in Florida, which led to the selection of bush. Sorry about any confusion I may have caused with my statements. And thank you for the definition. But I still need to see proof on some of the more outlandish theories advanced in here.

[fooj]

25. What "led to the selection" of LLP was stopping the vote counting

...the SCOTUS "selected" him. As far as "conspiracies" go...what further proof do you need? How many times have plotted against this country? Isn't it obvious by now that they have carefully executed their coup?

You see, the problem with PATHOLOGICAL liars is that it is hard to believe a word they say. How many times have you heard the "official" version of an event and later found out that it was completely different? Check out the definition again. I think the operative question here is HOW MANY TIMES have they pulled this crap on us? As far as "OUTLANDISH" goes...I'm afraid they're the winners on that score, as well.

[Cetacea]

56. You can't prove a successful conspiracy. eom

[raccoon]

76. "Treason doth never prosper; what's the reason? If it prosper,

none dare call it treason."

Same with conspiracy. You said it right.

[Mythsaje]

27. Ah, see, the trick is

don't believe ANYTHING. Nothing the government says, nothing that cannot be proven here. I accept many things as possible, but I am not willing to go out on a limb saying something exists to which I cannot personally attest.

Kinda like God.

[Awsi Dooger]

28. Because it's the internet

By definition, the internet rejects the simple explanation. Better to invent at least 500 peripheral factors, each with odds of at least 20/1 against, and claim they all marvelously blended together to form the undeniable truth.

[driver8]

29. Everything doesn't have to be a conspiracy. If we got the truth from

"our government" once in awhile, people wouldn't have to try and explain things.

But, instead we have a president and vice president who refuse to answer any questions regarding 9/11 under oath.

We have a president who feels that he is above the law and doesn't have to expain himself to anyone.

We have a congress who lets the president do whatever the fuck he wants, when he wants.

We have rampant proof of election fraud that is allowed to happen.

We have countless examples of war profiteering and money that just vanishes.

We have proof that our president lied us into a war, and is preparing to lie us into another one.

We have a Supreme Court who decided to make Bush our president -- no questions asked.

We have the Bush family who has close ties to several prominent Arab families.

Should I go on??

When we start getting the truth, we'll stop making our own truth. The people of this country demand and deserve answers that we are not getting. As long as this continues, the conspiracy theories will continue.

Blame your president.

[dweller]

42. pretty much sums it up

you should start a thread on the premise: "When we start getting the truth, we'll stop making our own truth. The people of this country demand and deserve answers that we are not getting. As long as this continues, the conspiracy theories will continue."

:thumbsup:

dp

[driver8]

89. Hey -- I might just do that!

That would make a good topic for a thread.

Thanks for the thumbs up!

[blues90]

30. This wouldn't be the case if

There were not some many in the know willing to lie and cover things up . It seems even a lot of the things that have happened in the last 5 1/2 years alone have been lied about in some fashion . Even things you see happen suddenly appear as a spin even though common sense tells you something entirely different . They want you to doubt you own eyes and all common sense .

Beside this bush has been caught on tape and footage so many times lying . With this , people have to try to get to the truth because it's not little while harmless lies we are dealing with here .

Even when it comes to 9/11 it would a hell of a lot easier to accept the government story but there are too may things that just simply don't add up . I don't think many people who spend their time putting the pieces together do it out of a popularity rise .

The horrid things always seem to happen to the people in the public eye that try to do the most good and that in itself does tend to raise doubt and for good reason . This happened one after the other with JFK jr and Princess Diane .

Bush has a very large amount of people who would like to see him meet his end , he has the most security of all time for that very reason . Now if something were to happen to bush it would be considered a miracle .

[leftofthedial]

31. virtually EVERY event of note that has transpired in human history

is the result of a conspiracy. It's a question of WHICH conspiracy the evidence--not the propaganda--the evidence--points to.

[endarkenment]

78. Indeed.

I am amazed at people here on this board who remain in denial about the events that have transpired since the 1998 PNAC letter to Clinton demanding (as it turns out) that his administration back an invasion and occupation of Iraq.

