I sense some hostility towards Israel here

[underpants]

Before you jump all over my case let me give you the specifics to feed on.

From my reading on the situation this whole thing really is Hezbollahs fault and Bush is right (no that's not it read a little more) in order to stop it go through Syria or Iran--that, of course is the WHAT the WHO and HOW are two completely different issues. I know we can go back back and back and all the tit for tat and all that but THIS EPISODE is the result of Hezbollah taking hostages and firing missiles into Israel. PERIOD.

Israel clearly had a plan ready to go. Yes civilians have been hurt but they have been hurt on both sides-which justify neither side- and when dealing with a non-state entity that dwells amongst the citizenry that is almost impossible to avoid unless Israel rolls in huge numbers or personnel you know occupies Lebanon again.

If anyone had been talking to each other maybe (MAYBE) this could have been avoided basically by Israel telling everyone else that if Hezbollah or anyone else tries anything they (Israel) is going to use that opportunity to end THEM once and for all. That appears to be what is happening, this is it they have A justification for going after Hezbollah and they are going to try to end it all right now or at least them right now.

I did see the Syrian ambassador on The News Hour with Jim Lehrer last night- I don't know if he was blowing smoke or not but he was very impressive ....BUT Israel has every right to defend itself. If the problem that some have is the extent to which they are doing it (the HOW) I can see that but they are sending out a clear message. Might work it might make things worse but then maybe everyone will start talking again. You don’t really think that Israel should have to just sit back and take missiles being lobbed into their country do you?


Inform, admonish, refute, agree, disregard, or whatever you choose-Have at it.

[ShortnFiery]

1. "Israel has every right to defend itself."

By aggressively DESTROYING a sovereign country and KILLING innocent civilians indiscriminately. How is killing innocents and bring the survivors into increased poverty, protecting yourself?

[truebrit71]

27. Excellent question, and one that needs to be asked everytime...

...that this knee-jerk defense is presented. How is it "defending yourself" by kidnapping Palestinians and then when 2 soldiers get nabbed in retaliation you lose your friggin mind and start shelling civilian targets.....???

[blueraven95]

36. Hezbollah and the Palestinians are two seperate groups

Hezbollah's capturing of two soldiers and killing others is not related to the back and forth between Israel and Palestine.

[truebrit71]

37. My point is that the Israel made the first move...

and NOT Hezbollah as is being reported by the Mainstream Presstitutes...

[blueraven95]

49. except they didn't make a first move against Hezbollah

there were moves from both Israel and Palestine, but not from Israel against Hezbollah. (which is a separate group from Palestine, which was my original point.)

[slaveplanet]

66. Not according to Junge welt

they are basically saying that Israeli Mossad has been very active in Lebannon running assassinations, carbombings aided by laser guidance from Israeli aircraft and civilian kidnappings right prior to the Hezbollah taking of the 2 Military targets.

They even tried to bring their concerns to the UN before the current hostilities.

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.jungewelt.de/2006/07-14/014.php&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=1&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dmeir%2Bdagan%2Bjunge%2Bwelt%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26sa%3DG

all I know is there are two sides to every story, and I suppose it all comes down to whom you want to believe.

[blueraven95]

73. I'm afraid I do not know that source

If this is true than I am surprised we are not hearing more about it...if not on mainstream news sources, then here online. This is the first I have heard of such accusations.

[slaveplanet]

130. How about Haaretz? Reuters?

heard of those?

From mid June...

Lebanese man confesses to killings on behalf of
Israel

http://www.nogw.com/download/2006_leb_man_killed_for_mossad.pdf

By Reuters

A Lebanese man has confessed to assassinating a series of senior Hezbollah
and Palestinian militants over a seven-year period on behalf of Israeli
intelligence, the Lebanese Army said on Tuesday.
It said Mahmoud Rafeh, arrested along with three others last week in connection
with the May 26 killing of two Islamic Jihad officials, was a leading member of a
"terrorist network" behind at least three other major assassinations in Lebanon.
"Investigations by military intelligence showed that the terrorist network that was
discovered had links to the Israeli Mossad for several years and that its
members underwent training both inside Israel and outside," the army statement
said.

"The network was tasked
by this agency with carrying
out these operations and
was given secret
communication and
monitoring devices for this
purpose along with detailed
maps of the target... forged
documents and bags with
secret pockets."

(...)

Pro-Syrian President Emile Lahoud said they proved that "Israel had not ceased
its attempts to sabotage Lebanon."

(...)

The army is hunting a Palestinian man also believed to be part of the network,
and those arrested will be taken to court, security sources said.

I included that last paragraph because there's another subscription only
Debka article that names the Palestinian.

The Palestinian Ain Hilwa refugee camp of Sidon, Palestinian military center in Lebanon, was shocked to learn that Hussein Khattab, a Palestinian, member of Ahmed Jibril’s radical Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine -General Command, was suspected of heading the second Israeli ring. His brother, Sheikh Jamal Khattab, is an Islamic cleric and an al Qaeda recruiting agent in Lebanon. Hussein escaped capture.


How interesting? the suspect of being a leader an Israeli espionage ring's brother is a bloody Al Queda recruiting agent.

Wonder why we didn't hear much about this at the time? :shrug:


PS: make sure you read the PDF link.


here's some more from the Debka piece:

An exploding car door detonated by an Israeli plane over Lebanon is suspected of killing the brothers Mahmoud and Nidal Mahjub in Sidon May 26 (DEBKAfile) 06/16/06
http://www.debka.com/headline.php?hid=2669

This is one of the disclosures emerging from Lebanon’s break-up of two alleged Israeli sabotage-spy rings held responsible for the targeted assassination of the brothers, who were Hizballah coordinators with West Bank suicide bomb controllers, and a string of Hizballah and Palestinian terrorist activists in Lebanon. Two Israeli agents reportedly flew into Beirut international airport by commercial flight on false passports three days before the operation. They are believed to have headed for Sidon, replaced a door of the Mahjub brothers’ car with the booby-trapped facsimile. They are said to have flown out again after an Israeli plane over Sidon detonated the planted explosives with an electronic beam.

In a complaint to be lodged with the UN Security Council, Lebanon will accuse Israel of acts of sabotage and violations of its territory. In addition to overflights, Israel will be charged with landing naval commandos on the Lebanese coast* to deliver bomb-making materials, electronic and surveillance devices to ring members.

Lebanese defense minister Elias Murr reported that in a raid of a house in Sidon, security forces discovered a device for flashing to Israeli planes the coordinates for locating targets rigged for explosion, as well communications, surveillance and bomb-making equipment.

When he was captured, the ringleader of one network, Mahmoud Rafeh, a Druze from Hasbaiah in South Lebanon, made a full confession without waiting to be pressed. He led the investigators to the Sidon hideout where his ring had rigged the car door. Rafeh, in his fifties, claimed to have been enlisted in 1989 by Meir Dagan, today director of the Mossad, and described the unusual functions of his network as a logistics-cum-information center, which laid the groundwork for Israeli operations against targeted terrorist operatives. Lebanese agents were never informed of the targets, just ordered to leaving the means of destruction at drop points for Israeli agents to pick up - and then make off.


* Though this is a different incident, Hizbollah TV -Al Manar- initially reported that the current 2 kidnapped soldiers were taken on the Lebanese side of the border. As far as I can tell the reports that they were taken on the Israeli side originated from Israeli press, and the whole world is running with that point of view.

Edit: BTW , I believe the assassinations of these two brothers were blamed on Al Queda at the time ... more specifically Al Zarqawi

[MGD]

115. And how did they do that exactly. What was their "first move"?

They pulled out of Gaza and Hezbollah attacked. That was Israel's first move.

[wordpix2]

146. that is not what I've read, which was that Hezb struck with missiles into

Israel first. Since we don't really know exactly what happened UNLESS WE WERE THERE, let's stop blaming Israel for this whole mess and support those who are trying to STOP THE WAR.

[MGD]

75. The entire basis of your argument rests on the simplistic and

untenable assumption that Israel cast the first stone in this ongoing conflict. What's more, you have damned them if they do and damned them if they don't as you have condemned Israel for kidnapping "Palestinians" in response to "Palestinians" conducting acts of terrorism against Israeli civilians ( appropriate response). Simultaneously, you condemn them for mounting a larger more conventional response to Hezbollah terrorism when their "proportionate" responses have clearly failed. You also ignore the fact that Hezbollah isn't targeting military targets at all but is itself guilty of raining missiles down on high density population centers. Also, you, and others who make these same arguments, conveniently ignore the fact that Hezbollah "human shield" tactics ensure that any Israeli conventional response will end in the deaths of innocent Lebanese civilians.

[underpants]

35. Lebanon

From what I have read the Lebanese have pretty much always been either occupied or just don't seem all that concerned about national defense. This is not to say that that allows for their mistreatment it just appears to me to be that way. Beirut is basically a city-state and as long as they aren't messed with by whomever occupies them they are fine with that.

But since the Lebanese uprising ("Cedar revolution" some call it) they have allowed Hezbollah into the cabinet. Is that just not at least a tacit okay to their doings?

Getting back to what I posted-it seems to me that Israel had a fully developed plan to isolate Hezbollah and then start picking away at it from the air and with artillery. Not a very clean way of doing it but no Israeli commander is going to stick his troops into the middle of Beirut when he doesn't have to. It seems that they are trying to send Hezbollah running (with a push from the Lebanese) out of Lebanon perhaps into Syria where their eye can be focused on both Hezbollah and the Syria leadership.

