Howard Dean for President in 2008!!!

[Nimrod2005]

Do you think he can be elected?

He was ahead of everyone on many many issues in 2003/2004 - He was later proven right, and all of them wrong...

[jaysunb]

1. Being right in America means nothing !

it just hardens the positions of those on the other side.
:evilfrown:

[Cha]

69. Totally Dude!

:popcorn: :evilgrin:

[TwentyFive]

2. Count me in as a supporter!

Howard Dean would make an excellent president. He is the exact opposite of Gore/Clinton/Kerry in that he's not afraid or backpeddles on his positions. He is a leader in the mold of Roosevelt and Truman - somebody like him is needed to lead us through the mess that BushCo has made.

[Nimrod2005]

3. Agree - And Wes Clark can be his Veep?

[lyonn]

40. That combo is sooo exciting

Both are people persons. That is the talk about Clinton, that he was a people person and it's true. We can relate to what they say. Understand where they are coming from.

[Clark2008]

115. I would flip it for two reasons (and not one of them is

because of my user name):

A. The Commander in Chief should be the military guy - the guy who warned Congress NOT to go to war in Iraq. That we needed to finish the job in Afghanistan. The president should have a masters degree in economics. Wes fits those bills.
B. Wes has more of a chance to flip some red states than Dean. I don't buy that Dean would have won (even though I like him, don't get me wrong) because I don't think he would have flipped any Southern or mid-Western states. Wes has the ability to do that because, despite his being a populist progressive, people automatically assume he's some sort of moderate because of his 34 years of military service.

Therefore, a Clark/Dean ticket would kick ass. Can you imagine the activist level of involvement in that ticket?

:bounce:

[JNelson6563]

4. I love Dean

But I want him building the party as he has been doing. Enough of havinga 17 state national party!!!

I say have Gore run in 08 and have Howard running the party operation.

Julie

[aceman2373]

7. This is my first post on the site... Hi

Unfortunately, having Gore or Dean run for president would cause yet another loss for us in the election. Neither of them are electable, the republicans will make that happen... We have a better chance with Hillary.

[Nimrod2005]

8. Welcome to DU

Hillary is not popular on this site ----

[patricia92243]

10. Welcom to DU!! Hope this is just the first of many posts!

[JNelson6563]

56. Yes, such unique insights!

:eyes:

[Exultant Democracy]

102. HaHaHaHa

the things they say eh?

[durrrty libby]

12. How can you say Gore is unelectable ?

He received more votes than any candidate in our history.

Why make statements as fact without some attempt to qualify it.

Dean promised he wouldn't run in 08, but the guy is brilliant,

so dismissing him out if hand is absurd.


What makes you think Hillary could win?

Personally, I think it would be wonderful, but so many people in our party

dislike her to the point of irrationality. I don't think she is electable

this time around.

[wryter2000]

24. For too many people

the name "Clinton" makes their heads spin on their shoulders and smoke come out of their ears. Plus, I think it's still uphill for a woman to get elected President.

Gore won the first time, and there wouldn't be any more "there's no difference between the R's and the D's" this time. Plus, he has more of a popular culture persona now. People have seen him be funny, and people have seen him on fire.

I adore Dean. I'd love to have him President over anyone else. But I don't think he's ever going to live down the scream. Plus, I believe he promised not to run when he became party chairman. And the big plus, I want to see him work on getting us organized. Dean belongs where he is, imho.

[lyonn]

47. The Dean scream -

All the Dems need to do is get the shouting/scream that doesn't shut out the crowds roar! He was trying to shout over the room noise. There is a tape with sound that shows the actual conditions that night in the room. I have heard it and couldn't believe that it wasn't repeated on MSM like the one that only picked up his mike.

[NYCGirl]

64. Here's the film I think you're referring to:

http://www.webmastersforamerica.com/Idiom_Studio/video1.htm

[theplutsnw]

80. As a diehard Dean fan, I totally agree with you 100%

And I think Gore is our best chance. He is out to re-frame the importance of our planet and he is turning the war on terror onto its ass. I did not vote for Gore in 2000. I sort of fell for the "there is no difference" but that will not fly this time, because I have faith in Dean and Gore that they will not let it.

[Ladyhawk]

117. Unfortunately, now isn't the time for a lady president. :(

I say that as someone who wants to see a woman POTUS before I die. Also, I'm not much of a Hillary fan. Right now, I am hoping Gore will run, but maybe for selfish reasons. I want a chance to vote for him because I screwed up in 2000 by voting for the weed. Damn...damn, damn, damn! What a stupid thing to do. Luckily, my vote didn't count because my state went for Gore. That's one time I'm glad my vote didn't count! :)

[Clark2008]

119. Actually, Kerry received more votes than any Democrat

in history - more people voted.