There is a conspiracy. We even have names for the conspirators, PNAC, 'the cabal', IWG. We certainly can't categorically prove every detail of the conspiracy - nor do we make that claim. What we know is that the conspiracy exists, it is very real, and it is in control of the executive branch of the federal government.

[earth mom]

32. I don't get the point of your post.

Sounds like you want validation of your "skepticism" regarding the skepticism others have about everything the liars and thugs who control this country say or do.

:wtf:


Well, you either buy into what the evil, greedy and lying BFEE and Corporate Media Whores dish out or you don't.

I for one, DO NOT.

[Junkdrawer]

33. *yawn*

Here's a couple of locked threads with the same theme:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1397707&mesg_id=1397707

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1396030&mesg_id=1396030

[hootinholler]

35. It's not Voter Fraud.

The voters did not act fraudulently. The term should be Election Fraud, or Election Tampering.

Paper Ballots + Hand counts = open and fair elections

Ask any German.

-Hoot

[Junkdrawer]

36. Good point - they give themselves away, don't they? n/t

[hootinholler]

41. That's a common mistake...

But, talking points do have a way of f^Hcreeping in around here.

-Hoot

[NoPasaran]

37. I could explain it

But then you'd have to be killed! :crazy:

[survivor999]

38. There is nothing wrong with speculation.

As long as people are aware it is just speculation. Believing in speculations, often because of certain psychological needs to be sure about something (look at Chimpy and the fundies), is when things become dangerous because contact with reality and facts is lost.

[G2099]

39. There are 2 kinds of people in this world / life . . .

Those who believe in the Conspiracy Theory of History and Life and those who don't.

Those who KNOW and those who DON't know.

[RagAss]

40. My sig line says it all for me.....

[JeffR]

43. The nightmare of the Bush years has rendered conspiracy irrelevant

What's in our faces day in and day out is bad enough. When the truth about the behind-the-scenes conspiracies ( which I have no doubt are real and widespread) comes to light, I'll be horrified all over again. Until then, what's already a matter of public record is quite vile enough to make me believe Hell exists, and it's right here on earth.

[progressoid]

45. All I know is that 9/11 wouldn't have happenened if Clinton hadn't ordered

the FBI to take care of Ron Brown and Vince Foster. Know what I mean??

[Crazy Guggenheim]

46. I'm reminded of the joke: A congressman died. People started to wonder

"What is his motive?"

:popcorn:

[alittlelark]

47. ....sigh...

[treestar]

48. What is wrong with questioning things?

Answer: absolutely nothing. Some people are emotionally threatened by situations with no black and white answers, so they keep telling us we "look bad" for questioning things.

There are many things that are fishy about 911, are we supposed to ignore them? Just questioning them is not crazy. Otherwise you are stuck with believing everything the government tells you.

It's not either/or, black/white, either believe everything the MSM tells you or be a tinfoil hat crazy.

In the old days, everyone could believe Walter Cronkite, those days are gone, some can't handle that, apparently. We live in an era where we've learned the Belgian babies story was untrue, and meant to draw us into a war, know the Spanish American war was started because people believed everything they read in the newspapers, know about the Northwoods plan, know that the Gulf of Tonkin incident was not what it was cracked up to be, and that the forces of Saddam never did kill any babies in incubators in Kuwait.

We know we have been emotionally manipulated before and are leery of it happening again.

This Al Zarq. story is fishy too. We don't have to ignore that because of what cannot be "proven." The MSM can't prove anything it says, either. Hell, they can't prove they did anything, with photos, we now know they can fool us with photos.

Just blindly believing it all is naive and pathetic. Because you can't emotionally handle it, everybody is supposed to let it all go? That way lies the totalitarian state the freepers want.

[file83]

50. I couldn't have said it better myself. GREAT post!!

:thumbsup:

[troubleinwinter]

51. Must everything be SHIT & LIES? Seemingly so, for 5 years.

[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SidDithers]

74. Fertilzer was not delivered...

harmless powder was.