[charlie]

65. I wonder how you keep

a faction with a militia bigger than your army out of the cabinet if they demand a seat? Either you let them in or go to war and risk losing the whole country to them. It seems to me that it might not have been a tacit okay as much as a rock-and-a-hard-place bargain. Hell, in Iraq, Sadr's goons have seats in the parliament. He's one of the players in the sectarian bloodbath going on. He also declared earlier this year that if the US attacks Iran, his militia will fight the US. Sometimes the best you can do is buy time, in the hope that in a stretch of stability, opportunities or a change in the situation will arise.

[leftchick]

72. "not a very clean way of doing it"???

now that is an understatement! Over 200 innocent Lebanese Killed! Over 600 Wounded! Infrastructure and the Airport Bombed repeatedly? Those are not Hezbollah targets! Damn!

And why the hell are they detroying the Lebanese Army barracks as well? It seems they just want to destroy Lebanon period and Hezbollah was the excuse to do it.

:grr:




Lebanese President Emile Lahoud inspects damaged Lebanese army barracks in east Beirut July 18, 2006. Israeli warplanes battered Lebanon on Tuesday, killing 29 people, and more Hizbollah rockets hit the Israeli city of Haifa, with no sign that diplomacy would halt the week-old conflict any time soon. REUTERS/Dalati Nohra (LEBANON)

This is a residential neighborhood....



A member of the Lebanese civil defense rides his motorcycle amongst rubble, in the suburbs on Beirut, Lebanon, Tuesday, July 18, 2006, after heavy Israeli airstrikes targeted the area. Israeli warplanes struck an army base outside Beirut in a new round of deadly bombings and Hezbollah fired more rockets at northern Israel, killing an Israeli and wounding several others, casting a shadow over a flurry of diplomatic efforts aimed at stemming the escalating violence. (AP Photo/Ben Curtis)

These are frightened displaced Lebanese citizens....



A Lebanese family in a civilian car, decorated with a white flag, flee towards the north of the country, on the outskirts of the southern village of Asmiyeh, Lebanon, Tuesday July 18, 2006. Hundreds of families are fleeing to the north of the country as Israel continues its military operations. (AP Photo/Lefteris Pitarakis)

This is a dead Lebanese little girl aka: collateral damage....



Lebanese Maamar Al-Weiss looks at the body of his niece Sumar, 5, at a morgue in a hospital in Taanayel, in the Bekaa Valley, eastern Lebanon, Tuesday, July 18, 2006, where she died after she suffered shrapnel injuries from an Israeli airstrike on Monday. Israeli warplanes struck an army base outside Beirut in a new round of deadly bombings and Hezbollah fired more rockets at northern Israel, killing an Israeli and wounding several others, casting a shadow over a flurry of diplomatic efforts aimed at stemming the escalating violence. (AP Photo/Samer Husseini)


You should read about western racism Juan Cole speaks of today....

<snip>

Israel's government killed another 42 Lebanese civilians in aggressive airstrikes on targets mostly unrelated to Hizbullah on Monday.

Thousands of innocent Lebanese have been forced from their homes by the bombings, especially in the South, and have headed up to Beirut (which the Israelis are also indiscriminately bombing). Some 100,000 Lebanese have fled to Syria, though Israeli bombing of roads and bridges has not made it easy for them to get out. Although, because of widespread Western racism, very few over here care about these displaced persons, they face a desperate situation. Roads have been bombed out, and bridges are gone. Lebanese television reported on numerous villages bombed. Rescue teams attempting to take an injured woman to a better hospital with more supplies were blocked when they found the bridge destroyed.

If the reports coming out of Lebanon can be believed, the Israelis are only sometimes striking known Hizbullah safe houses or facilities or missile emplacements. A lot of their bombardment appears aimed at punishing civilian populations and forcing them north to Beirut. Such an approach would help explain the high number of civilian casualties. That is, there may be an element of ethnic cleansing in Israeli tactics.

http://www.juancole.com/

[Laotra]

77. Democracy

"But since the Lebanese uprising ("Cedar revolution" some call it) they have allowed Hezbollah into the cabinet."

I think that is called democracy. However, I don't remember seeing any Israel arab cabinet members, wonder why that is...

"Is that just not at least a tacit okay to their doings?"

And when the war criminal Sharon was allowed to be Prime Minister of Israel after he provoked the second intifada and torpedoed the Oslo process, is that just not at least a tacit okay to his doings in Shabra and Shatila etc.?

[underpants]

80. see post #79

I am replying to you hoping that all three of your read that.

Thanks for contributing to my post.

[Recursion]

101. Boy... that's backwards

But since the Lebanese uprising ("Cedar revolution" some call it) they have allowed Hezbollah into the cabinet.

Wow....

I'm speechless.

Is that really how this played over here in the media? (I was in the ME at the time; not sure what the M$M did.)

That's so backwards from what happened I don't know where to start.

The "Cedar Revolution" was anti-Syria and anti-Hezbollah; it was largely Christians, Sunnis, and Druze. Hezbollah organized countermarches -- eventually -- that drove the people off the streets, but their coming into power in the government was definitely not the result of the Cedar revolution. The revolution was being staged against foreign influence in the country, like Hezbollah.

[TankLV]

129. Where have you been when for the past 60 years or so these TERRORISTS have

blown up busses and killed WOMEN & CHILDREN in Israeli cities?

Where was your outrage then?

You've had countless THOUSANDS of times to express outrage then, even a few hundred times in the past year alone!

Frankly I don't give a damn about your or others' selective outrage now.

Israel is completly justified.

They have been taking it and taking it for a long time now.

[eridani]

137. And in retaliation for each one--

--Israel killed 20 Palestinians.

[wtmusic]

2. Fair enough

however, how you go about it is everything. Whenever I see the phrase "sending a clear message" I call bullshit. This is what abusive parents claim when they beat the crap out of their kids, and has little to do with justice.

[ixion]

3. defend itself against what?

where is the massive threat that makes bombing the crap out of Lebanon okay?

Hezbollah kidnapped two -- that is TWO -- Israeli military personnel, and how does Israel respond? In their true over the top, war crimes fashion, by bombing a nation that had nothing to do with the original altercation.

And chimpenfurher, he should be calling for a ceasefire, rather than egging Israel on under the bogus guise of 'defending' themselves. :eyes:

Israel, over the years, has shown that it's nothing more than the US's crazy cousin on crack, IMO.

[Junkdrawer]

4. Can I borrow those glasses....

You know, the ones that block all provocative, greedy actions by Israel. They would simplify my view of the mess considerably. Thanks.

[Cerridwen]

5. Actually, though I wouldn't presume to speak for others, I think

what you're seeing is a lot of hostility towards anyone who uses violence to "solve" political and social issues; even when the violence is in "retaliation."

I, myself am tired of living in a "might-makes-right" kind of a world. I'd like to see all our "leaders" and all "terrorists" learn to "work and play well with others."

Violence, as history has shown us time and time and time and time again, does not solve anything, ever. It may on occasion result in a temporary halt to attrocities, but it has not proven a long term solution for what is wrong in our world.

An armed peace, is war. (who said that?)

[The2ndWheel]

21. Has peace proven a long term solution?

You're not going to get rid of conflict. We live in a top-down world. If the US military didn't span the globe, we'd have more war. Europe may have "learned" from war, but they don't really have to worry too much about their respective militaries since they're of like-mind with the US, so they can play around with more social programs. But if the US wasn't the global empire, what exactly would stop France, England, Germany, Italy, whoever, from trying to do things their way? Same with Japan in Asia. A knowledge of history? Please. People may learn from history, but giant entites who's only purpose is expansion don't. We beat them all militarily over the years, so we get to say how things work.

There will always be war/conflict. The day there isn't, is the day everyone thinks the same way about everything. That may take a while, but I wouldn't put it beyond civilizations(pick any you want) reach to do so. It has pounded untold numbers of people into submission before, so.

[Cerridwen]

34. Name a time when we've had true peace...not the armed

to the teeth kind that says/implies "if you hurt me, I'll hurt you right back."

I didn't say that we wouldn't ever experience a time in which there is no conflict. But, please, do not conflate conflict with war and violence. Humans are not "hard wired" to respond to conflict with violence; if we were, there'd be people bashing the crap out of each other in every single household in every single country on this planet.

I presume most parents here teach their children to "get along" rather than resort to violence in response to conflict. Why do we expect less from world "leaders" than we do our own children?

"We live in a top-down world." And that's just the way it is, get over it? I think not. If I see dirty dishes in my sink, I wash them. If I see dust on the tv, (eventually) I dust it. These rather simplistic examples are just my way of saying, I'm not interested in sitting back and saying "aw, that's just the way it is," "you can't fight city hall," or sitting back and muttering any other platitudes which allow me to disassociate myself from taking responsibility to change what is wrong in the world. Violence to "solve" conflict is wrong. Violence to "preemtively" avoid violence is illogical.

"But if the US wasn't the global empire, what exactly would stop France, England, Germany, Italy, whoever, from trying to do things their way?" Er, perhaps because they've fought wars on their own soil in recent memory (unlike the U.S.) and they know what war can do. And who is to stop us from "doing things our way?" What, you say?! No one should tell us what to do! Damn, maybe we should practice what we preach.