That said, I get your point.

But, in just reading some of the letters to the editor in my local paper, I can assure you that Gore is still seen as either a loser or a raving lunatic. And I live in his home state.

It's sad. It's wrong, but, unfortunately, it's the reality in which we live. :(

[dysfunctional press]

15. hillary has no chance.

dlc repuke lite centrist dems are the death of our party.

[wryter2000]

20. Welcome to DU

:hi:

[JNelson6563]

50. rofl!!

Gore's already been elected once! Not "electable"! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

"...Better chance with Hillary"!!!! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Welcome to DU. ;-)

[geardaddy]

79. Hillary is equally unelectable

[SavetheUSA]

83. ya think?

Hillary would do better with Republicans?


I think the Dennis Kucinich is the one to bring the parties together and lead the country.

Kucinich would cancel NAFTA and the WTO...Republicans use to be against free trade when Clinton implimented it.

Kucinich is pro-choice but he understands where the pro-life people are coming from because he use to be that way until he figured out that this is a free country where people are supposed to be able to make their own decisions in their personal lives.

Dennis is for Universal Health Care and as much as some yell communism, the polls show the clear majority in this country are for Universal Health Care.

Dennis led the effort against the patriot act...upholding our constitution crosses party lines.

And the number one reason....Dennis saw through bullshit on the Iraq war from the beginning. He speaks the truth and people on both side of the isle are looking for the truth right now. I think we are more united than divided (see Bush's approval ratings) and all Democrats should start speaking out loudly like Dennis. It is time to rally our base!

[newyawker99]

87. Hi aceman2373!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[WyLoochka]

89. OH BS - this "electable" stuff

We have to stop responding to that GOP talking point. The GOP will ridicule every single one of our guys in order to try to make each "unelectable." And they will succeed, if we continue to throw in the towel and agree with them so easily.

We do not have one person who is immune from their attacks and it is NOT helpful for us to be capitulating and saying "yes, yes this person and this person and that one over there are "unelectable." To the GOP - ALL of our people are "unelectable." Let's stop rubber stamping their rhetoric.

ALL of our people are preferable to theirs. Every single one.

We should go with the one we think would be best for the country, period. In my book, that would be Howard Dean.

[bigwillq]

91. Welcome to DU!

I don't agree with what you say in your post but welcome!

:hi:

[ima_sinnic]

93. ah, the "unelectable" meme. sorry, but they already shoved that

down our throats (and by "they" I mean the repukes masquerading as dems, the DLC and so on, with their treacherous spin and manipulation). It is meaningless claptrap and you know it. Gore WON the popular vote in 2000. Do you honestly believe Gore and even Nader voters are going to switch over to the repuke candidate??

Hillary??!! HA! now I hate the repukes and want a DEMOCRAT to win, but I don't want to vote for her. She is a Bush-enabling war-approving sell-out.

thanks for playing.

[Clark2008]

116. Welcome to DU - now I'll tell you why you're wrong.

Hillary is female.

This country has gone backwards in terms of its thoughts regarding women, in general, and women in power, specifically.

Because of this, the mushy middle in the purple/red states (the ones we HAVE to flip to win - we have to snag at least two, three for comfort) will not vote for Hillary as long as we're in some war, some where (and we will be by 2008).

Throw in all the built-in ammunition for knowing a person too well, the over-abundance of Reich-wing media in the red states and her negatives amongst the voters in her own party, and you have a landslide FOR THE OTHER SIDE.

She can't win. I like her (well, I did. Her recent triangulations are ugly). I think she's very intelligent and competent, but she's not someone the American voter is gonna want to have a beer with.

[Crunchy Frog]

123. Welcome to DU.

IMO, a Hillary nomination would just about guarantee another Repuke in the WH.

I don't know whether Dean is electable, but it's a moot point since he agreed not to run if he became DNC chair. Al Gore already won an election, and I think he has become much more politically savvy since then.

I have nothing personal against Hillary, but there is nobody who can mobilize the RW the way she will. That's why the Repuke controlled media is pushing her so hard.

[theboss]

5. I would have a small problem with the head of the DNC running

Jeez, I wounder who the funds should go towards.

[patricia92243]

6. Oh be still my beating heart . That would be wonderful, but he promised

not to run in 08 in exchange for the DNC Chairmanship.

:(

[lies and propaganda]

9. shit... I ADORE him

wish to god i would have just wrote him in instead of Kerry, But I think hes going to be exhausted by the end of his Chairman stint.
Or hopefully he will be, from turning the party into something formidable.