Sid

[Usrename]

57. Was Iran/Contra a theory? No, it was a conspiracy.

Eliot Abrams - John Negroponte - John Poindexter - Otto Reich

Weren't each of these guys already convicted on conspiracy related charges under a previous Administration in regards to Iran/Contra? Weren't they all hired to work for this Administration?

Now you can go back to pretending that you don't know who any of these monsters are.

[notadmblnd]

62. definition of Conspiracy

perhaps you have a better understanding of the word if we actually define it?

# a secret agreement between two or more people to perform an unlawful act
# a plot to carry out some harmful or illegal act (especially a political plot)
# a group of conspirators banded together to achieve some harmful or illegal purpose
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

# Conspiracy, in common usage, is the act of working in secret to obtain some goal, usually understood with negative connotations. Etymologically, the term comes from Latin con- "with, together", and spirare "to breathe".
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy

[ScreamingMeemie]

63. I think anyone who has been exposed to American Politics, as they

stand right now, is right to have a little bit of tinfoil hat theorizing going on... How many times in this great nation have we been ASTOUNDED to find something out...? Or, to have our worst political fears become reality? Herein lies the reasoning.

[Philosoraptor]

64. With this bunch, everything IS a rotten conspiracy.

How could anyone doubt it?

[Donald Ian Rankin]

66. Because people want to feel superior

The basic drive behind conspiracy theory is the desire to feel that one knows something that other people don't, because they are ignorant and you're not.

Conspiracy theories pan out to be true - usually coincidentally - just often enough to keep the fire fuelled, but they should never be given the benefit of the doubt.

[earth mom]

83. There are NO Coincidences. nt

[Tin Man]

67. Rampant CT chatter is the achilles heel of DU

Others have said it before, and I agree - DU has become 'CT central' and it's harming the credibility and reputation of an otherwise fine site.

[rman]

69. It's naive to think there's no point in discussing conspiracies.

Compared to other message boards DU is nowhere near 'conspiracy central'.

Some may not realize that the very reason for the existence of DU is Election Fraud 2000 - a crime that obviously did involve conspiracy.

[Philosoraptor]

71. I've seen folks here suggest the last two elections were perfectly legal.

To this day people disagree as to the validity of that notion.

[endarkenment]

80. Oh you can't categorically prove that so shut up.

And RFKjr should shut up too 'cause he can't categorically prove that the 2004 election was swiped in Ohio. And even if it was - how is that a conspiracy?

And the *IHOPers should shut up 'cause it was all just a remarkable coincidence that the PNACers stole an election just before the catalyst they needed for their Iraqi war happened.

And everyone asking questions about Zarqawi's life and death should shut up - just because the official story changes daily is no reason to ask questions or engage in harmful speculation.

[Philosoraptor]

70. Whose fault is that? Bush's.

[Finder]

77. Investigation vs speculation

There is more of the latter than the former these days. I think that is done on purpose though. Blaming things on a perceived enemy whether it be the government, underground reptilians, aliens, demons, secret societies seems more glamorous than reality.

Any good investigative journalist will tell you, reality is often stranger than fiction.

[Tin Man]

84. Precisely. A plethora of speculation, a dearth of supporting documentation

...it's largely become the SOP around here, and it's giving legitimate CTs a bad rap.

Election 2000 and 2004 have been subtantiated as, at a minimum, extremely suspect. But the integrity of otherwise sound and supported CTs are degraded by a wider prediliction to declare every simple news item as part of some larger conspiracy - it makes it easier for the RW opposition and the Corporate Media whores to dismiss out-of-hand any/all talk of conspiracy.

In part, I believe this is why it's taken almost 2 years for stories calling into question Election 2004 to crack the media (e.g. RFK Jr's piece in Rolling Stone) - through our MO, we enabled the nay-sayers to simply blow off any serious discussion/attention to the story as 'the ramblings of whacky conspiracy theorists'.