"There will always be war/conflict." Sadly, you are correct. For just as you immediately conflated conflict with violence, so too, do so many of the world's population and its "leaders." And for as long as we sit back and remind ourselves "that's just the way it is," rather than questioning the inevitability, we will continue to live in a violent world and we will all pay the price.

[The2ndWheel]

143. I'm not talking about humans

"Humans are not "hard wired""

States are, not humans.

"And that's just the way it is, get over it? I think not. If I see dirty dishes in my sink, I wash them. If I see dust on the tv, (eventually) I dust it. These rather simplistic examples are just my way of saying, I'm not interested in sitting back and saying "aw, that's just the way it is," "you can't fight city hall," or sitting back and muttering any other platitudes which allow me to disassociate myself from taking responsibility to change what is wrong in the world. Violence to "solve" conflict is wrong. Violence to "preemtively" avoid violence is illogical."

But those dishes keep getting dirty. No matter how much you clean them, they keep getting dirty. No mater how much we try and fix the world, it doesn't work. We try something, we create a new problem. We try and fix that, we create another problem. We never try and fix the top-down structure, but we try and fix the problems created by the top-down structure with institutions created by the top-down structure.

"Er, perhaps because they've fought wars on their own soil in recent memory (unlike the U.S.) and they know what war can do. And who is to stop us from "doing things our way?" What, you say?! No one should tell us what to do! Damn, maybe we should practice what we preach."

I just don't see how fighting war on your own soil does anything. If the US military didn't span the globe, someone else would fill the vaccuum. More tax money in Europe would go to the military. I can't even see how that wouldn't be possible. They happen to live in a world where a government spends half a trillion dollars on its global military force. I'm sure if the leaders of France, Britain, whoever, could bring back their days of empire, they would. The leaders of empire really benefit from it.

"Sadly, you are correct. For just as you immediately conflated conflict with violence, so too, do so many of the world's population and its "leaders." And for as long as we sit back and remind ourselves "that's just the way it is," rather than questioning the inevitability, we will continue to live in a violent world and we will all pay the price."

I'm focusing on states when I talk about conflict. I'm not talking about a fight between brother and sister, husband and wife. I'm talking about conflict when it has the possibility of large scale, industrial, organized force. That's what states and standing armies do.

[Cerridwen]

148. States are comprised of people.

To give them a pass because they are an entity without recognizing they are comprised of people and as such should be held accountable as people, allows this kind of insanity to continue. It's like allowing corporations to get away with murder, which "we" do, because they are treated as some sort of entity unto itself which has no conscience and which is not responsible for its actions. It's the same mindset; paradigm, if you will.

No mater how much we try and fix the world, it doesn't work. We try something, we create a new problem. We try and fix that, we create another problem. We never try and fix the top-down structure, but we try and fix the problems created by the top-down structure with institutions created by the top-down structure.

Exactly. As long as we keep approaching the issue of conflict using the exact same mindset/paradigm as created the problem in the first place, we will continue to see violence as the only way to resolve conflict. Rather than sit back and whine that the dishes will just get dirty again, I'd like to find a new way to approach the issue. Maybe something a la the Jetson's (if you're old enough to remember that cartoon) in which dirty dishes are plopped into a cleaner which spits them out the other end nice and clean with little or no effort on "my" part. The dishes are cleaned without being destroyed. In other words, a new way to approach dirty dishes.

Just as we need a new way, based on a new paradigm, of approaching conflict resolution which includes holding accountable, those people who comprise the state (or the corporation). It's time to think of states (and corporations) as accountable groups of people who are subject to the laws of and for people.

I just don't see how fighting war on your own soil does anything.

Let me explain why I think that may be key to our view the use of violence as conflict resolution. If you, or I, or our respective friends, neighbors and family knew, with no doubt in our minds whatsoever, that when our "leaders" began to investigate the possibility of using violence to resolve conflict, it would mean the potential destruction of our homes, our livelihoods, our community and maybe the death of our loved ones or ourselves, would you, would I, be sitting here typing at a keyboard? Or would we be storming whatever "state" entity existed in our community demanding they resolve the conflict through peaceful and non-destructive, non-violent means? If the violence were coming to your street, would you be sitting back and saying, "Eh, that's just the way it is?" Would any of us?

We "Americans" have developed gout of the conscience due to many decades of going to war rather than having the war fought here in our communities. We've become flabby and lazy in our outrage due to many years of "rich," comfortable living. I think it's time we "hit the gym" and dragged our "leaders" with us, to create a new, healthier, and saner "American" "body" which denies violence a place in our "civilized" world, just as alcohol and overeating are taboo for those who which to avoid episodes of gout.

That's what states and standing armies do.

In the early days of many women's movements, women were told, in essence, "It's a man's world. Get over it." Women didn't "get over it." We questioned, argued and worked for change. Girls now have access to education previously denied them. Women can own property and make contracts in their own name. A wife is no longer (in many places) considered an extension of the husband; a husband is not, now viewed as having ownership of his wife (and children). Women are no longer jailed for speaking in public or for wearing pants. Female teachers can teach though they are married (in most cases). Other examples of not accepting "that's just the way it is" as justification for sitting back and doing nothing or sitting back and accepting the "common knowledge" of the day, include; an end to slavery, 40 hour work weeks, holidays off or paid, vacation time, employee benefits, safe work environments, sewer systems, clean drinking water, and on and on. And many of those "wins" are now being eroded due to an acceptance of the idea that "it's just business," "that's how things are done" and so forth.

When * "won" in 2000, we on the left were told, "* won, get over it." When I was outraged and ready to "hit the streets," many of my liberal friends told me, "* won, there's nothing we can do. That's just the way it is." When I started telling them about election fraud and the FL recount, I got "eh, that could never happen here. You can't fight the system." So, how's that working for you, for us?

I think you and I will not agree on this any time soon. I see systems broken and I start looking for ways to change them or replace them with something other than what was there in the first place. You appear to accept what is broken as "un-fixable." I don't know if there's a middle ground on which we can meet. I wish us both luck and sanity in our lives, regardless of our respective "ways of viewing the world."

Peace

P.S. Sorry this post was so late in coming. DU was giving me fits and I couldn't get in.

[Zhade]

122. "We beat them all militarily over the years, so we get to say..."

Got that out of the PNAC primer for kids, eh?

[The2ndWheel]

142. No, just the way things work

It's kind of the point of war; to acquire more power in the fate of the world. You're saying America doesn't get to tell others how things work? I'm not saying other states listen all the time, but our leaders give it a shot anyway.

[Malikshah]

6. Wow-- be careful of what's on your upper lip. It appears you have

a red moustache.

Taking hostages...hmmm. Countless numbers in Israeli prisons. Guess they're not hostages.

This myopic view does nothing for solving anything but rather continues the grief

[Minnesota Libra]

12. Yes, Israeli prisons have many.........

.....Arabs/Muslims/Hamas/Hezballoh who are suspected of carrying out acts of terror against Israel and they are now paying a price for those acts.

[Lance_Boyle]

24. 'Paying a price' for being suspected?

That's not a justice system.

[Minnesota Libra]

45. Well, when one country/race of people/etc insists on..............

.....carrying out suicidal attacks, bombings, etc inside another country the results are long lasting and are not guaranteed to always be fair, if there's a problem with that then those carrying out the terrorist attacks should have thought about that before hand.

[Lars39]

47. So you're OK with people being held for years without a trial?

[Bretttido]

53. Hmm reminds me of that super awesome place down south... whats it called??

Oh yeah, Guantanamo!

[Minnesota Libra]

68. I'm for stopping the suicide attacks, bombings, ...........

....missile attacks, and other terrorist acts, regardless of how it gets done. That's as easy as it gets, stop the Palestinian/Arab/Muslim/Hamas/Hezballoh/etc suicide attacks, the bombings, the kidnappings, and other terrorist acts.

[Lars39]

82. I imagine quite a few of the attacks are due to the people being

held without a trial.

[Zhade]

124. So you support b*s* policies?

You support torture, "extraordinary rendition", illegal wiretapping/bank-record snooping, the denial of habeas corpus, and the unitary executive theory, then?

Because that's what you get with the "regardless of how it gets done" approach.

And you might want to make your racism against Arabs a little more subtle.

[Spazito]

88. Like the Irgun and Haganah did in Palestine prior to partition?

The bombing of the King David Hotel? Please explain to me how the actions of the Irgun were any different than those of the ones you are describing in your post?

Using those tactics seemed to have worked for the Irgun and the Haganah, the partition was the result, the state of Israel was the result. Why should other "terrorist" groups not think they will get the same?

One should be careful, when defining something, that it does not mirror oneself, imo.

[PaDem]

93. perhaps we can say.......

that the Palestinians have "a right to defend themselves"?

[Zhade]

123. Hey, a question.

Could you possibly make a more racist comment? Your demonization of innocent Arabs as murderers-in-waiting isn't bold enough.

Why not drop the "s-n" phrase while you're at it? It's all that's missing from your post.

[Binka]

141. No Shit!

Hey 4000+ posts in under 5 months looks like somebody has an AGENDA! I have over 100 on ignore after this Israeli debacle. Fuck. Do these people also support what Bush is doing in Iraq?

[Malikshah]

33. Here's a little snip that might shed additional light for those w/ myopia

Since September 2000, more than 573 Palestinian children were killed, 6,000 made homeless and almost 2,000 children were arrested, interrogated, detained or imprisoned.