[Vogt]

11. I think

he actually would be a good president, but realistically he has no chance. He's too much of a loose cannon. At some point he'll shoot his mouth off and bring the party down with him. The next election is too important. Our country is broken - shattered - from six years of incompetent, primitive and barabarous rule and it must be rescued. Hillary sure as hell isn't the solution. We need to put a "center" Dem out there to take this thing. My pick -- Evan Bayh/Barak Obama. Bayh is completely presidential; he's moderate, intelligent, young, well spoken and knows foreign policy. I'm a Hoosier and he was an excellent governor here - when he was only 30. Obama is clearly the fastest rising star in the party as well. I think we could get the White House back with these two.

[wryter2000]

27. Welcome to DU

:hi:

[Vogt]

33. Thanks

Cheers.

[Clark2008]

120. I completely agree with your point of getting a PERCEIVED

moderate on the ticket, but Bayh isn't really a moderate - he's a corporatist.

How 'bout my guy: a populist, not beholding to corporations and a PERCEIVED moderate (who's really a liberal, but, shhhhhhh, don't tell the mushy middle about that. They think a 34-year vet is a moderate). Stick him in and you'll have Virginia, Arkansas, Arizona and New Mexico all in the blue column. We'd win.

[apple_ridge]

13. Dean would make the perfect president.

And that's exactly why he won't get elected. <sigh>

[blm]

14. Do you think Rove didn't know about Dean's support for Biden-Lugar version

of IWR? Just because it took Gephardt and Kerry a long time to hear about it, doesn't mean Rove wasn't ready to hammer him with it if Dean turned out to be the nominee.

What you saw for all of 2003 was a media and Dem candidates who never realized that Dean supported a version of the IWR that STILL would have seen Bush invade Iraq - Bush was going to violate ANY version of the IWR - the Downing Street Memos proved that.

[cali]

17. First I've heard of this

I'd really appreciate some evidence backing it up.

[blm]

21. Sure - alot of the msm news articles are gone, but here's TNR

http://www.tnr.com/doc.mhtml?i=dispatch&s=lizza112503

[madfloridian]

23. I have my research all stored away if you really want to do this, blm.

I can get it out and put it together.

Kerry is speaking out two years later in the way he should have spoken out then.

Dean was saying it then, though he did think BL would tie Bush's hands.

He even said Saddam might have weapons, but NOT an IMMEDIATE threat.

[blm]

29. They ALL thought resolution guidelines would be met. IWR or B-L version.

Why does his support for B-L make you so upset when anyone points it out?

B-L was a good resolution, but the DSM proves Bush would have violated ANY resolution - B-L or IWR.

I just can't see why you would get so mad about something that is a fact.

[madfloridian]

49. This is NOT about BL, it is about the way this is done.

These posts make it sound like Dean supported the war, talking points, baloney, and he did not.

People like you have taken excerpts from interviews and not given the paragraphs following.

That time is over. The party made sure Dean lost. Then Kerry lost, and we entered the New World Order bigtime.

[blm]

57. They do not - Dean supported a RESOLUTION that would have prevented war

if administered correctly - I don't blame B-L and I don't blame IWR - I blame the person who would have violated either of those resolutions - - BUSH.

Stop twisting this into something it's not.

[madfloridian]

22. It is not true.

She figures if she keeps saying it we will forget Kerry voted for the war and slammed Dean for speaking out against it.

It is baloney.

[blm]

32. That's not true, mf. B-L is nothing to be angry about - and I cannot

imagine why Dean's support of it makes you so upset. The DSM prove Bush was going to violate ANY resolution.

Why do you always turn it into something else? There is no reason to feel shame or anger about B-L, it was a better version of the IWR. I think you bought into the spin that the IWR was so evil that any support for anything similar will be attacked unfairly, too.

Sorry, but, I see both resolutions for what they were - resolutions that would have PREVENTED WAR if implemented with honesty.

[madfloridian]

19. Bullshit stuff you post everytime, blm

Bush said that version of Biden Lugar would tie his hands...Dean said it would tie his hands. That is the bottom line.

If you want people to believe Kerry is really changing on this issue, stop making it sound like Dean was a supporter of the war.

He was not. He never was. He once hypothetically talked in what ifs with Russert. I have the interview.

This is a bunch of stuff you say every time. You want people to stop saying too late Kerry....then you guys quit putting blame on Dean for Kerry's vote.

[blm]

26. I never said he supported war, I said he supported a RESOLUTION similar to

the IWR that passed. Bush would have violated it, too, to have his war.

Kerry supported a resolution that should have avoided war, too.

Why do you feel it necessary to call Dean's support for Biden-Lugar bullshit? He DID support it and there is ample evidence of it. It is also a fact that the Biden-Lugar bill was not significantly different than the final version of IWR which absorbed some of the B-L points.