[seabeyond]

68. because this admn has lies in every story. the last, the terrorist they

killed. he did not die from the bombs. appears he died being beat up.....

another lie. doesnt matter what comes out of this admn there is a lie. ergo, if people look for the lie in everything, who created it?

[Philosoraptor]

72. The last Pres. was impeached because he was a liar.

And they howled over and over, you can't trust a liar having lied only once.

[Celebration]

73. First, an event

Then, an official explanation.

Following that, facts come out that contradict that official explanation.

Then, a slightly altered official explanation.

Then, we wonder. As far as I am concerned we have been conditioned to do so.

How about Condi's statement that there was no specific warning about September 11?

She held to that until the memo subject became known-

Remember this, from May 2002?

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=August_6%2C_2001%2C_President's_Daily_Briefing_Memo

Bush had specifically asked for an intelligence analysis of possible al Qaeda attacks within the United States, because most of the information presented to him over the summer about al Qaeda focused on threats against U.S. targets overseas, sources said. But one source said the White House was disappointed because the analysis lacked focus and did not present fresh intelligence.

New accounts yesterday of the controversial Aug. 6 memo provided a shift in portrayals of the document, which has set off a political firestorm because it suggested that bin Laden's followers might be planning to hijack U.S. airliners.

I mean, it is ridiculous. We *have* to look behind official explanations, because truth as a concept is just unknown by this administration. They only use it as an afterthought, when it happens to further their goals. So it is possible that they are telling the truth about x event, or y event or z event, but don't count on it!!

[Finder]

75. Boston Tea Party, Teapot Dome, Gulf of Tonkin, Watergate, Iran/Contra...

are just a few examples of conspiracies that were uncovered. I think healthy skepticism is a good thing in most cases but unfortunately many conspiracy buffs have left themselves open to disinfo.

[Toots]

79. When authority no longer has any credibility anything is quite possible

When the LIES pile on top of the LIES people begin to wonder about the reasons.

[bemildred]

82. Why can't something be a conspiracy?

People do conspire, eh?
Pull your head out of the sand.
Look around.
Let the evidence speak.

[Bluzmann57]

85. I never said everything is black and white

I am saying that an awful lot of people in here seem to be suspicious about everything that happens and have no real facts to back them up. It is obvious that 2000 was ELECTION fraud, for the earlier poster who was worried about definitions, as was 2004. But there have been numerous other theories advanced abour numerous other things which are basically outlandish. Now it's my turn. The first time Michael Jordan "retired", it wasn't really a retirement. He was under investigation for gambling and was suspended. Where is my proof? In my head. Same deal with many situations here.

[CJCRANE]

92. Some people

with outlandish theories are just disruptors/disinfo. Others are genuine.

At the end of the day it's a judgement call. I'm not a journalist or a politician or a prosecutor or a researcher. I've been a member of DU since just after 9/11 and everyday I've absorbed information from all over the place - mainstream newspapers from all over the world (e.g. Wash Post, Wash Times, NYT, (London) Times, (London) Guardian etc etc), TV news bulletins, radio news bulletins (mainly BBC), books, court transcripts, govt documents released through FOIA, work colleagues, beer buddies, gossip, personal experience, anecdotes etc etc.

I work full-time so I don't have time to collate a professional argument with citations and links etc but all of the info I've absorbed goes into what I post on DU as a sort of instinct.

I think a lot of veteran DUers have that instinct - they can smell BS a mile off and they can predict how a news story will pan out. Not everytime but most of the time.

[rman]

93. In fact you did say "everything"...

"Why must everything be a conspiracy?"

Why don't you come to the 9-11 forum to debate the supposed "no real facts".
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=125

"No real facts" such such as the war games on 9-11, NORAD stand-down, lies about WMDs ("we know where they are" - Rumsfeld), lies about not being able to know such an attack was possible, lies about not being warned, Atta being under investigation in the US long before 9-11, etc, etc.