UPDATED FROM 2006

By Samar Assad



Overview: On 17 April 2006, Palestinians in the Occupied Territory marked Palestinian Prisoners Day with rallies and protests in solidarity with the thousands of Palestinians held in Israeli prisons, an annual commemoration that began 1974. According to the Palestinian Central Bureau of Statistics, there are 9,400 Palestinians currently held in Israeli prisons. The number includes 369 Palestinians who were jailed before the 1993 Oslo Peace Accords, which was meant to start a new chapter in Palestinian-Israeli relations.



The Numbers



According to the Palestinian Central Bureau of Statistics, more than 40,000 Palestinians have been arrested since the start of the September 2000 Al-Aqsa intifada. Currently 9,400 Palestinians remain jailed in 30 prisons throughout Israel.



Of the total number of prisoners, 555 Palestinians (approx. 6 percent) were arrested before the start of the intifada; 186 were arrested after the Oslo Accords but before the intifada; 369 remain in prison since before the 1993 Peace Process. Seven prisoners have spent more than 25 years in jail; 421 have been in jail for more than ten years.



Between February 2005 and March 2006, after the so-called “calm period” was announced, Israel arrested 4,000 Palestinians. During that same period, Israel also detained hundreds of students for several hours or for a few days at checkpoints and detention centers.



Approximately 500 Palestinian women were arrested during the intifada of whom 120 remain in jail. Five of the women are under the age of 18. Sixteen are mothers. The majority of the female prisoners (110) reside in the West Bank. Six are from Jerusalem and four are from the Gaza Strip. Women make up 1.3 percent of the total Palestinian political prisoner population.



The Bureau found that since the start of the intifada, more than 4,000 Palestinian children have been arrested. Currently, 330 children are held by Israel. According to the Bureau, 70 children are ill due to the lack of basic medical attention. The majority (309) of the incarcerated children are from the West Bank. Children make up 3.5 percent of Palestinian political prisoners held by Israel.



According to Israeli military orders, Palestinian children age 16 and older are treated as adults and are tried and sentenced by Israeli military courts as adults. Israeli military orders are applied to Palestinian children, even as juvenile legislation defines Israeli children as age 18 or younger.



Furthermore, Palestinian children receive the same treatment as adult prisoners. They are subject to torture, solitary confinement and/or overcrowded cells. They are deprived of sleep, adequate education, medical treatment, family visits and recreational programs.



Defense for Children International and Save the Children have stated that Palestinian children are being "physically and mentally abused." They confirm Palestinian accusations that children are denied access to their families and legal representation during interrogation and are held in overcrowded and unsanitary conditions.



According to the Mandela Institute for Human Rights, 855 Palestinians are being held in administrative detention. Israeli law allows its military to hold Palestinians under administrative detention for up to six months without charge or trial. Israel routinely renews the detention orders and may do so without limitation, thereby holding Palestinians indefinitely without charge or trial. Mandela has documented 117 Palestinians who are held solitary confinement.



In the 2006 Palestinian legislative election, 13 Palestinian political prisoners were elected to the Palestinian Parliament in absentia. The two most well-known jailed Palestinian lawmakers are Marwan Barghouthi, the popular leader of the Fateh party, and Ahmed Saadat, secretary-general of the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP). In March 2006, Israel kidnapped Saadat from a Palestinian prison under U.S. and British supervision in Jericho and moved him to Israel for a retrial.



According to an official in the Palestinian Ministry of the Interior, there are 80 Palestinian political prisoners in Palestinian jails.

See-- it's real easy to simply search and get more information before spouting off in a state of ignorance.

[Minnesota Libra]

39. One main problem here............

......I got as far as "According to the Palestinian Central Bureau of Statistics....." and that's where you los me. Got any independent sources?? Right now I'm a bit suspicious of Arab/Muslim/etc/etc sources as well as Israeli sources, as well as USA sources.

[Malikshah]

78. Too bad. To live one's life so full of suspicion...what would

Solve that??

Based upon the logic and the wide sweep of sites/info not trusted...it appears that some will only trust...what? Those sites that one agrees with? That *can't* be the case, could it? I don't think so.

In the meantime--

Have fun with these.

Should they not satisfy one's curiosity and show that life is just a bit more complex than the OP allowed for-- enjoy the game of "asking for better information"

OH-- and then enjoy the oblivion.



http://www.btselem.org/english/Administrative_Detention/Statistics.asp

http://www.icrc.org/Web/Eng/siteeng0.nsf/iwpList325/9704F13B172DAD3FC12571AA004F5A9F

http://www.acri.org.il/english-acri/engine/index.asp

http://www.btselem.org/English/index.asp

http://www.dci-pal.org/english/display.cfm?DocId=463&CategoryId=10

http://www.hamoked.org.il/site_search_en.asp?keyword=Prison&x=0&y=0

http://www.humanitarianinfo.org/opt/

[stepnw1f]

7. And I Sense That Some are Trying to Stifle Criticism

of Israel...

[liberalhistorian]

28. And label anyone who dares to

criticize any of Israel's actions as "anti-semitic", thus shutting down any further discussion. And I'm damn sick and tired of it, just like I'm damn sick and tired of our country being joined at the hip with Israel and I'm damn sick and tired of OUR money paying for Israel's weapons, ammunition and military equipment.

[Bretttido]

54. I'm damn sick of it too!

[MikeNearMcChord]

8. Last I checked, Hezbollah is not the

represenative government of Lebanon. I don't have a problem with Israel dealing with the radical militants from Hezbollah. But blowing up Beruit, and killing people who have nothing to do, with those militants, like Maronite Catholics and non-Shia Muslims, Israel is plain wrong.

[Minnesota Libra]

9. Yes, I'd say from the majority of comments at DU that more..........

....than half indeed think "....Israel should have to just sit back and take missiles being lobbed into their country."

Why??

Israel has weapons that can strike back and then some. Of course Israel has nuclear weapons which they aren't using. On the other hand, let an Arab country perfect a delivery system for nuclear weapons and see how quick they get used against Israel. I can only hope we never see that day but I do fear its coming.

[Bretttido]

59. Then you think wrong

No one here is proposing that Israel just sit back and take missiles. If anyone is proposing that, then they're wrong. The majority of us are saying that bombing innocent Lebanese civilians and taking out their civilian infrastructure is WRONG. Saying that is wrong does not mean that the only option left is to sit on your hands. Please stop insulting our collective intelligence with phrases like that.

[Minnesota Libra]

74. If you seem to think I'm wrong in my assessment of...........

......people at DU and if "No one here is proposing that Israel just sit back and take missiles. If anyone is proposing that, then they're wrong." By all means please explain.:shrug:

And if "The majority of us are saying that bombing innocent Lebanese civilians and taking out their civilian infrastructure is WRONG. Saying that is wrong does not mean that the only option left is to sit on your hands." please by all means tell me what "....The majority of us are saying..."is the alternative.

I certainly wouldn't want to be accused of "...insulting our collective intelligence...." by suggesting that if a country tolerates terrorists within their borders that country is responsible for what the terrorists do from inside their borders. So by all means please explain to me what Israel's alternatives are to having military personnel kidnapped, missiles lobbed into one's country, the alternative to having suicide bombers wreak havoc among the CIVILIANS, timed bombs set off in one's country, among other things. Yes, please explain what Israel's alternative is to all that?

For once let's not blame everything on the Israelis and let's not blame everything on the Arabs/??, let's try to be VERY FAIR HERE. Who knows we could settle the whole issue right here and accomplish what the diplomats can't seem to get done. It's worth a try.

[Bretttido]

86. I'll answer your questions (smug comments aside)

if a country tolerates terrorists within their borders that country is responsible for what the terrorists do from inside their borders.

Here in the USA, we "tolerate" republicans as much as we are legally allowed to. As much fun as it would be to go overthrow them through force, that would be both illegal and would undermine our democracy since they were "fairly" elected. If you want to hold ME accountable for what these Republican scum do, then you're making a big mistake. The same goes for Lebanon; you cannot expect them to overthrow a portion of their elected representatives; and you cannot blame their civilians for the actions of the militant wing of Hezbollah.

what (are) Israel's alternatives are to having military personnel kidnapped, missiles lobbed into one's country, the alternative to having suicide bombers wreak havoc among the CIVILIANS, timed bombs set off in one's country, among other things.

There are many alternatives to bombing the civilian and the civilian infrastructure of Lebanon. I will name ONE: Go after those responsible instead of collectively punishing the Lebanese people. Israel has possibly the best intelligence agency in the world and has near perfected precision strikes and stake-outs of terrorists.

For once let's not blame everything on the Israelis and let's not blame everything on the Arabs/??

I never blamed everything on Israel. But for some reason, criticism of Israel is viewed by some as criticism of ONLY Israel and praise for Hezbollah. Criticism of terrorists is redundant and implied. If a man steals a purse from a woman and the police fire 20 rounds into him and I denounce the police, it does NOT mean that I praise the man who stole the purse. I would love for people to understand this distinction but it just doesn't seem to get through.

[Zhade]

125. Do you have ANY sense of history regarding Lebanon?

Of course you don't, or you wouldn't make stupid comments like this:

"if a country tolerates terrorists within their borders that country is responsible for what the terrorists do from inside their borders."

Because, of course, there was this little thing called a CIVIL WAR in Lebanon. Remember that "Cedar Revolution"? It was a movement AWAY from groups like Hezbollah - as evidenced by their paltry holding of 14 seats in the government.