[madfloridian]

30. The way you always say that is bullshit.

You make it sound like it was ok for Kerry because Dean once agreed that BL would tie Bush's hands.

Kerry is a big boy, he is taking responsibility for his vote.

You guys need to let him do that and stop blaming Dean for Kerry's vote.

[blm]

37. HUH? Where does THAT come from? The point was that Rove would have

twisted Dean up over Biden-Lugar. If Gephardt was able to do it in a Dem debate, then Rove would have with all the media helping him every step of the way.

[madfloridian]

43. Rove did not have to......Dean's own party did it to him.

We have not forgotten.

[blm]

45. Stop acting so fearful over Biden-Lugar. You attack as if it was leprosy.

.

[madfloridian]

48. You keep excusing what Kerry did and saying Dean did it too.

That is so silly. I have all that stuff saved, and the other candidates made sure Dean got his comeuppance for daring to cross them.

I don't think you really want to go there.

Biden Lugar was a way to tie Bush's hands....that was not what the vote was on. And Dean said Saddam had not been proven an immediate threat.

So much, so tiremsome.

[blm]

52. Go ahead, mf - treat me as if I'm an enemy - but you're blowing this way

out of proportion. You can post all the evidence you have that Biden-Lugar would have prevented war - I will await your postings. But, every analysis I have ever read is that B-L and IWR were SUBSTANTIVELY similar and Bush would have gone to war with either bill, because he was planning to violate any guidelines set forth. The DSM was proof of that.

[madfloridian]

55. Bush said BL would tie his hands. Dean agreed.

But then came another version... and so on until there wasn't one.

You are making it sound like Dean supported the war. He did not.

[blm]

59. Bush was talking shit then - he was ACTING - he already KNEW he was going

to violate anything that came out - the DSM proves that. Stop twisting my words into something else. I don't say Dean supported war because of B-L and I don't say IWR supported war, either.

Either bill would have PREVENTED WAR if adhered to as written.

[Nimrod2005]

51. So true...

[JNelson6563]

54. *sigh* Like an itchy rash

that keeps flaring up, so go the on-going primary 04 battles in the minds of some.

So, so sad.

Julie

[Radical Activist]

34. Dean also said we would have to keep troops there for 3-5 years.

That was during the primary, and he supported keeping the pentagon budget at war time levels. Dean was never a peace candidate. Just an opportunist with his finger to the wind.

[madfloridian]

39. That is totally untrue. Want to debate?

?

[Radical Activist]

60. There's nothing to debate here. Its a simple fact.

During the '03 Debates Dean said he would continue the occupation in Iraq for at least 3 more years to stabilize it and he was against cuts in defense spending. In fact, he was still supporting the occupation in 2005. You know that. There's no debate here for those of us who live in the real world.

Dean on Meet the Press July 2003: "I believe that we need a very substantial increase in troops. They don't all have to be American troops. My guess would be that we would need at least 30,000 and 40,000 additional troops."

[Nimrod2005]

41. Busllshit...Dean took opposite position, are you changing history?

Are you Rove? Or Cheney?

[blm]

46. Research it yourself - google Dean Biden-Lugar resolution or use this link

http://www.tnr.com/doc.mhtml?i=dispatch&s=lizza112503

I can't believe that so many DUers never even knew this, which proves how under-informed people can be while they attack others.

[madfloridian]

53. You are doing it again. If you want to go there....

let's go back to the day when Saddam was captured. Dean stopped the speech he was giving to say that the capture of Saddam was not going to make us safer.

Kerry said that remark showed he was not fit to be president. Who was right?

I can go if you want to.

[blm]

65. Deal with the B-L. Rove would've tripped him up just as easily and worse

than Gephardt did during the Iowa debate, and THAT was the ONLY POINT I MADE.

You insist on turning this issue into something else while refusing to address the actual point made.

[cali]

66. gee, blm

that's it? Pathetic. The public record makes it clear that Dean saw the Iraq war as a misadventure based on lies. You've just never let go of your primary antipathy toward Dean, even as you give amusingly transparent lip service to his tenure as DNC chair. I haven't forgotten your vituperative attacks on Dean during the runup to 2004. You're the one who needs to let it go.

[blm]

67. The point was that Dean would've gotten tripped up on B-L even more so by

Rove than Gephardt did during the Iowa debate.

And you said it was the first you heard of it - so I supplied the information - and I supplied it with no editorializing about Dean, and in fact, approved of his support for B-L as it was a better written bill. So, instead of thanking me for the information, you attack me. This is considered fair?

