For any who think Jews cannot discuss Israel objectively, read this,,,

[ugarte]

Operation Peace for the IDF
By Gideon Levy

Every neighborhood has one, a loudmouth bully who shouldn't be provoked into anger. He's insulted? He'll pull out a knife. Spat in the face? He'll draw a gun. Hit? He'll pull out a machine gun. Not that the bully's not right - someone did harm him. But the reaction, what a reaction! It's not that he's not feared, but nobody really appreciates him. The real appreciation is for the strong who don't immediately use their strength. Regrettably, the Israel Defense Forces once again looks like the neighborhood bully. A soldier was abducted in Gaza? All of Gaza will pay. Eight soldiers are killed and two abducted to Lebanon? All of Lebanon will pay. One and only one language is spoken by Israel, the language of force.

The war that the IDF has now declared on Lebanon and before it on Gaza, will never be considered another "war of no choice." Let's save that debate from the historians. This is unequivocally a war of choice. The IDF absorbed two painful blows, which were particularly humiliating, and in their wake went into a war that is all about restoring its lost dignity, which on our side is called "restoring deterrent capabilities." Neither in Lebanon nor certainly in Gaza, can anyone formulate the real goals of the war, so nobody knows for sure what will be considered victory or an achievement. Are we at war in Lebanon? With Hezbollah? Nobody knows for sure. If the goal is to remove Hezbollah from the border, did we try hard enough over the last two years through diplomatic channels? And what's the connection between destroying half of Lebanon and that goal? Everyone agrees that "something must be done." Everyone agrees that a sovereign state cannot remain silent when it is attacked within its own borders, though in Israel's eyes Lebanese sovereignty was always subject to trampling, but why should that non-silence be expressed solely by an immediate and all-out blow?


http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/738739.html

[babylonsister]

1. War of choice, loudmouth bully, now why are my bells ringing?

Sounds oh so familiar.

[ugarte]

4. It is a voice of dissent from an Israeli

It is nice to see that not all Israelis are on board with Israel's actions.

[babylonsister]

7. It is a voice of dissent from a man who is a realist and sees no

good coming from this. He recognizes his government's folly (at what cost?)-that I can relate to.

[Lost-in-FL]

2. Lets see how long this post lasts

:popcorn:

[hlthe2b]

3. Actually not surprised... I've found much more self-introspection

and candor coming from Israelis. It is this country, we have such a profound problem discussing anything that even tangentially can be construed as Israeli criticism.

[Lost-in-FL]

6. Why it is so hard

to accept that this time they got it wrong? Why Lebanon? Why the civilians and not just Hizballah?

[kentuck]

18. I think that is true...

We have a more difficult time than the Israelis in criticizing Israel. Why? A lot of it is in the media, in my opinion. Another part of it is politicians that grovel before the Israeli lobbyists. We just seem to have a more difficult time discussing any decisions by the Israelis. Perhaps it is because of our Puritan heritage and the Jews are God's chosen people and we cannot go against anything that might be in the Bible? And our government uses all of the above for propaganda purposes...

Israel a bully? Perhaps? With their weapons, it is hard to imagine a serious threat against them. But they do react to every threat and act of violence just as the writer of the editorial stated...

[chimpymustgo]

5. Excellent analysis. Thanks for posting that.

Here's more from the article:

"Israel once again is not distinguishing between a justified war against Hezbollah and an unjust and unwise war against the Lebanese nation. The camouflage concealing the war's real goals was ripped off by this defense minister, who says what he means: "Nasrallah is going to get it so bad that he will never forget the name Amir Peretz," he bragged, like a typical bully. Now at least we know that Israel went to war so that the name Amir Peretz is never forgotten. It's the war for the perpetuation of the name Peretz and the blurring of Dan Halutz's failures. And to hell with the cost."

[AusGail]

8. Remember the tactics used by the Nazis in ww2

If one person in the village did something detrimental to the Nazis, the whole village suffered. Does that sound familiar to what is happening today?

[papau]

12. No - it is not the same unless one calls war between states "collective

punishment"

A state allowed an act of war, and refuses to stop the folks that did the act.

The citizens of that state are then surprised by a response that includes all citizens because they claim it was only those fellows they can't control.

Either the State caused a war, or there isn't a state, or the real state is the folks that committed the act of war. In all 3 cases since there were votes and it is a democracy, everyone is at war and likely to feel the response of those who were attacked via a border crossing.

In the "person in the village did something detrimental to the Nazis" example the folks in the village had no standing as a state - they were just citizens being harmed by their own state.

No, it is not the same, IMHO.

[goforit]

9. Quite frankly, this is just a stepping stone to Iran and Syria!

[Monkeyman]

10. Yep

For Bush and company

[niallmac]

11. Also, have you seen this LA times story by David Meyers..

"The Middle Easts Symbolic Slugfest."

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-myers14jul14,0,7212792.story?coll=la -home-commentary

[Igel]

13. I once started a fight.

On a schoolbus. Leaned over and upper-cut the kid so hard I could hear his teeth knock together. My two years of karate class served me well. He was stunned, and by the time he could actually figure out where I was sitting, the other kids had me restrained.

The bus driver was pissed at me. The teacher monitor told me I was in trouble, starting fights was a sure way to get suspended. I'm sure today he'd have said "disproportionate force." I got taken to the vice-principle. He glared at me and told me to sit. Then he went away. He came back, gave me a hall pass, and simply said, slightly amused, that I should go to class. Not a single word of reproach. It didn't get put in my record.

For 6 months the kid I punched had taunted and teased me 30 minutes twice a day five days a week to and from school. The kids that insisted on stopping me from beating in this one kid's face never objected to my being abused. Then, one day, I snapped, and suddenly I had to be stopped, I was acting insane, had gone mad. But the VP talked to the other kids on the bus, and got clued in, and decided it was appropriate.

The kid never picked on me again. My quality of life was much improved.

But remember:

Violence never solved anything.

The aggressor is always in the wrong.

Two wrongs never make a right.

[blonndee]

14. Good story. But I would hope that nations wouldn't behave like

schoolchildren, wouldn't you?

[PA Democrat]

16. But did you kill any innocent bystanders in the process? n/t

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

15. Some of the most well reasoned...

...sensible, and enlightening commentary on the Israeli/Palestinian conflict comes from members of the Jewish community.

A couple examples:

http://www.endtheoccupation.org/article.php?id=1090

http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0411-22.htm

[burythehatchet]

17. brilliant

and not just because I agree with every word :)

[Fenris]

19. Locking.

This is a repost of a locked thread. Please do not repost it again.

Fenris

GD Moderator