If you knew anything about RECENT history, you'd realize that this statement

"So by all means please explain to me what Israel's alternatives are to having military personnel kidnapped"

shows your lack of knowledge, because IT WASN'T LEBANON THAT KIDNAPPED THE SOLDIERS.

But when one is as racist against Arabs as your posts show, the ignorance of history is easily understood.

(And if, sadly, you are ever killed by terrorists due to the actions of the terroristic U.S. government, the first sentence I quoted should be on your tombstone.)

[peacetalksforall]

10. You forgot the words "this time". It is natural to isolate the last weeks

and the "latest" hostages and raids.

Look at the decades. The umbrella situation was set up by Israel. Knowing that they were not playing fair with Palestinian land, they reigned down the hate on themselves.

With breaks for forced peace by the UN, Carter, and Clinton (or what appeared to be pained peace agreements, paid off or not), Israel has curried favor and money from the U.S. and the mostly right wing administrations have improved on those give aways to Israel over Palestine. We deserve the hate we get. I say we because there is not much difference between the US with the UK and Israel.

Take all that history into account when assessing blame, not just the latest tit for tat.

I am not anti-Semite by any means.
I am not anti-Jew.
I am not anti-Israel.
I am anti-Likud.

I repeat:

Moslem equates with Jew.
Lebanon, Egypt, Jordan equates with Israel.
There are not that many Semites in Israel.
Calling someone anti-Semetic is a poof accusation.
The Semite descendents cross borders and religions,
The Likud Party does not equate with all of Israel.
The right wing of the U.S. partners and connives with the right wing of Israel to the detriment of all citizens in many countries.

We must start from a base of understanding. The above is mine.

[lonestarnot]

11. Thank you Underpants!

[matcom]

13. what about the family kidnapped off a beach in Gaza?

by the Israelies? (June 24th I believe) :shrug:

[Cerridwen]

22. Did you notice...

how so many people "blow past" that little inconvenient fact?

Things that make me go, "hmmmmm."

[K8-EEE]

26. I Had To DO RESEARCH To Even Know That!

The "mommy they started it" thing has been going on for a couple of thousand years....

[K8-EEE]

23. I'm Sick Of The One-Sided Pro-Israel Mindset

It's so "with us or against us" as GWB would say. Thinking people have a right to say: I'm not with any of that, not with Hezbollah OR the "Isreal can do whatever it wants for 'defense.' As long as they make laws and draw lines because of God, the Bible, the Koran or whatever it's just a ridiculous situation, we should stop funneling money into it.

The business about "defending itself" by bombing out the country reminds me of GWBs "defending" us from Saddam. It's the same "logic" and all it does is make things perpetuate.

[underpants]

40. I was pointing out the automatic anti-Israel response here

from what I read and have in the past Israel has never been right about anything and never will. If people are simply against the state of Israel they should just say so.

[Skidmore]

62. Is Israel ever wrong, in your estimation?

Do they never go too far? Do they never assume too much or demand too much from the rest of the world? I saw a list on a thread yesterday listing the number of UN resolutions that Israel has been in violation of over the years and it was a long one. Nothing has been done to address these violations. Israel has also been cited for human rights violations numerous times over the years. And that's okay I guess. We recently destroyed a country for the same reasons. Tell me where is the consistency in our foreign policy? Oh, yeah, I forgot. Israel is a democracy and democracies don't fight one another. Israel has the right to defend itself just like we do, and no other countries are entitled to mount defenses or maintain militaries or weaponry. Like it or not, this is the message being sent to the world. That rules apply only to some and not to others. That there are some that are always above reproach, regardless of circumstances.

[underpants]

63. Yes

Some of what they have done-with complete air superiority- has been wrong but I still think they have the right to respond to Hezbollah and in fact the right to try to take them out completely.

[Skidmore]

67. Do the Iraqis have the right to fight us?

How about the Afghanis? Do they have the right to defend themselves?

[underpants]

83. see post #79

ACtually post #79 doesn't answer that I just wanted to use this opportunity to let people see that.

Okay, do the Afghanis and Iraq's have the right to fight us?

Yes on both accounts but that isn't really the same thing is it? I mean we invaded their countries (I fully supported the Afghan operation) Israel hasn't invaded Hezbollah's country because they don't have one. I don't mean to be smart when I say that but if this were the Lebanese then they would be defending their country. Maybe I am too programmed for nationalism but that is how I am. Hezbollah has no country and they ARE firing into Israel into civilian areas just like the IDF is.

Why is the IDF hitting Lebanese Army barracks? I don't know maybe they are assuming that the Lebanese Army is now under the control of Hezbollah maybe they are telling the Lebanese Army to stay in Beirut and not to go to the South. I have no idea.

[in_cog_ni_to]

133. Iraqis didn't attack us. Al Qaeda did. Remember?

Hezbollah attacked Israel. Hezbollah is responsible for this escalation, not Israel.

[marmar]

90. Most posts about the U.S. government here are anti-U.S. government too...

Does that make most DUers advocates of the elimination of the United States as a state? To be critical of the actions of Israel, the government, is not the same as being against Israel, the people.

[blueraven95]

50. except that Saddam was not a viable threat to the US in any way

Hezbollah, by its actions (both the kidnapping and killing of soldiers on Israeli land and the later attacks on Haifa), apparently is.

[underpants]

41. Killed

they were killed. I forgot that part of the recent story.

Damn so much for solving the ME problem.

[matcom]

57. that's because our media REFUSES to divulge that little tidbit

[in_cog_ni_to]

134. Hamas was rocketing Israel BEFORE that family was killed.

Israel was responding to the rockets that had been lobbed at them. Don't forget the whole story. Israel didn't just wake up that day and decide to go bomb a family on the beach. BTW, do a search. The story is on CNN. The story WAS reported here. You must have been sleeping that day.

[mmonk]

14. Maybe there's a reason.

[mom cat]

15. I think that it is impossible to isolate any ONE episode and then decide

WHO is the culprit. You could just as easily start with the incident just prior to it and call Isreal the culprit ( the kidnapping and dissapearance of the doctor and his brother). To pick any one episode and call it THE EPISODE misses the point that tit for tat hostilities do not make for peace, and serious escalation in the level of hostilities does not make for peace either.

[bloom]

16. I think that this in the New York Times

Sums up one aspect pretty well. The fact is that we all were mostly ignoring, "the Israeli operation in Gaza was into its third week with no tangible results and a mounting one-sided death toll. " - it wasn't until Hezbollah captured a couple people that we even heard about it. And then - of course - the sensationalism of that apparently gave Israel free reign to do whatever they wanted. It was more easy for Israel to say that they are the victims - even as Israel bombs civilians and have killed far more than what Israelis have been killed.


July 16, 2006
War Gives Israeli Leader Political Capital

By STEVEN ERLANGER
JERUSALEM, July 15 — The raid into Israel from southern Lebanon by the Shiite militia group Hezbollah has provided the new government of Prime Minister Ehud Olmert a deeper political consensus, allowing him to prosecute a war that is widely supported by the Israeli people.

Before Hezbollah struck Wednesday, the Israeli operation in Gaza was into its third week with no tangible results and a mounting one-sided death toll. Its stated goals were to free the Israeli soldier captured inside Israel on June 25 in an attack in which two other soldiers were killed, and to stop Qassam rocket fire into Israel. But neither had been accomplished, and international criticism was growing.

So was internal criticism of Mr. Olmert and his inexperienced defense minister, Amir Peretz, the leader of the Labor Party, after the initial surge of solidarity over the soldier’s capture. That act itself was viewed as a humiliation for the army, which had received clear warnings of the plot from domestic intelligence.

Then Hezbollah killed eight Israeli soldiers and captured two. There appeared to be far fewer complications than in Gaza. This was aggression across a United Nations-drawn international border by a well-equipped state-within-a-state supported by Iran and Syria. Even more, the United Nations Security Council had demanded two years ago that Hezbollah be dismantled and replaced on the border by the Lebanese Army.

“The Hezbollah issue helps the Olmert government a lot, because Hezbollah gave them a wonderful option to do something the army was already prepared to do, with a well-constructed operational plan on the shelf,” said Ron Pundak, director general of the Peres Center for Peace and a former Israeli negotiator with the Palestinians.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/16/world/middleeast/16olmert.html?fta=y&pagewanted=print


According to Juan Cole:

"If the reports coming out of Lebanon can be believed, the Israelis are only sometimes striking known Hizbullah safe houses or facilities or missile emplacements. A lot of their bombardment appears aimed at punishing civilian populations and forcing them north to Beirut. Such an approach would help explain the high number of civilian casualties. That is, there may be an element of ethnic cleansing in Israeli tactics."

[OneBlueSky]

17. "if Hezbollah or anyone else tries anything they (Israel) . . .

is going to use that opportunity to end THEM once and for all" . . .

hasn't worked in the past, isn't working now, won't work in the future . . .

Israel has a right to exist and defend herself, but bombing the shit out of neighboring nations will NEVER accomplish these objectives . . . they need some new ways of thinking . . .

[htuttle]

18. I see plenty of hostility on both sides,...

...but I'm also seeing a remarkable blindness to one's own point of view from many here.

I'm always surprised when I read posts like yours that say, "I can't believe that so many on DU (support/hate) Israel!" Personally, I wouldn't even try to guesstimate where the sum total of DU's membership stood on the I/P issue. I know who each side's most vocal backers are, but there is clearly a split, and I haven't a clue what 'most DUers' think about it.