I challenge you to reread the entire exchange here and be fair about what was said. I give Dean more honest attention and credit than you assume. And I do it without attacking him or anyone else on this board.

It would be nice if more on this board submitted facts with reasoned analysis - minus the personal attacks.

[WI_DEM]

16. He said he wouldn't run for president if he took DNC Chair

but I don't necessarily rule out VP.

[havocmom]

18. He would have won votes from a lot of life long republicans here

if he had been the DEM nominee back in 04. People are even LESS enthralled with the GOP policies now. He would get lots of votes in Montana.

[Placebo]

25. Hey Nimrod...

No.

[Nimrod2005]

36. Too bad

[madfloridian]

28. He is not going to run because he said he would not.

However, if he did, he would have loads of support.

He is definitely electable though the others kept saying he was not.

This post's timing is just as Dean is posting that they will put up the numbers of donors for the 50 State strategy.

Take a look, over 700 since about 1:00.

www.democrats.org

Oops, gone up to almost 900 in about half an hour.

[SmokingJacket]

31. Americans aren't ready for him.

Sorry to be so cynical.

[madfloridian]

35. That is how you did it in 04...not electable...far ahead of the pack.

Of course the country is ready. That is DLC talk.

[Nimrod2005]

38. Touche

[SmokingJacket]

61. I was one of those people who were RABID about him.

I had house parties for him, printed up full color fliers outlining his policies, went to the Meet ups, sent more money than I could afford, was -- and is! -- in love with him. Totally. He's smart and compassionate and there's no bullshit about him. He would be an excellent president.

And I would support him again. If he was the candidate, my cynicism would immediately drop away and I would write a long manifesto stating my love and devotion to the American people who nominated him and to the Democratic party in particular.

But... he did NOT win the nomination. His support vanished soon after the media started that ridiculous "scream" campaign. If the American people -- Democrats!! -- could be swayed by THAT, well, they AREN'T ready for him.

Sorry, that whole episode broke my fricking heart.

[mnhtnbb]

72. ME, too! House parties, Meet-ups, money, petitions to put him on NC

ballot. You name it, I did it. LOVED the man from early 2003. I'll never forgive Kerry/Gephardt for all the bullshit they ran on him after Gore gave his support to Dean. Didn't lift a gd finger to help Kerry and when he gave up election night, I knew I'd made the right decision.

I live in Edwards country--in fact Edwards is building a home in Chapel Hill, NC. I thought he was premature to give up his Senate seat. Alot of Tar Heels weren't happy to see him do it. But, and this is a big but, I'm beginning to see him as the best opportunity for 2008. I don't think Gore can be persuaded to run again--although I'd love to see him do it. I think he's the most qualified. I think Dean is a man of his word, and won't run again because he said he wouldn't if he took DNC chair. Who does that leave?
I would NEVER support Hillary and I don't think Feingold can generate
the backing that I think Edwards can. Clark? I think a lot of Dems aren't really sure about him, yet.

I'm really surprised to see myself writing this, but I think it's time for Edwards.

[SmokingJacket]

76. I grew to like Edwards quite a bit, too.

And I love Elizabeth Edwards.

I respected Kerry for his intelligence and he really surprised me by his excellent responses during the debates, but he never set my blood afire. That was okay -- I just wanted someone who wasn't an insane war-mongering ASSHOLE for president, but whatever...

I'd be most thrilled by an Edwards/Obama ticket -- they are both smart and fresh and untainted by the crazy preconceptions of the public. I LOVE Feingold, but I think you might be right about the lack of support, and Gore has an unfortunate history, but not even Hillary Clinton could make me go third party at this point.

[blm]

85. Question - what did Kerry do to Dean that was more serious to you than

what Dean did back? Did you really see it only one way?

I have said numerous times that both the Dean camp and the Kerry camp exaggerated their differences with each other, and that both men probably regret that. I'd like to hear why you feel that it was all one-sided.

[Radical Activist]

42. Oh Gawd.

The thing to remember about Dean being ahead on the issues is that he was really just the one the media chose to cover. There's nothing Dean was out front on that wasn't said by Kucinich and Shaprton first, usually weeks or months earlier. Dean was often forced to speak out on progressive issues in response to the liberal candidates.

Dean did a good job of reading what the Democratic primary electorate wanted to hear. If he had won the nomination, he would have run back to the middle where he was as Governor.

[madfloridian]

44. He never left the middle, my friend. Most of us were "middle"...

That is just more bullshit about his being liberal. The DLC called a centrist governor fringe, and they have been making fun of us ever since.

Time is on our side...the future will tell. But 08 is for someone else.

[Mass]

58. Trippi was the one who wanted to position Dean to the left. (he said so i

in an interview).