[Bluzmann57]

99. Ok ok I did ASK why must everything be a conspiracy

And I have some interesting replies and have apparently touched some nerves as well. Now I basically don't buy into a lot of conspiracy theories, but as I stated, I do believe that both of the last two Presidential elections were stolen. 2000 is obvious. And we all know about lies about WMD's, obviously thats not why the U.S. went to war with Iraq. As far as Atta, NORAD, and all other things surrounding 9-11, it is all very interesting, but it still doesn't prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that the bush gang did it. I also stated that I now believe that they had the PDB and had the means to stop it and didn't. But not stopping it and orchestrating it are two different things. Now I am done with this thread. Time to move on and discuss other stuff. People are going to believe what they want to anyway.

[rman]

101. "prove beyond the shadow of a doubt"

That's not up to us - it's up to proper legal investigation. We don't have the means to call witnesses, don't have secure chain of custody for obtaining evidence. All we can do is point out all the lies, omissions and inconsistencies in the official story.

It's a fallacy to to say that the only way for CTs to be believable is for civilians to "prove beyond the shadow of a doubt" - if that were the case than no crime would ever come to light.

[glitch]

86. Because it's impossible to massively loot governments all by yourself? nt

[CJCRANE]

88. Most of politics is a conspiracy.

A conspiracy is just a secret plan.

[shance]

96. "A conspiracy is just a secret plan".

Nicely put.

Thanks.

[astro]

91. do you think that powerful people leave everything up to random events?

think again...

not everything is a conspiracy but MANY events are.

[tomreedtoon]

94. Because "conspiracy hunters" are egotistical jerks.

And that goes for anyone who claims that Oswald didn't kill Kennedy, that Hillary Clinton DID kill with her bare hands, that black helicopters and marks on the backs of road signs are put there by the International Jewish Conspiracy, and all the rest.

Here's all you need to know about conspiracy hunters:

1) They repeat the same evidence over and over - the "big lie" technique.

2) They insist that anyone who might have evidence to the contrary, no matter how well based in science or common sense, are either fools or part of the conspiracy.

3) They assume the conspiracy worked perfectly to keep itself secret before the assassination, the evil event or whatever they did, but suddenly lost all its secrecy afterwards. They were perfect conspirators before, they all turned into Peter Griffin afterwards.

4) The conspiracy hunters don't want to do anything against the conspiracy. They seek to prove how smart they are and how stupid the rest of us are - and in reality, they want to prove the conspiracy to show that THEY should lead it. (I call this the Jason Todd Agenda. He was the wiseass kid that said, "Bruce Wayne, I've discovered you are Batman - now you have to make me your sidekick." He was so nauseating that Jason Todd was killed off a few years later. As I wish would be the fate of these jerks who keep summoning boogiemen who "really" killed Kennedy.)

As you said, the Ohio Election is a different thing. There is real evidence of fraud, and the people investigating it DO want to take action against the past and future vote frauds, and they are modest people who aren't all trying to sell books or become celebrities at a Conspiracy-Con.

[Philosoraptor]

98. Always accept the official story, till the day you demise.

That's the American way.

[tomreedtoon]

104. "The day you demise?" Is you a paranoid poet, then?

And you can always be suspicious of anything anyone tells you that doesn't feed your ego. Don't you realize your paranoia is only one step away from you climbing a tower on a college campus with a rifle?

Heck, believe what you want. At least I'm not tying my stomach up in knots when I see a black helicopter or a page of text written in Hebrew. Or a black cat crossing my path, either.

[nolabels]

95. So when does this word get put to rest?

Just like the F-word, it is impossible for the world to function without it.
The people who think their stuff :hurts: don't stink are the same people that are using the rest of the lexicon to describe how theirs somehow smells better.

[CJCRANE]

97. Anti-"conspiracy theory" people.

Please show me one post where a DUer seriosuly argued that

*the moon landings were fake
*aliens did...anything
*Jews control the world

These kind of arguments are straw men because no one talks about this kind of stuff anymore.

[wizdum]

100. Because the criminals are in control and nothing they do can be trusted.

Question everything.

[burythehatchet]

102. Allow me to re-phrase the question

How delusional must someone be in order to believe anything that is done or said in the name of this administration?