I also don't see very much constructive dialog coming from either side. Neither party seems to listen to the other much, and with a 'blame/counter-blame' chain stretching back for many decades (if not longer), I doubt that a consensus of events, much less culpability, will be reached at this rate. There are 'facts' in question on both sides of the issue, and there are almost no mutually agreed upon sources of valid information to check those facts.

To be honest, it's starting to remind me of the short time I'd spent reading the Indymedia sites in Israel (IIRC, it was during an IDF raid on Jenin several years ago). Dialog devolved to the point where most threads became filled with postings and counter-postings of photoshopped images of either Arial Sharon or Yassir Arafat having sex with barnyard animals (btw, this was also the time when I had the unfortunate experience of being visually introduced to the 'goatse' phenomenon...).

So, in summary, whatever the root of the I/P problem, it ain't gonna be solved here on DU anytime soon...

[EFerrari]

19. How do you "go after Hizbollah" by bombing Beirut?

It would be just like "going after al Qaida" by bombing New Jersey.

It's flat out wrong.

[alcibiades_mystery]

31. Oh, don't you see?

Justification 1) Hezbollah cowards hide among women and children, so we end up killing women and children because of Hezbollah (a species of the "not my fault" argument - he's the guy that made me choose!!!)
Justification 2) Since Israel doesn't deliberately target women and children and other innocent civilians, it doesn't count when they die under Israeli bombs (Needless to say, the paucity of this brand of nonsense is obvious, and when used in concert with argument #1, even contradictory. For if civilian casualties are an inevitability of a particular tactical CHOICE, then it doesn't matter whether they are specifically deliberate, since they end up being generally deliberate by dint of their inevitability; in other words, it's not enough to say "We weren't targetting civilians at THIS house," when it is inevitable that you will hit SOME civilian house if you CHOOSE a particular tactic, like large-scale aerial bombardment).

No need to comment on the astounding sliding-scale ethics of these justifications. They obviously only make sense in the revenge culture that is Israeli foreign policy. No doubt, similar brazen sentiments are to be found among the murderous Hezbollah thugs.

The LAW analogy for Israeli apologist: Suppose a man raped my wife. I am justified - not legally, mind you, but in most minds - in seeking out this guy and taking revenge. Suppose he is even a serial rapist, and endangers the community further. So off I trot to the bar he's known to frequent, loaded pistol in hand. I barge into the moderately crowded bar and take a few shots at him, first while he's standing at the bar, then as he's running for the back door. Blam blam blam. Three innocent bystanders are hit and killed in my attack. Maybe one is even his cousin, and has encouraged his bad behavior for years. (Needless to say, the rapist escapes). Now, most people wouldn't shed a tear for the rapist if I had killed him in the attack, even if they didn't like the method. But really, wouldn't most people also say that I should be held accountable for killing those bystanders, even the cousin? If I turn around and say, Oh well, I didn't DELIBERATELY kill those others, would anyone in their right mind accept that as an excuse? Wasn't I reckless in my approach? Didn't I put numerous people in danger through my tactical CHOICE. And does the rape of my wife justify that, even in the instance of the cousin?

Notice that the key word throughout is CHOICE. The Israeli apologists pretend that their is no CHOICE, or that the CHOICE is essentially Hezbollah's. In most arguments, we are horrified by such a claim (the devil made me do it). But for some reason, in this case, we go along with it happily. There's not a little ideology involved in this gambit, for sure.

[Emit]

38. Bombing "Lebanese army in the hills overlooking Beirut... "

and bombing civilians. This makes no sense whatsoever, IMHO -- not a way to wins the hearts and minds of the Lebanese:

Barracks of the Lebanese army in the hills overlooking Beirut were bombed four times overnight by Israeli jets and rescue efforts were underway. The number of casualties there was unclear. In a similar attack early Monday nine soldiers were killed.

http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=1&categ_id=2&article_id=74055

[smoogatz]

20. I can't speak to the larger issue of hostility to Israel here--

you'd have to do a poll to determine that (not a bad idea, really). But I think Israel's response in this case is over-the-top and unjustifiable. Should innocent Lebanese civilians be killed because of the actions of armed militants on their southern border, over whom they have no control? I mean, how is it possible to justify that?

[rman]

25. Same sort of hostility as there is against the US

It has everything to do with the policies that are being followed.

In the end it is only the US government and the Israeli government who think their actions are justified.

[OregonBlue]

29. So, if a Venezuelan terror group kidnapped 2 American soldiers

and took them into the Columbian jungle along the Venezuela/Columbia border and the United States bombed the hell out of Columbia because there were Venezuelan terror groups there, killing many innocent civilians and destroying the airports, refineries, roads, gas stations, etc., etc., etc., it would be wrong to criticize the United States because we have a right to defend ourselves?

[OregonBlue]

30. So, if a Venezuelan terror group kidnapped 2 American soldiers

and took them into the Columbian jungle along the Venezuela/Columbia border and the United States bombed the hell out of Columbia because there were Venezuelan terror groups there, killing many innocent civilians and destroying the airports, refineries, roads, gas stations, etc., etc., etc., it would be wrong to criticize the United States because we have a right to defend ourselves?

[burythehatchet]

92. And would your analogy hold if the US

was holding 10,000 Columbians without charges?

[rucky]

32. We cant AFFORD a war in the ME right now.

The "HOW" is extremely important in this delicate situation - not to be brushed aside as a simple difference of opinion. The stakes are higher than they've ever been. You've got two sides who don't want peace, and one superpower with an itchy trigger finger.

I'm upset with Israel's ham-fisted response because: 1) they wouldn't have done it without the US's blessing. 2) everybody and their grandma can figure out where this is leading.

[Brazenly Liberal]

42. Pounding a tack with a sledgehammer is not defending yourself

Bombing the crap out of a country whose military might couldn't keep the peace at a Quaker meeting isn't defending yourself.

[Freddie Stubbs]

43. The problem is that many on the far left see Isreal as evil

So whatever they do is wrong.

[KoKo]

52. "Many on far left see Israel as evil....." Can you name some names

of far lefters who see Israel as "evil." Have used that word? If there is some crusader on the far left calling Israel "Evil" I think we would want to know about it.

I have heard criticism from Pat Buchanan on the Right and even Robert Novak on the Right re: Israel's policies but I've never heard them call Israel "evil."

It sure would help when folks make statements like yours if they would give a link or a snip of the statements they say they have heard. :shrug:

[Bridget Burke]

69. I'll wait with you until those details are produced.

But let's not hold our breath.

[wordpix2]

147. United for Peace &Justice lately sends emails to "Stop Israel's War" as if

only Israel is responsible for this war and Hezbollah, with 13,000 missiles aimed at Israel, is an innocent lamb being slaughtered for no reason. The details of these emails are all about Israel's "aggression" with nothing about Hezbollah's amassing so many missiles and shooting them off into Israel.

I told UPJ to stop sending me their one-sided bullshit. If people are truly united for peace and justice, they need to hear and weigh both sides of the story and only then can solutions be found.

[Laotra]

81. The "far left"

See all nation states as "evil". Militaristic sectarian apartheid states ("fascist" states) especially so.

[T Town Jake]

44. You are quite correct, and I don't even think it's...

...a liberal/conservative thing, i.e., I don't think it breaks down along ideological lines. It's simply that events such as we are witnessing brings the anti-semitism out into the open from the true Israel-haters on both sides of the political divide, and Israel is resented and hated by such people no matter WHAT it does.

[Name removed]

48. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[RandomKoolzip]

51. And every Jew that denounces Israel's bellicosity

is "self-loathing," right?

If I thought Idi Amin was a brutal, barbaric dictator, does that mean I think all black people are brutal and barbaric? What if I was black and held those same thoughts about Amin?

I think for most people over the age of 12 or so, Jewish people and the state of Israel are two seperate entities. It sure is convenient for those with persecution complexes to think they're the same thing, since it merely confirms their deeply ingrained paranoiac imaginations.

[K8-EEE]

55. It's Like Calling Iraq War Dissenters "UnAmerican"

You can criticize the government and not its people....there are Isreali dissenters too, they are NOT anti-Isreal, in fact they want it to survive and they know better than to think perpetuating this incredible violence as a "tactic!"

[voter x]

56. Are you talking about Jewish people over the age of 12?

You must be thinking of Jews for Jesus. No, they don't count.

I work at a Jewish school, with tons of kids over 12 who all love Israel with every inch of their soul, and understand that without it, the jewish people are, again,lost.

[RandomKoolzip]

64. Half my family is Jewish.

I have uncles, half-brothers, and nephews and nieces and cousins who are Jewish, I have very close friends who are Jewish, and I love them with every inch of my soul. I also love my mother with every inch of my soul. However, if my mother suddenly went on a killing spree, whether in self-defense or out of some baser emotion, I'd have to start re-evaluating my relationship to her. I'd still love her, but no one and no state is infallible.

[voter x]

61. And a healthy Jewish soul

is free of "persecution complexes?"

Bullshit.
I am not about to give a history lesson, but what the fuck are you saying?

No, we remember everything. Every transgression. It's part of who we are.

[theanarch]

91. "...We Remember EVERYTHING...

...EVERY TRANSGRESSION. It's part of who we are." Kind of reminds me of what used to be said of the Hapsburg Empire: they remembered everything...and learned nothing.