The DLC was too happy to use that.

This said, Dean is a great DNC chair and I hope he will continue to implement his 50-states strategy. I just would hope that people do not restart these old stories all the time. Tell me how it helps winning in 06.

[Radical Activist]

62. Dean shifted

Apparently, based on who he was listening to at the time. For some audiences he followed Trippi's advice to go left, at other times he didn't.

But there's was never a doubt what was meant by Paul Wellstone's line "I'm from the democratic wing of the Democratic Party." It can't be blamed on the media.

[madfloridian]

71. No, that is not what he meant. Back to 04. Same old same old.

.

[Radical Activist]

73. yes. same old rationalizations and excuses.

Same cult-like devotion.

[madfloridian]

75. Same old use ot the word "cult" by certain people....

Oh, yeh, baby.

[WildEyedLiberal]

86. You need to stop insisting on pointing out well-known facts about Dean

Some people like to pretend that Dean never supported Biden-Lugar and never hijacked Paul Wellstone's memory to endear himself to the left wing, and anyone who points out either of those facts is clearly a dishonest DLC rat bastard.

:sarcasm:

[Radical Activist]

94. lol

Awesome post.

BTW, You should come to the DL Springfield 1 year anniversary party next week in Springfield.

[madfloridian]

97. I don't.

I know every word he said about BL, and I know that this thread has nothing to do with that Biden Lugar thingy at all.

It is another attempt by some of the former/still Kerry supporters to be sure to excuse Kerry's vote for the war by bringing Dean into the war debate.

Hey, did you know Dean also said Saddam had WMDs? Did you know he also said he supported other wars, not this one. Because the president had NOT proven he was an immediate threat.

SOME PEOPLE know what he stood for, some people know that. Some people still try to blame Dean because Kerry voted for the war when he knew it was wrong.

Some people are pretty smart, some like to make fun of them. Now it is time to use the word paranoia...haven't seen that this thread. Putting down the intelligence of others doesn't make any difference in what Kerry voted for.

[madfloridian]

101. What's worse, WEL.....

Using Wellstone's name to show how far right the party was going, to call attention to why so many Democrats were voting for Bush's pre-emptive war? Yes, those words were said in the same sentence.

OR is it worse for an intelligent, well-educated senator to vote for the president to have his war, though we knew Bush was incompetent and unscrupulous.

Which is worse....to mention Wellstone and say look where the party is now?

Or to vote for Bush's war and take two damn years to say I'm sorry?

Bring it on.

[WildEyedLiberal]

103. The spin cycle continues over two years later

Dean shamelessly hijacked Paul Wellstone's memory in order to falsely portray himself as the reincarnation of the Populist Left, when IN REALITY there was no real difference between his Iraq position and Kerry's. Not to mention Kerry has always been substantially to the left of Dean on every other issue. Yet it was Dean - largely through his co-opting of the far more liberal Wellstone's memory - who positioned himself as the "far left" candidate.

I could care less that Dean supported Biden-Lugar. I DO care that his supporters continue to falsely claim that he alone was "right" about the war, when the only goddamn reason he didn't vote on B-L or IWR was because he was not in the Senate. Had Senator Dean from Vermont been voting in 2002, methinks your tune would be a lot different than it is now. It sure is easy to claim decisively what you would or wouldn't have done when you were never faced with the choice, isn't it?

It's not his position that bothers me, it's the continued and repeated dishonesty and lies from his disgruntled dittoheads.

[madfloridian]

104. Talk about spin? Dittohead? I'm a dittohead? Isn't that a little ugly?

I was going to post a thank you post to Kerry yesterday for speaking up about the war.

Then I see this thread where you and blm started this Biden Lugar crap again.

I have never ever been ugly about Kerry, we donated almost a thousand to him...but now the gloves are off.

Remember how many times you have said this to me? Read my lips.
You have said it's Dean supporters you can't stand.

Well, guess what little missy, I am not too fond of Kerry people right now.

I like Kerry, it's the people who have insulted me for years I don't like.

Bring it on.

[WildEyedLiberal]

106. I really have never cared one iota what you think of me.

I will call out falsehoods and lies whenever I see them, and if that offends your sensibilities - that's a damn shame, isn't it?

You don't give a shit about what Kerry said about the war. The fact that you are claiming to use it as leverage to "get back" at me and blm - who, by the way, only pointed out a very well-known fact - kind of proves that. If you liked what he said, you'd praise it, period. If I like something Dean says, I will praise him for it, regardless of my personal feelings for you. I don't feel the need to draw attention to myself and make my support for Dean conditional on whether or not I like his fan club.

You act as though I care which candidate you will throw your slavish, starry-eyed idol-worship behind. Actually, I kind of feel sorry for whatever campaign ends up saddled with you - you take "devotion" about three steps too far.

[madfloridian]

107. You need to just leave me alone then.

Since Dean is not running, Kerry is, you don't have to attack me. You don't have to find my posts and say something you think will hurt my feelings.

You need to really stop this.

[WildEyedLiberal]

108. "Hurt your feelings?"

Posting that Dean was for B-L hurts your feelings?

Holy shit, you and reality must be really estranged, huh?

I would have left this thread alone if you hadn't decided to start flinging poo at blm for posting a simple FACT. When you stop distorting the official record, I promise I will leave you alone.

[madfloridian]

109. Calling me names was intended to be hurtful. Like dittohead, liar.

Silly little things like that.

I think perhaps there are a few things you don't understand about what you doing. blm and I will work things out, we always have. We both get upset, and we usually work it out with each other.

Here is the difference. I very much respect her intelligence, even though I think she should not have injected Biden Lugar into this thread. A lot of us were impressed with Kerry this week at TBA, and it was not a good thing to start this 04 stuff again.

I know Dean's stance on Biden Lugar, I have folders on stuff like that. It has nothing to do with this thread, and it irritated me for it to be brought up.

Let me continue about the difference. I respect blm, and we will work our differences out. She is sensible and intelligence but that area she needs to leave alone this week when we are warming to Kerry.

That is the difference. I like blm, and I respect her. I am angry with her today and she is probably angry with me. But I will get her back in the future. She gets my back a lot.

That is the difference. I do not make fun of her, she does not make fun of me. Now, you have made your feelings very clear about me, and you are making it very very very personal. Not a good thing for an internet forum. Get away from the personal.

(edited to spell dittohead correctly.)

[WildEyedLiberal]

111. "But that area she needs to leave alone while we are warming to Kerry"?

Are you fucking kidding me? You think blm - or anyone - should edit the TRUTH they say about Howard Dean because it might offend some Deaniacs whose "support" for Kerry is entirely conditional on how well Kerry supporters kiss their ass?

If you gave a shit about what Kerry was doing, it would have NOTHING to do with me. NOTHING to do with blm. The very fact that you'd dare to bring either of us into it, and your personal conflicts with us, shows the depth of your "support" for Kerry.

If you like what he's doing, if you want to support him, THEN DO IT. Who gives a shit about me or blm or what we say - all of which was TRUE by the way - about Dean? If you really liked what Kerry was doing, what does anything else have to do with it?

If you think you're "getting back at me" by using your mythical Kerry support as a pawn against me, think again.

[madfloridian]

112. blm and I have communicated on this already today.

You need to be careful with saying personal things against others like you do.

blm and I are fine. You need to worry about you.

signing off

[WildEyedLiberal]

114. My feelings about this are perfectly clear.

I'm not speaking for blm. If she wants to make nice with you, that's her prerogative. I don't "hate" you, contrary to what you may believe, but I tire of seeing your distortions.

[JetCityLiberal]

125. Right back at you

so very sick of your distortions.

And stop STALKING madfloridian. It's sick and juvenile...and never ending. You ALWAYS show up.

You get over it, Kerry's yes on IWR was stupid. Fucking stupid.

You don't help him on these forums at all, is that your point?


edit for spelling

[Guaranteed]

118. And Mad,

you need to stop asking for apologies from these clowns for attacking you.

Everyone knows who was right, who was wrong. It was all PAINFULLY obvious- with those in the wrong holding elected positions of power at the time.

Sure, that made it easier for Dean to take the positions that he did. But it's no goddamned excuse for those who held seats. There's nothing for them to do but apologize to us- the American people- which many have done, thankfully.

But, damn. You're a Dean supporter. Stop letting people steamroll you, especially people who supported the WRONG person.

[Radical Activist]

63. Dean called himself liberal.

"I'm from the democratic wing of the Democratic Party." When Wellstone said that it meant he was a liberal and it still meant the same thing when Dean said it. Stop making excuses for him.

[madfloridian]

70. No, that is not calling oneself liberal.....not what he meant.

He meant the party had gone so far right they were more Republicans than not.

He once said that....that if people thought he was liberal, then the party must have really moved to the right.

He never claimed to be liberal...he said the word was polluted by the right and he was not sure it could be reclaimed.

This is so much fun....just like 04. Are we all happy little Democrats attacking the party chair.

Guess what since the letter went out over 1000 donations to the DNC.

www.democrats.org

[Radical Activist]

77. What did it mean to the people who heard him say it?

That's what matters and you know the answer to that. All things to all people...