[voter x]

94. holy shit

you really don't know anything about the Jews, then, do you?

Apparently, it works for us, because we have 5600 years of history to show for it.

[theanarch]

96. what a delightfully ignorent...

...thing to say; not to mention presumptuous. My grandparents were all Jews, who coverted to Catholicism early in life, and whose children (my parents and uncles and aunts) became the functional equivalents of agnostics and atheists. I grew up in a community with a very large Jewish population, and know hundreds of them, including their kids, with whom i went to school, and their children as well. I've known Jews whose ancestors settled here following the pogroms of the late 19th C., Jews who survived the Holocost (some honorably, others less so); Jewish GI's who fought in WWII and liberated the camps. I've known right-wing Jews, and left-wing Jews, and non-political Jews; Jews who swear by Israel and Jews who swear at Israel. I've known Jews who were liberal and open-minded; and Jews who were reactionary and racist; as well as Jews who moved to Israel to further the agenda of Zionism, and Jews who left Israel to oppose it. I've been to their birthday parties, Seders, marriages and funerals. If this isn't good enough for you, then the problem is yours, not mine. Otherwise, i stand by my remarks.

[voter x]

104. oh please

I guess I must be the "ignorent" one. Open a Jewish Prayer book sometime.

And by the way, you don't get any fucking points for "knowing" Jewish people, or being related to someone who was once Jewish.

So, then, what is the point of the Passover Seder then?

The hagadah is ALL ABOUT REMEMBERING what befell our ancestors.


One Truth and Not Two
by Uri Zvi Greenberg

(interpreted from Hebrew by Laurence Cramer)

Your Rabbis taught: A land is bought with money
You buy the land and work it with a hoe.
And I say: A land is not bought with money
And with a hoe you also dig and bury the dead.
And I say: A land is conquered with blood.
And only when conquered with blood is hallowed to the people
With the holiness of the blood.
And only one who follows after the cannon in the field,
Thus wins the right to follow after his good plow
On this, the field that was conquered.
And only such a field gives nourishing and healthy bread
And the house which arises on its hill is truly a fortress and a temple,
Because in this field there is honorable blood.
Your Rabbis taught: The messiah will come in future generations:
And Judea will arise without fire and without blood.
It will arise with every tree, with every additional house.
And I say: If your generation will be slow
And will not grasp in its hands and forcibly mold its future
And in fire will not come with the Shield of David
And in blood will not come with its horses saddled -
The Messiah will not come even in a far off generation.
Judea will not arise.
And you will be living slaves to every foreign ruler.
Your houses will be straw for the sparks of every wicked one.
And your trees will be cut down with their ripe fruit.
And a man will react the same as a babe
To the sword of the enemy -
And only your ramblings will remain - yours...
And your statue, an eternal curse.
Your Rabbis taught: There is one truth for the nations:
Blood for blood - but it is not a truth for Jews.
And I say: There is one truth and not two.
As there is one sun and as there are not two Jerusalems.
It was written in the Law of Conquest of Moses and Joshua
Until the last of my kings and my traitors have consumed.
And there will be a day when from the river of Egypt until the Euphrates
And from the sea until the mountain passes of Moav my boys will go up
And they will call my enemies and my haters to the last battle.
And the blood will decide: Who is the only ruler here.

eom. im done with this.

[theanarch]

108. oh, yes, now i see...

...life is nothing more than "might makes right" and "to the victor goes the spoils"? Throw in a little pseudo-Scripture to give it the patina of Heavenly Blessing, and it's off to the Apoclypse we go? You are obviously wasting your time and talents trying to enlighten us, the unclean and unworthy; our secular humanism places us beyond redemption, and you can do no more for us here. Go, go i say, and please your God by wading up to your armpits in the blood of your many enemies, and may you find your spiritual peace in the moral absolutisms of perpetual war. That is, if you don't mind having your enemies shoot more than words at you. It has been an honor, a priviledge, and a pleasure to have been flamed by you.

[voter x]

110. Ouch....

was that what a flame war is about. I must be spending too much time in the lounge. How do you know when you win? Is it the last word, or most impressive cluster of medieval rubbish and insults thrown together in atttempt to insight tears? Where's my hanky?


See ya around, off to see the Dark Star Orchestra and flail rocks at the dirty, twirling hippies....


:pals:

[theanarch]

111. given your expertise in wars...

...i'd have thought you'd recognize one--even a flaming one--when you instigate it. No, i don't know where you've been spending too much time, but given the ADD nature of your non-response, i would hazard the guess it's under something very large, very heavy, and somewhat rock-like. As for "rubbish", mine is definitely NOT medieval...it's the strictly 18th C. Enlightenment ("Age of Reason") sort; while yours, it appears, would be somewhat more antedeluvian in nature. By the way, it's "incite"...not "insight"...and the only tears i was trying to provoke were those of laughter...but as you seem to regard throwing rocks at people inoffensively having a good time as "fun", i can see a more euridite sense of humor is not your cup of napalm.

[voter x]

113. actually

I was kidding. I like hippies.

thanks for straightening me out, though. I guess I am the "ignorent" one.

You are quite versed in GOOGLISM. Keep up the research.

damn, i keep losing that ritalin....

[theanarch]

114. well, you can always ask the hippies...

...for some pot; cheaper, safer, more effective, and it doesn't bloat the profits of Big Pharma...and if you buy domestic, you're supporting the national economy.

[Cybergata]

136. Hey, there is no need to bomb us with rocks, all we want is love,

peace, and good music. What did a Hippie ever do to you to make you want to throw rocks at US, or ME. :hippie:

BTW, you may be joking, but I don't find any humor in what you said, just hostility. You must be loosing the argument....take it out on the hippies, they don't fight back. We believe in peace! You're posts sound hostile, and saying you like hippies doesn't do a thing to change my opinion. I came to this thread because I want to understand both sides. I guess I need to go and find protection from your rocks in my tepee.

[Marie26]

131. I hope not.

The Serbs & Bosnians remembered every transgression too. Look at where it got them.

[Catrina]

118. I think the exact opposite is true! Anyone who cares anything for Israel

must denounce these policies, because this rightwing government has seriously harmed Israel in the eyes of the world. Yesterday there was a peace march in Tel Aviv. I believe those are the people who love Israel. Or are they anti-semitic also?

The Israeli rightwingers do not care for Israel at all, just as the Bush administration cares nothing for the US, and it is up to those who DO love their country to try to stop them from harming it.

There is anti-semitism in the world, and that's all the more reason not to play into it by doing exactly what they want Israel to do. There is Anti-Americanism in the world also, and thanks to Bush et al, those who actually do hate America, have been given fuel for their hatred.

Personally I could never condone this type of vicious attack on people who have done nothing. Nearly 400 civilians are now dead in Lebanon many of them children. How is that going to make Israel safer? How can anyone who cares about Israel support this? Even friends of Israel are now turning away in disgust. Just as those who used to support the US have turned away from us also, as long as there is a brutal government in power.

So, anyone who cares for Israel needs to denounce, along with those good Israelis, the current brutal and failed policies of this far rightwing government.

[blonndee]

120. Bravo.

Very well said.

[DoYouEverWonder]

46. If you were this child's father

would you not try to avenge your daughter's death? Do you have no right to defend you home and your family?

[Clarkie1]

60. If I were that child's father, I would go after those who are responsible.

Hezbollah, Hamas, Syria, Iran...

[DoYouEverWonder]

85. So Israel

has no responsibility? Somehow I think a lot of Muslims might disagree with you.

[Clarkie1]

97. And they would be wrong. nt

[DoYouEverWonder]

98. Everybody is wrong

There is plenty of blame to hand around.

[Clarkie1]

116. No, everybody is not wrong.

Some are right, and some are wrong.

[eridani]

140. Obviously, that they kill 20 Palestinians for every Israeli victim--

--makes them superior.

[ThomCat]

99. That is pure B.S.

The army that has killed the vast majority of civilians has been the Israeli army. They are entirely responsible for every time they target civilians, just like Hamas is responsible when they target civilians. Israel is guilty a whole host of war-crimes, mass violations of the geneva conventions, and violating more UN resolutions than perhaps any other country on earth.

[Clarkie1]

117. They do not target civilians. nt

[DoYouEverWonder]

119. You're kidding?

Of course the Israelis would never target civilians, they can't help it if they drop 500 lb bombs on residential neighborhoods and the civilians didn't get out in time.

[leftchick]

121. that is rummy speak

they target an area and if civilans are killed? So fucking what they are arabs! That is the reality!

:(

[ThomCat]

127. Of course they do. You obviously don't pay

any attention to the news. Israel routinely targets civilians and civilian infrastructure.

[Clarkie1]

58. Excellent Post. Kicked and Recommended.

[Laotra]

70. Vice versa

So, hypothetically speaking, if Lebanon nuked Tel Aviv, you would say Lebanon has right to defend itself?

[Behind the Aegis]

71. Israel nuked someone?!?

Did I miss a news story?! Has Israel even threatened to use nukes?

[Laotra]

84. No, you silly person :)

Hypothetical analogy to reveal possible double standards and/or inconsistency in the logics of the OP.

[ThomCat]

100. The ratio of force is right, though.

Israel is an order of magnatude more powerful than everyone else in the region combined, and they inflict exponentially more damage than they take. So a similar analogy in reverse would be someone nuking Israel.

Of course, Israel really does have nukes. So the analogy doesn't entirely work.