[durrrty libby]

78. I must have missed the explanation

Can you tell me about the “letter”. Did it just go out today?

I’ve been watching the numbers fly since you first linked to

http://www.democrats.org/. Donations have more than doubled since you first mentioned it.

[madfloridian]

81. Yes, the email just went out today. The post went up about 1:00 today.

So it is really moving along.

[durrrty libby]

82. Thanks, It looks as though they will meet their goal tonight.

Already over 2,600

They should have set the goal at 50,000.

[blm]

68. I don't think Dean intended that the way Trippi made it out. It was Trippi

who pushed it more than Dean, and the media pushed it more than Trippi, instead of doing their own homework.

[lyonn]

74. Surely you are not knocking Dean for having some of

the same issues Kucinich and Sharpton had? Actually, Dean spoke on most all the democratic issues; Heathcare, the war, insurance issues, and spoke out against the rant the repubs had on issues like tort reform, civil unions, etc. He was very outspoken, that is why the media followed him, he had lots to say and said it clearly.

[LittleClarkie]

84. He's busy

He's growing grassroots and stuff.

[noahmijo]

88. He'd have to resign as DNC chairman to run

that's the only thing

[skyblue]

90. Vermont, Liberal, married to a Jewish Doctor

Not bloody likely. He's not warm enough.

[NYCGirl]

96. He's moderate and a country doctor.

That's very warm. In fact, that's warm and fuzzy.
:thumbsup:

[skyblue]

110. Like the comment ....

But......
x( x(

nah. not on my good side in any way.

[MaineDem]

92. No thank you

Besides his pledge to the DNC that he wouldn't run I odn't think it would be a good move on his part.

And not good for the Democratic Party.

[Ksec]

95. Only if we can get the right wing noise machine shut up or

at least get our own machine to make counter noises. Anyone we put out there is doomed to being swiftboated, no matter how good he/she would be. It doesnt matter if we put Abe freakin Lincoln on the ballot. Theyd have him in bed with BinLaden or raping little children while stealing from old folks.

[Upfront]

98. As always

For Dean, count me in!!!!!!!!!

[ceile]

99. If only he would run!!

I would vote for him in a heart beat. Medical coverage, better education, prosperity (because we would undoubtedly prosper)-what more could you want?! sigh

[deaniac21]

100. HEAR HEAR !!!!!!

[madfloridian]

105. The saddest part about this thread....I was called a liar and dittohead.

This thread really should not have been started, because Dean is not going to run in 08.

However, it did something I thought was over....it brought up old angers from 04 which were not needed.

Because I supported Dean, I on this thread was called disgruntled, a liar, and a dittohead.

I had a post ready to post to thank Kerry, and also Edwards, for having the courage to speak up now about Iraq.

Now, hell will freeze over.

Dean is not running, you don't have to attack him, you don't have to attack us anymore. He is not running.

And those of you lost in 04 misty haze better quit calling us names like dittoheads. It does not even touch us anymore, it only makes you look foolish.

[WildEyedLiberal]

113. The only one lost in 04 is you

There was no problem in the thread until you threw a shit fit about Biden-Lugar. Someone can't get over 04, and that someone would be you.

[iamthebandfanman]

121. nah

dean is awesome, and i was a primary supporter of his, but i think the ticket needs to be

Gore/Clinton

:b

[AlohaTexan06]

122. Think of it this way.....

I truly beleive Howard Dean is one of the best high ranking democrats in the party. He brought spine back to the party and is a great DNC chairman. I'd love to see him become president but I don't think thats possible since he took the chairmanship and one of the requirements for that job was a promise not to run in 2008. But look at it this way, if he was president we could only have him for 8 years at most. If he rebuilds the party as DNC chair we can have him for much longer.

- Aloha Texan

[OhNoTheyDidNot]

124. He is my number one choice ..... how can we make this happen?

I guess I can start by reading all the responses in your thread for ways but I can't do it tonight. I am behind you 120% - he is the only one that I can get excited about ... he is the only one with a spine, that speaks his mind ... that speaks and I don't cringe on how he's going to back track or apologize .... if the democrates won't back him, can we do a dem party spin off - not quite green, not indy, ... here are the new partys

Neo Cons - Bush supporters
Republicans - McCain supporters
Democrats - Lieberman supporters
Liberal - DEAN SUPPORTERS - FIGHTERS - ANGRY - WE WANT CHANGE - WE WANT TO SEE MOST OF THE ADMINISTRATION IN PRISON. WE WANT OUR TROOPS HOME, WE WANT CORPORATE CORRUPTION PROSECUTED ... YADA YADA .... DEAN, YOU KNOW ....
the rest - Green Party, Socialist, etc. Good luck buddies.