[heidler1]

76. IMO Israel is no better or worse than the various Muslim states that

they are forever fighting with. What I do not like is the fact that the US has officially taken sides favoring the Israelis. It is not an issue of fairness to me it is an issue of shooting ourselves in the foot for showing this favoritism. Just what reward does the US get out of this deal? Common sense diplomacy should cause strong ties to countries that have surplus oil that we can buy at reasonable prices. Is this happening? Hell no. Instead we are going around adding to the hate and fear that causes oil prices to be so high that it is ruining our standard of living. Official support of Israel adds to this.

The only thing about it that makes any sense is the likely global warming issue that appears to dictate that we cut back on oil usage anyway. However, we still have our troops over there dying for what? To me our plan LOL is very conflicted. If securing every drop of reaming crude oil in the world ends up a fools game then Bush's war is even stupider.

[underpants]

79. POST SCRIPT-well I have learned something today...

I was going to fully discuss this with anyone who responding, which you did, but the 2 hour span of DU being down got in the way and I let this thread get away with me.

I stick by what I originally posted (bad writing and organization after further review) and add a response to a PM I got:



Thank you. I have to completely honest and say that I never meant to accuse anyone of being anti-semitic. Not only have I not seen it here on DU (truth be told I too usually stay away from ME threads) I just don't throw that around lightly.

BOY I picked a hell of a day to post that thread huh? I was going to offer responses to some of the posts but then DU went tits-up for what 2 hours and I lost the energy to do it.

I am sure you have had threads or posts that you wished you had done differently. I would on that one but mostly to include a bit of the history of Lebanon meaning that they really don't seem all that interested in national defense-basically Beirut says "keep us out of it we are having too good a time here" as well as stating that I am not giving Israel a pass here at all. I don't think either of those points came across on that post.

The root of the problem here is that some people here on DU need to face the fact that not only is war necessary but it does work and it does send out the "Don't fuck with me" message and innocent people get hurt-I would like us to evolve past that but for right now that is how things are. Even typing what I just did makes me feel like a neo-com/warmonger but we have to keep in mind that military force sometimes is needed.

Lastly (I am going to post this on that thread just to clear up some needed responses to posts there as well as re-doing what I should have posted originally)... Israel has a really bad record on many factors (kidnappings, UN resolution breaking, storming refuge camps, etc.) so I don't side with Israel as a rule. In this instance they have taken what was a situation that did call for a response and they have kicked into a full force move to get rid of Hezbollah or at least to chase into to Syria or Iranian borders where it can be watched.

Make no mistake I think that this whole thing has been organized by Iran to both distract from their Nuclear program issues as well as to show the US and everyone else that they aren't a sitting duck to attack or to keep penned in-they are being proactive and exerting their influence so everyone knows that there is another player in the game.

I'll stop typing now.

[ShortnFiery]

87. IMO, and many others WAR is not ever "NECESSARY."

WAR is terrorism.

WAR kills the innocent.

WAR is evil.

WAR is not ever necessary. :cry:

[EFerrari]

89. And, no, war doesn't "work". n/t

[marmar]

95. Thank you...

As Howard Zinn said:

The television pictures were heart-rending, burning people leaping to their death from the hundredth floor. (... ) Afterwards we saw our politicians on television. I was shocked and paralyzed. The politicians spoke of retribution, revenge and punishment. We are at war, they said. I thought they learned nothing from the history of the twentieth century, from the hundred years of vengeance, war and revenge, absolutely nothing - the hundred years of terrorism and anti-terrorism, the hundred years of violence and counter-violence and the endless cycle of stupidity.

[jonnyblitz]

103. you win the post of the day award!!

:applause: :thumbsup:

[leftchick]

107. war does indeed kill all of the innocents....

Lebanese Maamar Al-Weiss looks at the body of his niece Sumar, 5, at a morgue in a hospital in Taanayel, in the Bekaa Valley, eastern Lebanon, Tuesday, July 18, 2006, where she died after she suffered shrapnel injuries from an Israeli airstrike on Monday. Israeli warplanes struck an army base outside Beirut in a new round of deadly bombings and Hezbollah fired more rockets at northern Israel, killing an Israeli and wounding several others, casting a shadow over a flurry of diplomatic efforts aimed at stemming the escalating violence. (AP Photo/Samer Husseini)

:cry:

[leftchick]

102. well I sure am disappointed.

"The root of the problem here is that some people here on DU need to face the fact that not only is war necessary but it does work and it does send out the "Don't fuck with me" message and innocent people get hurt-I would like us to evolve past that but for right now that is how things are. Even typing what I just did makes me feel like a neo-com/warmonger but we have to keep in mind that military force sometimes is needed."

War is NEVER necessary. Especially in Lebanon, Palestine and Iraq's case. oh poor defenseless Israel!!!! If I hear Israel needs to defend herself one more time I am going to VOMIT! Collective punishment upon a defenseless country isn't even war, it is terrorism. Latest count: 28 Israelis dead, 237 Lebanese Dead and God only knows how many Palestinians. War solves NOTHING!

:puke:

[chimpymustgo]

105. What Israel is doing isn't a necessary war. It's murder and destruction.

It is not DEFENDING itself by destroying Lebanon's infrastructure and killing children and innocents. This action is just SO WRONG and heartbreaking. How could anyone with a heart defend this?

[leftchick]

106. And it is so obvious

even through the fog of our distorted media. There is no excuse. :cry:

[leesa]

109. Everyone acts like it started with the soldiers being captured. It starts

with prisoners, both Palestinian and Lebanese, being held in Israeli prisons for years without trial. So exactly WHAT is Israel defending herself from? Holding prisoners without charges? Murdering Palestinians on a daily basis, sending excursions into Lebanese territory??? This is NOT a defensive action.

[leftchick]

112. thank you leesa!

well said. :)

[in_cog_ni_to]

135. THIS is what they want released. It will NEVER happen.

http://www.cnsnews.com/news/viewstory.asp?Page=%5CForeignBureaus%5Carchive%5C200607%5CINT20060718b.html

[LibertyorDeath]

126. "I sense some hostility toward Israel here"

You'd have to be just this side of retarded not to realize it's

WELL DESERVED!!!

You get what you give their due for some major shit.

Let me know when they stop killing Women and Children
and I'll send a thank you to the IDF.

[Name removed]

128. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Marie26]

132. Spam. nt

[jonnyblitz]

138. you should read it and learn something.

instead of wallowing in ignorance.

[Marie26]

145. Oh, I've read it.

On every single thread in GD.

[norml]

149. I can't really say why I did this, without violating the rules.

I suppose I can say that had it been left alone I wouldn't have felt the need to spread it so widely.

Could be coming home from being out in the heat to not find the article was the reason.

I'll have to work on accelerating the mellowing process upon home arrival.

Though you may differ with the point it's making, it's a good article.

I'm afraid that for now, you'll just have to eat it.



Here's the article...

The P-Word

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/stan-goff/the-pword_b_25144.html

[MadHound]

139. How quaint of you

Simply dismiss the death of innocents on a Gaza beach, dismiss the kidnapping of Palestinian government officials by Israel as "tit for tat and all that". Yet it is these actions that led directly to where we are. Stop buying the spin friend.

And please, please, stop buying into the Bushco spin regarding Syria and Iran. You are foolish if you do, you're playing right into his jingoistic hands. Syria and Iran have been PNAC wet dreams for at least eight years, it is this kind of shit that merely provides the excuse Bush needs to go in and fulfill his dreams of ME hegemony. Don't buy it.

Israel has provoked this matter, and is over-reacting a great deal. Israel has a long history of prisoner exchange and making deals in this sort of situation, so why are they choosing to ratchet up WWIII in this case. Think about it.

[chimpymustgo]

144. Underpants...hello??? Have you gotten a clue yet?

Please read the HuffPo article.

Thanks to leftchick who originally posted this link. It is a MUST READ.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/stan-goff/the-pword_b_251 ...

- snip -

But we seldom hear of this theft, or of the massive theft of Palestinian water. The US press has been so thoroughly intimidated by Zionist publicist/attack dogs, who bait every critic of Israel as an anti-Semite, that they have developed journalistic norms with regard to Palestine-Israel that completely support the Zionist position.

Robin C. Miller's book "The Media's Middle East Rules of Engagement" is a good primer on how this works, listing ten "rules" that are scrupulously followed and giving examples of each.

Rule 1: See the Middle East through Israeli eyes.
Rule 2: Treat American and Israeli governmental statements as hard news.
Rule 3: Ignore the historical context.
Rule 4: Avoid the fundamental legal and moral issues posed by the Israeli occupation.
Rule 5: Suppress or minimize news unfavorable to the Israelis.
Rule 6: Muddy the waters when necessary.
Rule 7: Credit all Israeli claims, even if wholly unfounded.
Rule 8: Doubt all Palestinian assertions, no matter how self-evident.
Rule 9: Condemn only Palestinian violence.
Rule 10: Disparage the international consensus supporting Palestinian rights.

There is an eleventh rule that hovers over all the other rules. Equate anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism. This shuts everyone up. That's why it is so critically important that this Eleventh Rule be challenged loudly and clearly and frequently. Anti-Zionism is NOT anti-Semitism. Zionism is not Judaism. Not all Jews are Zionists, and not all Zionists are Jews. The point is that Zionism raises many questions about what constitutes Jewishness. Israeli Jews are largely secular, so it cannot be called a strictly religious category.

-snip-